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View Full Version : Kenny Williams still has done NOTHING


Gumshoe
08-05-2003, 01:35 PM
First off, let me say that I think the Sox have a sporting chance of making it to the playoffs. But after seeing again the ineptitude of JM last night, of course it has us all wondering if they will in fact win in a relatively weak division.

Now for my main point:

I have seen many guys arguing on air and radio talking about how KW has done this and that, how he made moves that spurred this great winning streak (and now losing streak), how he "stayed with Manuel to prove that the naysayers were wrong", yadda yadda, etc.

The White Sox are FAR away from being what a true winning team is, that is, a consistent winner a la Seattle. They go on streaks and it goes to show you how bad Manuel is at handling things. Our major weakness, the bullpen, is JM's MAJOR weakness. KW traded away the best closer in the game for a nobody, dropped one of his signees a week ago, and hasn't picked up a decent right hander (Schoenweis hurts so far and this is when we could use Glover after the White debacle --- 3 months too late, KW).

I just wanted to remind you that the team of JM and KW has done NOTHING. They are far from guaranteed anything, and everyone is acting like KW has done a great job! This is really foolish.

GIVE A GM credit if he wins. So far, KW hasn't won ANYTHING . If he does, I will give him credit. I am still not a believer though ... and Manuel will blow another one that will come up costly, although the offense might save him. Might.

Gumshoe

NewyorkSoxFan
08-05-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
First off, let me say that I think the Sox have a sporting chance of making it to the playoffs. But after seeing again the ineptitude of JM last night, of course it has us all wondering if they will in fact win in a relatively weak division.

Now for my main point:

I have seen many guys arguing on air and radio talking about how KW has done this and that, how he made moves that spurred this great winning streak (and now losing streak), how he "stayed with Manuel to prove that the naysayers were wrong", yadda yadda, etc.

The White Sox are FAR away from being what a true winning team is, that is, a consistent winner a la Seattle. They go on streaks and it goes to show you how bad Manuel is at handling things. Our major weakness, the bullpen, is JM's MAJOR weakness. KW traded away the best closer in the game for a nobody, dropped one of his signees a week ago, and hasn't picked up a decent right hander (Schoenweis hurts so far and this is when we could use Glover after the White debacle --- 3 months too late, KW).

I just wanted to remind you that the team of JM and KW has done NOTHING. They are far from guaranteed anything, and everyone is acting like KW has done a great job! This is really foolish.

GIVE A GM credit if he wins. So far, KW hasn't won ANYTHING . If he does, I will give him credit. I am still not a believer though ... and Manuel will blow another one that will come up costly, although the offense might save him. Might.

Gumshoe


First of all, b/c they had a very tough loss which I too blame on JM can we stop with the "SKY IS FALLING" routine, it gets old. To say that KW has done nothing is just ridiculous. Those moves did help propel this team in the Minn series, and yea they had a tough trip but they came out of the break and played well.

Secondly what has Seattle won, the won over 100 games and didn't even make it to the ALCS, so don't tell me about Seattle.

He did not trade the best closer in the game- I don't know what games you have been watching but last time I checked- Rivera, Smoltz, and even Percival (when healthy) are better closers than Foulke. So could we please let that one die as well.

You don't have to give KW credit, and I am sure he is unconcerned, but he has made more creative moves to improve this team than any GM we have had in the last 25 years. Have they all worked? NO. But what did Schu ever do other than hold onto prospects to long, only to see their trade value bottom out when they proved to be nothing more than over-hyped AAA players.

If KW is guilty of anything its Loyalty. Loyalty to JM who is gonna cost him a chance at this team winning the central.


NYSF

OEO Magglio
08-05-2003, 02:05 PM
I really believe KW has put together a really good team to stick on the field, his trades during this season were pretty good, yes the Koch trade hasn't worked out yet we all know that, but besides the Koch trade the biggest mistake KW has made is not firing JM.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
First off, let me say that I think the Sox have a sporting chance of making it to the playoffs. But after seeing again the ineptitude of JM last night, of course it has us all wondering if they will in fact win in a relatively weak division.

Now for my main point:

I have seen many guys arguing on air and radio talking about how KW has done this and that, how he made moves that spurred this great winning streak (and now losing streak), how he "stayed with Manuel to prove that the naysayers were wrong", yadda yadda, etc.

The White Sox are FAR away from being what a true winning team is, that is, a consistent winner a la Seattle. They go on streaks and it goes to show you how bad Manuel is at handling things. Our major weakness, the bullpen, is JM's MAJOR weakness. KW traded away the best closer in the game for a nobody, dropped one of his signees a week ago, and hasn't picked up a decent right hander (Schoenweis hurts so far and this is when we could use Glover after the White debacle --- 3 months too late, KW).

I just wanted to remind you that the team of JM and KW has done NOTHING. They are far from guaranteed anything, and everyone is acting like KW has done a great job! This is really foolish.

GIVE A GM credit if he wins. So far, KW hasn't won ANYTHING . If he does, I will give him credit. I am still not a believer though ... and Manuel will blow another one that will come up costly, although the offense might save him. Might.

Gumshoe

There we're 2 awful, awful, awful trades KW made. The first was the Todd Ritchie debacle. The second was the Foulke/Koch deal. These trades we're so bad on clearly bad on paper that it should have been a no brainer. I was in a white sox NG when the Ritchie trade happened and was against it then. I was posting here when the Foulke/Koch trade happened and if anyone wants to read my posts from the day the rumor came out, I was 100% against it.

Imagine how much better this team would be if Fogg, Wells, and Foulke were still here. The bullpen would be set. The 5 starters would be set. And I'd feel a lot more confident about winning the division, though the Sox would probably have a better record because of having these guys all season.

Now I know it makes no sense to wonder "what if" such as "What if KW weren't such a moron who got bamboozled on those 2 trades?" but as a Sox fan, what else is there????

So KW has done a lot...to bad it's to insure this team won't win the division.

Bob

FJA
08-05-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
First off, let me say that I think the Sox have a sporting chance of making it to the playoffs. But after seeing again the ineptitude of JM last night, of course it has us all wondering if they will in fact win in a relatively weak division.

Now for my main point:

I have seen many guys arguing on air and radio talking about how KW has done this and that, how he made moves that spurred this great winning streak (and now losing streak), how he "stayed with Manuel to prove that the naysayers were wrong", yadda yadda, etc.

The White Sox are FAR away from being what a true winning team is, that is, a consistent winner a la Seattle. They go on streaks and it goes to show you how bad Manuel is at handling things. Our major weakness, the bullpen, is JM's MAJOR weakness. KW traded away the best closer in the game for a nobody, dropped one of his signees a week ago, and hasn't picked up a decent right hander (Schoenweis hurts so far and this is when we could use Glover after the White debacle --- 3 months too late, KW).

I just wanted to remind you that the team of JM and KW has done NOTHING. They are far from guaranteed anything, and everyone is acting like KW has done a great job! This is really foolish.

GIVE A GM credit if he wins. So far, KW hasn't won ANYTHING . If he does, I will give him credit. I am still not a believer though ... and Manuel will blow another one that will come up costly, although the offense might save him. Might.

Gumshoe

I think the excuse that the manager doesn't step in the batter's box, etc. is a bad one, since a manager can certainly affect the outcome of a game (see last night's game).

But to blame KW for not winning just doesn't make sense. When everyone in the media was deciding what players the Sox were going to give to what team, KW went out and gave the team tools to win and to shut the "analysts" up. KW made this team better, and I know you don't think so, Gumshoe, since you would love to see Aaron Rowand as your team's starting CF and D'Angelo Jimenez as the starting 2B. But Alomar has made the infield markedly better defensively, and, even though he's not hitting for power, he is a great asset to the TEAM offensively, unlike one D'Angelo Jimenez. Everett ... the jury's still out. He's always been a streaky hitter, and if his August and September is anything like his April and May, I can definitely live with his defense. We brought him here for his bat, after all, and when it's good, it's really good.

Furthermore, KW got these guys cheap, whereas if he were to wait, he would have had to have given up a hell of a lot more. He probably wouldn't have even gotten them. It was a great move to catch other teams with their pants down early in July.

Schoenweis ... the guy's only been here a week. Let's take another look at him in a month. As far as releasing White goes, I agree, that was a bad move without a plan to bring someone other than Danny Wright into the bullpen. On the other hand, White needed to go ... regardless of whether or not he was right in his criticism of JM, he risked really disrupting the clubhouse with his comments, and we all know this clubhouse is fragile to begin with (thanks, IMO, to JM's lack of skill in the personel management department). On top of that, his performance just wasn't there. He was horrible at the beginning of the year, and while he looked better for a while, he was never exactly lights out.

Koch/Foulke ... a bad trade, but NOBODY could have known it would be this bad. Foulke was pretty unhappy here about not being a starter, and we probably wouldn't have resigned him, so from a business POV, it wasn't that bad. Talentwise, I agree, he has better stuff than Koch, and always did. However, do you think KW would have made that trade if he knew Koch would have 5 mph (minimum) off of his fastball. No way in hell. If Koch is throwing heat and performing like he did the last two years, he has a lot more saves and he's not catching all the jeers from us ... rightfully so for his performance, perhaps unfairly for his clubhouse attitude, which is great. (He is one guy on the team who I never question whether he's working for the team or himself.)

Let's not forget Colon, which wasn't all KW's doing, but either way, KW had something to do with him landing in Chicago. KW brought in Flash as well, and back to White for a second, that didn't look like such a bad move at the time. Though KW says he got lucky with Loaiza, there are reports from other GMs that KW thought at the beginning of the season he might have found a diamond in the rough. I highly doubt KW thought he could be as good as he has been, but he deserves some credit for bringing in Loaiza as well.

Point is, KW put what should be a winning team on the field. That is his job. He has done his job, and IMO, he has done it both aggressively and well. The team occasionally doesn't perform like a winning team, but I don't place any blame on KW for that. We can talk about things that Manuel has and hasn't done, and we can talk about players not playing like they should, but I think given KW's moves and the little he gave up to make them, he deserves a lot of credit.

Gumshoe
08-05-2003, 02:10 PM
If he is guilty of anything it is stupidity combined with aggressiveness. Sure, he's done well on the small moves (Olivo, Marte, etc.) but when it really matters, he choked on the big ones (ritchie, wells, Foulke) ... creative schmative. What has he won?

He hasn't been to the playoffs for like 3-4 years straight so don't scoff at Seattle. You know as well as I that it's pretty much random what happens in those 5 game series, and if you win a 7 gamer, if you are as good as the other team, which I believe SEA was (they won 116 in a season, for the love of God!)

Loyalty? The manager may be the one thing that kills the team. Stupidity, my friend, not loyalty ...

Gumshoe

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by FJA
I think the excuse that the manager doesn't step in the batter's box, etc. is a bad one, since a manager can certainly affect the outcome of a game (see last night's game).

move to catch other teams with their pants down early in July.


Koch/Foulke ... a bad trade, but NOBODY could have known it would be this bad. Foulke was pretty unhappy here about not being a starter, and we probably wouldn't have resigned him, so from a business POV, it wasn't that bad. Talentwise, I agree, he has better stuff than Koch, and always did. However, do you think KW would have made that trade if he knew Koch would have 5 mph (minimum) off of his fastball. No way in hell. If Koch is throwing heat and performing like he did the last two years, he has a lot more saves and he's not catching all the jeers from us ... rightfully so for his performance, perhaps unfairly for his clubhouse attitude, which is great. (He is one guy on the team who I never question whether he's working for the team or himself.)



Bad is bad. The Koch trade never should have been made to begin with. The fact that it's turned out worse then expected shows how inept KW is. He didn't take into conisderation the fact that he was dealing with a genius like Billy Beane and that Koch is a one pitch pitcher who was used a ton last year.

As for his 3 mid season pick ups, here are my opinions of them. Take it for what it's worth, but I've posted similar posts in threads within days of the trades being made.

1. Roberto Alomar-Liked the deal. Gave up a waste of a first round pick in middle reliever Royce Ring. Never should have been drafted to begin with. I had concerns about how much Alomar had left in the tank, but thought he was worth the risk.

2. Everett- I was slightly negative on him at the time. I thought the Sox gave up a lot for a CFer who can't play CF. KW still hasn't addressed a weakness that has been here since he took over as GM.

3. Schoeneweis-Read my "I don't like the Schoenweis trade" thread I started. I basically questioned why he was better then Glover, especially at getting right handers out. I also don't think he'll make a good #5 starter next season.

Bob

OEO Magglio
08-05-2003, 02:13 PM
Gumshoe, don't you atleast think that KW has put together a good enough team to win the central division, and maybe even go a little further? I don't think there is much debate of the talent of this team, the only problem with the sox has been there mental approach which should fall on the manager not the gm.

SoxxoS
08-05-2003, 02:15 PM
First off, In terms of saying Keith Foulke is the "best closer in baseball" that is probably the funniest thing I have heard all day. Eric Gagne/John Smoltz/Percival/Rivera make Foulke look a tad above average which is what he is.

Let's not forget that Foulke folds under high pressure situations, so it will be very interesting to see when/if the A's make the playoffs.

As for KW...whether or not you agree with it, he is LEARNING ON THE JOB. JR offered the position, and KW took it. All of you would have taken the job in his situation, you would be silly not to. He is making some major progress and still has bankroll restrictions that people rarely mention (other than Lip, of course). All in all I am HAPPY that KW is our GM and are confident that he will get us to the playoffs, and possibly beyond. Better him that Dan Evans...I would love to see what KW can do with a $115 million dollar payroll.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan

Secondly what has Seattle won, the won over 100 games and didn't even make it to the ALCS, so don't tell me about Seattle.



NYSF


So let me understand your logic. Seattle hasn't gotten far in the playoffs so I shouldn't be impressed with what they've accomplished (though if the Sox had Seattle's record each year since 2000, none of us would be complaining.)

So to you Seattle isn't that good. Now the Sox have an awful record against the M's the last 3 years (including the playoffs.) So what does that say about how good/bad the Sox are then?

I personally think Seattle is a great team. I'd take 90+ wins a year since 2000 over the crap us Sox fans with that genius KW has given us over the last few years.

Bob

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Gumshoe, don't you atleast think that KW has put together a good enough team to win the central division, and maybe even go a little further? I don't think there is much debate of the talent of this team, the only problem with the sox has been there mental approach which should fall on the manager not the gm.

Who extended the manager's contract? Who calims he has free reign to fire JM, but continues to stick with him.

Here's my theory of why KW keeps JM around. KW likes to exert his power over the team. He likes to hang out in the clubhouse and have his spies and yell at the players when they suck. Any other manager that has any pride and dignity wouldn't stand for it, especially because whatever KW is doing isn't working very well. But JM lets KW interfere with his team and the results we see is the bag of crap on the field.

Bob

NewyorkSoxFan
08-05-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
If he is guilty of anything it is stupidity combined with aggressiveness. Sure, he's done well on the small moves (Olivo, Marte, etc.) but when it really matters, he choked on the big ones (ritchie, wells, Foulke) ... creative schmative. What has he won?

He hasn't been to the playoffs for like 3-4 years straight so don't scoff at Seattle. You know as well as I that it's pretty much random what happens in those 5 game series, and if you win a 7 gamer, if you are as good as the other team, which I believe SEA was (they won 116 in a season, for the love of God!)

Loyalty? The manager may be the one thing that kills the team. Stupidity, my friend, not loyalty ...

Gumshoe


So you consider Colon a small move, you consider Alomar a small move, you consider Everrett a small move. Finding guys like Tony G, Marte, Olivo, as small moves. When will we let the Fogg, Wells trade die. You think he is the only GM thats made a bad trade. Go check Gillick, Cashman, Hart, and all the other "Great GMs' and see if they have not done that.

I don't scoff at Seattle but those teams work with a sizeable payroll in putting their teams together. To compare the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

GM's make good and bad trades its part of the business. He IMO has made more good moves than bad ones. Fogg and Wells haven't lit the world on fire, they had a nice first half last year and wells is right back to his same inconsistent self.

Its a no win with some of you, if he makes moves he's gives up too much, if he does nothing he has no gonads.

Sox Baseball Fans-- ITS A NO WIN SITUATION


NYSF

Gumshoe
08-05-2003, 02:23 PM
But to blame KW for not winning just doesn't make sense. When everyone in the media was deciding what players the Sox were going to give to what team, KW went out and gave the team tools to win and to shut the "analysts" up. KW made this team better, and I know you don't think so, Gumshoe, since you would love to see Aaron Rowand as your team's starting CF and D'Angelo Jimenez as the starting 2B. But Alomar has made the infield markedly better defensively, and, even though he's not hitting for power, he is a great asset to the TEAM offensively, unlike one D'Angelo Jimenez. Everett ... the jury's still out. He's always been a streaky hitter, and if his August and September is anything like his April and May, I can definitely live with his defense. We brought him here for his bat, after all, and when it's good, it's really good.

Isn't the GM responsible for winning? If not, please inform me what that role is for. If the manager doesn't contribute to the winnning of a team, he's gotta go. who's ultimately responsible? the GM. I'm not sure what you don't understand about that.

Let me say that I think the Schoenweis deal might have been OK, but it was good in that we didn't use Glover, so we might as well have traded him, which is backward logic. I like the Alomar deal too, I have always said that. I think getting RID of DJ was always my complaint. We didn't need to, adn he is a much better player that the others. Everett still hasn't hit enough to make him a better option than Rowand. Period.

Good job KW. Will we see results where it matters, in the win column? That is my point.

ps- the foulke as best closer in the game was to rile you up, but he was assuredly the top 5 closers over the last 3 years, and head and shoulders above Koch.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
So you consider Colon a small move, you consider Alomar a small move, you consider Everrett a small move. Finding guys like Tony G, Marte, Olivo, as small moves. When will we let the Fogg, Wells trade die. You think he is the only GM thats made a bad trade. Go check Gillick, Cashman, Hart, and all the other "Great GMs' and see if they have not done that.

I don't scoff at Seattle but those teams work with a sizeable payroll in putting their teams together. To compare the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

GM's make good and bad trades its part of the business. He IMO has made more good moves than bad ones. Fogg and Wells haven't lit the world on fire, they had a nice first half last year and wells is right back to his same inconsistent self.

Its a no win with some of you, if he makes moves he's gives up too much, if he does nothing he has no gonads.

Sox Baseball Fans-- ITS A NO WIN SITUATION


NYSF

I like the Colon, Marte, and Olivo moves. KW had nothing to do with getting Tony G. since he was claimed off waivers when Schu was GM.

I relaize GM's make bad moves, but some are so blatantly bad they shouldn;t even be considered to begin with. Like trading 2 top prospects for a pitcher 3 years removed from the waiver wire. Or trading a statistically better closer (Foulke) for a clearly lesser closer (Koch) and then signing the lesser guy to as contract extension. I would say the Sox settled for second best in the Koch trade, but they didn't even get 10th best. Second worse is more identifiable with Koch.

Bob

NewyorkSoxFan
08-05-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
So let me understand your logic. Seattle hasn't gotten far in the playoffs so I shouldn't be impressed with what they've accomplished (though if the Sox had Seattle's record each year since 2000, none of us would be complaining.)

So to you Seattle isn't that good. Now the Sox have an awful record against the M's the last 3 years (including the playoffs.) So what does that say about how good/bad the Sox are then?

I personally think Seattle is a great team. I'd take 90+ wins a year since 2000 over the crap us Sox fans with that genius KW has given us over the last few years.

Bob

NO Because you would be the guy calling for KW's head b/c the team only wins in the regular season and not the playoffs. Their fans and players are pissing and moaning b/c they didn't pick up anybody at the deadline. They felt that teams like the Yankees, Sox, Boston were agressively trying to get better.

So you see no one is happy unless there team wins it all. If the Sox averaged 95 wins and never made it to the WS you would be the first guy calling for someone's head. Mainly KW, and JM

NYSF

OEO Magglio
08-05-2003, 02:26 PM
Who extended the manager's contract? Who calims he has free reign to fire JM, but continues to stick with him.
Yeah I understand that, I'm just saying I think KW has made some good moves to put a very good team out on the field talent wise, but KW deciding not to fire JM is unacceptable, Manuel should have been gone a long time ago.

NewyorkSoxFan
08-05-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I like the Colon, Marte, and Olivo moves. KW had nothing to do with getting Tony G. since he was claimed off waivers when Schu was GM.

I relaize GM's make bad moves, but some are so blatantly bad they shouldn;t even be considered to begin with. Like trading 2 top prospects for a pitcher 3 years removed from the waiver wire. Or trading a statistically better closer (Foulke) for a clearly lesser closer (Koch) and then signing the lesser guy to as contract extension. I would say the Sox settled for second best in the Koch trade, but they didn't even get 10th best. Second worse is more identifiable with Koch.

Bob

I agree that Koch blows, but how many closer awards has Foulke won? That guy spit the bit in every big game last year when he came in and had to put up a zero. Koch is not the answer but neither is Foulke. I am so tired of hearing about Foulkes stats.
As I was told once.... Figures Lie and Liars Figure... If Keith was a bigtime Closer he would be here. We don't have one this year and we certainly didn't have one last year. Neither of them will be on the mound for the Sox if and when they win a WS. So its a moot point.

NYSF

Gumshoe
08-05-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan

GM's make good and bad trades its part of the business. He IMO has made more good moves than bad ones. Fogg and Wells haven't lit the world on fire, they had a nice first half last year and wells is right back to his same inconsistent self.

Its a no win with some of you, if he makes moves he's gives up too much, if he does nothing he has no gonads.

Sox Baseball Fans-- ITS A NO WIN SITUATION


NYSF

It's a win if WE win. He hasn't WON anything. I don't care about trying. We need to win, then it might not be giving up "too much"

Gumshoe

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
NO Because you would be the guy calling for KW's head b/c the team only wins in the regular season and not the playoffs. Their fans and players are pissing and moaning b/c they didn't pick up anybody at the deadline. They felt that teams like the Yankees, Sox, Boston were agressively trying to get better.

So you see no one is happy unless there team wins it all. If the Sox averaged 95 wins and never made it to the WS you would be the first guy calling for someone's head. Mainly KW, and JM

NYSF

No I wouldn't. I'd be thrilled the sox were going to the playoffs every yearr (as 95 wins tend to be enough to win the AL Central.)

I also realize that luck plays a big role in the playoffs (or any short series) andtake what happens with a grain of salt. Of course if the Sox did make the playoffs every year and JM started resting Ordonez and Thomas for Daubach and Rowand I'd call for his head. But overall, I'm satisfied with making the playoffs every year. I'll take my chances on going to and winning the World Series.

Also realize if this team did go to the playoffs every year attenedence would be up. More people means more money to spend filling all these holes (which KW has failed to fill in 3 years) thus making the team much better.

Bob

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Yeah I understand that, I'm just saying I think KW has made some good moves to put a very good team out on the field talent wise, but KW deciding not to fire JM is unacceptable, Manuel should have been gone a long time ago.

So KW will spend millions on acquiring the right talent, but won't spend a million or two more on hiring the right manager to manifest that talent.

Maybe he should read Jack Welch's book on the importance of strong leadership and holding people accountable for hteir actions.

Bob

NewyorkSoxFan
08-05-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
It's a win if WE win. He hasn't WON anything. I don't care about trying. We need to win, then it might not be giving up "too much"

Gumshoe


So he isn't trying to win? I know I am not qualified to be a GM, but I wish some of you had a chance to do it, b/c the fans want it all. You want to give up garbage in trades and get great players back, you wanna pay FA's 12 million dollars, all sorts of things.

If it was easy as it looked everybody would be doing it. Hey the guy is going for it and trying to win. Go ask Dan Evans what his fans think b/c he is holding onto his prospects b/c he afraid he might lose a trade. They think he SUCKS and he won't be there to see them anyway.

NYSF

MarqSox
08-05-2003, 02:38 PM
I got in on this complex conversation late, so I'll just say: I disagree with 99% of what Gumshoe and gosox41 have written. KW has done his job, and done it remarkably well. If you make a trade and it doesn't work out, that doesn't automatically make it a bad trade, as much as you'd like to oversimplify the situation.

And please, please, please, can we stop with the emotional rollercoaster? Bitch bitch bitch, that's all I read when I come to this board the day after a loss. Look at the big picture for once, PLEASE. The Sox are still in it, KW has done his job, the players are good and they will win the division.

NewyorkSoxFan
08-05-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
No I wouldn't. I'd be thrilled the sox were going to the playoffs every yearr (as 95 wins tend to be enough to win the AL Central.)

I also realize that luck plays a big role in the playoffs (or any short series) andtake what happens with a grain of salt. Of course if the Sox did make the playoffs every year and JM started resting Ordonez and Thomas for Daubach and Rowand I'd call for his head. But overall, I'm satisfied with making the playoffs every year. I'll take my chances on going to and winning the World Series.

Also realize if this team did go to the playoffs every year attenedence would be up. More people means more money to spend filling all these holes (which KW has failed to fill in 3 years) thus making the team much better.

Bob



Well Bob you tell me how a team that avg's almost 3 million fans and has a 85million dollar payroll shouldn't be going to the playoffs every year. If the Sox had that flexablility and were not in the playoffs the last 3 years I would be right in there ripping KW. But since he doens't have those assets at his disposal he essentially is building from the ground up. Gillick took that Job when everything was ready to go- New Stadium, AROd, etc. He had a built in advantage that KW does not have. He doesn't even have the #1 team in his town. So you tell me how that its a fair comparison? Help me understand your logic?

NYSF

NewyorkSoxFan
08-05-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I got in on this complex conversation late, so I'll just say: I disagree with 99% of what Gumshoe and gosox41 have written. KW has done his job, and done it remarkably well. If you make a trade and it doesn't work out, that doesn't automatically make it a bad trade, as much as you'd like to oversimplify the situation.

And please, please, please, can we stop with the emotional rollercoaster? Bitch bitch bitch, that's all I read when I come to this board the day after a loss. Look at the big picture for once, PLEASE. The Sox are still in it, KW has done his job, the players are good and they will win the division.


AMEN BROTHER :)

NYSF

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I got in on this complex conversation late, so I'll just say: I disagree with 99% of what Gumshoe and gosox41 have written. KW has done his job, and done it remarkably well. If you make a trade and it doesn't work out, that doesn't automatically make it a bad trade, as much as you'd like to oversimplify the situation.

And please, please, please, can we stop with the emotional rollercoaster? Bitch bitch bitch, that's all I read when I come to this board the day after a loss. Look at the big picture for once, PLEASE. The Sox are still in it, KW has done his job, the players are good and they will win the division.

Actually I haven't been as excited as most here about the Sox recent hot streak. So my roller coaster has been mostly going down without any ups.

Am I bitching or telling the truth? I want the Sox to win and try to be objective in the moves that are made. Being a diehard fan makes it difficult to be objective as most fans try to see things with rose colored glasses. I say what I think is the truth and stand by it. I've given KW credit as of late. But I also ripped him for the Schoeneweis trade because I think it wasn't that good of trade.

I wish I had your optimism and look forward to an "I told you so" from you if the Sox acutally win the division. But it's hard to be optimistic when the team continues to play up (or is it down) to my negative expectations. I've seen these scenarios before and usually know how things wind up.

Bob

gosox41
08-05-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Well Bob you tell me how a team that avg's almost 3 million fans and has a 85million dollar payroll shouldn't be going to the playoffs every year. If the Sox had that flexablility and were not in the playoffs the last 3 years I would be right in there ripping KW. But since he doens't have those assets at his disposal he essentially is building from the ground up. Gillick took that Job when everything was ready to go- New Stadium, AROd, etc. He had a built in advantage that KW does not have. He doesn't even have the #1 team in his town. So you tell me how that its a fair comparison? Help me understand your logic?

NYSF

But the Sox are in the weakest divison in the AL. Last season they finsihed 13 games out of first (god is that terrible.) All this while playing Detroit and KC who lost 100+ games 38 times and a weak Cleveland.

Where would the Sox be if they played in the AL West the last 3 years. There are 3 tough teams there.

The division has been for the taking by the Sox. Every year (excpet 2000) the team fails to do it even though they have the talent.

And I don't think KW started at ground zero with this team. It's not like he took over a last place team with no farm system. He inherited a team coming off a 95 win season that included a solid core. He inherited pitching prospects such as Rauch, Fogg, Wells, Buehrle, Wright and Garland. What are the results? a 95 win team went to 93 wins in 2001 and 81 in 2002.

What do you think the Sox record would have been if they and Texas switched divisions?

As for the attendence issue, the Sox used to be a team that drew 2.7-2.8 mill. a year. For many different reasons, the bottom line is they didn't win then and they haven't now either.

Bob

hold2dibber
08-05-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
There we're 2 awful, awful, awful trades KW made. The first was the Todd Ritchie debacle. The second was the Foulke/Koch deal. These trades we're so bad on clearly bad on paper that it should have been a no brainer. I was in a white sox NG when the Ritchie trade happened and was against it then. I was posting here when the Foulke/Koch trade happened and if anyone wants to read my posts from the day the rumor came out, I was 100% against it.

Imagine how much better this team would be if Fogg, Wells, and Foulke were still here. The bullpen would be set. The 5 starters would be set. And I'd feel a lot more confident about winning the division, though the Sox would probably have a better record because of having these guys all season.

Now I know it makes no sense to wonder "what if" such as "What if KW weren't such a moron who got bamboozled on those 2 trades?" but as a Sox fan, what else is there????

So KW has done a lot...to bad it's to insure this team won't win the division.

Bob

You're employing some really twisted logic here, Bob. Basically, you're arguing that if KW hadn't made these bad trades, the Sox would be in great shape. But you're completely ignoring the fact that he has made good trades, too. Say KW had not made the 2 bad trades you've noted. But he also had not obtained Olivo, Marte, Gordon, Colon, Alomar, Everett, Daubach, Cotts, Harris, Loaiza? It seems to me that you're basically saying "because he's made a lot of good moves this team would be really good if he hadn't made those 2 bad moves." That's just screwy.

I completely agree that Williams has made 2 really bad trades (although the Koch/Foulke deal could still be salvaged to some extent if Cotts becomes a productive major league pitcher) and a few other questionable trades. However, he also also made some damn good acquisitions and has assembled the most talented team in the AL Central. Has he put together a perfect team? No. Has he filled in every last hole in the team? No. But he has assembled the most talented team in the Division. The rest is up to the manager and the players.

Which leads me to the criticism of KW that is most well deserved - he should have fired Manuel a long time ago. This team should be running away with this division. Manuel does NOT get the most out of his teams. And it is KW's responsibility to see that and rectify it.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You're employing some really twisted logic here, Bob. Basically, you're arguing that if KW hadn't made these bad trades, the Sox would be in great shape. But you're completely ignoring the fact that he has made good trades, too. Say KW had not made the 2 bad trades you've noted. But he also had not obtained Olivo, Marte, Gordon, Colon, Alomar, Everett, Daubach, Cotts, Harris, Loaiza? It seems to me that you're basically saying "because he's made a lot of good moves this team would be really good if he hadn't made those 2 bad moves." That's just screwy.

I completely agree that Williams has made 2 really bad trades (although the Koch/Foulke deal could still be salvaged to some extent if Cotts becomes a productive major league pitcher) and a few other questionable trades. However, he also also made some damn good acquisitions and has assembled the most talented team in the AL Central. Has he put together a perfect team? No. Has he filled in every last hole in the team? No. But he has assembled the most talented team in the Division. The rest is up to the manager and the players.

Which leads me to the criticism of KW that is most well deserved - he should have fired Manuel a long time ago. This team should be running away with this division. Manuel does NOT get the most out of his teams. And it is KW's responsibility to see that and rectify it.

I guess my point is with the 2 awful trades (Koch and Ritchie) is that these trades were so blatantly lopsided that htere was no good sound logic in making the.

To put in persepctive, there are some here who think I am an idiot. That's fine. But if an idiot like me comes out and rips the trades the day they're made (or in the case of Koch when the rumor was floating around) then I think it's a sign of how bad they really are.

I praised KW for getting Colon (though I did question if they could have gotten Millwood for less), Olivo, in Alomar. IMHO, Everett and Schoeneweis weren't that great of moves. I may be wrong but it's my opinion.

Overall he's probably made more good trades then bad, but when he does make a bad trade, it really reeks.

Bob

kempsted
08-05-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree that Koch blows, but how many closer awards has Foulke won? That guy spit the bit in every big game last year when he came in and had to put up a zero. Koch is not the answer but neither is Foulke. I am so tired of hearing about Foulkes stats.
As I was told once.... Figures Lie and Liars Figure... If Keith was a bigtime Closer he would be here. We don't have one this year and we certainly didn't have one last year. Neither of them will be on the mound for the Sox if and when they win a WS. So its a moot point.

NYSF

That guy (Foulke) blew 3 saves last year. I guess that is the spiting the bit in every big game that you refer to. He allowed just 3 of his 21 inherited runners to score last year.
He did not allow an earned run in his final 17.2 innings...allowed one earned run over his last 31.1 innings (0.29 ERA) and three in last 38.2 (0.70). His last walk was August 1st.

Koch blew 6 saves last year not counting the playoffs.

I think baseball prospectus said it best last December

> Keith Foulke rules. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise -- the line
> that he "was a closer who lost his job for most of the year" overlooks
> entirely the fact that he was taken out of the role not because he
> sucked, but because he had a couple of bad outings in a row and his
> manager was stupid. He's been one of baseball's best relievers since
> 1999 (and he threw 105 innings that year!). Koch... Koch hasn't.

If you don't like looking at the numbers what do you like? Subjective feeling. Then every closer in baseball sucks. Anyone who watches every game of a team will see their closer struggle.

Smoltz has blown 3 saves this year and 4 last year (more than Foulke last year - but granted a lot more opportunities).

I agree though that Williams has done good overall and that Foulke is not the greatest closer in baseball.

PS Foulke got a save in the all star game and is also the current closer of a team in the running for the play offs so I think that the "if Foulke was such a big time closer he would still be here" is not a reasonable comment.

maurice
08-05-2003, 04:00 PM
KW has made some good trades and some bad trades, and he had a very good draft this year. Strictly in terms of player moves, he's a fine GM who has been learning on the job. This season, he's given JM all the players needed to win this division by 10+ games, but JM consistently drops the ball. IF KW has the authority to fire JM, his failure to do so is even worse than the Ritchie deal. However, I am not convinced that KW has that much authority. This is a seriously messed up organization from a management standpoint.

As for Foulke, posters on this board have asserted for years that Foulke is not a good closer and chokes. The big problem with this argument is that every single piece of relevant evidence indicates that Foulke IS a very good closer who does not blow "big games" at a higher rate than other very good closers. I understand that JM disagrees, but JM is an idiot, and his unsupported, subjective opinion is as worthless as the unsupported, subjective opinions of other Foulke-haters.

FJA
08-05-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Isn't the GM responsible for winning? If not, please inform me what that role is for. If the manager doesn't contribute to the winnning of a team, he's gotta go. who's ultimately responsible? the GM. I'm not sure what you don't understand about that.

Let me say that I think the Schoenweis deal might have been OK, but it was good in that we didn't use Glover, so we might as well have traded him, which is backward logic. I like the Alomar deal too, I have always said that. I think getting RID of DJ was always my complaint. We didn't need to, adn he is a much better player that the others. Everett still hasn't hit enough to make him a better option than Rowand. Period.

Good job KW. Will we see results where it matters, in the win column? That is my point.

ps- the foulke as best closer in the game was to rile you up, but he was assuredly the top 5 closers over the last 3 years, and head and shoulders above Koch.

Of course the GM is responsible for winning, and I think, for the most part, KW has done his part. As far as the manager situation goes, everyone says it is in KW's court, but I have a hard time believing that Uncle Jerry has NOTHING to say about putting two managers on the payroll.

You ask "Will we see the results where it matters, in the win column?" Based on KW's work, I think we will. Certainly the moves he has made recently have put us in a better position. I think there is a real double standard among a lot of people here ... KW and Manuel can't do anything right. On the other hand, as soon as Frank or Magglio do what they can to put the team in a better position to win, all the talk is about how great they are--and not that it's not deserved, but let's be fair. No one says "Trade Frank" or "Release Magglio" when they go 0-fer during the back half of a road trip, because we all are able to look at the big picture. We can criticize past deals all we want, but let's also give credit where credit is due. No matter what you think of the long-term implications of KW's moves, he has put us in a much better position to win NOW than we were in at the beginning or middle of June.

hold2dibber
08-05-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by maurice
KW has made some good trades and some bad trades, and he had a very good draft this year. Strictly in terms of player moves, he's a fine GM who has been learning on the job. This season, he's given JM all the players needed to win this division by 10+ games, but JM consistently drops the ball. IF KW has the authority to fire JM, his failure to do so is even worse than the Ritchie deal. However, I am not convinced that KW has that much authority. This is a seriously messed up organization from a management standpoint.

As for Foulke, posters on this board have asserted for years that Foulke is not a good closer and chokes. The big problem with this argument is that every single piece of relevant evidence indicates that Foulke IS a very good closer who does not blow "big games" at a higher rate than other very good closers. I understand that JM disagrees, but JM is an idiot, and his unsupported, subjective opinion is as worthless as the unsupported, subjective opinions of other Foulke-haters.

Bingo, bango, boom. Nail hit squarely on the head.

RKMeibalane
08-05-2003, 05:31 PM
Ken Williams has made his share of mistake in the past. The trades involving Todd Ritchie and Royce Clayton are examples. However, it is now clear to me that Williams wants to win, and he is doing the best he can to put a championship calliber team on the field. In spite of the fact that both have been inconsistent since their arrival in Chicago, I'm still glad that Alomar and Everett are a part of this team.

Several people are blaming KW because he hasn't fired Jerry Manuel, but I don't think that criticism is fair. Williams cannot fire Manuel unless Reinsdorf gives him permission to do so, and JR is too cheap to pay for two managers next season. Therefore, barring a major disaster, Manuel will be around in 2004. That's the way it is. Pointing the finger at Ken Williams isn't right.

Having said that, Manuel's job is far from safe. As PHG mentioned last month, Hawk Harrelson has become increasingly critical of JM's personel moves and managerial decisions. As history has shown, Hawk is a good barometer as far as what JR is thinking. If somethings comes out of Hawk's mouth, it's probably because Reinsdorf is thinking the same thing.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Ken Williams has made his share of mistake in the past. The trades involving Todd Ritchie and Royce Clayton are examples. However, it is now clear to me that Williams wants to win, and he is doing the best he can to put a championship calliber team on the field. In spite of the fact that both have been inconsistent since their arrival in Chicago, I'm still glad that Alomar and Everett are a part of this team.

Several people are blaming KW because he hasn't fired Jerry Manuel, but I don't think that criticism is fair. Williams cannot fire Manuel unless Reinsdorf gives him permission to do so, and JR is too cheap to pay for two managers next season. Therefore, barring a major disaster, Manuel will be around in 2004. That's the way it is. Pointing the finger at Ken Williams isn't right.

Having said that, Manuel's job is far from safe. As PHG mentioned last month, Hawk Harrelson has become increasingly critical of JM's personel moves and managerial decisions. As history has shown, Hawk is a good barometer as far as what JR is thinking. If somethings comes out of Hawk's mouth, it's probably because Reinsdorf is thinking the same thing.

Any time someone wants to make a decision and take action and fire JM is fine by me.

Bob

Gumshoe
08-05-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by maurice
KW has made some good trades and some bad trades, and he had a very good draft this year. Strictly in terms of player moves, he's a fine GM who has been learning on the job. This season, he's given JM all the players needed to win this division by 10+ games, but JM consistently drops the ball. IF KW has the authority to fire JM, his failure to do so is even worse than the Ritchie deal. However, I am not convinced that KW has that much authority. This is a seriously messed up organization from a management standpoint.

As for Foulke, posters on this board have asserted for years that Foulke is not a good closer and chokes. The big problem with this argument is that every single piece of relevant evidence indicates that Foulke IS a very good closer who does not blow "big games" at a higher rate than other very good closers. I understand that JM disagrees, but JM is an idiot, and his unsupported, subjective opinion is as worthless as the unsupported, subjective opinions of other Foulke-haters.

That combined with

Overall he's probably made more good trades then bad, but when he does make a bad trade, it really reeks.

tells the reality of the situation. I understand this organization in terms of management is all screwed up. I have to say, besides a few others here and there, my posts and maurice's correspond for the most part to a T. I didn't start this thread to totally bash KW. His day MAY come. But we CANNOT overlook the point that this division is very weak in comparison and that while everyone thinks KW has done such a "great job" we still are only 4 games above .500. I think there is plenty to worry about, namely JR, KW, and JM.

I did start the post saying that I wouldn't be surprised if we did win the division; but how great of an accomplishment is it even IF it happens? A good one, to be sure, but man, with our rotation and hitting, obviously not phenomenal. Seemingly, we should win by 10 games ... but it'll be 3-5 or closer at the end, I predict.

So many moves are interspersed with other moron moves, how can we trust these guys? Well, we need right handed relief and I have liked Paniagua, so I hope he works out.

Really guys, I'm not trying to be so pessimistic but I finally realized that with this organization you have to be realistic. I am by nature an optimist, but man, why put myself through the torture before anything substantial happens?

Gumshoe

SoxOnTop
08-05-2003, 06:41 PM
Gummy,

Whether Kenny's trades have done more harm than good in the last year is debatable. Whether he is smart enough to get the most for the players he gives up is also debatable. But what is not debatable is that he has for the first time in 6 years, given Sox fans the impression that Sox management is more interested in winning than making money. He made 2 big trades in early July for accomplished veterans instead of selling off like many Sox fans expected. He went for it while many were asking for a fire sale. And he did it without mortgaging our future.

Whether we win the division or not we will have an exciting finish to the regular season for only the 2nd time since '96. If nothing else, by attempting to put us over the top for the remainder of the season he has put butts in the Comiskey seats. And if he can finally show tight wad JR that winning begets fan support and ticket sales, maybe, just maybe JR will open his purse and let us sign legitimate players to fill our needs instead of having to constantly trade for quesitonable players.

I think the transformation in thinking that KW is trying to bring to Sox mangement is HUGE. Whether he is successful or not is yet to be determined, but the fact that he is putting himself on the line to make the clowns upstairs think of the Sox as a big market team is outstanding.

SOT

cornball
08-05-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
It's a win if WE win. He hasn't WON anything. I don't care about trying. We need to win, then it might not be giving up "too much"

Gumshoe

The thing is Gumshoe, neither has any other GM in this town in over 80 years or 160 plus years combined. Let it play out and we will see.

Lip Man 1
08-05-2003, 10:00 PM
Kenny has made some good trades...kenny has made some bad trades... but unlike his predecessor he's at least doing SOMETHING.

Like Williams said last week it's important that this team wins so he DOESN'T have to try to keep piecing it together every year on a 50 million dollar payroll.

He feels if the Sox can win and start drawing, the payroll might go up and he can really start building a consistent winner.

I'm a big critic of Williams but I have to give him props for putting so real talent out there on a 53 million dollar payroll. I'm convinced that he CAN'T fire Manager Gandhi even if he wanted to because he doesn't have that authority.

One final point....Fogg and Wells aren't exactly lighting up the NL are they? Both looked like that have regressed from last year's numbers. Especially Fogg.

Lip

baseballboy
08-05-2003, 11:57 PM
You know Gumshoe I have watched you post on here many times. You ask what had KW won, but yet you call other players and GMs winners that havent won a damn thing. I have seen you write that Billy Beane, Foulke, Rowand, Jimenez, Sean Lowe, Carlos Lee, and Jose Valentin are all winners. What the hell have they won that makes you think they are winners? Not a one of them have been on a championship team. What have they won? I really don't understand a lot of your comments. I will again point this out to you and everyone here. You are the type of fan that gives us the terrible reputation of being a bunch of complainers. I never hear anything out of you accept bitching and moaning. Please shut the hell up unless you can say something positive.

If you don't want to get your hopes up or as you say "put yourself through that torture" then please choose another team to root for. I would be all for that.