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Viva Magglio
08-05-2003, 10:37 AM
How many games so far this season has Jerry Manuel cost us? I would guess 20.

Jerko
08-05-2003, 10:41 AM
At least 10, maybe 15. But of course there's no proof we would have WON all those games if he didn't do what he did, and hindsight IS 20/20 after all.

Hangar18
08-05-2003, 10:55 AM
Easily 10 approaching 15. Though Billy Koch gets the Assist in blowing 5 of these games for Manuel. Tough to figure out who to blame in those games. Manuel for bringing in a guy who has NOT BEEN THROWING GREAT....or Koch for continueing to stink?
Isnt it something how those games are the difference in us being in FIRST PLACE as opposed to where we are now? Looking up at the Royals? Lets not forget something......Manuels been doing this since last yr too with MisManaging the Bullpen, filling out bogus lineup cards ......

JRIG
08-05-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Easily 10 approaching 15. Though Billy Koch gets the Assist in blowing 5 of these games for Manuel. Tough to figure out who to blame in those games. Manuel for bringing in a guy who has NOT BEEN THROWING GREAT....or Koch for continueing to stink?
Isnt it something how those games are the difference in us being in FIRST PLACE as opposed to where we are now? Looking up at the Royals? Lets not forget something......Manuels been doing this since last yr too with MisManaging the Bullpen, filling out bogus lineup cards ......

I'm one of the biggest Manuel critics around, but I severely doubt it's even possible he's cost us more than ten games at most. I'd put the number at 6 or 7 probably. You can't say that every time Manuel's made a bad decision it has cost us a game. Even the best managers make bad decisions sometimes.

THE_HOOTER
08-05-2003, 11:26 AM
Last night was a complete Manuel loss.

Game 3 at Wrigley was a Manuel loss.

ssang
08-05-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Last night was a complete Manuel loss.

Game 3 at Wrigley was a Manuel loss.


I agree with you especially with game 3 at Wrigley. Why take out Colon! Also, don't forget about the rubber match against the Giants. How can he not even have a pitcher warming up in the 9th!?!?!? And he pitched to Bonds with first base open!?!?!!? You frigin' MORON!!!!

Jerko
08-05-2003, 11:36 AM
Koch vs. Tampa comes to mind. I admit Koch sucks but you think the manager who sees him every day would have known that by the middle of July.

kempsted
08-05-2003, 11:43 AM
And lets not forget the rubber game of the Giants series where he sticks with Colon after he gave up the homer. THey had a huge lead in that game and he didn't even have anyone warming up after the home run. I think he took the criticism from that game and applied it last night - Oh I better hook the guy. Sorry Jer but the Colon game it was the 8th inning not the 6th.

voodoochile
08-05-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by ssang
I agree with you especially with game 3 at Wrigley. Why take out Colon! Also, don't forget about the rubber match against the Giants. How can he not even have a pitcher warming up in the 9th!?!?!? And he pitched to Bonds with first base open!?!?!!? You frigin' MORON!!!!

He does that ALL the time. The number of unissued free-passes that have come back to haunt the Sox is staggering to say the least. It isn't a new thing either. In 2001 Manuel was pitching to Jim Thome with first base open and men on base late in the season with the division still winnable (albeit a long shot).

Manuel is clueless...

hold2dibber
08-05-2003, 12:29 PM
It's impossible to say how many games JM has cost the team. But, just for the sake of fairness, I note that it is certainly possible - if not probable - that he has also won the team some games by making pitching changes, pinch hitting, or sitting guys in favor of other guys on given days. JM is a horse crap manager - doesn't know how to manage the bullpen or the lineup - but my guess is that his strategical maneuverings alone, netted, have cost the team no more than 5 games. However, I also think he has cost the team tons of games by his lack of passion and his failure to instill any urgency in the players. If they had played wih passion and urgency right out of the gate, they'd be in much, much better shape than they're in now.

Jerko
08-05-2003, 12:34 PM
The only game I remember that he won with a good move was when he pulled Koch with 2 outs in the 9th and went to Marte. It is unheard of to pull your 'closer' with 2 outs in the 9th, but he did that night and that game probably saved his job, along with the Crede homer in the 12th to avoid a home sweep by Detroit. Also, any game he gets tossed in the first 2 innings he helped us win by not being around in the later innings. But I bet the difference in games he's cost us and games he's won for us is more than 10.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Koch vs. Tampa comes to mind. I admit Koch sucks but you think the manager who sees him every day would have known that by the middle of July.


:jerry
<<<YAWN>>>> Did I miss something????

gosox41
08-05-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
The only game I remember that he won with a good move was when he pulled Koch with 2 outs in the 9th and went to Marte. It is unheard of to pull your 'closer' with 2 outs in the 9th, but he did that night and that game probably saved his job, along with the Crede homer in the 12th to avoid a home sweep by Detroit. Also, any game he gets tossed in the first 2 innings he helped us win by not being around in the later innings. But I bet the difference in games he's cost us and games he's won for us is more than 10.

I can count at least 2 times this season that Manuel has pulled out Marte with 2 outs in the 9th to bring in Koch to get the cheap save. They worked out as Billyboy couldn't even screw it up, but they weren't good moves.

At least the you mentioned the opposite situation and it actually worked. But for every good move there seems to be ten bad moves.

Bob

Jerko
08-05-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by gosox41


I can count at least 2 times this season that Manuel has pulled out Marte with 2 outs in the 9th to bring in Koch to get the cheap save. They worked out as Billyboy couldn't even screw it up, but they weren't good moves.

At least the you mentioned the opposite situation and it actually worked. But for every good move there seems to be ten bad moves.

Bob



Believe me, I was only playing Devil's Advocate. I agree that for each good move there were 10 bad ones; I am in NO way defending JM here.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Believe me, I was only playing Devil's Advocate. I agree that for each good move there were 10 bad ones; I am in NO way defending JM here.

I know you're one of the one's who see how bad JM is. I just like to point out all the illogical moves JM makes. That way I get a good laugh when I think of the fact that JM is such a bad manager yet still continues to hold a job.

Bob

DonkeyKongerko
08-05-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
And lets not forget the rubber game of the Giants series where he sticks with Colon after he gave up the homer. THey had a huge lead in that game and he didn't even have anyone warming up after the home run. I think he took the criticism from that game and applied it last night - Oh I better hook the guy. Sorry Jer but the Colon game it was the 8th inning not the 6th.

Colon gave up a 2 run HR to Bonds in the 9th inning of that game that made the score 4-4. Sox really didn't have a huge lead the entire game and Colon had struck out Bonds in his previous 3 plate appearances. The only bad part was keeping in Colon after Bonds hit the HR when he was obviously rattled.

jeremyb1
08-05-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'm one of the biggest Manuel critics around, but I severely doubt it's even possible he's cost us more than ten games at most. I'd put the number at 6 or 7 probably. You can't say that every time Manuel's made a bad decision it has cost us a game. Even the best managers make bad decisions sometimes.

thank you for being able to critisize manuel in a levelheaded, honest fashion instead of everyone else who acts as though you must either decide whether manuel is a good manager or is the worst in the history of baseball and has cost of 20 games this season!! i don't think its possible to lose 20 games for a team without trying. i disagree with manuel a fair amount but i have a hard time calling for his job when i see the ridiculous standards to which many fans hold his performance. if we lose its his fault plain and simple. 20 losses actually seems like a low number the way most people act here.

again, i think garland was pulled to early last night because it depleted the pen for the rest of the series and upset big jon when he was pitching well but i've heard absolutely no coherent explanation as to how anyone could've anticipated that shoenweis who is murder on lefties would open the gates for a seven run inning but we lost and manuel made a decision people didn't agree with so its entirely his fault, right?

RKMeibalane
08-05-2003, 04:48 PM
Jerry Manuel has cost the Sox the following games:

1. Game 3 of the Wrigley Field Cubs series.

2. The first game of the Tampa Bay road series.

3. The final game of the Giants series.

4. The rubber game of the Padres series, when he moved Frank back to DH.

5. Last night's game.

6. Sunday's game versus Seattle, when he brought out the "B Team" lineup.

7. Any game where he has rested Frank Thomas and/or Magglio Ordonez for no reason.

8. Any game that he allowed Rick White to pitch in before June 1.

9. Any game that he allowed Paul Konerko to start before July 1.

10. Any weird "tinkering" games with players at random positions, such as the final game of the home series with the Cubs, when Jimenez was at third base.

jeremyb1
08-05-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Jerry Manuel has cost the Sox the following games:

1. Game 3 of the Wrigley Field Cubs series.

2. The first game of the Tampa Bay road series.

3. The final game of the Giants series.

4. The rubber game of the Padres series, when he moved Frank back to DH.

5. Last night's game.

6. Sunday's game versus Seattle, when he brought out the "B Team" lineup.

7. Any game where he has rested Frank Thomas and/or Magglio Ordonez for no reason.

8. Any game that he allowed Rick White to pitch in before June 1.

9. Any game that he allowed Paul Konerko to start before July 1.

10. Any weird "tinkering" games with players at random positions, such as the final game of the home series with the Cubs, when Jimenez was at third base.

haha. is this a joke. almost all of these are perfect examples of you taking singular factors and claiming they definitively caused losses. to state that manuel is responsible for any loss where frank started dh and didn't hit well is absurd. if frank was 0-4 at dh in a game where we lost 10-0 i'm pretty sure that's not entirely manuel's fault. additionally, manuel didn't sign konerko to a huge extension, sign rick white, or water down the quality of the bench by trading jimenez for nothing instead of simply demoting harris.

RKMeibalane
08-05-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
haha. is this a joke.

Exactly. Most of my post was meant to be somewhat humorous. I considered adding more items to the list, including:

11. Any game during which Manuel slept.

12. Any game following a bad loss, and a subsequent journey to Dairy Queen or Baskin Robbins.

duke of dorwood
08-05-2003, 08:29 PM
Between 10 and 15-and its still early August

Mighty4
08-05-2003, 11:25 PM
Guys, Jeremyb1 has been defending Manuel the entire season. According to him, Manuel has never made a mistake in his entire life. I suggest you put Jeremyb1 on your ignore list, if for no other reason than to save yourselves a bunch of anger when you read his posts. The only thing wrong with that is that you can still read his quotes if somebody else deems it necessary to quote him, which usually does not happen since his views are so inept that nobody will waste their time cutting and pasting what he says. Believe me, my experience on this board has improved ten-fold since I found out how to put jeremyb1 on my ignore list. I suggest any Sox fan with any shred of common sense do the same.

doublem23
08-05-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
haha. is this a joke. almost all of these are perfect examples of you taking singular factors and claiming they definitively caused losses. to state that manuel is responsible for any loss where frank started dh and didn't hit well is absurd. if frank was 0-4 at dh in a game where we lost 10-0 i'm pretty sure that's not entirely manuel's fault. additionally, manuel didn't sign konerko to a huge extension, sign rick white, or water down the quality of the bench by trading jimenez for nothing instead of simply demoting harris.

I've got to agree... Somewhat. While I want Manuel to get canned, I think he takes way more heat than he deserves. Everytime something goes wrong, he gets roasted. While I do not believe that he, and he alone, is the reason the Sox have struggled for most of this year is rather ridiculous.

Thousands of things swing the balance of a baseball game. While Manuel, more often than not, swings things against the Sox, he is not in control of every variable.

Hangar18
08-06-2003, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Jerry Manuel has cost the Sox the following games:

1. Game 3 of the Wrigley Field Cubs series.

2. The first game of the Tampa Bay road series.

3. The final game of the Giants series.

4. The rubber game of the Padres series, when he moved Frank back to DH.

5. Last night's game.

6. Sunday's game versus Seattle, when he brought out the "B Team" lineup.

7. Any game where he has rested Frank Thomas and/or Magglio Ordonez for no reason.

8. Any game that he allowed Rick White to pitch in before June 1.

9. Any game that he allowed Paul Konerko to start before July 1.

10. Any weird "tinkering" games with players at random positions, such as the final game of the home series with the Cubs, when Jimenez was at third base.

I agree with this list very much. Though other players are involved in the loss also.....but he Gets "Credit" for instigating...

gosox41
08-06-2003, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
I've got to agree... Somewhat. While I want Manuel to get canned, I think he takes way more heat than he deserves. Everytime something goes wrong, he gets roasted. While I do not believe that he, and he alone, is the reason the Sox have struggled for most of this year is rather ridiculous.

Thousands of things swing the balance of a baseball game. While Manuel, more often than not, swings things against the Sox, he is not in control of every variable.

My biggest problem is the inconsistency in JM's decisions. Is it any coincidence the team started hitting when Manuel went to 2 set line ups after the All Star Break?

A lot of his moves make little sense and defy commong logic. Just about any baseball situation can be overanalyzed and a changed made because of it. Doesn't mean it should happen. The JG move was the latest in a bad, inconsistent move by Manuel.

Bob