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ssang
08-14-2003, 10:00 AM
I thought that this would be a good idea to create a venting post. I wanna know what your favorite...er least favorite Manuel screw ups have been as the Sox manager. This season, last season, it don't matter. I wanna hear it!

My vote is for when he pulled Colon this season agaisnt the Cubs. I have full detail in a different post. But that just made me wanna shake that fragile little man to death!!!!!

Jerko
08-14-2003, 10:08 AM
I have 2:


I still go back to last year, Buehrle/Clemons, Sox up something like 4-1 I think, and he pulls Buehrle because it was the 4th time though the order and "it's difficult getting good hitters out 4 times" or some crap. That game to me was the beginning of the end last year.

Also, the game vs. the Expos. Game tied 1-1, Sox batting, bottom of the 8th, Howry warming in the bullpen. Top of 9th comes around, still tied, and FOULKE takes the mound and warms up out there. Guerrero is leading off. Before I got the words "I hate bringing the closer into a tie game, especially one who admits he sucks in that situation" out of my mouth, one pitch was thrown and it was 2-1 Expos for the win.

RKMeibalane
08-14-2003, 10:19 AM
Jerry Manuel's Worst Decisions:

1. Using Frank Thomas as the designated hitter instead instead of as the first baseman.

2. Admitting publicly that he "likes to tinker even though it usually doesn't work."

3. Tinkering with the lineup for no apparent reason.

4. Pulling starters (Colon, Buehrle) out of games even though they weren't tired.

5. Keeping Royce Clayton in the lineup so he could pursue the dream of reaching .250 for the 2001 season.

6. Moving Jose Valentin to centerfield before 2001.

7. Moving Jose Valentin to third base last season.

8. Benching Magglio Ordonez and Frank Thomas randomly this season, even though both have played well.

9. Allowing Ken Williams to interfere in the clubhouse dispute between Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko.

10. Saying things he doensn't mean, pulling players chains.

11. Sleeping during important games.

12. Using the "Southpaw Wrecking Crew" lineup.

Lip Man 1
08-14-2003, 12:38 PM
To list all the mistakes would require a thousand pages and frankly I don't have that much time.

Lip

Brian26
08-14-2003, 12:42 PM
After a successful 2000 season, beginning 2001 with Julio Ramirez playing centerfield in place of Singleton, moving Jose Valentin out of the shortstop position to platoon in centerfield and at third, cutting down the Milkman's playing time at third, and in turn making Royce an everyday player.

Dadawg_77
08-14-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
I have 2:


I still go back to last year, Buehrle/Clemons, Sox up something like 4-1 I think, and he pulls Buehrle because it was the 4th time though the order and "it's difficult getting good hitters out 4 times" or some crap. That game to me was the beginning of the end last year.

Also, the game vs. the Expos. Game tied 1-1, Sox batting, bottom of the 8th, Howry warming in the bullpen. Top of 9th comes around, still tied, and FOULKE takes the mound and warms up out there. Guerrero is leading off. Before I got the words "I hate bringing the closer into a tie game, especially one who admits he sucks in that situation" out of my mouth, one pitch was thrown and it was 2-1 Expos for the win.

Two things, the fourth time through the line up is a commonly held practice, that you watch your pitcher more carefully fourth time he faces batters. Greg Maddux swears by this theory, as he doesn't face many batter four times.

Second, I was at that game, and Vlad hit a good pitch. Foulke didn't give up a gopher ball. Pitchers even while hitting their spot will lose battles to hitters the caliber of Vlad.

DrCrawdad
08-14-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
After a successful 2000 season, beginning 2001 with Julio Ramirez playing centerfield in place of Singleton, moving Jose Valentin out of the shortstop position to platoon in centerfield and at third, cutting down the Milkman's playing time at third, and in turn making Royce an everyday player.

Julio Ramirez, hot Spring Training cold ever since. Last time I checked Julio was on the Angels AAA team.

Dadawg_77
08-14-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Jerry Manuel's Worst Decisions:

1. Using Frank Thomas as the designated hitter instead instead of as the first baseman.

2. Admitting publicly that he "likes to tinker even though it usually doesn't work."

3. Tinkering with the lineup for no apparent reason.

4. Pulling starters (Colon, Buehrle) out of games even though they weren't tired.

5. Keeping Royce Clayton in the lineup so he could pursue the dream of reaching .250 for the 2001 season.

6. Moving Jose Valentin to centerfield before 2001.

7. Moving Jose Valentin to third base last season.

8. Benching Magglio Ordonez and Frank Thomas randomly this season, even though both have played well.

9. Allowing Ken Williams to interfere in the clubhouse dispute between Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko.

10. Saying things he doensn't mean, pulling players chains.

11. Sleeping during important games.

12. Using the "Southpaw Wrecking Crew" lineup.

Not sure if moving Jose was Jerry's call of Kenny's call, so it is hard to blame him for those moves. And Kenny is his boss, so not sure how much power he has in telling Kenny what to do. Other then that I strongly agree.

Brian26
08-14-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Julio Ramirez, hot Spring Training cold ever since. Last time I checked Julio was on the Angels AAA team.

Yeah, things have even gone downhill since then. He's currently playing short-centerfield for the Lyons Township Tee-Ball Dodgers (8 to 11 year-old league). He went 1 for 4 yesterday.

Jerko
08-14-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Two things, the fourth time through the line up is a commonly held practice, that you watch your pitcher more carefully fourth time he faces batters. Greg Maddux swears by this theory, as he doesn't face many batter four times.

Second, I was at that game, and Vlad hit a good pitch. Foulke didn't give up a gopher ball. Pitchers even while hitting their spot will lose battles to hitters the caliber of Vlad.


There's a difference between watching your pitchers carefully and just taking them out with 3 run leads on a whim. That happened last year, it happened last week. Maddux didn't face many batters four times cause he got everybody out all the time. As for the Foulke game, I never said he made a bad pitch, and I understand Guerrero is a great player, but check out the White Sox record when Foulke was brought into a tie game. They almost always lose, and to put him in that game when he wasn't even the guy that was warming up in the bottom of the 8th was a mistake IMO. Everybody in our section that night said the same thing; Uh oh, here comes Foulke into a tie game, I bet Vlad hits a homer.

Dadawg_77
08-14-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
There's a difference between watching your pitchers carefully and just taking them out with 3 run leads on a whim. That happened last year, it happened last week. Maddux didn't face many batters four times cause he got everybody out all the time. As for the Foulke game, I never said he made a bad pitch, and I understand Guerrero is a great player, but check out the White Sox record when Foulke was brought into a tie game. They almost always lose, and to put him in that game when he wasn't even the guy that was warming up in the bottom of the 8th was a mistake IMO. Everybody in our section that night said the same thing; Uh oh, here comes Foulke into a tie game, I bet Vlad hits a homer.

Probally true about Maddux, I can't remeber the game you are referring, I was just saying the reasoning is somewhat commonly accepted around baseball.

The thing with Foulke in a tie and Sox end up losing it, not sure what weight the stats there hold. Is Foulke coming into a tie the causation of the lose or just a statical anomaly that means absolute nothing. Could it be Foulke needs the mental state of protecting a lead in order to pitch better? Maybe he wasn't warmed up enough? Some variables which should be answered before you blame anything on anyone. Maybe, I don't know Kieth nor his mental state, but I have a tough time making arm chair calls just based on what the stats say in a pretty small sample without collaborating evidence.

Jerko
08-14-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Probally true about Maddux, I can't remeber the game you are referring, I was just saying the reasoning is somewhat commonly accepted around baseball.

The thing with Foulke in a tie and Sox end up losing it, not sure what weight the stats there hold. Is Foulke coming into a tie the causation of the lose or just a statical anomaly that means absolute nothing. Could it be Foulke needs the mental state of protecting a lead in order to pitch better? Maybe he wasn't warmed up enough? Some variables which should be answered before you blame anything on anyone. Maybe, I don't know Kieth nor his mental state, but I have a tough time making arm chair calls just based on what the stats say in a pretty small sample without collaborating evidence.

The game I was talking about vs. the Expos he was not warmed up enough, that's why I blamed it on JM. Howry was warming up when the Sox made the last out of the 8th and in Foulke trotted for the 9th and just warmed up on the mound. Foulke himself in an interview BEFORE the 2002 season started said he didn't know why, but he sucks in tie games. I think you're right about him needing to protect a lead to pitch better though; that seems to be the modern day closer mentality.

Irishlawyer
08-14-2003, 02:08 PM
Sitting the starters on Sundays and specifically, sitting 4 starters on a Sunday against the Mariners coming off of the hottest streak of the season.

Also, making the claim about 1 week into his tenure with the Sox that Carl Everett is "tired".

FoulTerritory
08-14-2003, 02:28 PM
I can't help but think that Manuel's most ridiculous bit of managerial wizardry was when he rested people for days on end leading up to the playoffs in 2000. The last 2 weeks of the 2000 regular season saw a sunday lineup every day of the week. Ghandi said he wanted to rest everyone up for the playoffs, but he completely neglected to consider the risk of making everyone rusty at the plate. I remember going nuts when this was happening, and that was when I still thought he was generally competent.

Of course the result was predictable. Instead of being insync going into the playoffs, they're timing was all messed up from sitting on the bench for two weeks. Three and out ensued.

Huge mistake with ramifications we're still feeling.

Dadawg_77
08-14-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Irishlawyer
Also, making the claim about 1 week into his tenure with the Sox that Carl Everett is "tired".

Actually that might make sence when you consider he was traded. I believe he flew in to join the team for a game, then flew out to gather his things together in Texas then flew back. If he had go and pick out a place to live and those kind of things, I could understand how someone could be tired after that. Now, when he has been on the team for awhile and getting into a grove, he shouldn't be tired.

gosox41
08-14-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
I have 2:


I still go back to last year, Buehrle/Clemons, Sox up something like 4-1 I think, and he pulls Buehrle because it was the 4th time though the order and "it's difficult getting good hitters out 4 times" or some crap. That game to me was the beginning of the end last year.

The very next day he left Jon Garland in to long against the Yanks. No consistency whatsoever. That series was the beginning of the end of the 2002 season.

Bob

gosox41
08-14-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
I can't help but think that Manuel's most ridiculous bit of managerial wizardry was when he rested people for days on end leading up to the playoffs in 2000. The last 2 weeks of the 2000 regular season saw a sunday lineup every day of the week. Ghandi said he wanted to rest everyone up for the playoffs, but he completely neglected to consider the risk of making everyone rusty at the plate. I remember going nuts when this was happening, and that was when I still thought he was generally competent.

Of course the result was predictable. Instead of being insync going into the playoffs, they're timing was all messed up from sitting on the bench for two weeks. Three and out ensued.

Huge mistake with ramifications we're still feeling.

And JM still hasn't learned from his theory of resting everyone. It generally leads to extended slumps like, I don't know, the first half of the 2003 season. The team hit about .245 then. The pitching was phenomenal...great enough that the Sox should have had a 8-10 game lead in the division if the hitters were hitting like they're capable of.

Bob