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View Full Version : Konerko's D is killing us..


Tragg
08-09-2003, 11:54 PM
It's never been good, but it's getting worriesome.
Tonight, it leads to 3 first inning runs.
On Monday, he booted a ball (but got a favorable scorers call) that led to 2 or 3 runs. That was one of several things that happened that cost us the game (pulling Garland, Credes error being 2 of the others).
Our last 2 losses were due, at least in part, to his fielding gaffes.
And while on the subject of first basemen, when did Frank start striking out so much, especially with the bags loaded?

SaltyPretzel
08-10-2003, 12:33 AM
Although he's not a gold glover, I can't really complain too much about Paulie's D. I think he only had one error going into tonight, sans favorable calls from the home official scorer. Who else would you rather see out there?

kempsted
08-10-2003, 01:08 AM
Frank. He hits better at first and is no worse than Paulie at First

RKMeibalane
08-10-2003, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
Frank. He hits better at first and is no worse than Paulie at First

:jerry

"I can't play Frank at first because... he doesn't hit as well? No, that's not it. I know! He can't play first because it affects the distribution of runs batted in. I can't have Frank driving in all of our runs. They need to be spread out equally amongst three or four guys."

:ohno

"Good lord, he's an idiot."

:hurt

"I'm a future Hall of Famer, yet I don't get to play the position where I'm most effective."

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/darth.jpg

"The situation shall be deat with shortly."

SaltyPretzel
08-10-2003, 05:54 AM
I'd have to respectfully disagree. When was the last time you have seen Frank turn a 3-6-3 double play? He doesn't have the mobility. The only player that has to show mobility in these situations is Carlos in left field backing up Frank's errant throw.

RKMeibalane
08-10-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
I'd have to respectfully disagree. When was the last time you have seen Frank turn a 3-6-3 double play? He doesn't have the mobility. The only player that has to show mobility in these situations is Carlos in left field backing up Frank's errant throw.

In twenty seven games at first base this season, Frank has made one error. Konerko has made at least three over the past week alone. Besides, first base has always been an offensive position, and Frank more than makes up for his defensive shortcomings with increased production at the plate. Manuel must not have been paying attention in June when Frank was tearing up the league.

:jerry

"Zzzzzzz...."

SaltyPretzel
08-10-2003, 06:28 AM
Does anyone have Frank's hittings stats as a 1st baseman vs. DH the last couple of seasons?

TornLabrum
08-10-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
In twenty seven games at first base this season, Frank has made one error. Konerko has made at least three over the past week alone. Besides, first base has always been an offensive position, and Frank more than makes up for his defensive shortcomings with increased production at the plate. Manuel must not have been paying attention in June when Frank was tearing up the league.

:jerry

"Zzzzzzz...."

The problem is that all but one of the errors this week were scored as hits because Paul said, "Ole!"

PaleHoseGeorge
08-10-2003, 10:16 AM
My God, we're going to pick who plays first base based on the 3-6-3 double-play?

I stand corrected. Frank's extra 100 points of OPS is negated by Konerko's once/month use of his throwing arm. :smile:

voodoochile
08-10-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
My God, we're going to pick who plays first base based on the 3-6-3 double-play?

I stand corrected. Frank's extra 100 points of OPS is negated by Konerko's once/month use of his throwing arm. :smile:

THANK YOU!

RKMeibalane
08-10-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
THANK YOU!

I really couldn't have said better myself. Why are people so worried about Frank's defense? When he plays first base, he is a more effective hitter at the plate. That translates into more hits and more runs for the Chicago White Sox. As I said in an earlier post, Frank more than makes up for any defensive shortcomings with his increased production at the plate.

The same is true of first baseman in general. I'm going to list some names of prominent first baseman, both current and past. Some of these men were excellent fielding first baseman, but all of them were around primarilly for their offense:

1. Jeff Bagwell
2. Rafael Palmeiro
3. Carlos Delgado
4. Don Mattingly
5. Will Clark
6. Mark McGwire
7. Kent Hrbek
8. Jason Giambi
9. Cecil Fielder
10. Mark Grace

Do I need to go on? Each of these men is or will be remembered for his offense. That's the type of position that first base is. End of story.

Soxboyrob
08-10-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
My God, we're going to pick who plays first base based on the 3-6-3 double-play?

I stand corrected. Frank's extra 100 points of OPS is negated by Konerko's once/month use of his throwing arm. :smile:

Is it really just 100? I was thinking closer to 150-200. My thinking remains to be....Frank's a HOF hitter when playing first base and not even an all star hitter when DH'ing. That's all I need to know before I insert him into the defense.

RKMeibalane
08-10-2003, 04:45 PM
:firejerry

If Manuel is gone after this season, I can almost guarantee that the next Sox manager will have Frank at first more often.

voodoochile
08-10-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
:firejerry

If Manuel is gone after this season, I can almost guarantee that the next Sox manager will have Frank at first more often.

How can it be less?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-10-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Is it really just 100? I was thinking closer to 150-200. My thinking remains to be....Frank's a HOF hitter when playing first base and not even an all star hitter when DH'ing. That's all I need to know before I insert him into the defense.

Without looking it up, I was deliberately being conservative. It's too easy to get into fights around here.

:)

RKMeibalane
08-10-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Without looking it up, I was deliberately being conservative. It's too easy to get into fights around here.

:)

Don't worry. The Fans of Frank Thomas have your back. :D:

Daver
08-10-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
It's too easy to get into fights around here.




Surely you jest.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-10-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by daver
Surely you jest.

That's why I always carry my boxing gloves. :smile:

gosox41
08-11-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
I'd have to respectfully disagree. When was the last time you have seen Frank turn a 3-6-3 double play? He doesn't have the mobility. The only player that has to show mobility in these situations is Carlos in left field backing up Frank's errant throw.

How many 3-6-3 DP's do the Sox have this year? How much would Frank's bat help us if he continues to hit 100 points higher as a 1B then as a DH>

I'm betting the 100 point difference in batting average leads to more runs being scored then the number of 3-6-3 DP's Frank muffs.

Bob

Tragg
08-11-2003, 11:11 AM
Maybe Konerko can get hot for the last 6 weeks, then we can trade him after we win the WS.
Move ex3rd sacker C Lee to first (he should be able to play it) to play that and DH with Frank, Everett to LF if we can afford him (his next contract can't be that much) and find a CF, which we've needed to do for a long, long, long time.

akingamongstmen
08-11-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I really couldn't have said better myself. Why are people so worried about Frank's defense? When he plays first base, he is a more effective hitter at the plate. That translates into more hits and more runs for the Chicago White Sox. As I said in an earlier post, Frank more than makes up for any defensive shortcomings with his increased production at the plate.

The same is true of first baseman in general. I'm going to list some names of prominent first baseman, both current and past. Some of these men were excellent fielding first baseman, but all of them were around primarilly for their offense:

1. Jeff Bagwell
2. Rafael Palmeiro
3. Carlos Delgado
4. Don Mattingly
5. Will Clark
6. Mark McGwire
7. Kent Hrbek
8. Jason Giambi
9. Cecil Fielder
10. Mark Grace

Do I need to go on? Each of these men is or will be remembered for his offense. That's the type of position that first base is. End of story.


I'm gonna have to disagree with two of those guys. #10) Grace had quite a few hits, but a lot of them were grenades just over the second baseman's out-stretched glove. #7) Kent Hrbek will mostly be remembered because his last name was "Hrbek." Other than that, you hit the nail on the head.

Jerko
08-11-2003, 01:23 PM
From Chisox.com


http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030810&content_id=474313&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha[/URL]

PaleHoseGeorge
08-11-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
From Chisox.com


http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030810&content_id=474313&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha[/URL]

Having nearly a day to puzzle this one through, I'm thinking this is yet another example of Manuel suffering from acute mental confusion. It was just last week he told Teddy in the Cubune that he couldn't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Thomas back at first base. Presto, Chango! Frank is at first base vs. Anaheim. Go figure...

:jerry
"I'm tired of pulling Frank's chain. Now I'm going to pull Konerko's."

This guy's antics are truly indefensible.

jabrch
08-11-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
It's never been good, but it's getting worriesome.
Tonight, it leads to 3 first inning runs.
On Monday, he booted a ball (but got a favorable scorers call) that led to 2 or 3 runs. That was one of several things that happened that cost us the game (pulling Garland, Credes error being 2 of the others).
Our last 2 losses were due, at least in part, to his fielding gaffes.
And while on the subject of first basemen, when did Frank start striking out so much, especially with the bags loaded?

When he said he would stop going opposite field and just focus on pulling the ball. Might jack his HR/RBI totals a bit, but teams don't want a .260 hitting DH. Frank better get back to being the old Frank if he wants to make the big $$$ as an FA next year.

soxtalker
08-11-2003, 02:48 PM
Could it be that Manuel has similar problems with both Thomas and Konerko? That is, they both hit significantly better when they play first base. Konerko has been hitting much better lately, so Manuel may be reluctant to take him out. But I have the impression lately that Frank hasn't been hitting as well, so he may need to go back to first. Makes for a lot of that juggling that so many on this board are fond of.

Dadawg_77
08-11-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Could it be that Manuel has similar problems with both Thomas and Konerko? That is, they both hit significantly better when they play first base. Konerko has been hitting much better lately, so Manuel may be reluctant to take him out. But I have the impression lately that Frank hasn't been hitting as well, so he may need to go back to first. Makes for a lot of that juggling that so many on this board are fond of.

The things is Good Konerko Year = Bad Thomas Year. So would you rather has a Good Thomas Year and Bad to no Konerko Year or the current situation?

soxtalker
08-11-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The things is Good Konerko Year = Bad Thomas Year. So would you rather has a Good Thomas Year and Bad to no Konerko Year or the current situation?

We can afford neither. If you force me to take the choice you've posed, I'll probably pick the first one, though I'm guessing that you'll pick the second. But neither is a terribly good option.

The point that I was trying to make is that there may be a third option that Manuel is trying to explore with the juggling that he is supposedly going to do on this next road trip. It doesn't appear that these players immediately turn off when they play DH instead of 1st base. That makes some sense, if the problem with DH is that they slip into a (bad) habit such as brooding over the hitting too much while DH'ing.

gosox41
08-11-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Maybe Konerko can get hot for the last 6 weeks, then we can trade him after we win the WS.
Move ex3rd sacker C Lee to first (he should be able to play it) to play that and DH with Frank, Everett to LF if we can afford him (his next contract can't be that much) and find a CF, which we've needed to do for a long, long, long time.


Once the season is over, no matter how the team fares, the Sox need to try to trade Konerko and Koch. These two guys eat up a lot of pay roll (about 26% of this year's) for very little production. Konerko is traditionally a one half player and Koch is lost and may never find himself again. Keeping them around hurts the Sox flexibility to make other moves.

Bob

Iwritecode
08-11-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Having nearly a day to puzzle this one through, I'm thinking this is yet another example of Manuel suffering from acute mental confusion. It was just last week he told Teddy in the Cubune that he couldn't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Thomas back at first base. Presto, Chango! Frank is at first base vs. Anaheim. Go figure...

:jerry
"I'm tired of pulling Frank's chain. Now I'm going to pull Konerko's."

This guy's antics are truly indefensible.

I don't remember the exact quote but Jerry said something about Frank feeling more comfortable playing first on the road. Something about when at home he can go to the cages and swing the bat between innings but while on the road it feels more like pinch-hitting because there's nothing to do but go swing the bat and then come back and sit down. I basically read it as Manuel having an irresistible urge to tinker and this is his latest excuse for it.

I mean we really didn’t expect him to continue using a set lineup the rest of the season did we???

Randar68
08-11-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Once the season is over, no matter how the team fares, the Sox need to try to trade Konerko and Koch. These two guys eat up a lot of pay roll (about 26% of this year's) for very little production. Konerko is traditionally a one half player and Koch is lost and may never find himself again. Keeping them around hurts the Sox flexibility to make other moves.

Bob

I have seen flashes of Koch over the past week or so. His velocity is up from mid-to-early season.

He claims to need to pitch a lot, but IMO after being overused the past 2-3 years, he needs rest and recover. Gordon is throwing hard now, after missing most of three years, basically, than ever before in his career. Keep Koch working on the side and get him into a game now and then and tell him not to pitch until the month before the start of next spring.

MisterB
08-11-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I don't remember the exact quote but Jerry said something about Frank feeling more comfortable playing first on the road. Something about when at home he can go to the cages and swing the bat between innings but while on the road it feels more like pinch-hitting because there's nothing to do but go swing the bat and then come back and sit down. I basically read it as Manuel having an irresistible urge to tinker and this is his latest excuse for it.

I mean we really didn’t expect him to continue using a set lineup the rest of the season did we???

Yeah, how dare Manuel play a player at a position he is fully capable of playing, without having to remove anyone else from the lineup. The scum. On the Tinker's scale of 1 to 10 I'd rate this a 2. Any other team's fans would hardly blink at this move, but I guess we're a little hypersensitive around here.

Iwritecode
08-11-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Yeah, how dare Manuel play a player at a position he is fully capable of playing, without having to remove anyone else from the lineup. The scum. On the Tinker's scale of 1 to 10 I'd rate this a 2. Any other team's fans would hardly blink at this move, but I guess we're a little hypersensitive around here.

I'm not so sure it's the move itself (as many of us have wondered why he didn't keep Frank there while he was tearing the cover off the ball) as the fact that Jerry was quoted not more than 2 or 3 weeks ago that he didn't foresee Thomas getting any more time at first unless some emergency came up. Remember last year when Clayton was "benched" and then back in the lineup the very next day? The man is a walking contradiction...

RKMeibalane
08-11-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I'm not so sure it's the move itself (as many of us have wondered why he didn't keep Frank there while he was tearing the cover off the ball) as the fact that Jerry was quoted not more than 2 or 3 weeks ago that he didn't foresee Thomas getting any more time at first unless some emergency came up. Remember last year when Clayton was "benched" and then back in the lineup the very next day? The man is a walking contradiction...

Nothing Manuel says has meaning. I'm surprised I didn't see this coming, considering how every one of Manuel's moves usually follows a statement such as this. The Royce Clayton debacle is a great example. Also, Manuel said earlier in the year that Konerko was benched indefinitely, and then poof, he was back in the lineup the next day.

The media think we're too hard on Manuel. What they don't realize is that he is screwing up this team with his random lineup changes and screwly personel moves. I wish he would just make a decision and then leave things alone.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone said something to Manuel about his tinkering with the lineup. That may be why he has gone with a more consistent lineup since the start of the second half. The Frank situation may also be the result of someone cracking down on JM. I think there are a lot of people within the organization who are getting fed up with the crap that Manuel keeps pulling every day. The Sox are in position to win their division, but like all other teams, they're only as good as their weakest link. The problem is that their weakest link is their manager.

gosox41
08-11-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone said something to Manuel about his tinkering with the lineup. That may be why he has gone with a more consistent lineup since the start of the second half. The Frank situation may also be the result of someone cracking down on JM. I think there are a lot of people within the organization who are getting fed up with the crap that Manuel keeps pulling every day. The Sox are in position to win their division, but like all other teams, they're only as good as their weakest link. The problem is that their weakest link is their manager.

Didn't JM or Jose hint about having a team meeting where the tinkering was discussed. I remember reading something about this right around the time Rick White went public with it.

At least JM is getting better by only having 2 set line ups. Frank should be at 1B the rest of the season as far as I'm concerned. I don't care how many 3-6-3 DP's he messes up.

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
08-11-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I'm not so sure it's the move itself (as many of us have wondered why he didn't keep Frank there while he was tearing the cover off the ball) as the fact that Jerry was quoted not more than 2 or 3 weeks ago that he didn't foresee Thomas getting any more time at first unless some emergency came up. Remember last year when Clayton was "benched" and then back in the lineup the very next day? The man is a walking contradiction...

Thank you. This was exactly the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. The words that come out of Manuel's mouth are meaningless. He's as likely to do precisely the opposite thing than the one he said he was going to do. The ballplayers can't possibly know what their manager intends to do because he changes things so often and his explanations usually make no sense with what he actually does. IT'S NUTS, and the more I read what he says and watch what he does, the more convinced I am that Manuel is stressed out and losing his grip on reality. His antics must be driving his ballplayers crazy.

TornLabrum
08-11-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Thank you. This was exactly the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. The words that come out of Manuel's mouth are meaningless. He's as likely to do precisely the opposite thing than the one he said he was going to do. The ballplayers can't possibly know what their manager intends to do because he changes things so often and his explanations usually make no sense with what he actually does. IT'S NUTS, and the more I read what he says and watch what he does, the more convinced I am that Manuel is stressed out and losing his grip on reality. His antics must be driving his ballplayers crazy.

At least he didn't jerk around Frank Thomas tonight.

MarqSox
08-11-2003, 11:03 PM
Looked like Konerko's D just saved a run or two.

voodoochile
08-11-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Looked like Konerko's D just saved a run or two.

Yeah, but his bat just cost us a run or two, so it evens out, no?

MarqSox
08-11-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, but his bat just cost us a run or two, so it evens out, no?

Yeah, but this thread is about his D killing us, not his bat :D:

Dadawg_77
08-11-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Yeah, but this thread is about his D killing us, not his bat :D:

His glove has cost at least four runs last week.

Kilroy
08-11-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
His glove has cost at least four runs last week.

And his bat cost 2 or 3 tonight. If we lose this game, we'll know why...

voodoochile
08-11-2003, 11:43 PM
Heck, if Paulie had better footwork, that ball wild PO throw might have been caught. It wasn't that far away from him, but he couldn't get out there and get it...

FarmerAndy
08-12-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Thank you. This was exactly the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. The words that come out of Manuel's mouth are meaningless. He's as likely to do precisely the opposite thing than the one he said he was going to do. The ballplayers can't possibly know what their manager intends to do because he changes things so often and his explanations usually make no sense with what he actually does. IT'S NUTS, and the more I read what he says and watch what he does, the more convinced I am that Manuel is stressed out and losing his grip on reality. His antics must be driving his ballplayers crazy.

AMEN.


After not playing Thomas last night, here's what's on the Sox official site today. Manuel has totally changed his tune within' a 24 hour period.


Who’s on first? Frank Thomas talked Sunday about returning to first base during the club’s seven-game road trip to Anaheim and Texas, trying to feel more a part of the game. But Manuel said Monday the lineup would stay the same, with Paul Konerko at first base, for the time being.

“As long as we are playing good baseball and going about it in the fashion we are currently going about it, the lineup will stay the way we are for a while,” Manuel said. “They have a batting cage here for Frank, so it’s not one of those situations where he can’t work out in between at-bats.

“We are going to stay that way until we look for some different things offensively,” Manuel added.

gosox41
08-12-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
AMEN.


After not playing Thomas last night, here's what's on the Sox official site today. Manuel has totally changed his tune within' a 24 hour period.


Who’s on first? Frank Thomas talked Sunday about returning to first base during the club’s seven-game road trip to Anaheim and Texas, trying to feel more a part of the game. But Manuel said Monday the lineup would stay the same, with Paul Konerko at first base, for the time being.

“As long as we are playing good baseball and going about it in the fashion we are currently going about it, the lineup will stay the way we are for a while,” Manuel said. “They have a batting cage here for Frank, so it’s not one of those situations where he can’t work out in between at-bats.

“We are going to stay that way until we look for some different things offensively,” Manuel added.

Well last night the Sox did not play good baseball, so I expect Frank to be back at 1B tongight. Also, what (if anything) does JM mean by the last line?? Maybe Manuel should be looking for timely, clutch hitting from the offense instead of waiting for the HR.


Put Frank back to 1B.

Bob