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gosox41
08-04-2003, 12:17 AM
I think all internal problems of a team should remain in the clubhouse and settled there. I do admit I liked what Rick White said about Manuel. It may noth ave been write, but it's exactly what I (and a lot of thers here) have been complaining about for the last 3 years...too much tinkering.

My question is, why did Paul Konerko get praised for being a team leader last year when he whined in the media about Frank not showing up on time but White gets a lot of grief for calling out JM's obivous flaws this year?

Is it because the team is on a win streak? I doubt this would be tolerated if the team were losing? Is it because JM is the manager while Frank is just a player? Again, White is simply commenting on a flaw in JMs managing ability just like PK is commenting on Frank's inability to run on time. Both are mental errors that should be easily rectified. I thought it might be because White wasn't doing well while Konerko made those comments while he was playing well. Of course if White was pitching well when he said those things, then am I to assume he would have been praised like Konerko was last year as a great leader??

koch44
08-04-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I think all internal problems of a team should remain in the clubhouse and settled there. I do admit I liked what Rick White said about Manuel. It may noth ave been write, but it's exactly what I (and a lot of thers here) have been complaining about for the last 3 years...too much tinkering.

My question is, why did Paul Konerko get praised for being a team leader last year when he whined in the media about Frank not showing up on time but White gets a lot of grief for calling out JM's obivous flaws this year?

Is it because the team is on a win streak? I doubt this would be tolerated if the team were losing? Is it because JM is the manager while Frank is just a player? Again, White is simply commenting on a flaw in JMs managing ability just like PK is commenting on Frank's inability to run on time. Both are mental errors that should be easily rectified. I thought it might be because White wasn't doing well while Konerko made those comments while he was playing well. Of course if White was pitching well when he said those things, then am I to assume he would have been praised like Konerko was last year as a great leader??

Well, at the time Pauly was playing well for the Sox, he was also on the all-star team, and he was calling out a PLAYER, not a member of the coaching staff. White just criticized Manuel, so I'm sure that got KW, and JR upset, and on top of all this White had been doing a pretty crappy job for the Sox, so that is why it made White look worse.

OEO Magglio
08-04-2003, 12:25 AM
Well I really think the reason is because at that time the sox were in the middle of a huge winning streak, and a time like that you don't want anybody disturbing what is going on with the team, when Pauly made those comments the team was playing awful.

gosox41
08-04-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by koch44
Well, at the time Pauly was playing well for the Sox, he was also on the all-star team, and he was calling out a PLAYER, not a member of the coaching staff. White just criticized Manuel, so I'm sure that got KW, and JR upset, and on top of all this White had been doing a pretty crappy job for the Sox, so that is why it made White look worse.

While it's wrong to call anyone out in the media, if anybody on this team deserved to be called out it was JM. He's a big reason why this team hasn't performed well on paper and is now in second place down 2 games instead of being in first place up 8-10 games. From a fans POV it's more frustrating for me to watch this non-stop tinkering and JM making the same stupid moves then it is to see White mouthing off. It needed to be said. Would the media perceive it differently if Magglio came out and ripped JM's tinkering? What about Frank?

Bob

gosox41
08-04-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Well I really think the reason is because at that time the sox were in the middle of a huge winning streak, and a time like that you don't want anybody disturbing what is going on with the team, when Pauly made those comments the team was playing awful.

Then it's too bad White didn't say this earlier in the season. I doubt he's the only person on the team to not like what JM does.

Bob

OEO Magglio
08-04-2003, 12:37 AM
Then it's too bad White didn't say this earlier in the season. I doubt he's the only person on the team to not like what JM does.
I agree with you that he's not the only person who probably doesn't like what JM does, but the thing is you just don't call out your manager when your team is playing so great, that's just not a smart thing to do.

koch44
08-04-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
While it's wrong to call anyone out in the media, if anybody on this team deserved to be called out it was JM. He's a big reason why this team hasn't performed well on paper and is now in second place down 2 games instead of being in first place up 8-10 games. From a fans POV it's more frustrating for me to watch this non-stop tinkering and JM making the same stupid moves then it is to see White mouthing off. It needed to be said. Would the media perceive it differently if Magglio came out and ripped JM's tinkering? What about Frank?

Bob

I agree with you totally, it's that idiots like JR don't, and Rick White could've helped us as a veteran in the bullpen for the playoffs (assuming we make them), but now will just have to be satisfied with Wrong, and Ginter for the run to the playoffs. :angry:

:selljerry

WhiteSox = Life
08-04-2003, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by koch44
I agree with you totally, it's that idiots like JR don't, and Rick White could've helped us as a veteran in the bullpen for the playoffs (assuming we make them), but now will just have to be satisfied with Wrong, and Ginter for the run to the playoffs. :angry:

:selljerry

And don't forget...

:firejerry

TornLabrum
08-04-2003, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I think all internal problems of a team should remain in the clubhouse and settled there. I do admit I liked what Rick White said about Manuel. It may noth ave been write, but it's exactly what I (and a lot of thers here) have been complaining about for the last 3 years...too much tinkering.

My question is, why did Paul Konerko get praised for being a team leader last year when he whined in the media about Frank not showing up on time but White gets a lot of grief for calling out JM's obivous flaws this year?

Is it because the team is on a win streak? I doubt this would be tolerated if the team were losing? Is it because JM is the manager while Frank is just a player? Again, White is simply commenting on a flaw in JMs managing ability just like PK is commenting on Frank's inability to run on time. Both are mental errors that should be easily rectified. I thought it might be because White wasn't doing well while Konerko made those comments while he was playing well. Of course if White was pitching well when he said those things, then am I to assume he would have been praised like Konerko was last year as a great leader??

I look at it with this analogy. If I criticize another teacher where I work, I'll probably get a reprimand, but I doubt if I'll get fired. If I criticize the principal or superintendent, I imagine I'll have to run pretty quick to avoid the door hitting my fanny.

You don't knock your boss in public.

TornLabrum
08-04-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I agree with you that he's not the only person who probably doesn't like what JM does, but the thing is you just don't call out your manager when your team is playing so great, that's just not a smart thing to do.

You're right. Jose Valentin criticized Manuel in the same article. He also said essentially the same thing over a week before at a Windy City Sox Fans luncheon. I haven't heard of him being called on the carpet, but who knows?

WhiteSox = Life
08-04-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
You're right. Jose Valentin criticized Manuel in the same article. He also said essentially the same thing over a week before at a Windy City Sox Fans luncheon. I haven't heard of him being called on the carpet, but who knows?

I think overall team attitude coupled with team experience plays into situations like this.

Valentin has been on this team for a few years now, and has been a team leader and someone who has always been outspoken against the team's lackadaisacal playing. Valentin, despite his overall numbers, always plays hard and usually comes up big in big series. His speaking out is tolerated. White, the same guy that battled with Koch for team ERA, has a good month or two and decides to speak out. That's not tolerated, and he gets canned.

I know it's a double standard, but I think the length Valentin has been on the team along with the way he always plays and is outspoken allows him to say stuff that White can't. I believe this is near to the thinking that is going on.

Not to mention, White can be canned since he's only earning, what a million dollars? Josť is earning $4-6 million, IIRC? I wouldn't be surprised if money plays into this, too. In fact, I'd be more surprised if money didn't play into the final decision.

The more I think about it, the more confusing it all becomes.

:smile:

OEO Magglio
08-04-2003, 01:42 AM
You're right. Jose Valentin criticized Manuel in the same article. He also said essentially the same thing over a week before at a Windy City Sox Fans luncheon. I haven't heard of him being called on the carpet, but who knows?
Yeah, but Jose was smarter in what he said, he didn't just come out and criticize jm, he just said he likes to know where he's going to bat, it seems to me Jose was just smarter the way he went about it.

fquaye149
08-04-2003, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by gosox41

My question is, why did Paul Konerko get praised for being a team leader last year when he whined in the media about Frank not showing up on time but White gets a lot of grief for calling out JM's obivous flaws this year?


it is cut and dry and has nothing to do with politics in the slightest.

a.) there's an immense difference between jacking up a teammate and jacking up a coach...and while most of us don't think of manuel as worth of respect, he is the manager and "more worthy of respect" than a superstar player. think about reggie jackson when he showed up billy martin. who was the ******* there?

b.) konerko was criticizing frank's attitude not his ability to do his job. white's comments at manuel's managerial shortcomings are akin to if frank this year had busted paul's balls for hitting .190. there's no reason to do it.

bottom line is, white showed up a man who for the time being is his manager BEHIND HIS BACK. white reports to manuel who reports to kw who reports to jr. so manuel is white's boss and he is showing him up behind his back. how would that work out for you if you did that?

as you can see it's a huge difference...although i can empathize with white

voodoochile
08-04-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
My question is, why did Paul Konerko get praised for being a team leader last year when he whined in the media about Frank not showing up on time but White gets a lot of grief for calling out JM's obivous flaws this year?



It's because Konerko ripped on Frank and Frank is the ONLY Sox player who EVER deserves to be ripped for not putting up numbers that aren't merely good but other-worldly. Frank's numbers were "Only as good" as Konerko's last year, so clearly Konerko had the right to rip on Frank. Manuel started it, Williams chimed in and Reinsy has made his sentiment known by staying quiet in the whole affair.

Actually, it has as much to do with Konerko's contract as anything. If the Sox had been dumb enough to hand White and uncuttable/untradable contract then he would still be on the team too...

MarqSox
08-04-2003, 12:48 PM
Unless you're a star, you don't criticize your boss publicly. End of story. White was hardly a star, and even if what he said was right, it was inappropriate to mouth off -- ESPECIALLY during a win streak.

It's one thing to grumble to a reporter off the record, or to approach JM or KW in private. But no good can come from creating a public feud with the manager. I respect White for having the cajones to stand by what he said, but the bottom line is, he was stupid to say it.