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FJA
08-06-2003, 12:52 AM
OK, so Koch was only in for one batter, and that batter hit a double. This much we have come to expect.

But did anyone else notice that Koch was hitting 96 on the gun? That is at least 3 mph higher than he's been hitting most of the season.

I don't know if this ultimately means anything at all, but I do know he and Coop have been doing a lot of work together. As I've said before, if anything at all comes of their work (even being able to comfortably put him in there to eat innings), it could very well be the key to the division and beyond.

Given Koch's recent comments, I'd love to see him be able to do something. It's always great to see a good team guy able to actually help the team.

doublem23
08-06-2003, 12:57 AM
Can we please not use the radar gun to guage a pitcher's effectiveness?

FJA
08-06-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Can we please not use the radar gun to guage a pitcher's effectiveness?

I don't think because Koch hit 96 mph he's suddenly effective--not by any means.

But so much of the complaining about Koch around here is about how he lost "X" mph off his fastball. Well, in that department he made some significant progress, apparently. You can't judge that alone as a bad thing.

Koch has a long way to go, and all I'm saying is, who knows ... maybe one thing can lead to another, and we can get something good out of Billy Koch yet. God knows we need it.

Mighty4
08-06-2003, 01:16 AM
The radar gun is ALMOST as useless as the official scorer.

Mots09
08-06-2003, 01:22 AM
I called my buddy who was at work (Without TV), and was like Manuel is trying to start a fire. And look what happened, he did! Marte had to come in an inning early, get that out and lose the adredaline in the 9th. Thanks Billy and Manuel!


GO SOX GO

jeremyb1
08-06-2003, 01:46 AM
a couple things: first, the radar gun on fsn seems to consistently give readings 2-3 mph faster than it should be. dj carasco was being clocked at 94 tonight and marte hit 97 both of which seem high to me. a few games ago on fsn buehrle hit 94 which is obviously way too high for him. i've heard hawk say at least once that the radar gun is not quite right. despite the inaccuracy of the readings though, it seems koch's fastball was at least hitting 94 tonight which is a few mph faster than before.

as far as the value of using the gun to judge koch, i completely fail to see how his velocity has no bearing on how well he is pitching. we're talking about a guy who has never exhibited good control at the major league level yet has had a few outstanding seasons due almost entirely to the fact that he throws the ball nearly 100 mph. to say that it shouldn't matter whether he is throwing the ball 100 or 90 is some of the worst logic i've ever heard. clearly you don't get away with the same mistakes and require the same amount of control throwing 90 mph as you do throwing 100 mph.

doublem23
08-06-2003, 01:48 AM
If you rely on a gimmick 100 MPH heater, guys will figure out how to hit you. It may take some time, but they'll figure it out.

I'd much rather Billy learn how to pitch rather than work on getting that fastball up 5-7 MPH.

jabrch
08-06-2003, 07:08 AM
is nothing more than a hard straight pitch. It isn't the speed that gets hitters, it is the movement. Even if Koch was hitting 100, his ball is still dead straight and would be pounded around the park. For some reason Billy doesn't have the bite on his fastball he used to. It use to drop a bit or rise a bit depending on how he threw it. Until he gets that movement back, he may as well pitch batting practice.

hold2dibber
08-06-2003, 08:58 AM
(1) I agree with Jeremy - to say that velocity is not important for Koch's effectiveness is insane. Yes, it is true that he would be better if he learned how to hit his spots and how to really pitch. But he has been a relatively effective pitcher in the past even though he couldn't hit his spots and didn't really know how to pitch. Why? Because he threw lights out heat. If he can get his velocity back, he'll be better for it. He appeared to get some of it back last night, and that's a good thing.

(2) I was bummed that Koch got booed so much. I understand he's been ineffective, but he clearly is a team player and is giving it everything he has out there. I never understand booing someone like that.

(3) It was a tough play, but I though Magglio should have caught the ball on the double Koch gave up. Harvey (?) hit it hard, but it hit Maggs square in the glove.

gosox41
08-06-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
If you rely on a gimmick 100 MPH heater, guys will figure out how to hit you. It may take some time, but they'll figure it out.

I'd much rather Billy learn how to pitch rather than work on getting that fastball up 5-7 MPH.

Well lucky for you it looks like the Sox are trying to teach Billy how to pitch. Unfortuneately it's at a cost of $10 mill. over the next 2 years.

I'd rather see Koch go back to whatever he did last year. He wasn't as big as a bust then as he is now. For the next year and a quarter i'd like to see him use his old mechanics and pitch more effectively. After that some other team could go teach him how to pitch, or maybe if Koch returns to his old form the Sox could trade his sorry butt out of town.

Bob

gosox41
08-06-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
(1)

(2) I was bummed that Koch got booed so much. I understand he's been ineffective, but he clearly is a team player and is giving it everything he has out there. I never understand booing someone like that.



We're in a pennant race, I don't much care for ineffective players, especially one's making a lot of money that have lost their ability at the age of 28.

Bob

brewcrew/chisox
08-06-2003, 11:04 AM
Ask Carl Farnsworth how effective his 98-99 mph fastball was last year before he started to learn how to counter it with a killer slider? Farnsworth, like Koch this year, was throwing b-b's with no movement, and hitters were knocking him all over the park.

Koch, throws the same stuff, but 4-5 miles an hour slower...not a good recipe for success in this league. If his fastball has diminished in speed, then he will have to learn how to use his slider and work on his control, because hitters are just keying in on that fastball on 3-1, 2-1 counts.

That being said, I also became a bit uneasy when the whole crowd booed the heck out of Koch. But this might be just me. I really don't think booing your own players does anything but hurt the team. I think that it is BECAUSE we are in a pennant race that we should NOT boo the man. How does booing our own players help with their confidence at all?

I remember last year when people were booing Frank when he was struggling for a while, and it really pssed me off. Why would you boo a guy who did so much for your team in the past but is going through a slump? The same with Konerko this year. I could see if the guy was being a complete tool, like Sosa this year, but why boo a guy who is struggling, but you know is working hard at trying to get better? I think Koch fits this description.

Personally, if I have a problem with one of the Players on the Sox, I use this site to vent my frustration (Much more fun too) and save my booing for the opposing team, and, of course the Cubs.

hold2dibber
08-06-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
We're in a pennant race, I don't much care for ineffective players, especially one's making a lot of money that have lost their ability at the age of 28.

Bob

Me neither!

But do you think booing an ineffective player who is already giving his all will somehow make him more effective? Seems highly unlikely to me. Seems much more likely that constant booing of a player who is trying his hardest but isn't seeing success, will add to his stress and frustration and increase the possibility that he won't get out of his funk.

I'm pissed that Koch has sucked, and I'm pissed that KW traded Foulke for him. I'm pissed that he's making big money this year and next. But I think he is working his ass off to get better, and as a Sox fan, I desperately want him to succeed - and I think it is more likely that raining down boos on him will diminish his chances for success than it is for those boos to somehow spur him on to a better performance.

Lip Man 1
08-06-2003, 11:31 AM
Maybe it's me but that booing was NOT directed towards Koch. it was directed in torrents at Manager Moron who put him in, let him throw all of four pitches then removed him.

Koch can learn how to pitch again in the Winter league South of the border this off season.

For right now considering the Sox trail the Royals and have a brutal schedule (compared to them) Koch is a luxury the Sox can't afford. He pitches when they have a ten run lead in a game or a ten game lead in the division.

Till then he rots on the bench. If he doesn't like it let him demand a trade and return his salary so the Sox can dump him and use the money to get someone else this off season.

Lip

gosox41
08-06-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Me neither!

But do you think booing an ineffective player who is already giving his all will somehow make him more effective? Seems highly unlikely to me. Seems much more likely that constant booing of a player who is trying his hardest but isn't seeing success, will add to his stress and frustration and increase the possibility that he won't get out of his funk.

I'm pissed that Koch has sucked, and I'm pissed that KW traded Foulke for him. I'm pissed that he's making big money this year and next. But I think he is working his ass off to get better, and as a Sox fan, I desperately want him to succeed - and I think it is more likely that raining down boos on him will diminish his chances for success than it is for those boos to somehow spur him on to a better performance.

I honestly don't think me booing Koch is going to effect his confidence that much.

But the reason I boo him is frustration. Mostly frustration with him. I want to win. I want Koch to live up to all the overhyping he got last year. Maybe it's years of frustration, or maybe it'sme just realizing how incompetent Sox management can be at times. But Koch is not helping this team win while making a ton of money. He is not the only one I boo. I love booing JM because he is the main source of my frustrations. But those are really the only 2 I boo. I don't get on guys like Crede or Olivo because they're young. While Valentin is hitting in the .230 range, he plays with heart so I don't get on him I won't boo Schoeneweis because it's not his fault KW made a satupid trade by acquiring him. But I will boo Koch continue to boo Koch. It may not be his fault he's making all that money, but it is his fault he sucks. He's cost the team a lot more games then Valentin. Unless someone else is actually throwing the ball for him, I'll keep booing him as long as he sucks.

Bob

gosox41
08-06-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Maybe it's me but that booing was NOT directed towards Koch. it was directed in torrents at Manager Moron who put him in, let him throw all of four pitches then removed him.

Koch can learn how to pitch again in the Winter league South of the border this off season.

For right now considering the Sox trail the Royals and have a brutal schedule (compared to them) Koch is a luxury the Sox can't afford. He pitches when they have a ten run lead in a game or a ten game lead in the division.

Till then he rots on the bench. If he doesn't like it let him demand a trade and return his salary so the Sox can dump him and use the money to get someone else this off season.

Lip

For the record, I booed Koch. Then I booed Manuel even more.

I think Koch is untradeable at his salary. It's not realistic to expect him to return it so he better start living up to those expectations soon. If not, he's a waste of space who is making no positive on the field contribution to the team.

Bob

FJA
08-06-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I honestly don't think me booing Koch is going to effect his confidence that much.

But the reason I boo him is frustration. Mostly frustration with him. I want to win. I want Koch to live up to all the overhyping he got last year. Maybe it's years of frustration, or maybe it'sme just realizing how incompetent Sox management can be at times. But Koch is not helping this team win while making a ton of money. He is not the only one I boo. I love booing JM because he is the main source of my frustrations. But those are really the only 2 I boo. I don't get on guys like Crede or Olivo because they're young. While Valentin is hitting in the .230 range, he plays with heart so I don't get on him I won't boo Schoeneweis because it's not his fault KW made a satupid trade by acquiring him. But I will boo Koch continue to boo Koch. It may not be his fault he's making all that money, but it is his fault he sucks. He's cost the team a lot more games then Valentin. Unless someone else is actually throwing the ball for him, I'll keep booing him as long as he sucks.

Bob

Bob, I think you're off the mark here. While I agree getting on guys like Crede and Olivo is a horrible idea since they're still young, you say you don't boo Valentin because he plays with heart. I also don't boo Valentin for the same reason. But did you read the Southtown article that was posted here last week? Koch is no Rick White, blaming everyone else for his troubles. He's a guy who's working hard to try and do something for this team. (As is Valentin, whose .230 average is far from stellar.) It's not working, and quite frankly, I feel sorry for him in that respect. He obviously wants to help the team. He and Valentin, whether on the bench or the field, are the two guys I can always look over and see cheering--they both care about the team first. By your logic, if you're going to boo Koch for being mostly ineffective, you have to boo Valentin as well. You're applying a real double-standard by not doing so.

I'm not going applaud Koch simply for his effort, but I'm also not going to make him feel like a jackass for trying.

hold2dibber
08-06-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
But the reason I boo him is frustration. Mostly frustration with him. I want to win. I want Koch to live up to all the overhyping he got last year. Maybe it's years of frustration, or maybe it'sme just realizing how incompetent Sox management can be at times. But Koch is not helping this team win while making a ton of money. He is not the only one I boo. I love booing JM because he is the main source of my frustrations. But those are really the only 2 I boo. I don't get on guys like Crede or Olivo because they're young. While Valentin is hitting in the .230 range, he plays with heart so I don't get on him I won't boo Schoeneweis because it's not his fault KW made a satupid trade by acquiring him. But I will boo Koch continue to boo Koch. It may not be his fault he's making all that money, but it is his fault he sucks. He's cost the team a lot more games then Valentin. Unless someone else is actually throwing the ball for him, I'll keep booing him as long as he sucks.

Bob

I understand where you're coming from, I just think it might be counterproductive to boo him, whereas I highly doubt it could possibly help things. I vent, just not at a guy who I think is giving it his all. JM, on the other hand, deserves boos, and lots of 'em.

gosox41
08-07-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by FJA
Bob, I think you're off the mark here. While I agree getting on guys like Crede and Olivo is a horrible idea since they're still young, you say you don't boo Valentin because he plays with heart. I also don't boo Valentin for the same reason. But did you read the Southtown article that was posted here last week? Koch is no Rick White, blaming everyone else for his troubles. He's a guy who's working hard to try and do something for this team. (As is Valentin, whose .230 average is far from stellar.) It's not working, and quite frankly, I feel sorry for him in that respect. He obviously wants to help the team. He and Valentin, whether on the bench or the field, are the two guys I can always look over and see cheering--they both care about the team first. By your logic, if you're going to boo Koch for being mostly ineffective, you have to boo Valentin as well. You're applying a real double-standard by not doing so.

I'm not going applaud Koch simply for his effort, but I'm also not going to make him feel like a jackass for trying.

Maybe I do have a double standard. There's just something I like about Valentin. Always positive, willing to pay anywhere, indirectly speaking out about Sox managment, showing up Sosa.....

I guess I consider Koch a bigger bust then Valentin. Maybe deep down my booing of Koch is only because KW isn't on the field to boo. As much as I was against that Koch trade, I never thought Koch would be this bad.

Bob