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Lip Man 1
08-06-2003, 01:26 AM
Wow the Tribune has some interesting Sox stuff to say the least in their stories and columns.

Where to begin? How about Manager Gandhi's latest insane statement:

"Manuel said he made the move because he wanted to instill confidence in the beleaguered Koch.

"I know it was an unpopular decision, but that's the mind-set," he said. "We have to win games, but at the same time, we're going to need Billy Koch to do what he can do."

He's lost any remaining sense he had! What a friggin' moron!!!!!

Then you have another story saying that BOTH Garland and Gordon marched into Manager Gandhi's office wanting to know what the hell was going on. (Rick White is accepting apologies from all of you who were ripping him!)

and finally both Phil Rogers and Rick Morrissey have columns where both take verbal shots at Manager Gandhi. Morrissey's is especially biting!

Enjoy and discuss!

Lip

doublem23
08-06-2003, 01:34 AM
Ooo... Phil Rogers and Rick Morrissey finally see what we've been saying for 2-3 years now.

Sounds about right.

****ing morons.

And, by the way, Tom Gordon and Jon Garland have every right to bitch and moan because they're ERA is not over 6. Rick White, on the other hand, can shut his damn mouth.

JJAustin69
08-06-2003, 01:52 AM
Sounds like they have been lurking around WSI. Phil Roger's opening statement is certainly directed towards us.

OEO Magglio
08-06-2003, 01:53 AM
Then you have another story saying that BOTH Garland and Gordon marched into Manager Gandhi's office wanting to know what the hell was going on.
If Garland and Flash did that good for them because they didn't bring it up in the media. If you have a problem with the manager keep it inside the clubhouse don't trash the manager in the media, White should learn something from JG and Flash.

gosox41
08-06-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Wow the Tribune has some interesting Sox stuff to say the least in their stories and columns.

Where to begin? How about Manager Gandhi's latest insane statement:

"Manuel said he made the move because he wanted to instill confidence in the beleaguered Koch.

"I know it was an unpopular decision, but that's the mind-set," he said. "We have to win games, but at the same time, we're going to need Billy Koch to do what he can do."

He's lost any remaining sense he had! What a friggin' moron!!!!!

Then you have another story saying that BOTH Garland and Gordon marched into Manager Gandhi's office wanting to know what the hell was going on. (Rick White is accepting apologies from all of you who were ripping him!)

and finally both Phil Rogers and Rick Morrissey have columns where both take verbal shots at Manager Gandhi. Morrissey's is especially biting!

Enjoy and discuss!

Lip

So did Manuel build any confidence in Koch last night? He came in for one batter gave upa hit and was pulled. If you want to buiild confidence in a guy then let him pitch to more then one batter.

Another reason JM is an idiot.

Bob

Dadawg_77
08-06-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by JJAustin69
Sounds like they have been lurking around WSI. Phil Roger's opening statement is certainly directed towards us.

Phil actually has posted here and did an chat Q&A session with the site.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-06-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
So did Manuel build any confidence in Koch last night? He came in for one batter gave upa hit and was pulled. If you want to buiild confidence in a guy then let him pitch to more then one batter.

Another reason JM is an idiot.

Bob

Well stated. This is more evidence Manuel is suffering from acute mental confusion. The excuses he dreams up for irrational decisionmaking only make sense inside his own foggy mind.

Procol Harum
08-06-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
[B]Well stated. This is more evidence Manuel is suffering from acute mental confusion. B]

Headline: "Manuel Still Hospitalized With AMC--Sox Win Division"

Mighty4
08-06-2003, 10:27 AM
I don't even know if it's worth bashing Manuel anymore. We have enough evidence that he is a moron just by the crap he says after games, if not for the moves he makes during them. Instill confidence in KOCH? And then take him out after one batter? Kind of defeats the purpose. But that's not the real reason Manuel put him in (GASP a RIGHTY was coming up, who cares Wunsch just mowed down 5 in a row). That makes Manuel a liar on top of being an idiot. KOCK came in because Gordon couldn't (because of JM) and because there was a RIGHTY up. One day after a LEFTY could not get any of 4 LEFTIES out that he faced. Maybe if Manuel manages for 39 more years, which at this pace it seems he will, he'll get it through his scrawny head that that does not work all the time and maybe he'll quit jeopardizing games with moronic moves. I'll be 78 by then, but hey, I can dream can't I?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-06-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
If Garland and Flash did that good for them because they didn't bring it up in the media. If you have a problem with the manager keep it inside the clubhouse don't trash the manager in the media, White should learn something from JG and Flash.

Given my support for White speaking out, it might seem surprising that I agree with your statement. It is always far preferable that disputes be ironed out inside the clubhouse and not through the media. Garland and Gordon went to Manuel first, but that didn't stop word of their frustration making it into the media. If they did it strictly by the book, NONE OF US would know one damned thing about it.

In the world I live in, the first guy to speak up is the one who deserves the pat on the back for showing enough guts to articulate what it is others are thinking but are too timid to say themselves. Rick White was not speaking for himself when he expressed the frustration of starters made to sit in the bullpen the day before their starts. Now some of the same issues that White raised are being raised by others on the pitching staff, too--and they aren't bothering to hide it from the public either. I strongly question whether either Garland or Gordon would have spoken up if White hadn't already done the hard work for them. Even Manuel described Garland's actions as "personal growth."

I find it highly ironic that some would think Garland & Gordon deserve untempered praise while White is castigated as completely out of line. ERA has NOTHING to do with brains or guts. If Manuel thinks speaking up is personal growth, he ought to be man enough to admit the fault with his approach for dealing with the problems White, Garland, Gordon, and doubtlessly several others too, have raised with his management style--both inside the clubhouse and directly to the media, and sometimes both.

delben91
08-06-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Given my support for White speaking out, it might seem surprising that I agree with your statement. It is always far preferable that disputes be ironed out inside the clubhouse and not through the media. Garland and Gordon went to Manuel first, but that didn't stop word of their frustration making it into the media. If they did it strictly by the book, NONE OF US would know one damned thing about it.

In the world I live in, the first guy to speak up is the one who deserves the pat on the back for showing enough guts to articulate what it is others are thinking but are too timid to say themselves. Rick White was not speaking for himself when he expressed the frustration of starters made to sit in the bullpen the day before their starts. Now some of the same issues that White raised are being raised by others on the pitching staff, too--and they aren't bothering to hide it from the public either. I strongly question whether either Garland or Gordon would have spoken up if White hadn't already done the hard work for them. Even Manuel described Garland's actions as "personal growth."

I find it highly ironic that some would think Garland & Gordon deserve untempered praise while White is castigated as completely out of line. ERA has NOTHING to do with brains or guts. If Manuel thinks speaking up is personal growth, he ought to be man enough to admit the fault with his approach for dealing with the problems White, Garland, Gordon, and doubtlessly several others too, have raised with his management style--both inside the clubhouse and directly to the media, and sometimes both.

I agree with you PHG. However, in the case of Garland, since White had spoken up, it probably made going to JM easier. Still, after getting yanked in the 6th inning after only 75-80 pitches, he might have been ticked enough to go see JM regardless. I know I would've been.

Iwritecode
08-06-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
So did Manuel build any confidence in Koch last night? He came in for one batter gave upa hit and was pulled. If you want to buiild confidence in a guy then let him pitch to more then one batter.

Another reason JM is an idiot.

Bob

I actually think it was a pretty good time to bring him in. It's not like we can afford to let him sit out there and rot (a la Glover). With all the lefties we have in that bullpen we are going to eventually need another effective right-hander to go to in a close game besides Gordon. I don't know if I'd trust bringing in Dan Wright in a close game considering he's been a starter his entire career. They were up by 3 with 2 outs, the bases were empty and he was facing a right-handed batter. What better time to bring him in? If he gives up a hit, so be it. If he gets the out, all the better. With the upcoming schedule I just don't see too many blowout games in the near future where JM could bring him in a low-pressure situation to get more work.

gosox41
08-06-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I actually think it was a pretty good time to bring him in. It's not like we can afford to let him sit out there and rot (a la Glover). With all the lefties we have in that bullpen we are going to eventually need another effective right-hander to go to in a close game besides Gordon. I don't know if I'd trust bringing in Dan Wright in a close game considering he's been a starter his entire career. They were up by 3 with 2 outs, the bases were empty and he was facing a right-handed batter. What better time to bring him in? If he gives up a hit, so be it. If he gets the out, all the better. With the upcoming schedule I just don't see too many blowout games in the near future where JM could bring him in a low-pressure situation to get more work.

If you're going to being Koch into a game and try to build his confidence (as JM used for the reason for bringing him in) then maybe JM should bring him in with the idea of using him to face more then one batter.

JM makes me sick with all these righty/lefty combos. Basically he took out Wunsch, a lefty, because a righty was coming up. He brings in Koch who gives up a hit and then takes out Koch for another lefty. Why not just leave Wunsch in the game to begin with?? I have more confidence in Wunsch getting a righty out then I do Koch. And if the righty got on, then Wunsch would have faced a lefty next. Instead JM misused the bullpen yet again by his constant tinkering.

If JM feels the need to pitch Koch and feels like he needs to have him pitch well to help win the division then don't bring him in a game against the first place team in your division with the idea of having him face one batter. It puts excess strain on the rest of the bullpen and it's not helping Koch's confidence (of course neither is my relentless booing of him.)

Bob

ChiSoxBobette
08-06-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Wow the Tribune has some interesting Sox stuff to say the least in their stories and columns.

Where to begin? How about Manager Gandhi's latest insane statement:

"Manuel said he made the move because he wanted to instill confidence in the beleaguered Koch.

"I know it was an unpopular decision, but that's the mind-set," he said. "We have to win games, but at the same time, we're going to need Billy Koch to do what he can do."

He's lost any remaining sense he had! What a friggin' moron!!!!!

Then you have another story saying that BOTH Garland and Gordon marched into Manager Gandhi's office wanting to know what the hell was going on. (Rick White is accepting apologies from all of you who were ripping him!)

and finally both Phil Rogers and Rick Morrissey have columns where both take verbal shots at Manager Gandhi. Morrissey's is especially biting!

Enjoy and discuss!

Lip
Like I heard Ed Farmer say at the beginning of the year the White Sox will be good and possibly make the playoffs as long as Jerry Manuel learns how to manage his bullpen and starting pitchers, and as we've seen this year Manuel still has no grasp as to manage pitchers and its cost us some games. I was at the game Monday vs K.C. and I still think he should have kept Garland out there for at least one more batter especially when manuel knows Garland has a history of getting guys to hit into doubleplays and that part of K.C. lineup Monday night did nothing against Garland up to that point in the game.

Go White Sox!

soxrme
08-06-2003, 11:14 AM
Wunsch was pitching too well. His curve was falling off the plate and he was ruining the master plan for using the entire bullpen in two nights so Wright could be the closer Wednesday. You guys really don't see the big picture!! :gulp: :gulp:

Hangar18
08-06-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
So did Manuel build any confidence in Koch last night? He came in for one batter gave upa hit and was pulled. If you want to buiild confidence in a guy then let him pitch to more then one batter.

Another reason JM is an idiot.

Bob

I had a problem with Manuel bringing KOCH in in the first place....clinging to a lead late in the game. HOWEVER, if we had to put him in...I wouldve done the same thing.....I wouldve given the ball to KOCH and said "IF YOU LET ONE GUY GET ON BASE.....IM PULLING YOU"

PaleHoseGeorge
08-06-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I had a problem with Manuel bringing KOCH in in the first place....clinging to a lead late in the game. HOWEVER, if we had to put him in...I wouldve done the same thing.....I wouldve given the ball to KOCH and said "IF YOU LET ONE GUY GET ON BASE.....IM PULLING YOU"

See, that's the problem. Manuel claims he put Koch into the game to show confidence in him. That's the excuse he used in his post-game comments. Instead of showing confidence, he pulled him after one batter. Furthermore, if he told Koch what you yourself would have told him, that's showing no confidence even before Koch threw his first pitch!

Manuel is suffering from acute mental confusion if he thinks his explanation makes any sense at all. I used to think Manuel invented excuses to cover up for his love of tinkering. The more he opens his mouth, the more I'm convinced he is truly suffering from mental illness.

Hangar18
08-06-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well stated. This is more evidence Manuel is suffering from acute mental confusion. The excuses he dreams up for irrational decisionmaking only make sense inside his own foggy mind.

This may be the only time Im going to Defend Manuel here. I believe his bullpen was Taxed from Mondays game......Prompting him needing to go the bullpen and using Last Resort KOCH. I think Manuel put him in with the idea he wasnt taking any GUFF
from KOCH. Of course, Billy "Firestarter" Koch was feeling a bit on the Pyro side and gives up a screaming Double. And he was Promptly Yanked. Everyone here is sounding like they WANTED Koch to stay in there at that point. No way.

Randar68
08-06-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
This may be the only time Im going to Defend Manuel here. I believe his bullpen was Taxed from Mondays game......Prompting him needing to go the bullpen and using Last Resort KOCH. I think Manuel put him in with the idea he wasnt taking any GUFF
from KOCH. Of course, Billy "Firestarter" Koch was feeling a bit on the Pyro side and gives up a screaming Double. And he was Promptly Yanked. Everyone here is sounding like they WANTED Koch to stay in there at that point. No way.

Problem with this:

1) Manual is the one who taxed the BP the night before.
2) Wunsch was chuckin' and there was a lefty following the righty.

great forward-looking approach by Ghandi.

:firejerry

Randar68
08-06-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Given my support for White speaking out, it might seem surprising that I agree with your statement. It is always far preferable that disputes be ironed out inside the clubhouse and not through the media. Garland and Gordon went to Manuel first, but that didn't stop word of their frustration making it into the media. If they did it strictly by the book, NONE OF US would know one damned thing about it.


What evidence is there that some other player or staff person leaked the info or that a media member did not whitness it or see JG or TG approach Manual?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-06-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
What evidence is there that some other player or staff person leaked the info or that a media member did not whitness it or see JG or TG approach Manual?

The point is moot. If you INTEND to do something privately, you do so. And if you don't... Manuel was asked about it and revealed details, too. He actually contributed to the story.

It's pretty obvious that SOMEBODY inside the clubhouse is pissed off enough to let these details leak publicly. Whether it is White, Garland, Gordon, or somebody else is really of no consequence to the fact that details are being leaked out.