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View Full Version : What Was Up With Manuel's Lineup Weds. Night


ChiSoxBobette
08-14-2003, 06:17 AM
Can someone tell our overthinking manager that we're in a divisional race. What was up with that lineup last night. I don't understand why he needs to constantly change this team. Especially after the other night when he finally after all this time puts Big Frank back at 1st base and boom Frank responds with a big night even though we lost, the next two games Franks back DH's. I said at the end of last year that Manuel would be the reason this team would'nt win this year, and I'll say it this year the guy will be the reason we won't win the Central Div. He thinks he always has to be involved with this team and I know everyone will say lokk at how well they've done after the all-star break but I'd bet the majority of the wins have been when Jerry Manuel needed to do nothing whenever he has to get involved with making a decision it seem that most of the time he makes the wrong one. As far as changing the lineup everyday someone got to stop this guy. Sometimes I think Jerry looks at a game coming up and decides its a throw away game and he just hopes the crazy lineup he puts out there will come through. Now we put Garland in a position where once again he has to come through big time so we can split a series with a team on the down side and he's not a pitcher I want in that situation.

GO WHITE SOX!

PaleHoseGeorge
08-14-2003, 06:27 AM
Well it's really very simple, Bob. The Sox were playing Anaheim and Aaron Rowand went to school near there. You should know by now that Jerry Manuel has a reason for everything he does.

I think I'm going to spend the next few days with my Sox media guide and Mapquest looking up the hometowns and schools of all our players. This seems like useful information. The guys in the clubhouse would probably appreciate me sending them a copy, too. Who can doubt they're just as puzzled as we are?

All I can say is, thank God Jaime Navarro isn't on the team anymore.

MULTIPLE CHOICE

A.) Liar ------------------> :jerry

B.) Lunatic---------------> :jerry

C.) Incompetent--------> :jerry

D.) All of the above----> :jerry

Paulwny
08-14-2003, 06:42 AM
Why does JM have this need, " I want the players to like me" ?
" Everybody plays" is killing the offense.

ssang
08-14-2003, 06:48 AM
Write it down.....THE WHITE SOX WILL NOT WIN THIS DIVISION. The reason being Jerry "worst manager in MLB history" Manuel. It physically hurts me to see us lose in the weakest divison in baseball with the talent we possess. With an average manager the Sox win 95 games in this division.

MarqSox
08-14-2003, 07:17 AM
Guys, it's getting really old coming here every day and reading this same thread reconstituted. Yeah, our manager makes stupid decisions. Point made.

But just for the record, Tony LaRussa on Sunday benched Pujols, Edmonds and Drew for Miguel Cairo, Orlando Palmeiro and Kerry Robinson.

Paulwny
08-14-2003, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Guys, it's getting really old coming here every day and reading this same thread reconstituted. Yeah, our manager makes stupid decisions. Point made.

But just for the record, Tony LaRussa on Sunday benched Pujols, Edmonds and Drew for Miguel Cairo, Orlando Palmeiro and Kerry Robinson.

If you mean the 8/10, 3-2 Card victory, unless I'm looking at the wrong box score, Pujols played that game.

RKMeibalane
08-14-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Can someone tell our overthinking manager that we're in a divisional race. What was up with that lineup last night. I don't understand why he needs to constantly change this team. Especially after the other night when he finally after all this time puts Big Frank back at 1st base and boom Frank responds with a big night even though we lost, the next two games Franks back DH's.

Actually, Frank was the DH Monday night. Thomas had talked about playing first base more, especially on the road, but Manuel then said that he won't put Frank out there.

gosox41
08-14-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by ssang
Write it down.....THE WHITE SOX WILL NOT WIN THIS DIVISION. The reason being Jerry "worst manager in MLB history" Manuel. It physically hurts me to see us lose in the weakest divison in baseball with the talent we possess. With an average manager the Sox win 95 games in this division.

It's good to see more and more people finally realizing this thinking. JM has killed this team. The fact is until JM went with more consistent line ups in the second half, that the team made it's run. Even now he's not always putting his best line up out there (Frank should be the everyday first baseman.)

As Hal mentioned in his article, JM's tinkering in April/May put the Sox in a big hole. Back in April when people were complaining about a third year of tinkering, most people were saying it's early and not to worry.

Well, right now the Sox are 1 1/2 games out. The talent on this team is much greater then any other team in the AL Central on paper. Even without Roberto and Everett, the Sox are still more talented then the Twins and Royals. The fact that JM mismanaged this team with his constant tinkering in the first half will be the sole reason this team doesn't win the division. If the Sox lose out by 2-3 games, all those who said not to worry in the first half about it being early will be eating their words. Each game counts equally in the schedule and each game should be played to win and not tinkered with.

Thefact that so far this season Rick White, Tom Gordon, Jon Garland, and Jose Valentin have all come out in the papers and questioned JM's managerial style on some level tells you exactly what's wrong with this team.

JM's been better lately, but he is the main person Id blame if this team fails to win the AL Central. Let the team play Jerry. Put your best out there every night and see what happens. If you've done this since May I promise this team would be in first place by 5-10 games right now.

Bob

RKMeibalane
08-14-2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
It's good to see more and more people finally realizing this thinking. JM has killed this team. The fact is until JM went with more consistent line ups in the second half, that the team made it's run. Even now he's not always putting his best line up out there (Frank should be the everyday first baseman.)

As Hal mentioned in his article, JM's tinkering in April/May put the Sox in a big hole. Back in April when people were complaining about a third year of tinkering, most people were saying it's early and not to worry.

Well, right now the Sox are 1 1/2 games out. The talent on this team is much greater then any other team in the AL Central on paper. Even without Roberto and Everett, the Sox are still more talented then the Twins and Royals. The fact that JM mismanaged this team with his constant tinkering in the first half will be the sole reason this team doesn't win the division. If the Sox lose out by 2-3 games, all those who said not to worry in the first half about it being early will be eating their words. Each game counts equally in the schedule and each game should be played to win and not tinkered with.

Thefact that so far this season Rick White, Tom Gordon, Jon Garland, and Jose Valentin have all come out in the papers and questioned JM's managerial style on some level tells you exactly what's wrong with this team.

JM's been better lately, but he is the main person Id blame if this team fails to win the AL Central. Let the team play Jerry. Put your best out there every night and see what happens. If you've done this since May I promise this team would be in first place by 5-10 games right now.

Bob

I agree. The Sox have one of the most talented teams in all of baseball, yet they can't maintain a firm grip on first place. Why is that? Because of Jerry Manuel.

If Manuel made moves that were logical and well thought out, I wouldn't have a problem with him. However, most of his decisions make no sense whatsoever. The Frank situation is the best (or worst) example of this.

As a firstbaseman, Frank Thomas is capable of posting HOF numbers. That is what he did for the first decade of his career. However, Frank hasn't been quite the same since 1998, when he started DH'ing full time. Who made that decision? You guessed it- Jerry Manuel.

Why in the world would anyone not want to have a HOF player in his lineup every day? Frank is a good hitter, capable of providing power and run production as the DH, but he is nowhere near as dangerous when he's not in the field. This affects how the offense performs, which affects how the team plays in a particular game. As the DH. Frank is extremely streaky. He'll hit four home runs one week, but zero the next. That can't be allowed on a team that's trying to win. Manuel needs to realize this. Every baseball mind on planet has figured this out, except Jerry Manuel.

Procol Harum
08-14-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by ssang
The reason being Jerry "worst manager in MLB history" Manuel.

Now come on--you forget the White Sox' very own Terry Bevington. Another genius brought to you by Jerry Reinsdorf.

:reinsy
"I personally screen all my managerial candidates to see if they have as firm a grasp on the game as I, myself, possess."

MarqSox
08-14-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
If you mean the 8/10, 3-2 Card victory, unless I'm looking at the wrong box score, Pujols played that game.

Eh, maybe it was the week before, I dunno. I remember listening to it on the radio, and when they read the lineups I thought Manuel must have gotten traded to St. Louis. But my point is, many managers tinker ... ours just does it way too often.

Mighty4
08-14-2003, 08:41 AM
I am so sick of people coming on here complaining that we talk over and over about Manuel and then they use ONE example of a mistake another manager made to justify three years worth of "gaffes by ghandi". So, Sox fans, the next 35 times Manuel overuses the bullpen or pulls a starter too late or puts in 4 subs at once, IT'S OKAY BECAUSE TONY LA RUSSA DID THAT ONCE TOO! I'm starting to think MarqSox and Jeremyb1 are either the same person or one of them is Manuel himself. At the very least they're related to him.

MarqSox
08-14-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Mighty4
I am so sick of people coming on here complaining that we talk over and over about Manuel and then they use ONE example of a mistake another manager made to justify three years worth of "gaffes by ghandi". So, Sox fans, the next 35 times Manuel overuses the bullpen or pulls a starter too late or puts in 4 subs at once, IT'S OKAY BECAUSE TONY LA RUSSA DID THAT ONCE TOO! I'm starting to think MarqSox and Jeremyb1 are either the same person or one of them is Manuel himself. At the very least they're related to him.

I'm actually Jerry's spiritual reincarnation :D:

Seriously though, I'm not saying Manuel isn't messing up, because he is. It's just that the proverbial horse has been beaten to a puree. There's nothing anyone can add at this point which will make the point any better than it's already been made.

And the only reason I brought up LaRussa is to show that we're not the only ones going through this. It wasn't meant to minimize the stupidity of it.

TornLabrum
08-14-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Guys, it's getting really old coming here every day and reading this same thread reconstituted. Yeah, our manager makes stupid decisions. Point made.

But just for the record, Tony LaRussa on Sunday benched Pujols, Edmonds and Drew for Miguel Cairo, Orlando Palmeiro and Kerry Robinson.

Didn't Drew hurt himself in batting practice? Pulled oblique muscle, I believe.

soxrme
08-14-2003, 09:42 AM
Was Jerry tired from watching 10 guys run around the bases and score Tuesday? The man just infuriates me. :angry: : :angry:

voodoochile
08-14-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I'm actually Jerry's spiritual reincarnation :D:

Seriously though, I'm not saying Manuel isn't messing up, because he is. It's just that the proverbial horse has been beaten to a puree. There's nothing anyone can add at this point which will make the point any better than it's already been made.

And the only reason I brought up LaRussa is to show that we're not the only ones going through this. It wasn't meant to minimize the stupidity of it.

It's not about re-making the same point. It's about blowing off some steam that you can't blow off anywhere else. Think of WSI as an office watercooler. People are lamenting the stupidity of the team's manager and getting rid of their negative feelings...

Mammoo
08-14-2003, 10:18 AM
A friend of mine lives in the Kansas City area and we e-mail each other about the race. I mentioned my chagrin at some of Manuel's "tinkering", specifically last night's line-up. Here was his reply:

I saw that last night. I could not see the lineup tinkering either. When I saw the box score, I was a bit surprised. He is an Idiot. I know that's very mean. I think tonight is a HUGE game for them. With Texas playing their best ball of the season and three on the road with them after today, then both teams again next week at home, The White Sox could implode.

Consider that before the Series, Anaheim has only won 5 games since the All -Star break. Doubt could settle in and kill this team. I still can't believe Loaiza is pitching like he is. How Big League hitters don't adjust to him is perplexing. The first two innings he throws fastballs exclusively, then mixes in some change up but the first pitch is always down the middle and teams keep taking that first pitch. With the Yankees, Red Sox, Royals and Twins in September he might not get away with that again.

Colon is perplexing as well. He should be lights out and he's a .500 pitcher!

Oh well the more they fall, the better for the Royals. Twinkies have lost two of three from Cleveland with a day game today and then three in KC before four next week in Minnesota. Go figure this season. I just have a hunch if the Royals win five of seven or four of seven against the Twins that will sink them. The White Sox after the next 10 days have the brutal part of their schedule ahead of them.

Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Naturally, I don't agree with all his points, but it's cool to see what the other camp is thinking! :smile:

pudge
08-14-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Guys, it's getting really old coming here every day and reading this same thread reconstituted. Yeah, our manager makes stupid decisions. Point made.

But just for the record, Tony LaRussa on Sunday benched Pujols, Edmonds and Drew for Miguel Cairo, Orlando Palmeiro and Kerry Robinson.

I don't think Pujols was benched, and Edmonds and Drew have injury concerns, and even then, I watched that game with a die-hard Cardinals fan, and he was FUMING that LaRussa would bench Edmonds in a pennant race. This Cardinals fan happened to be my father, and he said, "You'd never see this back in the day. Everyone is covering their butts now, it's pathetic." Then I chimed in with a rant about how Manuel always sits guys. I also happen to live in Seattle, and Ichiro, Boone, Cameron RARELY get a day off. Notice the difference in records.

As for coming to this site "getting old", then just don't come here anymore.

Lip Man 1
08-14-2003, 12:36 PM
Paul asks: "Why does JM have this need, " I want the players to like me" ?

Because Jerry Manuel is NOT a leader.

A leader could care less whether he or she is liked. A leader is secure enough with their own core beliefs that they follow what THEY think is best, not what is popular.

Jerry Manuel is a very nice man who does not want to cause controversy or get into disagreements. Nothing wrong with that, the world would be a better place if more folks had the same philosophy HOWEVER that's NOT what you want in the field manager of a highly pressurized, highly compeditive professional sports environment.

Jerry Manuel got the position in the first place because he had a great interview and was highly recommended by Jimmy Leyland.

We all know a lot of people who come across great in an interview situation but when push comes to shove, can't do the job. It also didn't hurt that Manuel was the correct ethnic background and since he never managed anyplace before couldn't demand top dollar. He also would be beholden to the organization that gave him an opportunity.

Like my late dad used to say "you get what you pay for..."

Lip

ChiSoxBobette
08-14-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well it's really very simple, Bob. The Sox were playing Anaheim and Aaron Rowand went to school near there. You should know by now that Jerry Manuel has a reason for everything he does.

I think I'm going to spend the next few days with my Sox media guide and Mapquest looking up the hometowns and schools of all our players. This seems like useful information. The guys in the clubhouse would probably appreciate me sending them a copy, too. Who can doubt they're just as puzzled as we are?

All I can say is, thank God Jaime Navarro isn't on the team anymore.

MULTIPLE CHOICE

A.) Liar ------------------> :jerry

B.) Lunatic---------------> :jerry

C.) Incompetent--------> :jerry

D.) All of the above----> :jerry

I never thought of that I wonder if someone would track that to see if our nutty professor manager actually does things like that. Maybe someone can find a patter. SO THAT WAY I CAN JUST GO RIGHT OVER THE EDGE!

PaleHoseGeorge
08-14-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Because Jerry Manuel is NOT a leader.

A leader could care less whether he or she is liked. A leader is secure enough with their own core beliefs that they follow what THEY think is best, not what is popular.

Jerry Manuel is a very nice man who does not want to cause controversy or get into disagreements....

Actually Lip, I'm beginning to think it is exactly the opposite. It's my belief that the ballplayers have spoken to Jerry in private several times this season. They read the same things he says and can't possibly understand what is going on inside his head either. I seriously doubt ANY of the clubhouse dissension we've heard from Sox ballplayers this past month would ever have reached the public domain if these same ballplayers weren't frustrated from their lack of progress on their concerns with Manuel.

In other words, Manuel is being bull-headed. All the complaints from inside and outside the clubhouse are to be endured, not unlike a Christ figure righteously seeing things through to the bitter end. The only criticism I believe Manuel has any fear of comes from the front office. We hear precious little from Reinsdorf, Williams, et al, to know what role they've played in trimming Jerry's sails since the all-star break.

What you see is what you get with Manuel. The doubtful ballplayers and the booing fans can go to hell.

ChiSoxBobette
08-14-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Mighty4
I am so sick of people coming on here complaining that we talk over and over about Manuel and then they use ONE example of a mistake another manager made to justify three years worth of "gaffes by ghandi". So, Sox fans, the next 35 times Manuel overuses the bullpen or pulls a starter too late or puts in 4 subs at once, IT'S OKAY BECAUSE TONY LA RUSSA DID THAT ONCE TOO! I'm starting to think MarqSox and Jeremyb1 are either the same person or one of them is Manuel himself. At the very least they're related to him.
Yeah but what these people who say that they're sick of us pointing out the things that Jerry does wrong & then give an example of something that another manager did what they don't get is Manuel has been making these same mistakes for 6 years. Like I said whenever the guy has to get involved in a decision where a game is on the line in almost all instances he gets out managed and as far as tinkering with the line up he's got to be nuts to do it now. It's coming down to the nitty gritty and he does'nt keep his best line up out there & what was up with batting Olivio 2nd.

ChiSoxBobette
08-14-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
I never thought of that I wonder if someone would track that to see if our nutty professor manager actually does things like that. Maybe someone can find a patter. SO THAT WAY I CAN JUST GO RIGHT OVER THE EDGE!
Sorry that should have been pattern not patter.

voodoochile
08-14-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Sorry that should have been pattern not patter.

that's why there is an http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/edit.gif button right beside the quote button at the bottom of every post... :D: