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View Full Version : Can we start trying to win games?


pudge
08-06-2003, 03:59 PM
Instead of "building confidence" or making sure "everyone gets to play"???? Why go to Gordon when he pitched 44 innings on Monday, and Colon was cruising with only 99 pitches?? I just want to see our manager think about winning for a change. For the love of all that is good and pure. Please!

inta
08-06-2003, 04:06 PM
manuel is not comfortable with a complete game shut-out, he likes to allow the other team to get back in the game.

he must be paid by the hour or something.

Randar68
08-06-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by inta
manuel is not comfortable with a complete game shut-out, he likes to allow the other team to get back in the game.

he must be paid by the hour or something.

Same people bitched about him leaving Colon out there in the SF game.

Rumor that Colon had a blister forming on one of the fingers of his pitching hand. Let's wait for all the info before cricfying everyone.

MarqSox
08-06-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Instead of "building confidence" or making sure "everyone gets to play"???? Why go to Gordon when he pitched 44 innings on Monday, and Colon was cruising with only 99 pitches?? I just want to see our manager think about winning for a change. For the love of all that is good and pure. Please!

He put Gordon out there TO WIN. He's our de facto closer. If Colon had a blister, this was absolutely the right move.

Criticizing Manuel for every single move he makes only weakens your position when he makes a truly bad move. Please, stop the constant whining. We won the game, chill out.

inta
08-06-2003, 04:14 PM
well if that's true about the blister then yeah, definitely get him out of there. but he only had 99 pitches, it seemed baffling.
plus a complete game shutout would have killed alot of the royals hopes for this year alot better than what we did with our bats last week.

now they at least can think "well we almost did it"

MarqSox
08-06-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by inta
well if that's true about the blister then yeah, definitely get him out of there. but he only had 99 pitches, it seemed baffling.
plus a complete game shutout would have killed alot of the royals hopes for this year alot better than what we did with our bats last week.

now they at least can think "well we almost did it"

And they'll "almost" make the playoffs. BFD.

pudge
08-06-2003, 04:52 PM
Picking on today's game is probably not fair, but it just goes to show how Monday's disaster *nearly* cost us the next two games. We're winning in spite of JM. Let's keep it up!

inta
08-06-2003, 05:02 PM
the "spite" sox?

winning in defiance of JM.

Shoeless Joe
08-06-2003, 07:13 PM
I really don't think Jerry did anything wrong today. I agree with JM decision to pull Colon out because you obviously don't want to get this guy severely injured. Tom Gordon had a job to do and blew it. And Marte almost did the same. But a win is a win and I'm happy. But I agree with everybody saying that the Sox are winning on pure talent rather than on the managerial skills of Jerry Manuel.

jeremyb1
08-06-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Criticizing Manuel for every single move he makes only weakens your position when he makes a truly bad move. Please, stop the constant whining. We won the game, chill out.

very well put.

BKozi
08-06-2003, 07:22 PM
Bartolo had a stiff back in the seventh. Getting him out of there was the right thing to do. He even admitted that he just wanted to get out of the eighth. I don't know about turning it over to Flash, but it was the right move to pull Colon. That's the last thing we need is for him to really screw up his back and miss 3 weeks.

CHISOXFAN13
08-06-2003, 07:22 PM
If it's hot and humid, a guy can get tired even if he throws less than 100 pitches.

RKMeibalane
08-06-2003, 07:39 PM
Jerry Manuel made the right decision taking Colon out. Blisters are unpredictable, and they have been known to limit a pitches ability to throw certain pitches. Several players have missed starts because of them. If Colon had one forming on his finger, then it was smart of JM to remove him from the game.

Let's try to avoid trashing Manuel for every little thing. He was trying to protect one of his players from possible injury, which is something that a manger needs to do, from time to time. I would have hated to see Bartolo end up on the DL because of a blister, but stranger things have happened.

doogiec
08-06-2003, 07:40 PM
What do you expect Manuel to do when virtually every relief pitcher we have is inconsistent and unpredictable? I know its getting fashionable to rip Manuel whether he leaves the starter in or yanks him, but this is getting really ridiculous. Nobody has a clue whether the relievers are going to suck or dominate at any given game.

Manuel should be able to expect his top line relievers to protect a multi run lead. And if they don't, its not Manuel's fault.

chisoxt
08-06-2003, 08:47 PM
What do you expect Manuel to do when virtually every relief pitcher we have is inconsistent and unpredictable? I know its getting fashionable to rip Manuel whether he leaves the starter in or yanks him, but this is getting really ridiculous. Nobody has a clue whether the relievers are going to suck or dominate at any given game.

Well, for starters I would expect my manager not to put the closer in the eighth inning, with your team trailing by a run, and worst yet to pitch two innings in a losing effort!!

Lip Man 1
08-06-2003, 09:01 PM
It's not like he has much of a choice from the right side. Koch??? Ginter???

HELLO Kenny Williams...time to pick up somebody off the waiver wire!!!!! (or bring Rick White back!!!)

Lip

gosox41
08-07-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Jerry Manuel made the right decision taking Colon out. Blisters are unpredictable, and they have been known to limit a pitches ability to throw certain pitches. Several players have missed starts because of them. If Colon had one forming on his finger, then it was smart of JM to remove him from the game.

Let's try to avoid trashing Manuel for every little thing. He was trying to protect one of his players from possible injury, which is something that a manger needs to do, from time to time. I would have hated to see Bartolo end up on the DL because of a blister, but stranger things have happened.

Manuel was right in pulling Colon and wrong in putting in Gordon. Gordon needs a more then one day off after throwing 44 pitches on Monday. He even warmed up Tuesday night so add that to the workload.

I would have bought in Ginter or Schoeneweis. I figure Wunsch was unavailable. Marte should have backed up if there was trouble (which JM did correctly) and Koch should have been passing out Gatorade bottles to the bullpen so no one would get too hot.

Bob

doogiec
08-07-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by chisoxt
Well, for starters I would expect my manager not to put the closer in the eighth inning, with your team trailing by a run, and worst yet to pitch two innings in a losing effort!!

1. We don't have a legitimate closer at this point. It was supposed to be Koch. Gordon was supposed to be a setup man.

2. Gordon has started, set up and closed throughout his career. He is more than capable of pitching two innings. He's gone two innings several times this year.

3. Gordon did not pitch during the Seattle series. He was rested.

4. What other right hander would you use in the eighth?

5. If you consider Gordon your top reliever, wouldn't you want him in a postion to keep the game within one run the way the Sox had been scoring? Gordon shuts them down for two innings, we pick up a couple of runs, its over. In other words, if Gordon did his job Manuel would be a genius.

Jerko
08-07-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
If it's hot and humid, a guy can get tired even if he throws less than 100 pitches.

Well then maybe Colon should quit asking to wear the black jerseys in the daytime when he's pushing 300 pounds.

Jerko
08-07-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by doogiec
What do you expect Manuel to do when virtually every relief pitcher we have is inconsistent and unpredictable? I know its getting fashionable to rip Manuel whether he leaves the starter in or yanks him, but this is getting really ridiculous. Nobody has a clue whether the relievers are going to suck or dominate at any given game.

Manuel should be able to expect his top line relievers to protect a multi run lead. And if they don't, its not Manuel's fault.

If they're so inconsistent and unreliable, maybe we should wait as long as possible to bring them in, NOT in the 6th inning with no outs and a "multi-run" lead! Then for 2 days they're "unavailable" because they've been misused. I don't see how that's not the manager's fault. Everybody on this site praises Marte, Gordon, and Wunsch at times and now they all suddenly suck? Koch I admit is hopeless this year, JM will get seared every time he brings him in with less than a 5 run lead, and there IS nothing he can do about that, but 3 pitchers now have complained to or about Manuel publicly, he must be doing something wrong.

maurice
08-07-2003, 12:38 PM
Why is everyone so concerned about lefty-righty matchups? JM's emphasis on this type of "strategy" is ridiculous. A good relief pitcher can get batters out no matter which side of the plate they stand on. Marte in particular destroys both lefties and righties. This is only an issue for mediocre relievers with significant lefty-righty splits, such as Schoenweis.

MarqSox
08-07-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Why is everyone so concerned about lefty-righty matchups? JM's emphasis on this type of "strategy" is ridiculous. A good relief pitcher can get batters out no matter which side of the plate they stand on. Marte in particular destroys both lefties and righties. This is only an issue for mediocre relievers with significant lefty-righty splits, such as Schoenweis.

You may be right, but that said, some of the most successful managers in baseball history got hung up on lefty-righty matchups. This isn't just a JM thing.