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View Full Version : freakin manuel needs to give koch a chance..


inta
08-05-2003, 10:47 PM
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....

kittle42
08-05-2003, 10:50 PM
I have a few suggestions for psychoanalysts for you. Either that or, hmm, let's see....oh, you'd be perfect for a White Sox front-office or bench job!

pudge
08-05-2003, 10:54 PM
Koch should not have sniffed this game. JM was about five feet from blowing another one. Of course, if he had managed his bullpen last night, Gordon wouldn't be burned out.

doublem23
08-05-2003, 10:59 PM
I agree that Koch need chances to regain his pedigree... In blowout games. He's been given plenty of opprotunities to prove himself and has done nothing. In games as big as this, you don't use your "B" list pitchers.

inta
08-05-2003, 11:00 PM
gimme a f'n break.
foulke got a second chance towards the end of last year and look at him now.
really, how long ago were those tampa/twins series where he f'd up?

i aint saying put him in as closer, but give the guy more than 4 pitches, that just makes no sense at all.

FoulTerritory
08-05-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....

This quote is a goldmine for those of us who have been very curious about how Manuel's brain works. Amazingly though, it is even more delusional in craving to see Koch in the game than even JM. Woah.

doublem23
08-05-2003, 11:01 PM
Foulke did not get a chance to close again. He was used in other relief roles. But here's the difference... Foulke deserved to get chances at closing. He had a ERA under 1 for the 2nd half of last season. Koch is still a flame-thrower.

Don't compare Keith Foulke to Billy Koch. One of them is vastly better than the other.

:keith
Suckas!

WinningUgly!
08-05-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....

Koch is fresh out of chances. He got to face a righty, didn't get the job done...next?

BTW...we already "re-signed" Koch for next year, so we get to look forward to him blowing away our 9th innings in '04. :angry:

SoxxoS
08-05-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Koch is fresh out of chances. He got to face a righty, didn't get the job done...next?

BTW...we already "re-signed" Koch for next year, so we get to look forward to him blowing away our 9th innings in '04. :angry:

If Todd Hundley can be traded, so can Billy Koch.


If we trade him though, you know FOR A FACT that he will regain his velocity and be a good closer next year.

If we keep him, he will continue to suck.

MarqSox
08-05-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....

You are crazy.

kittle42
08-05-2003, 11:10 PM
Inta,

Do you realize the difference between '02 Foulke and '03 Koch? Foulke excelled once being taken out of the closer spot. Koch has been just as bad as he was before being removed as closer.

One earned his way back. The other has not.

inta
08-05-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
[B]Foulke did not get a chance to close again. He was used in other relief roles. But here's the difference... Foulke deserved to get chances at closing. He had a ERA under 1 for the 2nd half of last season. Koch is still a flame-thrower.

Don't compare Keith Foulke to Billy Koch. One of them is vastly better than the other.


like i said, dont put koch in closing, but putting a guy in a game and only letting him only get 4 pitches in is ridiculous. you're just ****ing with the guys head then and he'll never improve...

foulke was given a chance to improve last year, give koch that same chance.

eerily koch has the same amount of saves at the moment as foulke did all last year.

inta
08-05-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
Inta,

Do you realize the difference between '02 Foulke and '03 Koch? Foulke excelled once being taken out of the closer spot. Koch has been just as bad as he was before being removed as closer.

One earned his way back. The other has not.

what chances has he gotten?

seriously, he's been hardly used or not used at all for over a month now.

MarqSox
08-05-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by inta
what chances has he gotten?

seriously, he's been hardly used or not used at all for over a month now.

That's because we're in a pennant race and we need to win baseball games. Hello?

doublem23
08-05-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by inta

eerily koch has the same amount of saves at the moment as foulke did all last year.

Not eerily, Foulke's ERA was like 4 points lower than Koch's at this same point. You think if Keith was brought in last year and he gave up a double right off the bat in a HUGE must-win game he wouldn't have been pulled?

Foulke pitched a lot because he was pitching well when he got opprotunities. Koch gets 4 pitches because he pitches poorly. He was given a chance; that's what you asked for. He blew it. Too bad. Cry me a river, Billy. :whiner:

WinningUgly!
08-05-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by inta
what chances has he gotten?

seriously, he's been hardly used or not used at all for over a month now.

And just look at the Sox record over the last month.
You must be his agent. :)

inta
08-05-2003, 11:22 PM
ROFL
yeah, a leadoff double is blowing it...
perhaps you should turn your nervous nelly filter on higher.

every other player has gotten more of a chance than koch.

Lip Man 1
08-05-2003, 11:24 PM
If the Sox had a ten game lead I'd say use him but they don't.

In The Sporting News this week a scout talks about Koch and says he looks totally lost on the mound all he's doing is trying to throw the ball.

Lip

MarqSox
08-05-2003, 11:25 PM
This is an asinine debate.

doublem23
08-05-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by inta
ROFL
yeah, a leadoff double is blowing it...
perhaps you should turn your nervous nelly filter on higher

All right, pal... I just crossed you off my list of possible JM replacements.

WinningUgly!
08-05-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by inta
ROFL
yeah, a leadoff double is blowing it...
perhaps you should turn your nervous nelly filter on higher

Yeah, Koch has shown all year long that he has the ability to bounce back and get the next guy out, right? We all know what would have happened if he was allowed to stick around & face another batter. That double was a rocket that ripped the webbing right out of Maggs' glove.

inta
08-05-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
This is an asinine debate.

then why are you reading it?
:)

whatever, flame away guys, it's a white sox winner anway.
i still believe there's a good pitcher in that guy.

MarqSox
08-05-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by inta
i still believe there's a good pitcher in that guy.

I happen to agree with you ... but now is NOT the time to find it.

Daver
08-05-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If the Sox had a ten game lead I'd say use him but they don't.

In The Sporting News this week a scout talks about Koch and says he looks totally lost on the mound all he's doing is trying to throw the ball.

Lip

Your scout is confusing lost with changing mechanics.

At the start of this season Billy Koch was falling off the mound with his follow through on every pitch,something he has done since entering the league,the Sox have decided to remedy that.Guys that fall off the mound throwing the ball have two problems,they don't have a lot of control over the pitch,and they tend to blow their arms up,in his last six appearances Koch has had a controlled follow through with all his pitches,that does not take him off the mound,yes it has cost him some velocity,but in the long run a pitcher that can throw hard with control is a lot more valuable than one that just throws hard.I bet Coop can get him to throw a slider to boot.

gosox3072
08-05-2003, 11:49 PM
Why would you EVER leave koch in in the bottom of the eighth inning against the first place team when we are winning by 3 runs. I wouldnt have put him in in the first place. Every time he comes in he gives up a run! Whatever way that it happens Koch is not a good pitcher, in fact he is our most unreliable pitcher period. Manuel gave koch a chance. He was looking to get 1 out. 1 OUT! When he couldnt get the job done manuel put someone else in. the bottom of the 8th inning vs the first place team that we are chasing is not a very good time for manuel to let koch prove himself. First koch needs to prove himself when were ahead 9-1, or losing 8-6. i believe those where the last times he was in, and he didnt get the job done then and he wont now.

Billy Koch is a good pitcher, but not this year. Give him the offseason to regain his fastball and his control and maybe next year we will have a dominant closer.

For the record GOOD JOB MANUEL taking koch out after 1 batter

TRL
08-05-2003, 11:50 PM
At least his velocity looked respectable tonight.

SoxOnTop
08-05-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by daver
Your scout is confusing lost with changing mechanics.

At the start of this season Billy Koch was falling off the mound with his follow through on every pitch,something he has done since entering the league,the Sox have decided to remedy that.Guys that fall off the mound throwing the ball have two problems,they don't have a lot of control over the pitch,and they tend to blow their arms up,in his last six appearances Koch has had a controlled follow through with all his pitches,that does not take him off the mound,yes it has cost him some velocity,but in the long run a pitcher that can throw hard with control is a lot more valuable than one that just throws hard.I bet Coop can get him to throw a slider to boot.

Nothin' like takin' the Roliads relief man of the year and messing with his mechanics. :(: Sox have done it again.

WILL THE TINKERING EVER STOP!!! It's even infected the rest of the coaching staff.

Hey Bartolo, I know you won 20 games last year, but we think you should be doing things differently......

F***'n Sox.

SoxOnTop
08-05-2003, 11:54 PM
BTW, why do I seem to spend more time angry with the Sox then actually enjoying them. I guess it's just South Side Syndrome...

cheeses_h_rice
08-06-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....

I was at the game, and I heartily booed Jerry Manuel for bringing Koch in at that point, and I booed Koch when he gave up the inevitable POUNDED double.

Koch threw 3 pitches, only one of them a strike, before allowing a POUNDED double by Ken Harvey, a scrub player on the Royals. At that point, the Sox were leading 5-2 with a man on first. So, what did you want Manuel to do -- let Koch put another guy on base to bring the tying run to the plate? Christalmighty, this is the most important series of the year; Koch shouldn't have even had a chance to come in a game this close. Manuel's a bonehead and an ass for trying to soothe Koch's ego just because he blew out the arms of all the righties in the bullpen last night. End of story.

Koch may find his redemption in the future. I for one hope it's on a team not named the White Sox.

kermittheefrog
08-06-2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....

Koch doesn't deserve more opportunity because he was overrated in the first place. If he was as good as Foulke you'd have a point. You only have to go back to 2001 to find a year when Koch was this bad. Foulke had been excellent for 3 straight years when Manuel mistakenly gave up on him.

kermittheefrog
08-06-2003, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Nothin' like takin' the Roliads relief man of the year and messing with his mechanics. :(: Sox have done it again.

WILL THE TINKERING EVER STOP!!! It's even infected the rest of the coaching staff.

Hey Bartolo, I know you won 20 games last year, but we think you should be doing things differently......

F***'n Sox.

Improving the mechanics of a pitcher who is struggling = good.

Taking your good players out the lineup all too often = tinkering.

There's a difference.

jabrch
08-06-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....


I think the poster is right...Koch deserves a chance to do something important for this team. I'd propose we give him some options...
1) Pitch batting practice
2) fold and press Marte/Gordon's uniforms
3) Serve hotdogs (no ketchup of else)
4) Batboy/Batgirl
5) Dust off the old Ribbie and Roobard costumes...(I don't care if he is Ribbie or Roobarb, but can we get Foulke to do the other?)
6) Hold Manuel's clipboard...not that Jerry has any use for a clipboard

any other ideas?

jabrch
08-06-2003, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by TRL
At least his velocity looked respectable tonight.

Who cares? If it is dead straigt, all the velocity in the world doesn't matter. That's what makes Rivera and Gagne such good closers...they throw mid 90s, but their balls move. Rivera's cutter drops a ton and Gagne throws the riser....both are hard to hit cuz while they go that fast, they have late movement. Koch at 95 is still easy to hit cuz he is dead straight.

We need to continue to pitch him in blowouts like we have until he finds rythm. But in a close game....nope...not gonna do it...wouldn't be prudent....not at this juncture. NOT WHILE WE ARE IN A PENNANT RACE.

Hangar18
08-06-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.



That Run that was "allowed" was Everetts Fault for not charging the ball and acting like a Center Fielder. As for Koch coming into the game.....NO WAY. He is not good right now...and if he wouldve come in and gave up that homer.....he wouldve absorbed a Thunderous Rain of Boos of biblical proportions, further eroding what confidence he has left. I agree, we need to get him into blowout games every chance we get. Hes doing us No Good just sitting on the bench, and he needs to work things out, for his sanity and ours. The pitching staff cant just let him waste away..... Imagine if they eventually get him straightened out how much better the Sox will be?

gosox41
08-06-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by inta
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got more of a chance blowing the game yesterday than koch has gotten in months.

you know we wont re-sign koch, he'll get snatched for cheap by some other team and blow everyone away next year in saves making KW and manuel look like tool sacks again....

He's under contract next year for $6 mill. We're stuck with this fool.

Bob

bobj4400
08-06-2003, 09:47 AM
Who watched the game on FSN? When Koch was trotting in from the bullpen, the cameraman panned the crowd and focused on one fan's reaction. It was a younger guy (maybe 20 or so) and he had his hands fold over the back of his head and he was just shaking in disbelief. It was absolutely priceless. Did anybody else catch this? It actually made me stop cursing out Manuel and start laughing.

gosox41
08-06-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by gosox3072
Why would you EVER leave koch in in the bottom of the eighth inning against the first place team when we are winning by 3 runs. I wouldnt have put him in in the first place. Every time he comes in he gives up a run! Whatever way that it happens Koch is not a good pitcher, in fact he is our most unreliable pitcher period. Manuel gave koch a chance. He was looking to get 1 out. 1 OUT! When he couldnt get the job done manuel put someone else in. the bottom of the 8th inning vs the first place team that we are chasing is not a very good time for manuel to let koch prove himself. First koch needs to prove himself when were ahead 9-1, or losing 8-6. i believe those where the last times he was in, and he didnt get the job done then and he wont now.

Billy Koch is a good pitcher, but not this year. Give him the offseason to regain his fastball and his control and maybe next year we will have a dominant closer.

For the record GOOD JOB MANUEL taking koch out after 1 batter

Manuel is an idiot for even bringing him in the game. Don't pitch Koch unless the Sox are up or down more then 5 runs.

Bob

Chisox353014
08-06-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
Who watched the game on FSN? When Koch was trotting in from the bullpen, the cameraman panned the crowd and focused on one fan's reaction. It was a younger guy (maybe 20 or so) and he had his hands fold over the back of his head and he was just shaking in disbelief. It was absolutely priceless. Did anybody else catch this? It actually made me stop cursing out Manuel and start laughing.

LOL. Yeah, I was watching the game at a bar with several members of my softball team and we all saw that and started laughing. It summed up everyone's reaction pretty well.

MarqSox
08-06-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Chisox353014
LOL. Yeah, I was watching the game at a bar with several members of my softball team and we all saw that and started laughing. It summed up everyone's reaction pretty well.

I missed that one, but I did laugh at the game-ending flyout (that is, after the fact, when I regained my ability to breathe).

There was a guy in the first row of the bleachers near the batter's eye, and his expression was priceless. Before it was clear that it wouldn't be a home run, you could see him mutter "Oh s***" and slowly put his hands up to his face. As the ball came down, he slouched back in his chair, looked up to the sky, then rocked forward and put his head in his hands.

I would've done the exact same thing, I think that's why it was so funny. :gulp:

ma-gaga
08-06-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
Who watched the game on FSN? When Koch was trotting in from the bullpen, the cameraman panned the crowd and focused on one fan's reaction. It was a younger guy (maybe 20 or so) and he had his hands fold over the back of his head and he was just shaking in disbelief. It was absolutely priceless. Did anybody else catch this? It actually made me stop cursing out Manuel and start laughing.

something like this?

:ohno

I agree with Inta. Koch is not any worse of a pitcher than he was last year. Well, let me amend that, when the Sox traded for him he was a decent pitcher. He puts a lot of people on base. He's ALWAYS put people on base, but he's a good pitcher.

Then the Sox started MESSING with him.

That was the worst mistake they made. They messed with a major leaguer. How the **** do they get off screwing with a guys mechanics?!? The guy throws upper 90's heat with no control. There's ways to use guys like this. Seriously, the guy has two things going for him:

1.) velocity
2.) rubber arm

Jerry Manual has compounded the mistake by not using Koch correctly. He may know how to manage 'by the book', but he hasn't been able to figure out how to use useful parts.

Koch has value, but the Sox ruined it. Absolutely shameful. The only way they trade Koch is to pay for his salary next year. There's no other way any sane GM will let KW off the hook for such a terrible management/planning. :angry:

kempsted
08-06-2003, 12:17 PM
chrissakes he only gets 4 pitches?
so he allowed a double, big whoop, loaiza allowed a run in his first inning.

koch has the good pitcher in him, but we'll never see it unless manuel gives him a chance, i mean wunsch got


Reality. Koch has gotten many chances to pitch since his blown save in TB. Almost everytime out he gives up at least one run. His ERA is 9 since 7/4. He only has one game in which he has not given up a hit and only 3 without at least one run given up. That blown save was 7/4 his numbers for July (includes the win against Minn) and so far in August

IP H ER BB SO
12 18 12 7 10

The only encouraging number is the 10 Strikeouts.

Manuel shouldn't have brought him in in the situation he was bringing him in, but as I told the guy sitting next to me when he was complaining as the brought him in, it will be alright if they give him a very short rope. If he gives up anything we should pull him. Can't fault Manuel for pulling him - only for putting him in.

Gumshoe
08-06-2003, 01:27 PM
I've hated the Koch trade for a long time and i say he sucks, yes, but there is some time that you have to use him, isn't there? I mean, he's on the roster and he's getting paid, oh yeah he was involved in one of the worst trades of modern history ...

wait ... we didn't pitch glover ... never mind. I guess you can have far more than 1 guy on a team that doesn't play at all, even though you throw guys like Rick White out there all the time to blow games ... and then release them

I don't know what this organization (KW) is thinking ...

Gumshoe

MarqSox
08-06-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I mean, he's on the roster and he's getting paid, oh yeah he was involved in one of the worst trades of modern history ...


At least you aren't overstating it.

Gumshoe
08-07-2003, 11:39 AM
Exactly ... hey, MarqSox, what are the chances Wesley Clark can win the democratic nomination?

All other Dems are losers, and while I support Bush on some measures, on others I don't ... (sorry for the non Sox question)

Gumshoe

Jerko
08-07-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
He's under contract next year for $6 mill. We're stuck with this fool.

Bob

Hopefully somebody else will be gone next year and Koch can rebound, giving us further ammo to say "I told you so" if in fact that certain "somebody else" is in fact gone next year.

MarqSox
08-07-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Exactly ... hey, MarqSox, what are the chances Wesley Clark can win the democratic nomination?

All other Dems are losers, and while I support Bush on some measures, on others I don't ... (sorry for the non Sox question)

Gumshoe

This will rightfully get moved to the Parking Lot shortly, but I believe he will win the nomination if he declares his candidacy, which looks to be a 50-50 proposition.