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View Full Version : Lineup - "The Tinkerer" Is Back


RKMeibalane
08-09-2003, 05:26 PM
2B- Graffanino
CF- Rowand
DH- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
LF- Lee
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
SS- Valentin
C- Burke

:jerry

*TINKER* *TINKER* *TINKER*

Manuel has reverted to his old ways. Ugh!

adsit
08-09-2003, 05:41 PM
Had to expect Burke in there, because Olivo's hurt and Sandy's knees won't hold up under daily play. I don't necessarily consider that a tinker. Why do Robbie and Carl have to sit down every third or fourth game, though?

RKMeibalane
08-09-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by adsit
Why do Robbie and Carl have to sit down every third or fourth game, though?

That's the reason why I consider this tinkering. He didn't need to rest either player. I wonder what goes through his mind when he fills out the lineup each day.

TraderTim
08-09-2003, 05:46 PM
We are facing a righty tomorrow. If you want to rest them one game before going on to Annaheim, this is the game because they match up better tomorrow.

He's picking his rest days based on matchups.

Forkit!

RKMeibalane
08-09-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by TraderTim
He's picking his rest days based on matchups.

That's the exact reason why people get so upset with him. Manuel needs to stop playing aroud, trying to find the best matchups, and instead, go with the players who are swinging the bat well. Alomar had a good game last night. It would have made sense to see if he could continue to do so tonight, even with a lefty throwing.

kevingrt
08-09-2003, 06:04 PM
I have no problem Aaron hasn't seen time in a long while and Robbie may need a day off but i doubt it. It's all okay though... If we win I have no problem

pudge
08-09-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by TraderTim
We are facing a righty tomorrow. If you want to rest them one game before going on to Annaheim, this is the game because they match up better tomorrow.

He's picking his rest days based on matchups.

Forkit!

Fork you! (Sorry, had to do it.)

jeremyb1
08-09-2003, 08:57 PM
i totally don't get it. obviously alomar isn't going to catch every day and manuel has already set a precedent of starting graffanino against lefties (which he'd be insane not to do) and playing rowand over everett against lefties. when everett played against mulder last night it was the first time in a long while he's started against left handed pitching. considering that we don't face lefties that often and rowand has the hot bat i have no problem with him in the lineup. personally i'd rather see alomar playing over jose but again this is nothing new, manuel has given each player equal time against lefties.

if you consider using lefty righty matchups to determine the starting lineup (graffanino kills lefties, jose hits .180 against them so graff starts) or any instance in which a bench player starts "tinkering" you might as well jump off a bridge now because you won't find a manager in baseball that do these things. show me the bench player than plays 50 games without an at bat with a defensive replacement or pinch runner.

rmusacch
08-09-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That's the reason why I consider this tinkering. He didn't need to rest either player. I wonder what goes through his mind when he fills out the lineup each day.

Why does he need to rest them on the same day? If you want to give your starters a day off, give one of them a day off, not multiple.

jeremyb1
08-09-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That's the exact reason why people get so upset with him. Manuel needs to stop playing aroud, trying to find the best matchups, and instead, go with the players who are swinging the bat well. Alomar had a good game last night. It would have made sense to see if he could continue to do so tonight, even with a lefty throwing.

i agree alomar should start over valentin but i think the rest of your argument is absurd. you want manuel to trot jose (.461 ops agaisnt lhp) out there instead of graffnino (.962 ops against lhp) with a lefty on the mound if jose is swinging the bat well? i want the hitter best equiped to hit in a certain situation out there regardless of who's hitting the ball well. alomar is better against lefties than jose but don't let one good showing convince you a .543 ops in 110 at bats is a total fluke.

voodoochile
08-10-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i agree alomar should start over valentin but i think the rest of your argument is absurd. you want manuel to trot jose (.461 ops agaisnt lhp) out there instead of graffnino (.962 ops against lhp) with a lefty on the mound if jose is swinging the bat well? i want the hitter best equiped to hit in a certain situation out there regardless of who's hitting the ball well. alomar is better against lefties than jose but don't let one good showing convince you a .543 ops in 110 at bats is a total fluke.

Yes, yes we do, because this isn't fantasy baseball. This is real baseball played by REAL people who don't need to sit down every 3rd day because their manager is too damned sleepy to stay awake for 9 innings day in and day out himself.

You keep pushing out these stats like they are some answer to this situation, but riddle me this, stathead. Why were the Sox so damned crappy when Manuel was following the stats and tinkering constantly and have subsequently been the hottest team in the majors since he quit tinkering. Does it mean anything at all to you that 2 of their last 3 losses - and both of them corpseball specials - have come when Manuel has benched 4 and then 2 (3 if you count Sandy) starters for a single game.

Manuel is an idiot and justifying his dumbass moves with numbers DON'T make him right, they merely make it seem like you are defending the constant random platoons/tinkers that pop up on a weekly basis and have been hurting the Sox much more than they have been helping them. Why does any member of this team need a day off? 4 of them rested on Sunday and ALL of them rested on Thursday. Manuel is an idiot, that's why...

Just answer the question about the lack of tinkering and subsequent success. Have you got a stat line that explains why when Manuel went to a set lineup regardless of matchups, the Sox went on a tear and why they were for crap when Manuel was tinkering daily?

I feel better now... thanks for letting me vent...

jeremyb1
08-10-2003, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why were the Sox so damned crappy when Manuel was following the stats and tinkering constantly and have subsequently been the hottest team in the majors since he quit tinkering. Does it mean anything at all to you that 2 of their last 3 losses - and both of them corpseball specials - have come when Manuel has benched 4 and then 2 (3 if you count Sandy) starters for a single game.

Manuel is an idiot and justifying his dumbass moves with numbers DON'T make him right, they merely make it seem like you are defending the constant random platoons/tinkers that pop up on a weekly basis and have been hurting the Sox much more than they have been helping them. Why does any member of this team need a day off? 4 of them rested on Sunday and ALL of them rested on Thursday. Manuel is an idiot, that's why...

Just answer the question about the lack of tinkering and subsequent success. Have you got a stat line that explains why when Manuel went to a set lineup regardless of matchups, the Sox went on a tear and why they were for crap when Manuel was tinkering daily?

the problem is that the majority of what you're saying here is inaccurate and inconsistent with the other arguments made in this thread. you're arguing that manuel has used a set lineup since the all-star break and we've played well in a thread complaining about his recent tinkering. well, which is it? are we good now because manuel is using a set lineup, or is manuel still hurting the team by tinkering?

it was argued in this thread that playing graffanino is hurtful to the lineup and constitutes tinkering yet manuel has played graffanino in every game against lefties since the all-star break, and yet we've played very well. furthermore, graffanino's second half stats since manuel started playing him against lefties based on matchups (i can only recall one second half game where he played against a righty): .351 avg, .405 obp, .649 slg, 1.054 ops. supposedly playing rowand based on matchups is also tinkering. his second half stats: .421 average, .429 obp, .789 slg, 1.218 ops.

you can sit here and tell me that the only statistic that matters is wins but that's one of the worst arguments i've ever heard if you ask me. first of all, taking only the 25 games or so since the all-star break is an unreasonably small sample size. second of all, its impossible to isolate certain players contributions to a win or a loss. if rowand his a home run in ever at bat since the all-star break yet we had terrible outings from our starters every game he started and therefore lost each of those games, you'd argue that we're better when rowand is out of the lineup since we're winless when he starts? clearly, some of the worst logic i've ever heard.

finally, it may be true that we lose more games when key players sit, yet there's no way to meausure the effects that fatigue may have on players if they are not given days off. if robbie alomar who is 35 playedand has asked manuel for off days on day games following a night game played on 12 consecutive days and his production trailed off due to fatigue, we might lose more than one game because of that. obviously if we could play our best players every single game and they never tired we'd win more games but that's unrealistic. only a handful of players start 162 games each season. guys simply have to sit sometimes.

voodoochile
08-10-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the problem is that the majority of what you're saying here is inaccurate and inconsistent with the other arguments made in this thread. you're arguing that manuel has used a set lineup since the all-star break and we've played well in a thread complaining about his recent tinkering. well, which is it? are we good now because manuel is using a set lineup, or is manuel still hurting the team by tinkering?

It still happens too often and thus hurts the team. These guys don't need a day off every week. For most of them, the offdays on the schedule are enough - with an occasional other day off at other times. In the end, Alomar and Everett are going to give the team a LOT more than Graff and Rowand. What was the purpose of playing 3 bench guys last night? I don't know if it changes the outcome, but why 3 guys on the same night? Why 4 last Sunday ? Actually, 5 if you remember that Buehrle lost his regular catcher because Manuel wanted to make sure Danny Wright had Alomar behind the plate the night before. A well timed rest day isn't a bad thing, but Manuel treats these guys like china and it is costing the team games in the middle of a pennant push.

At least Frank is going back to first for the road trip...

TornLabrum
08-10-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It still happens too often and thus hurts the team. These guys don't need a day off every week. For most of them, the offdays on the schedule are enough - with an occasional other day off at other times. In the end, Alomar and Everett are going to give the team a LOT more than Graff and Rowand. What was the purpose of playing 3 bench guys last night? I don't know if it changes the outcome, but why 3 guys on the same night? Why 4 last Sunday ? Actually, 5 if you remember that Buehrle lost his regular catcher because Manuel wanted to make sure Danny Wright had Alomar behind the plate the night before. A well timed rest day isn't a bad thing, but Manuel treats these guys like china and it is costing the team games in the middle of a pennant push.

At least Frank is going back to first for the road trip...

The purpose of playing the three bench guys last night is because those are the guys that Manuel puts in against lefthanded pitchers. He's been doing it since the All-Star break.

voodoochile
08-10-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
The purpose of playing the three bench guys last night is because those are the guys that Manuel puts in against lefthanded pitchers. He's been doing it since the All-Star break.

Rowand hasn't played against every lefty since the ASB and thank goodness for that.

TornLabrum
08-10-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Rowand hasn't played against every lefty since the ASB and thank goodness for that.

So basically he replaced one player in his anit-lefty lineup.

voodoochile
08-10-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
So basically he replaced one player in his anit-lefty lineup.

He also went with Burke who hadn't played all year. I understand Sandy needs nights off, but why use him on the same night that you play Rowand? Because in Jerry's mind, Rowand is actually as good as Everett.

I don't see it, but maybe that's just me...

TornLabrum
08-11-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He also went with Burke who hadn't played all year. I understand Sandy needs nights off, but why use him on the same night that you play Rowand? Because in Jerry's mind, Rowand is actually as good as Everett.

I don't see it, but maybe that's just me...

He used Sandy yesterday because he wanted him to catch Loaiza this afternoon. There is no way you want Alomar to catch most of your games at this point in his career and with his knees, so you use him when you can and give him lots of rest when you can.

I've been one of Manuel's most outspoken critics in these parts, but I'm not going to fault him for last night's lineup. It was pretty consistent with what he's done in similar situations.

Now if you want to discuss whether having a lefty lineup and a righty lineup is good strategy, that's a completely different thread. As far as this thread goes, Manuel has done nothing that a lot of managers past, present, and future, haven't done or won't continue to do.