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doublem23
08-13-2003, 01:49 AM
... Send Cotts down bandwagon (not that I ever really wanted him to get called up)...

Six walks? 2 1/3 IP?

:chunks

MRKARNO
08-13-2003, 01:54 AM
Cotts showed that he is not ready yet, that's all. send him to AAA where he can face better batters and see how he does. He's not the answer to 2003 5th starter spot, but he might be the answer to the 2005 2nd or 1st starter spot

doublem23
08-13-2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Cotts showed that he is not ready yet, that's all. send him to AAA where he can face better batters and see how he does. He's not the answer to 2003 5th starter spot, but he might be the answer to the 2005 2nd or 1st starter spot

I'm going to go on the record and doubt that (I'm still very wary about his future), but as for now, get him the hell down in AA again. No sense in rushing him.

OEO Magglio
08-13-2003, 02:33 AM
I think Neal should get another shot, obviously he had some trouble with his control tonight, but it was his major league debut, he had to be very nervous and maybe over threw a little bit, he had very high walk totals in aa, but he's not going to walk this many guys most of the time, and then at the very least you keep Danny Wright in the bullpen where he proved tonight he has a lot value.

OEO Magglio
08-13-2003, 02:45 AM
Clearing up my point, I'd rather see Jon Rauch or Jon Adkins or Felix Diaz get a shot at being the 5th starter instead of Cotts, but right now I'd like to see Cotts get another start instead of sticking Wright back in the rotation, the sox need to keep him in the bullpen.

valposoxfan
08-13-2003, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
I'm going to go on the record and doubt that (I'm still very wary about his future), but as for now, get him the hell down in AA again. No sense in rushing him.

You're being a tad too harsh...OK a ton too harsh. It was his first major league outing. I don't understand how you can doubt already that he will be a force in TWO YEARS!!! Come on already. That's a pretty ridiculous claim to make after the first major league outing of this guy's career.

Jurr
08-13-2003, 07:03 AM
Yeah..I bet the first time you got a girl in the sack you were Ron freakin' Jeremy, too!!!!! Saying that this kid is not worthy of being up here despite the fact he was shaking on the mound with nerves has to be the most moronic thing I have seen on this site so far.

Hangar18
08-13-2003, 09:08 AM
Poor Guy looked nervous as heck, and he was throwing all over the place. BUT.........this is the Bigs, this is what he shouldve been working towards, and he needs to take a "Im going to kick everybodys ass" attitude to the mound. He does need some seasoning........ Was it me....or did someone else see some Jamie Moyer in him?

gogosoxgogo
08-13-2003, 09:20 AM
Hey Cotts, I'm not sure what the hell they were teaching you in AA, but in the majors, you're supposed to get the ball over the plate. This guy had no control. Bad idea rushing him to the big leagues, an idea I was opposed against since day 1.

Jerko
08-13-2003, 09:31 AM
I heard Koch is on the DL, we may have to keep Cotts just to keep Wright in the bullpen.

soxtalker
08-13-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Hey Cotts, I'm not sure what the hell they were teaching you in AA, but in the majors, you're supposed to get the ball over the plate. This guy had no control. Bad idea rushing him to the big leagues, an idea I was opposed against since day 1.

I agree that it was rushing him, but I can't see how it does much long-term damage to him. If we tried to keep him up in the big leagues for awhile, that might be a problem. But he got his taste of what it is like. It sounds like he has a bit of a control problem in AA, so maybe this will give him some additional motivation to correct the problem. He might be able to work around it in the minor leagues; in the majors, the other team will make you pay.

For the Sox in the near-term, we got a quality performance out of Wright. Based on Wright's recent performances starting, there's no guarantee that he would have done well if he had started.

harwar
08-13-2003, 10:30 AM
I don't see any reason to get all over the kid just because you were all fired up with unreasonable expectations.Anyone who has been following Neal Cotts at all knew that the guy has had tremendous command & control problems.He was thrown out there because there just wasn't anyone else besides Danny Wright,who,by the way,looked pretty good last night.That being said,Cotts also has tremendous stuff.When he gets to the point where he can put the two together,then we'll have a very good left hander starter.

34 Inch Stick
08-13-2003, 10:42 AM
In my opinion he gets two more starts. After that the 5th starter spot will be skipped again and he can be evaluated. The problem was control and not hits. I expect a little better next time. Again 5 innings giving up 3 runs or less will be acceptable.

kevingrt
08-13-2003, 11:40 AM
I don't think he's ready, but I say you still give him one more chance out on Sunday. This was his first big league start and he probably had huge nerves going into the game. Plus, he showed he could get someone out in the 1st inning by having an almost 1-2-3 inning.

I really think give him one more chance then push him down, if needed

voodoochile
08-13-2003, 11:43 AM
I think that they let him start the next one with a quick hook and Wright as long relief again if necessary. If the same thing happens then Wright gets another chance. He looked great last night. Maybe he just needs to get his confidence back...

gosox41
08-13-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt
I don't think he's ready, but I say you still give him one more chance out on Sunday. This was his first big league start and he probably had huge nerves going into the game. Plus, he showed he could get someone out in the 1st inning by having an almost 1-2-3 inning.

I really think give him one more chance then push him down, if needed

I dont want to see Cotts out there again until he learns some command. 56 BB's in 105 inning is awful.

Remember that in AA baseball minor leguers tend to be more free swingers then in the majors. That probably added to his strike out total, but his walks were still ghih consiering this fact. He is not a major league pitcher...yet. I am a little wary of his future but won't write him off.

Bob

Randar68
08-13-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I dont want to see Cotts out there again until he learns some command. 56 BB's in 105 inning is awful.

Remember that in AA baseball minor leguers tend to be more free swingers then in the majors. That probably added to his strike out total, but his walks were still ghih consiering this fact. He is not a major league pitcher...yet. I am a little wary of his future but won't write him off.

Bob

You guys are clueless.

You think what you saw last night was the way he's been pitching all year?

His mechanics fell apart.

Idiots.

Randar68
08-13-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Clearing up my point, I'd rather see Jon Rauch or Jon Adkins or Felix Diaz get a shot at being the 5th starter instead of Cotts, but right now I'd like to see Cotts get another start instead of sticking Wright back in the rotation, the sox need to keep him in the bullpen.

I'm all for giving Cotts another chance...

1) don't want to send him down on a bad note like that
2) See what he can do without the nerves being so riled-up.

However, if he's healthy, I would much rather see Rauch. When he has been healthy, the only runs he's been giving up have been HR's. (and a medium-deep fly ball at the Cell goes out of Charlotte)

Showed at the end of last year what he is capable of

gosox41
08-13-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You guys are clueless.

You think what you saw last night was the way he's been pitching all year?

His mechanics fell apart.

Idiots.

Maybe he'll take breathing classes from Todd Rizzo. :smile:

What's with the personal attack, are you related to him or something? I'm all for him working out, I just don't see the shock in last night's outing. Maybe I expected a little more then 6 BB in 2 1/3 innings, but I was hoping the sox would get 4-5 innings out of him and that he'd alk no more then 4-5 guys.

Not impressive, either way. maybe if he pitches against a weak hitting team like Detroit he'll get some confidence back. And if he does pitch well against Detroit, then you should feel vindicated. as Cotts has proven himself.

Bob

Randar68
08-13-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Maybe he'll take breathing classes from Todd Rizzo. :smile:

What's with the personal attack, are you related to him or something? I'm all for him working out, I just don't see the shock in last night's outing. Maybe I expected a little more then 6 BB in 2 1/3 innings, but I was hoping the sox would get 4-5 innings out of him and that he'd alk no more then 4-5 guys.

Not impressive, either way. maybe if he pitches against a weak hitting team like Detroit he'll get some confidence back. And if he does pitch well against Detroit, then you should feel vindicated. as Cotts has proven himself.

Bob

Don't worry, as always, a 2 1/3 IP outing in a MLB debut is all the airmchair GM's and Managers need to evaluate a pitcher.

Sorry, it cracks me up. Writing guys off and freaking out over a poor MLB debut. Jesus, get over it.

Randar68
08-13-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
And if he does pitch well against Detroit, then you should feel vindicated. as Cotts has proven himself.

Bob

If he does, you won't see me back here after every inning going "See, see, see!" like Gumshoe does with Jimenez and Rowand every time they get a single or make a halfway decent play in the field.

Just the same, everyone should not be panicing and bashing guys like they are over a major league debut when the guy has done nothing but pitch lights-out all year in AA.

pudge
08-13-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Don't worry, as always, a 2 1/3 IP outing in a MLB debut is all the airmchair GM's and Managers need to evaluate a pitcher.

Sorry, it cracks me up. Writing guys off and freaking out over a poor MLB debut. Jesus, get over it.

I don't think anyone is writing him off, I think people are suggesting it wasn't the best idea to bring someone who had control problems at AA up to the bigs in a pennant race.

The problem is, I'm not sure we had a better option.

doublem23
08-13-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Don't worry, as always, a 2 1/3 IP outing in a MLB debut is all the airmchair GM's and Managers need to evaluate a pitcher.

Sorry, it cracks me up. Writing guys off and freaking out over a poor MLB debut. Jesus, get over it.

You're telling us you have faith that a guy who walked 56 batters in 106 innings at AA is actually the master of pinpoint control?

He's got a chance to be a special pitcher in a few years... There's no sense in rushing him to the show now when its been clear that he's not ready for months.

Randar68
08-13-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
You're telling us you have faith that a guy who walked 56 batters in 106 innings at AA is actually the master of pinpoint control?

He's got a chance to be a special pitcher in a few years... There's no sense in rushing him to the show now when its been clear that he's not ready for months.

Most of his walks are because he tries to paint the corners ALL the time. While that is frustrating, his wildness last night is not in the least bit indicative of his usual control (ie. reason for higher walk totals). He could get his curve withing 3 feet of the plate and he was lost out there.

Give the kid a couple starts. Was doing pretty well until the third. People just don't hit the ball hard off of him. Just needs to let guys hit the ball sometimes and trust his defense.

Honestly, do you care if he walks a guy every 2 innings if opponents hit .170 against him?

doublem23
08-13-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

Honestly, do you care if he walks a guy every 2 innings if opponents hit .170 against him?

If he can do it in the bigs, I'll be fine, but I'm going to assume MLB hitters are a little better than the guys in AA.

I'm totally pulling for Cotts, though. Hope he proves me wrong 100% and settles down and has a spectacular career. I just don't think he's ready yet.

pudge
08-13-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Most of his walks are because he tries to paint the corners ALL the time. While that is frustrating, his wildness last night is not in the least bit indicative of his usual control (ie. reason for higher walk totals). He could get his curve withing 3 feet of the plate and he was lost out there.

Give the kid a couple starts. Was doing pretty well until the third. People just don't hit the ball hard off of him. Just needs to let guys hit the ball sometimes and trust his defense.

Honestly, do you care if he walks a guy every 2 innings if opponents hit .170 against him?

Walks are walks. Either you have the approach of attacking hitters and throwing strikes, or you don't. His 56 walks might not have hurt at AA, but they'll KILL him at the MLB level. He should not be up here right now, plain and simple. But as I said earlier, we don't have much else to choose from.

cornball
08-13-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You guys are clueless.

You think what you saw last night was the way he's been pitching all year?

His mechanics fell apart.

Idiots.

My thoughts are we don't know how good these prospects are until we see them. Reading what someone else thinks about a player, like most do because of unable to see these kids play, is not a true measure.

Having said that, this kid has talent. From what I saw, a two pitch fast ball is deceivingly fast and change) pitcher, his curve.... didn't. He was lucky some of the Angels were swinging at ball four or his walk total would have been worse. Most of the pitches out of the zone were not even close.

I think it is unfair to bring this kid up now, we are in a pennant chase, is he our best chance to win.....experiment with prospects when your out of it or clinched....not now

Unfortunately we are not in this position much to know better.

Randar68
08-13-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by cornball
My thoughts are we don't know how good these prospects are until we see them. Reading what someone else thinks about a player, like most do because of unable to see these kids play, is not a true measure.

Having said that, this kid has talent. From what I saw, a two pitch fast ball is deceivingly fast and change) pitcher, his curve.... didn't. He was lucky some of the Angels were swinging at ball four or his walk total would have been worse. Most of the pitches out of the zone were not even close.

I think it is unfair to bring this kid up now, we are in a pennant chase, is he our best chance to win.....experiment with prospects when your out of it or clinched....not now

Unfortunately we are not in this position much to know better.

He has a good curve, but he was so out of whack he only even tried to throw it 3 or 4 times and they were nowhere near.

Let him get another start under his belt. He'll be fine. He may not be Greg Maddux or Mark Buehrle early on, but he won't be anywhere near the kind of wildness he showed yesterday.

cornball
08-13-2003, 05:54 PM
My thing is, there is a huge difference between MLB hitters and AA. Now is not the time to experiment. If Wright doesn't get out of the jam last night, the out come is different ....possibly.

If we need to go to the pen early tonight, it has consequences for the next few days. If the kid was around the plate....even close, I might feel different. One game in the standings is too much to give up for this experiment at this time.

But i do think he has a future.

cornball
08-13-2003, 05:59 PM
I always respect your opinion Randar and agree with you more times than not, but I just think the urgency with the Angels beat up, we have to take advantage if we can. If the standings were different i would agree.

Lip Man 1
08-13-2003, 09:57 PM
Just wondering Rander68.....

How long have you been a pitching coach and can you please tell us where, since you seem to know so much about all this.

Me thinks you should get your head out of the latest fantasy baseball book and actually watch what happens when inexperienced kids try to pitch and consistently win in the big leagues, under the pressure of a divisional pennant race.

It's not fair to the team or the kid himself.

I'll stop whining now, I've got to go back and observe those baseball arm chair stat geeks who think they know so much.

Lip

Randar68
08-14-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering Rander68.....

How long have you been a pitching coach and can you please tell us where, since you seem to know so much about all this.

Me thinks you should get your head out of the latest fantasy baseball book and actually watch what happens when inexperienced kids try to pitch and consistently win in the big leagues, under the pressure of a divisional pennant race.

It's not fair to the team or the kid himself.

I'll stop whining now, I've got to go back and observe those baseball arm chair stat geeks who think they know so much.

Lip


*****. Ride your high and mighty horse of negativity back to the Idaho school bofunk journalism you came in on. I don't judge talent based off a stat sheet or some "baseball prospectus' latest equations for prospects" like many here feel is the ultimate judge of prospects. Physical abilities, in the case of pitchers, mental as well. Arm angles, efforts, leg drive, history of injuries or track record (throwing sliders at young ages, etc.).

I'm sorry this is all way over your head Lip, because 99% of the time you're clueless anyways. Guess I'm just wasting my time.



What options were there, folks? You'd all be crying and whining if Wright had made the start, and the fact that we've been right around .500 with the 5th starter this year has eluded Mr. Journalism.

Kenny Rogers, I know Lip, *****. Chuck Finley still breathing somewhere?

No matter what decision is made, some here just whine and cry and whine again, then bash the young players, the management without any option at this point, and the everyone else within spitting difference.

BTW Lip, when have you ever been concerned with fairness, because you have been anything but fair to many players at many different times?

You're such a hypocrite.


We lost in this series with Colon and Buehrle on the mound and you're all bitchin about Cotts' start.

There are bigger problems, folks.

gosox41
08-14-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****. Ride your high and mighty horse of negativity back to the Idaho school bofunk journalism you came in on. I don't judge talent based off a stat sheet or some "baseball prospectus' latest equations for prospects" like many here feel is the ultimate judge of prospects. Physical abilities, in the case of pitchers, mental as well. Arm angles, efforts, leg drive, history of injuries or track record (throwing sliders at young ages, etc.).

I'm sorry this is all way over your head Lip, because 99% of the time you're clueless anyways. Guess I'm just wasting my time.



What options were there, folks? You'd all be crying and whining if Wright had made the start, and the fact that we've been right around .500 with the 5th starter this year has eluded Mr. Journalism.

Kenny Rogers, I know Lip, *****. Chuck Finley still breathing somewhere?

No matter what decision is made, some here just whine and cry and whine again, then bash the young players, the management without any option at this point, and the everyone else within spitting difference.

BTW Lip, when have you ever been concerned with fairness, because you have been anything but fair to many players at many different times?

You're such a hypocrite.


We lost in this series with Colon and Buehrle on the mound and you're all bitchin about Cotts' start.

There are bigger problems, folks.

We'll see how Cotts does his next start. I think he lacks command right now. Not to say he may not be decent in a couple of years, but definitely not ready right now.

Also, what's with the personal attacks. Me and Lip. Why resort to name calling? It doesn't help your credibility any.

Lastly, the Sox may have lost the games that Colon and Buehrle started, but they didn't necessarily lose because of them. Cotts had a worse outing then either of the two.

Bob

Lip Man 1
08-15-2003, 01:35 AM
I find it interesting that to people of Randar's intelligence level, I suck because I don't work in a major market (Even though I did work in Lexington, Kentucky which is top 50)

So if I was working in Chicago, I guess my opinions would be of more value to people of Randar's intelligence level...

Except that to people of Randar's intelligence level, most of Chicago's sports media sucks as well. Interesting paradox.

I guess the moral of the story is that unless you think like Randar you suck.

All I can say is thank God Randar hasn't been breeding. The world is a much safer place.

Just put me on your ignore list Rander and go back to your fantasy leagues.

Lip