PDA

View Full Version : My Own Sox Rant


Viva Magglio
08-05-2003, 12:35 AM
Almost 44,000 of us show up tonight, and this is how our beloved ballclub pays us back??? I am so disgusted with this game tonight. If I were the management of this organization, everyone who bought a ticket for tonight's debacle would be entitled to a free ticket for a future White Sox game based upon availability.

Jerry Manuel put himself right back under the blade of my guillotine with his pitching moves tonight. My mistake was taking him off the chopping block during the winning streak. Why the hell did he yank Jon Garland after 79 pitches??? I know Garland had that one bad inning and that he gave up a leadoff single in this particular inning. However, I think Manuel blew the game 1) taking Garland out too soon, and 2) leaving Scott Schoeneweis in too long.

That is not to say there were no other problems tonight. Our pitching, for instance, has given up 31 runs over the past three losses. And we made several mental mistakes in the field that played a collective role in the loss tonight. Frank and Mágglio each got a hit tonight, and we did swing the bat quite well tonight. However, we left too many on base early in the game.

Setbacks like this almost make me wish that we never went on that run in the first place. It's as if they tease us into thinking that we're for real. Then, they pull a bait and switch by playing like they did tonight. I am not going to say "season over" tonight. The reason for that is because they will probably tease us one or two more times and dupe us again.

I am just so disgusted with this team. I feel like they are a fraud and we fell for them hook, line, and sinker.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Almost 44,000 of us show up tonight, and this is how our beloved ballclub pays us back??? I am so disgusted with this game tonight. If I were the management of this organization, everyone who bought a ticket for tonight's debacle would be entitled to a free ticket for a future White Sox game based upon availability.

Jerry Manuel put himself right back under the blade of my guillotine with his pitching moves tonight. My mistake was taking him off the chopping block during the winning streak. Why the hell did he yank Jon Garland after 79 pitches??? I know Garland had that one bad inning and that he gave up a leadoff single in this particular inning. However, I think Manuel blew the game 1) taking Garland out too soon, and 2) leaving Scott Schoeneweis in too long.

That is not to say there were no other problems tonight. Our pitching, for instance, has given up 31 runs over the past three losses. And we made several mental mistakes in the field that played a collective role in the loss tonight. Frank and Mágglio each got a hit tonight, and we did swing the bat quite well tonight. However, we left too many on base early in the game.

Setbacks like this almost make me wish that we never went on that run in the first place. It's as if they tease us into thinking that we're for real. Then, they pull a bait and switch by playing like they did tonight. I am not going to say "season over" tonight. The reason for that is because they will probably tease us one or two more times and dupe us again.

I am just so disgusted with this team. I feel like they are a fraud and we fell for them hook, line, and sinker.


So did a lot of others, including me. I've just learned not to get my hopes up. Most of the problems you listed (other then the starting pitching) have been problems most of the year. 2 weeks of home runs blinded us from the faults, but they were still there.

For those who think this is a different Sox team, I disagree. Some of the players may have changed, but the crappy ball playing still lingers on...

Blueprint1
08-05-2003, 12:40 AM
Yep took the words right out of my mouth

chisox06
08-05-2003, 01:28 AM
Agreed 100%. JM singlehanded outmanaged himself a game. I get so frustrated at this guy. Garland's D let him down for the first 3, and that single in the 6th was off a damn good pitch. And then he burns up Gordon so he will be unavailable for the next 2 most important games of the series. I think Garland had some of the best stuff hes had all year, it almost seems that JM is addicted to Tinkering. He's a timebomb over there he just has to do something to screw up whatever is goin on.

Kilroy
08-05-2003, 01:35 AM
As much as I wanted to blame JM for yanking Garland after 79 pitches, I can't really.

Schoenweis got no one out. Whether or not Garland could have continued or not is not the issue. The relivers delivered some pretty piss-poor performances, end of story.

Just because the starter could have gone longer, doesn't change the fact that they didn't come thru and do their jobs. When he finally pulled him and got Ginter in, he was ejected along with him when Ginter intentionally plunked a Royal. So all that happened after that was pretty much on Nossek, w/out any evidence to the contrary.

TornLabrum
08-05-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
As much as I wanted to blame JM for yanking Garland after 79 pitches, I can't really.

Schoenweis got no one out. Whether or not Garland could have continued or not is not the issue. The relivers delivered some pretty piss-poor performances, end of story.

Just because the starter could have gone longer, doesn't change the fact that they didn't come thru and do their jobs. When he finally pulled him and got Ginter in, he was ejected along with him when Ginter intentionally plunked a Royal. So all that happened after that was pretty much on Nossek, w/out any evidence to the contrary.

A couple of points. First I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "Just because the starter could have gone longer doesn't change the fact that they didn't come thru and do their jobs." They wouldn't have had to come through if he had left Garland in.

According to the report I heard on the Score (I missed Bruce Levine's report because I was in the john), Manuel said he lifted him because he didn't like the way Garland looked on the mound tonight. Translation: "I removed him on a whim."

Manuel is an idiot (and we really do need an icon for that statement).

voodoochile
08-05-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
A couple of points. First I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "Just because the starter could have gone longer doesn't change the fact that they didn't come thru and do their jobs." They wouldn't have had to come through if he had left Garland in.

According to the report I heard on the Score (I missed Bruce Levin's report because I was in the john), Manuel said he lifted him because he didn't like the way Garland looked on the mound tonight. Translation: "I removed him on a whim."

Manuel is an idiot (and we really do need an icon for that statement).

:jerry
"whoops... turns out it was a spot on my glasses, John was fine... Oh well.. we'll get them tomorrow. Now since we lost, I am going to have to change things up just a little bit...

:firejerry

fuzzy_patters
08-05-2003, 02:01 AM
In JM's press conference, he listed two reasons for yanking Garland:

1) He has a history of giving up hits with two strikes, and he had just given one up.

2) Garland has a history of letting teams back into games.

I find it hard to disagree with either one of these, and, in fact, if Garland had let the Royals back in the game, I'm sure many of you would have bashed JM for that, too. I can hear it now, "There goes Tinkerer leaving Garland in to blow a lead again, and he was giving up those two strike hits to boot." It's not JM's fault that Schoenweiss did not get anybody out. He did the move that made the most since when you consider the history of his pitcher.

Anyway, I think the hitters are as much responsible for this game as anybody. The home plate umpire took the inside corner away from the pitchers, and the Royals were smart enough to take advantage of it. They tried to go the other way with the outside pitches and were able to extend rallies doing so. Meanwhile, our hitters were up there looking to hit bombs, but it was harder to hit them late in the game when the pitchers were no longer allowed to pitch inside. That seemed like a really dumb approach on their part.

Kilroy
08-05-2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
A couple of points. First I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "Just because the starter could have gone longer doesn't change the fact that they didn't come thru and do their jobs." They wouldn't have had to come through if he had left Garland in.


Yeah, but you can only make that statement after the fact. Hindsight being 20/20 and all. And if he leaves Garland in and the same thing happens, he's a moron for not getting him out.

Plain and simple, I expected Garland to get the next three guys out, but he wasn't in the game any more. My expectation didn't change when Schoenweis came in, but apparently yours did. You say that Garland shouldn't have been yanked, so you must have known that Schoenweis wouldn't get anyone out, right?

Whether or not Garland should have been pulled, you can't blame Manuel for the next pitcher not being able to get anyone out. Especially a guy who's been damn tough on leftys since he got here. He faced at least 4 in a row, and had no luck at all...

fuzzy_patters
08-05-2003, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Yeah, but you can only make that statement after the fact. Hindsight being 20/20 and all. And if he leaves Garland in and the same thing happens, he's a moron for not getting him out.

Plain and simple, I expected Garland to get the next three guys out, but he wasn't in the game any more. My expectation didn't change when Schoenweis came in, but apparently yours did. You say that Garland shouldn't have been yanked, so you must have known that Schoenweis wouldn't get anyone out, right?

Whether or not Garland should have been pulled, you can't blame Manuel for the next pitcher not being able to get anyone out. Especially a guy who's been damn tough on leftys since he got here. He faced at least 4 in a row, and had no luck at all...

I wonder how much Schoenweis's poor performance had to do with A) the home plate umpire not allowing him warm-up pitches after Tucker's injury and B) the home plate umpire taking away the inside corner with the stupid warnings and ejection.

Shoeless Joe
08-05-2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
As much as I wanted to blame JM for yanking Garland after 79 pitches, I can't really.

Schoenweis got no one out. Whether or not Garland could have continued or not is not the issue. The relivers delivered some pretty piss-poor performances, end of story.

Just because the starter could have gone longer, doesn't change the fact that they didn't come thru and do their jobs. When he finally pulled him and got Ginter in, he was ejected along with him when Ginter intentionally plunked a Royal. So all that happened after that was pretty much on Nossek, w/out any evidence to the contrary.

I agree with you Kilroy, the bullpen implosion was absolutely disgusting. The only guy who did anything good was Kelly Wunsch. And even though the yank on Garland was very quick, the bullpen had no reason to go out there and throw batting practice.

IronFisk
08-05-2003, 02:14 AM
Okay, what am I missing here - 3 run lead, one on first, 6th inning, 77 PITCHES?!?! Manuel simply paniced and pulled the trigger too soon. They said this about Neil Armstrong when he coached the Bears - too afraid to lose to win.

Garland at best should've been given the chance to get through the inning. Really helps the old confidence factor, eh?

I've seen way too much of this crap over the last 3 years, and I'm sick of it. Mark my words, the ONLY way they will win this division is if they FIRE MANUEL NOW - before we free fall any further. Even if somehow we win the division with him, we are TOAST in the first round (a-la 2000). :angry:

manuelsucks
08-05-2003, 02:25 AM
All I can say about this day is...what a let down. The Sox look liked they had they game in the bag, then there come Mr. I'll Fix It to break things up again. Garland was not pitching that bad and I really do think if he stayed in there he could have done some good. Then Schoenweis surprised that hell out of me by not even getting an out. I mean yesterday he struck out 3 Mariners in a row if memory serves me correct. I think that some of the this games loss also is to be blamed on the defense. They just haven't looked sharp recently. If this team could just get back to fundamental baseball, they could be in first place. Thats all it takes. I really do think that Jerry just made some terrible calls that really brought the team down.

By the way did anyone see Garland after he was taken out. I don't think he liked the fact that he was taken out. Then after the commercial break he threw his water down. I wonder if he was angry at JM for taking him out early, or angry at himself. I think he was more mad at JM and not himself.

Overall this loss reallllly pisses me off. If they don't pick up the pace and win the next two games I don't know what I'll do. Like someone said earlier, the Sox are a bunch of teases. :angry:

HITMEN OF 77
08-05-2003, 03:07 AM
The thing I can't understand is that Schoenweis wants to be a starter for us. How can he do that if he can't even record an out? I thought this guy was suppose to be good? Him and Danny Wright are in the same boat. I knew we should have kept Biddle!! Biddle at least had cool sideburns. At least we have one good thing going for us tomorrow...Loaiza!!

kittle42
08-05-2003, 04:09 AM
No one has mentioned the real problem in the game...Everett not getting to an easy flyout in the 6th that led to the first of the seven runs.

WhiteSox = Life
08-05-2003, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by kittle42
No one has mentioned the real problem in the game...Everett not getting to an easy flyout in the 6th that led to the first of the seven runs.

Everett is not the solution in CF and there have been a lot of plays he has been unable to make because of his lack of range. I'd rather have a CF who can gobble fly balls up than hit .270.

Oh, wait! Carl Everett does neither!

Dan H
08-05-2003, 07:46 AM
While I am not a Jerry Manuel fan, I am more concerned with a team that just doesn't make the plays when it needs to. That ninth inning throw by Gordon to third was ill advised to say the least. Yes, the aggressiveness was good, but that was not a force play. Then Joe Crede, in his haste to make a great play, made a bad one when he tried to tag the runner without the ball. As a result, KC ended up scoring three instead of one, and the game was all but out of reach. This type of stuff happens way too often.

I don't think we need to panic, but we do need to be concerned. Good teams execute in close games. The Sox offense, as good as it is, will not be able to overcome these mistakes when they face tougher competition and tougher pitching.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!


I am just so disgusted with this team. I feel like they are a fraud and we fell for them hook, line, and sinker.

Maybe that should read "hook, line, and tinker."

Bob

gosox41
08-05-2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by chisox06
Agreed 100%. JM singlehanded outmanaged himself a game. I get so frustrated at this guy. Garland's D let him down for the first 3, and that single in the 6th was off a damn good pitch. And then he burns up Gordon so he will be unavailable for the next 2 most important games of the series. I think Garland had some of the best stuff hes had all year, it almost seems that JM is addicted to Tinkering. He's a timebomb over there he just has to do something to screw up whatever is goin on.

Am I glad JM keeps playing Paul Konerko at 1B. That defense reallly helped last night.

Bob

bobj4400
08-05-2003, 09:23 AM
The release of Rick White because of his comments has had a detrimental effect on this team. I think they resent the fact that he was cut after speaking his mind. It came at the wrong time, and I think it will cost this team for the rest of the year.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
As much as I wanted to blame JM for yanking Garland after 79 pitches, I can't really.

Schoenweis got no one out. Whether or not Garland could have continued or not is not the issue. The relivers delivered some pretty piss-poor performances, end of story.


Yes the bullpen sucked, but there was no logical reason to take out Garland after 80 pitches. JM has no game plan when he manages.

By your logic, when Loiaza pitches today, it's OK to remove him for Schoeneweis in the 2nd inning when three lefties in a row come up (assuming Schoeneweis is eligible to pitch) befause he can get lefties out. Never mind how that effects the morale of the pitcher. Or the fact that the sooner you pull a starter the longer we need to sit on pins and needles watching a crappy bullpen.

Bob

gosox41
08-05-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
The thing I can't understand is that Schoenweis wants to be a starter for us. How can he do that if he can't even record an out? I thought this guy was suppose to be good? Him and Danny Wright are in the same boat. I knew we should have kept Biddle!! Biddle at least had cool sideburns. At least we have one good thing going for us tomorrow...Loaiza!!


Feel free to read the "I don't like the Schoneweis trade" thread I started a couple of days ago. Granted, I don't think he's as bad as he was last night, but he's not a starter.

Bob

gosox41
08-05-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
The release of Rick White because of his comments has had a detrimental effect on this team. I think they resent the fact that he was cut after speaking his mind. It came at the wrong time, and I think it will cost this team for the rest of the year.

So what you're saying is Sox managment f***** up again. I know you can't have a palyer talking out against a manager because it may lead to other players losing respect for Manuel.

The problem is the other players have no respect for JM.

Bob

soxfan45
08-05-2003, 09:58 AM
How can you guys get upset with 9 runs?

My gosh, I think the anamosity should be directed towards
Schoenweis, he stunk it up. This guy hasn't gotten many
batters out since he's been here.

What the heck is Flash doing pointing to the stars after he comes in and gets tattooed and finally strikes out 1 man?

Our bullpen scares the heck out of me.

I've got to agree with you guys though, I just don't understand what Manuel is doing sometimes. I don't know that he has the capacity to manage tight games. Sure, when we are up by 7 or 8 runs he's fine, but I don't think that Jerry has a good "feel"for situations. We were so outmanaged by Lou P. in Seattle several years ago and I don't think that Manuel has learned much since then. Its frustrating.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by soxfan45
How can you guys get upset with 9 runs?

My gosh, I think the anamosity should be directed towards
Schoenweis, he stunk it up. This guy hasn't gotten many
batters out since he's been here.

What the heck is Flash doing pointing to the stars after he comes in and gets tattooed and finally strikes out 1 man?

Our bullpen scares the heck out of me.

I've got to agree with you guys though, I just don't understand what Manuel is doing sometimes. I don't know that he has the capacity to manage tight games. Sure, when we are up by 7 or 8 runs he's fine, but I don't think that Jerry has a good "feel"for situations. We were so outmanaged by Lou P. in Seattle several years ago and I don't think that Manuel has learned much since then. Its frustrating.

When you leave like 8 guys on base in the first four innings and lose by 4 it's easy to not be satisifed. The problem with this team is it's all feast for famine. Home runs or nothing. The only guy that I don't think tries to swing for the fences is Roberto Alomar.


Bob

xil357
08-05-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
Everett is not the solution in CF and there have been a lot of plays he has been unable to make because of his lack of range. I'd rather have a CF who can gobble fly balls up than hit .270.

Oh, wait! Carl Everett does neither!

Could not have said it better myself. This team has enough power to compensate for a CF that may not hit well but can get to fly balls. I would have preferred Juan Pierre over Everett but now its too late. :angry:

Everett is not going to hit enough 3-run homers to make up for the amount of fly balls that he is not going to catch that lead to multi-run innings for the opposing teams. :angry:

Everett would be OK in LF if Lee could be packaged to obtain a legit CF. Oh, sorry, the non-waiver trade deadline has passed. They still need to go get Juan Pierre or another legit CF during the offseason because the black hole in CF is not going to fix itself. :angry:

The Sox also need bullpen help, and fast, and Frank needs to play 1B PRONTO. :angry:

If it is true that Manuel is playing favorites by putting PK at 1B all the time at the expense of a hot Frank at 1B, then he needs to be fired immediately. I have been one of Manuel's staunchest supporters but this is getting ridiculous. I am glad that PK is finally turning this season around but his complete absence through the AS break killed this team. How many 1-0 losses have the Sox suffered? How many of those could have been 2-1 wins if Frank played 1B in those games? :angry:

The season may hinge on the results of this series with KC, and the one at the end of the season, but I still will point to the very winnable games against Tampa Bay, Cleveland and Detroit if the Sox fail to win the division. They should be leading the division by at least 5 games at this point, not three back. :angry:

Carlton Fisk would get this team turned around in a very short time. Fisk would help with managing the pitchers, would be a great tutor for Olivo (a better mentor than Alomar), and would have this team HUSTLING and MAXIMIZING its superior talent. :angry:

JR, you better get on your knees and BEG Fisk to bail you out. :gulp:

Jerko
08-05-2003, 10:11 AM
The next person who says hindsight is 20/20 should have 20 poison tipped darts inserted slowly into each eye. Maybe then they will see that Manuel is a freakin idiot. Here's his excuses: "History has shown that Garland lets teams back into games". Well, Garland has sucked until this year, but he has been pitching well for a few months now, leave him in there. History also tells us that Dan Wright hasn't won a game yet this season and he's still in there. History also says that Thomas is better when he plays first, but we need Konerko's brass glove in there. So Manuel, don't hide behind history for one guy when history itself proves you wrong for every other move you make. I know these guys are pros, but I don't know if I would have used Schoeneweis in front of 44000 people for his first home pitching experience either. I guess we are to believe that Manuel knows all of Schoenewies' strengths and weaknesses after one week on the team when he doesn't know anybody else's that he's been managing for years. The guy is a complete joke, and if his in-game decisions aren't enough for you to see that, then surely his "explanations" (excuses) after these debacles must be. Let's get rid of him after the year and all the veteran players that we signed to win now, and we're 9 months away from being the Reds. That makes me laugh, we sign all these players to win "now" and leave Manuel in charge. What a joke.

bobj4400
08-05-2003, 10:21 AM
I dont know what to think about the rest of this year. If the Sox tank, Manuel will be gone, but the team will be a joke next year. This franchise cannot handle another extended period of losing or it will implode.

If we somehow win in spite of Tinkerbell this year, he will be back next year to frustrate us and give us all ulcers again.

gosox41
08-05-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
I dont know what to think about the rest of this year. If the Sox tank, Manuel will be gone, but the team will be a joke next year. This franchise cannot handle another extended period of losing or it will implode.

If we somehow win in spite of Tinkerbell this year, he will be back next year to frustrate us and give us all ulcers again.

That's the problem. I want to win ASAP, but we all know JR will keep JM around. Unless of course, the fan backlash is so strong against JM. Again, I urge all of you to call/write the White Sox and as fans explain why you can't stand this team.

Bob

Paulwny
08-05-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
While I am not a Jerry Manuel fan, I am more concerned with a team that just doesn't make the plays when it needs to. That ninth inning throw by Gordon to third was ill advised to say the least. Yes, the aggressiveness was good, but that was not a force play. Then Joe Crede, in his haste to make a great play, made a bad one when he tried to tag the runner without the ball. As a result, KC ended up scoring three instead of one, and the game was all but out of reach. This type of stuff happens way too often.

I don't think we need to panic, but we do need to be concerned. Good teams execute in close games. The Sox offense, as good as it is, will not be able to overcome these mistakes when they face tougher competition and tougher pitching.

Also, either Alomar or Valentin asleep and not covering 2nd base during a steal, on the sac bunt , Crede back-tracking and then pointing to 1st leaving Olivo to eat the ball.
It appears that everone of the royals can sac bunt and have learned situational hitting.
JM should throw out his st obstacle course and spend the time on teaching fundamentals, hopefully he won't be at next yrs. st.

i_luv_jgarland
08-05-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by manuelsucks


By the way did anyone see Garland after he was taken out. I don't think he liked the fact that he was taken out.



Duh. I think this is the understatement of the thread.