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balboner
08-12-2003, 01:22 AM
Plain and simple, the Sox can't compete with this current bullpen. We have only two reliables in Marte and Gordon, and it's not like Flash didnt get shelled his last outing. W/Koch, Wright, and Schoeneweis, we have 3 guys that don't deserve to be in a tight game. KW needs to do something about this now.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2003, 01:26 AM
Jose Paniagua isn't good enough? With Wright I really think that eventually Manuel is going to need to give him a shot, and see what he can do because he might just be a solid pitcher out of the pen, and also I believe you can call Wunsch reliable, he's earned my confidence.

FJA
08-12-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by balboner
Plain and simple, the Sox can't compete with this current bullpen. We have only two reliables in Marte and Gordon, and it's not like Flash didnt get shelled his last outing. W/Koch, Wright, and Schoeneweis, we have 3 guys that don't deserve to be in a tight game. KW needs to do something about this now.

I'm going to hold off judgement on Wright the reliever. A lot of mediocre to bad starters have become good relievers, and we haven't seen enough to say he doesn't deserve to be in.

fuzzy_patters
08-12-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by balboner
Plain and simple, the Sox can't compete with this current bullpen. We have only two reliables in Marte and Gordon, and it's not like Flash didnt get shelled his last outing. W/Koch, Wright, and Schoeneweis, we have 3 guys that don't deserve to be in a tight game. KW needs to do something about this now.

I agree. I am normally very positive, and I usually try to find the bright side in the Sox players and coaches. However, the Sox bullpen blows. I don't understand how the Sox expect to win the division, let alone the World Series, with this bullpen. Anaheim won last year without having a NY sized payroll, and they did it with their bullpen. Meanwhile, we are trying to do it with Marte, Gordon, and not a whole lot else. Aren't there any starters in the minors that could come up and gain some experience pitching in relief? That's what most teams would do, but the Sox seem willing to stand pat.

Mots09
08-12-2003, 01:44 AM
Kelly Wunsch has been a ROCK coming out of the pen.


GO SOX GO

fuzzy_patters
08-12-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by FJA
I'm going to hold off judgement on Wright the reliever. A lot of mediocre to bad starters have become good relievers, and we haven't seen enough to say he doesn't deserve to be in.

Good point. Eric Gagne was a lousy starter, and now he is an unhittable reliever.

fuzzy_patters
08-12-2003, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Mots09
Kelly Wunsch has been a ROCK coming out of the pen.


GO SOX GO

You are correct. It is easy to forget about Wunsch since he spent so long on the DL, but he has been very good.

Lip Man 1
08-12-2003, 01:47 AM
But the Sox could afford to give away Rick White out of spite. Dumb, dumb move as well as not picjing up any relief pitchers at the trade deadline.

It'll come back and kill us...everytime the Sox start to cut corners it always does.

Lip

fuzzy_patters
08-12-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
But the Sox could afford to give away Rick White out of spite. Dumb, dumb move as well as not picjing up any relief pitchers at the trade deadline.

It'll come back and kill us...everytime the Sox start to cut corners it always does.

Lip

Your point would be more valid if White had been pitching well. However, he was just one more lousy pitcher in a lousy bullpen.

FJA
08-12-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
But the Sox could afford to give away Rick White out of spite. Dumb, dumb move as well as not picjing up any relief pitchers at the trade deadline.

It'll come back and kill us...everytime the Sox start to cut corners it always does.

Lip

I thought getting rid of Rick White was a great move when I was sure it would be followed by picking up another reliever. To get rid of Rick White without going out and getting someone else to replace him (experience and all) was dumb, dumb, dumb.

MHOUSE
08-12-2003, 02:03 AM
White sucked. The problem is that Schoenweiss, his replacement, has sucked as well. I honestly would rather have Glover out there. He gets the job done in middle relief. He's no Brendan Donnelly or Ugie Uribina, but hes decent. Wunsch, Marte, and +/- Flash are the only "reliables". Wright is still a ? and I hope he gets a chance to show his stuff sometime. Honestly though, there wasn't much avaible at the deadline. Leskanic, Levine, Lloyd, etc. all ended up in KC and none of them are anything great or even much of an upgrade.

OEO Magglio
08-12-2003, 02:20 AM
Remember before the season started this bullpen was suppost to be very very solid, on paper it seemed like this was going to be a strong point for the sox, but to many times the sox have been good on paper and not performed up to expectations, but it's unreal that the bullpen has become such a liability, two of the three acquisitions in the pen just didn't work out.

Lip Man 1
08-12-2003, 02:21 AM
To one and all:

RICK WHITE'S ERA IN JUNE AND JULY WAS 3.25.

That sucks????

When you pitch as few innings as relief pitchers do it only takes a handful of bad outings to balloon up the ERA.

White had a bunch of good outings. As bad as the Sox bullpen has been it was absolutelt assinine to just let him walk without getting ANYTHING even a Class A prospect in return.

The move was made out of spite pure and simple. The hell with trying to win, by God, we're going to show the players who's boss!

Lip

harwar
08-12-2003, 09:07 AM
Rick White was only released because he really pissed someone off.I'm thinking that he must have had words with KW because it just didn't make sense to release a guy(even if he's a jerk)when we desperately need bullpen help.Like lip said he was good for weeks and was in a bad stretch.
I also thought that they gave up on Glover too soon.He was in somebodys' doghouse just languishing in the pen out there.
One thing is for sure,without a good bullpen you just can't do well in the playoffs(assuming we make it there)unless you have maybe Johnson & Schilling.
Oh well,at least ol Billy boy Koch isn't the worst pitcher in the world anymore(see Scott Schoeneweiss).

TornLabrum
08-12-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
To one and all:

RICK WHITE'S ERA IN JUNE AND JULY WAS 3.25.

That sucks????

When you pitch as few innings as relief pitchers do it only takes a handful of bad outings to balloon up the ERA.

White had a bunch of good outings. As bad as the Sox bullpen has been it was absolutelt assinine to just let him walk without getting ANYTHING even a Class A prospect in return.

The move was made out of spite pure and simple. The hell with trying to win, by God, we're going to show the players who's boss!

Lip

But Lip, you're forgetting that he had that bad outing when Manuel left him in for a third inning and then that horrible outing after he complained to the media. What did he do for us lately?

SoxxoS
08-12-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1 To one and all:
RICK WHITE'S ERA IN JUNE AND JULY WAS 3.25.Lip

True...AND HIS ERA IS STILL OVER 6...What does that tell you?

xil357
08-12-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Remember before the season started this bullpen was suppost to be very very solid, on paper it seemed like this was going to be a strong point for the sox, but to many times the sox have been good on paper and not performed up to expectations, but it's unreal that the bullpen has become such a liability, two of the three acquisitions in the pen just didn't work out.

Anytime a team tries to tell you that its bullpen is going to be a strength, WATCH OUT. Bullpens, because they are made up of second- and third-rate pitchers (closers are converted starters would couldn't cut it as starters), are inherently unpredictable. I am not saying that then pen is not important. But the best way to build a pen is to strengthen your starting rotation so you can move former starters (who have limited arsenals) into the pen for long relief and middle relief duties. The rotation is going to make or break the pen. When the pen is overused because the #5 spot is such a gaping hole, and at any given time this year at least one among Garland, Buehrle and Colon have been erratic, the pen gets overexposed. At any given time the Sox have had only three effective starters this season. So now, here we are, hoping to add a waiver-wire castoff to shore up the pen.

The pitching staff is still hurting from the trades for Billy Koch and Todd Ritchie. I'm surprised the Sox have recovered as well as they have from these deals.

How much different would things be with Kip Wells as the #4, Keith Foulke closing and one or two among Josh Fogg, Rocky Biddle and Sean Lowe for long and middle relief?

Hangar18
08-12-2003, 09:43 AM
Kenny Williams did a good job in trading for Schoenweis.
Great Concept, but the guy gets here and he is freaking
Awful. Hes becoming another guy in the BP that we CANT
use in tight games. dammmit

SoxxoS
08-12-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Kenny Williams did a good job in trading for Schoenweis.
Great Concept, but the guy gets here and he is freaking
Awful. Hes becoming another guy in the BP that we CANT
use in tight games. dammmit

I'll excuse the outing Monday against the Royals under the theory everyone pitches bad once in a while.

I'll excuse last nites "effort" because it was his old team and you never know if they know something about their ex-teammate.

No more excuses after Anaheim.

kempsted
08-12-2003, 10:08 AM
I agree that the Sox pen has not been a strength of late. But it is still a bullpen with an ERA of 4.37 9th in the AL. From 6/4 through 7/25 ( almost two months) the bullpen ERA was 2.95. Now if you leave Wright in the bullpen you may have the dependable list being Marte, Gordon, Wunsch and Wright. (I know I know Wright sucks yadada dada). Schoenweiss I think can still be OK but he will never be used again by Jerry. If he is burned unless the name is Koch you never see the light of day again. Our bullpen is still better than KC and Minnesota. Last night was mostly a story of wasted opps on offense. The bullpen problem (with one pitcher) and Colon not being at his best were footnotes. It never would have mattered if we could have scored a couple of runs in our 3 bases loaded one out situations.

SoxxoS
08-12-2003, 10:13 AM
Just thinking out loud...but Koch really f'd this whole thing up.

The Astros, for example, have the best 7,8,9 bullpen in baseball.

If Koch was pitching like he was supposed too...a Gordon, Marte, Koch bullpen with Wunsch as a lefty specialist would be awesome. Plus, with our starters, most of them will give you 7 innings, so you can alternate the set-up men between Gordon and Marte.

Very frustrating.

Mammoo
08-12-2003, 10:18 AM
Eight runs should be enough to win the vast majority of your games. This is the second time Schoeneweis crapped down his pant leg; another game that should have been a win. The division is going down to the last weekend so blown games like this are critical. :angry: