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voodoochile
08-05-2003, 01:21 AM
Okay, I watched tonight's game live. If Konerko is half the defensive player Jerry claims he is, then the Sox probably win this game because Garland never gets pulled in the first place and the Sox are leading 6-1 after 5. Heck, the 9th inning maybe doesn't get rolling if he makes that play up the line on the leadoff guy.

Play Frank at first. At least the offense they pick up will offset any negligible effect we suffer because Paulie and his amazing glove of doom aren't in the game.

The argument is becoming moot. Paulie is NOT a gold-glove first baseman and he proved it AGAIN tonight.

TornLabrum
08-05-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, I watched tonight's game live. If Konerko is half the defensive player Jerry claims he is, then the Sox probably win this game because Garland never gets pulled in the first place and the Sox are leading 6-1 after 5. Heck, the 9th inning maybe doesn't get rolling if he makes that play up the line on the leadoff guy.

Play Frank at first. At least the offense they pick up will offset any negligible effect we suffer because Paulie and his amazing glove of doom aren't in the game.

The argument is becoming moot. Paulie is NOT a gold-glove first baseman and he proved it AGAIN tonight.

I was in Section 119, just behind first base. He was brutal out there tonight.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, I watched tonight's game live. If Konerko is half the defensive player Jerry claims he is, then the Sox probably win this game because Garland never gets pulled in the first place and the Sox are leading 6-1 after 5. Heck, the 9th inning maybe doesn't get rolling if he makes that play up the line on the leadoff guy.

Play Frank at first. At least the offense they pick up will offset any negligible effect we suffer because Paulie and his amazing glove of doom aren't in the game.

The argument is becoming moot. Paulie is NOT a gold-glove first baseman and he proved it AGAIN tonight.

PK is very overrated as a first baseman. I'd rather have Frank's 100 point difference in average between. 1B and DH.

Bob

bobj4400
08-05-2003, 09:38 AM
Remember Pauly is one of JM's guys while Frank isnt, so you wont be seeing Frank out at first any time soon.

MetalliSox
08-05-2003, 09:47 AM
What about that pick in the 1st after Alomar dropped the grounder and threw it low to Paulie's right? Paulie has saved Jose and Crede from having about 5 more errors each this season, even with the part time play in the first half.

Originally posted by voodoochile
Play Frank at first. At least the offense they pick up will offset any negligible effect we suffer because Paulie and his amazing glove of doom aren't in the game.

The argument is becoming moot. Paulie is NOT a gold-glove first baseman and he proved it AGAIN tonight.

Um, we scored 9 runs last night. That is more then enough offense for a win. The one liner to Konerko was a tough play. Olerud maynot even of had it, especially when playing the line.

How come nobody has gotten on Crede for not catching that ballin the 9th?

gosox41
08-05-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
What about that pick in the 1st after Alomar dropped the grounder and threw it low to Paulie's right? Paulie has saved Jose and Crede from having about 5 more errors each this season, even with the part time play in the first half.



Um, we scored 9 runs last night. That is more then enough offense for a win. The one liner to Konerko was a tough play. Olerud maynot even of had it, especially when playing the line.



How many guys did the Sox leave on base last night in the first 3 innings? The game should have been over by the 4th if the Sox weren't in love with the home run.

Bob

A.T. Money
08-05-2003, 10:46 AM
I bet you didn't know this, but before yesterday, Konerko had the highest fielding percentage in the American League. Higher than Olerud. Higher than Mienkiewicz.

Figure THAT out.

booter14
08-05-2003, 10:48 AM
Play Frank at first

Doesn't anyone ask Frank if he WANTS to play 1B? The answer would be no, he hates playing in the field.

Frank is content getting his four AB's per game and hitting the showers. (some nights he probably doesn't break a sweat) The other problem is you have a manager who is unwilling to go against his player's wishes. He should make Frank at least split time with Paulie in order to keep him in shape.

Also, Frank no longer wants to show off his triple clutch throwing arm. Did you see the Royals 1B Harvey throw to 3B last night on Robbies baserunning? That would have been a strong throw from Frank. Frank would have three hopped it.

That being said, he still needs to play there 1-2 nights per week. Other than the throw around the horn, a 1B rarely needs to show off his cannon (pea shooter)

harwar
08-05-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by booter14
Doesn't anyone ask Frank if he WANTS to play 1B? The answer would be no, he hates playing in the field.

That is absolutely untrue.Frank has repeatedly said that he doesn't mind playing first.In fact he prefers it as it opens more possibilities for teams to pick him up next year.Also,although he looks uncomfortable at 1st when he hasn't been there in a while the more he plays there the better he feels.

Paulwny
08-05-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
I bet you didn't know this, but before yesterday, Konerko had the highest fielding percentage in the American League. Higher than Olerud. Higher than Mienkiewicz.

Figure THAT out.

The official scorer at the cell is very liberal. Both ESPN announcers felt Konerko should have had an error last night.

voodoochile
08-05-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
What about that pick in the 1st after Alomar dropped the grounder and threw it low to Paulie's right? Paulie has saved Jose and Crede from having about 5 more errors each this season, even with the part time play in the first half.



Um, we scored 9 runs last night. That is more then enough offense for a win. The one liner to Konerko was a tough play. Olerud maynot even of had it, especially when playing the line.

How come nobody has gotten on Crede for not catching that ballin the 9th?

Because no one is arguing that there is a guy on the bench who will totally outhit Crede while having minimal difference on the defensive effort.

I don't know whether Frank gets to those balls last night or not, but what is Paulie doing with his glove that is so spectacular that makes him the better choice than Frank? Why can't Paulie DH?

Frank has asked to play 1B and has put up much better numbers ALL through his career, this year included. JM has made a decision that costst the team lots of run based on the strength of a firstbaseman's arm. I was talking to my roommate about that, he says, "Who talks about a firstbaseman's arm?"

gosox41
08-05-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
I bet you didn't know this, but before yesterday, Konerko had the highest fielding percentage in the American League. Higher than Olerud. Higher than Mienkiewicz.

Figure THAT out.

I already have. Look at the range factors of these guys. Olerud gets to a lot more hard grounders and pop ups then PK. Olerud makes a lot more plays, but as you take more chanes, the odds are errors will go up. It certainly doesn't make him a worse fielder.

Bob

gosox41
08-05-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by booter14
Doesn't anyone ask Frank if he WANTS to play 1B? The answer would be no, he hates playing in the field.

Frank is content getting his four AB's per game and hitting the showers. (some nights he probably doesn't break a sweat) The other problem is you have a manager who is unwilling to go against his player's wishes. He should make Frank at least split time with Paulie in order to keep him in shape.

Also, Frank no longer wants to show off his triple clutch throwing arm. Did you see the Royals 1B Harvey throw to 3B last night on Robbies baserunning? That would have been a strong throw from Frank. Frank would have three hopped it.

That being said, he still needs to play there 1-2 nights per week. Other than the throw around the horn, a 1B rarely needs to show off his cannon (pea shooter)

Do you read the papers at all??

TornLabrum
08-05-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
I bet you didn't know this, but before yesterday, Konerko had the highest fielding percentage in the American League. Higher than Olerud. Higher than Mienkiewicz.

Figure THAT out.

I can answer that with the one word that Paulie used three times in four balls hit in his direction last night: "Ole!"

dickallen15
08-05-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
The official scorer at the cell is very liberal. Both ESPN announcers felt Konerko should have had an error last night.

Another reason for his high fielding percentage is he only gets to balls a foot away from him. He has no range. Put Frank at first, he's brutal, but his offensive difference when playing the field,is far greater than the defensive difference between Frank and Paulie.

Randar68
08-05-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Another reason for his high fielding percentage is he only gets to balls a foot away from him. He has no range. Put Frank at first, he's brutal, but his offensive difference when playing the field,is far greater than the defensive difference between Frank and Paulie.


Brutal? The only thing he can't do at least as well as Konerko is throw?

Big F'ing Deal.

Konerko is a Bull Fighter over there.

TornLabrum
08-05-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Konerko is a Bull Fighter over there.

Ole!

FanOf14
08-05-2003, 03:28 PM
How many more times will I see the same thread with the same people saying the same thing? :?: I think most have it figured out that most here thing Frank is a god and Konerko is a frog. I wish the sox would trade Konerko so I don't have to read so much damn whining about him here. Reading the posts here you would think he played for another team in the division.

With that said, I really couldn't care less who is at first as long as there is a 'W' on the board at the end of the night. If it is Konerko, fine if it is Daubach, fine, if it is Thomas fine - just win the damned game.

voodoochile
08-05-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How many more times will I see the same thread with the same people saying the same thing? :?: I think most have it figured out that most here thing Frank is a god and Konerko is a frog. I wish the sox would trade Konerko so I don't have to read so much damn whining about him here. Reading the posts here you would think he played for another team in the division.

With that said, I really couldn't care less who is at first as long as there is a 'W' on the board at the end of the night. If it is Konerko, fine if it is Daubach, fine, if it is Thomas fine - just win the damned game.

No, it isn't that Konerko is terrible, at least not for me. He is a streaky hitter who puts up average stats for a firstbaseman and plays average defense, IMO.

The issue is with Manuel who continues to insist that Konerko brings so much more to the team defensively than Frank that it justifys making Frank a perma-DH and thus costing the team a LOT of offense. Konerko isn't that good defensively to justify that stance. Last night was a classic example of WHY that is true. As I've said before. I don't know if Frank would have made those plays or not, but if neither one can then maybe it is time to make the decision based on who will make a greater jump offensively by playing first. That person is Frank.

Konerko should be the DH that's all. Hardly think you are the least biased opinion on the matter with a screen name like FanOf14 either...

Dadawg_77
08-05-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How many more times will I see the same thread with the same people saying the same thing? :?: I think most have it figured out that most here thing Frank is a god and Konerko is a frog. I wish the sox would trade Konerko so I don't have to read so much damn whining about him here. Reading the posts here you would think he played for another team in the division.

With that said, I really couldn't care less who is at first as long as there is a 'W' on the board at the end of the night. If it is Konerko, fine if it is Daubach, fine, if it is Thomas fine - just win the damned game.

The thing we are talking about is the cause of the results, not the results themselves. The cause is more important then the results since cause allows for more constant winning and not just streaks. The question of who to play at first should be answered by what gives your team a stronger chance to win, the result.

Everyone here wants the Sox to win, but they are not doing it this year. The Sox should have a 10 game lead on this division, but the offense struggled mightily the first of the year and brought the team down.

FanOf14
08-05-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, it isn't that Konerko is terrible, at least not for me. He is a streaky hitter who puts up average stats for a firstbaseman and plays average defense, IMO.

The issue is with Manuel who continues to insist that Konerko brings so much more to the team defensively than Frank that it justifys making Frank a perma-DH and thus costing the team a LOT of offense. Konerko isn't that good defensively to justify that stance. Last night was a classic example of WHY that is true. As I've said before. I don't know if Frank would have made those plays or not, but if neither one can then maybe it is time to make the decision based on who will make a greater jump offensively by playing first. That person is Frank.

Konerko should be the DH that's all. Hardly think you are the least biased opinion on the matter with a screen name like FanOf14 either...

Yes I am a fan of Konerko, but I really don't care if he is a DH or at 1B. BTW - never said I was the least biased, just sick of reading the same posts by the same people day in and day out. (I know, I know - ignore them) Like I said I am all for trading Konerko if it eliminates these threads. To reiterate what I said in my first post in this thread, I don't care who is at 1B as long as there is a check in the W column at the end of the day.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
How many more times will I see the same thread with the same people saying the same thing? :?: I think most have it figured out that most here thing Frank is a god and Konerko is a frog. I wish the sox would trade Konerko so I don't have to read so much damn whining about him here. Reading the posts here you would think he played for another team in the division.

With that said, I really couldn't care less who is at first as long as there is a 'W' on the board at the end of the night. If it is Konerko, fine if it is Daubach, fine, if it is Thomas fine - just win the damned game.

We all want more of those W's too. You'll see more if Frank's at 1B. That's the point of our ranting (and to point out how bad JM is.)

Bob

FanOf14
08-05-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The thing we are talking about is the cause of the results, not the results themselves. The cause is more important then the results since cause allows for more constant winning and not just streaks. The question of who to play at first should be answered by what gives your team a stronger chance to win, the result.

Everyone here wants the Sox to win, but they are not doing it this year. The Sox should have a 10 game lead on this division, but the offense struggled mightily the first of the year and brought the team down.

Just for giggles and curiosity, isn there some place online I can find what the wins and losses are when Thomas starts at first, when Daubach starts at first and when Konerko starts at first? Does mlb.com have splits like that?

gosox41
08-05-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Yes I am a fan of Konerko, but I really don't care if he is a DH or at 1B. BTW - never said I was the least biased, just sick of reading the same posts by the same people day in and day out. (I know, I know - ignore them) Like I said I am all for trading Konerko if it eliminates these threads. To reiterate what I said in my first post in this thread, I don't care who is at 1B as long as there is a check in the W column at the end of the day.

I'm all for trading Konerko because the Sox are grossly overpaying him and could be applying those assets to other holes.

Bob

Randar68
08-05-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Yes I am a fan of Konerko, but I really don't care if he is a DH or at 1B. BTW - never said I was the least biased, just sick of reading the same posts by the same people day in and day out. (I know, I know - ignore them) Like I said I am all for trading Konerko if it eliminates these threads. To reiterate what I said in my first post in this thread, I don't care who is at 1B as long as there is a check in the W column at the end of the day.

*****. Most don't want to run Konerko out of town. It is patently obvious to everyone but Manual what the intelligent decision is here. Jerry is so fond of L-L match-ups and playing guys when they have good histories against other pitchers, etc. However, he randomly chooses to ignore these "trends" in some cases and not others. Thomas-Konerko is one of those random situations.

I think he does it to try to prove the media wrong half the time. He wants to win in every possible random line-up or combination of moves possible.

What manager out there now with a job would pull their starter in the top of the 6th with a 3 run lead and he's only thrown 79 freaking pitches?!?!?!?

It's a joke of inconsistency that is maddening.

I am inches from the point of wanting to lose this season so they will get rid of that waste of space. He might be the least intelligent man in all of baseball.

FanOf14
08-05-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****. Most don't want to run Konerko out of town.

You *****. All I have been reading here is that we should trade him because he is overrated and because the money can be used elsewhere. Isn't that the same thing? Konerko/Thomas firstbase contoversy is hardly this team's biggest problem.

Dadawg_77
08-05-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****. Most don't want to run Konerko out of town. It is patently obvious to everyone but Manual what the intelligent decision is here. Jerry is so fond of L-L match-ups and playing guys when they have good histories against other pitchers, etc. However, he randomly chooses to ignore these "trends" in some cases and not others. Thomas-Konerko is one of those random situations.

I think he does it to try to prove the media wrong half the time. He wants to win in every possible random line-up or combination of moves possible.

What manager out there now with a job would pull their starter in the top of the 6th with a 3 run lead and he's only thrown 79 freaking pitches?!?!?!?

It's a joke of inconsistency that is maddening.

I am inches from the point of wanting to lose this season so they will get rid of that waste of space. He might be the least intelligent man in all of baseball.

I don't think JM does it to prove anyone wrong, I think he does because he feels a chip on his shoulder from the 2000 playoffs. His pride is forcing him to tinker so he will be seen as a great manager like Lou. The only problem with that is his tinkering seems to hurt the Sox chances to win, which to him means more tinkering. I don't remember him being this bad before with tinkering, hell in 2001, he stuck with Baines and forgot his name for month while they were batting .099.

Randar68
08-05-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
You *****. All I have been reading here is that we should trade him because he is overrated and because the money can be used elsewhere. Isn't that the same thing? Konerko/Thomas firstbase contoversy is hardly this team's biggest problem.

It's called "The vocal minority," ever hear of it? Most want Thomas at first and Konerko at DH. That is hardly "running him out of town." Methinks someone is taking this personally or has too large a bias making them a bit over-sensitive.

TornLabrum
08-05-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I don't think JM does it to prove anyone wrong, I think he does because he feels a chip on his shoulder from the 2000 playoffs. His pride is forcing him to tinker so he will be seen as a great manager like Lou. The only problem with that is his tinkering seems to hurt the Sox chances to win, which to him means more tinkering. I don't remember him being this bad before with tinkering, hell in 2001, he stuck with Baines and forgot his name for month while they were batting .099.

That would be Julio Ramirez.

Dadawg_77
08-05-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
You *****. All I have been reading here is that we should trade him because he is overrated and because the money can be used elsewhere. Isn't that the same thing? Konerko/Thomas firstbase contoversy is hardly this team's biggest problem.

In terms of the market place, Konerko is overrate on baseball skills in level with his pay. Look at last years FA 1b, the Sox could have signed several a comparable player for less two million each. The difference in payroll, then could have been used to fill in gaps such as another starter, or bullpen help. When you are running a team on a tight budget, a 4-5 million dollar cost overrun is a major hurtle to jump.

Randar68
08-05-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I don't think JM does it to prove anyone wrong, I think he does because he feels a chip on his shoulder from the 2000 playoffs. His pride is forcing him to tinker so he will be seen as a great manager like Lou. The only problem with that is his tinkering seems to hurt the Sox chances to win, which to him means more tinkering. I don't remember him being this bad before with tinkering, hell in 2001, he stuck with Baines and forgot his name for month while they were batting .099.

That's part of the frustrating part. It's not the same manager except by name. Maybe he feels he is a "veteran manager" now and can yank people up, down, left, right, etc just because. Heck, I don't know and I don't even care anymore.

:firejerry

Deadguy
08-06-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
I bet you didn't know this, but before yesterday, Konerko had the highest fielding percentage in the American League. Higher than Olerud. Higher than Mienkiewicz.

Figure THAT out.

That probably just means that Konerko has poor range. He's not getting to the balls that guys like Olerud, Doug M., J.T. Snow, and Jeff Bagwell can get to, so he doesn't have as many opportunities to let balls skip off his glove and be scored as errors. I'll take a guy with great range who has a mediocre fielding percentage anyday over a guy with terrible range and doesn't commit many errors.

Obviously Thomas has terrible range too, but if his offensive output is substantially better as a 1B, it's worth it to put him out there.

Randar68
08-06-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
That probably just means that Konerko has poor range. He's not getting to the balls that guys like Olerud, Doug M., J.T. Snow, and Jeff Bagwell can get to, so he doesn't have as many opportunities to let balls skip off his glove and be scored as errors. I'll take a guy with great range who has a mediocre fielding percentage anyday over a guy with terrible range and doesn't commit many errors.

Obviously Thomas has terrible range too, but if his offensive output is substantially better as a 1B, it's worth it to put him out there.

Oh yeah, for all your Konerko Defense-lovers, Thomas gets that ball from Crede late in yesterday's game.