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Jerko
08-03-2003, 11:39 AM
Manuel said he won't start Thomas on Sunday in Seattle so he has a better chance of getting his 2,000th hit in Chicago. ...


Nothing better than worrying about that crap than winning a game.

adsit
08-03-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Manuel said he won't start Thomas on Sunday in Seattle so he has a better chance of getting his 2,000th hit in Chicago. ...


Nothing better than worrying about that crap than winning a game.

Don't forget it's been a long, six day road trip, and these guys are gonna be tired today...

Nine positions + 14 position players = at least 126 possible lineup combinations. Jerry's still got a shot at trying them all.

harwar
08-03-2003, 11:56 AM
Nothing JM does surprises me anymore.
Also,i'm wondering why he started Sandy Alomar over Olivo.Buehrle hasn't lost since Sandy became his personal catcher.He just reads the signs and pitches.I don't see how Sandy can come back and play today so that means Olivo will be catching Mark.It doesn't make any sense unless Olivo is hurt.

fquaye149
08-03-2003, 12:17 PM
why jump on manuel for this...

it's a nice way of saying the guy's 0 for his last 20 something


i think we have a better chance of winning today if frank's not in the lineup if he's gonna go 0 for his life again

LauraJ14
08-03-2003, 12:27 PM
Frank Thomas has hit like crap since he came out and said he was going to be a home run hitter. All he has done is pop-up everything! Go back to what you were doing before and help this team win a championship!

valposoxfan
08-03-2003, 01:00 PM
Wow, finally some reason on the final two posts here. I'm sure Jerry is not sitting him out just because he wants him to get 2,000 in Chicago. That was his clever way of saying Frank isn't playing today. C'mon already. Get off your Fire Manuel high horse for two seconds. He has been crap this entire road trip. Give him the day off and get Daubach in there.

voodoochile
08-03-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
Wow, finally some reason on the final two posts here. I'm sure Jerry is not sitting him out just because he wants him to get 2,000 in Chicago. That was his clever way of saying Frank isn't playing today. C'mon already. Get off your Fire Manuel high horse for two seconds. He has been crap this entire road trip. Give him the day off and get Daubach in there.

How tired can Frank be? He has been DH'ing for the last 2 weeks. Maybe it isn't exhaustion, maybe it's pent up energy and frustration. You want to get Frank going? Put him at first today and put Daubach at DH.

The only one on this team who gets tired is Jerry himself and if he would stop overthinking the game, maybe that would become a thing of the past too...

Hold on... a wide awake Jerry may not be a good thing after all...

Shoeless Joe
08-03-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
it's a nice way of saying the guy's 0 for his last 20 something

Actually Miguel Olivo has a five game hitting streak and had a one hit advantage lifetime against Franklin (1-3) than Sandy (0-7). But then again it really doesn't matter at this point. Jerry will continue to shuffle his lineup until Pandora's Box is finally solved.

voodoochile
08-03-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe
Actually Miguel Olivo has a five game hitting streak and had a one hit advantage lifetime against Franklin (1-3) than Sandy (0-7). But then again it really doesn't matter at this point. Jerry will continue to shuffle his lineup until Pandora's Box is finally solved.

Well, here's hoping it has a better solution than last time someone did it...

TornLabrum
08-03-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by harwar
Nothing JM does surprises me anymore.
Also,i'm wondering why he started Sandy Alomar over Olivo.Buehrle hasn't lost since Sandy became his personal catcher.He just reads the signs and pitches.I don't see how Sandy can come back and play today so that means Olivo will be catching Mark.It doesn't make any sense unless Olivo is hurt.

From yesterday's pre-game radio show: "Danny is used to having Sandy as his catcher, so we want to make him as comfortable as possible out there.

Screw Buehrle! We had to make Wright comfortable!

TornLabrum
08-03-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
Frank Thomas has hit like crap since he came out and said he was going to be a home run hitter. All he has done is pop-up everything! Go back to what you were doing before and help this team win a championship!

Frank has hit like crap since he hit #1999. He's pressing.

Scotty347
08-03-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by harwar
Nothing JM does surprises me anymore.
Also,i'm wondering why he started Sandy Alomar over Olivo.Buehrle hasn't lost since Sandy became his personal catcher.He just reads the signs and pitches.I don't see how Sandy can come back and play today so that means Olivo will be catching Mark.It doesn't make any sense unless Olivo is hurt.

As much as I'd love to see Olivo (especially after the way Sandy was tossing the ball yesterday when trying to throw out baserunners), there is nothing different happening today than has been the case the entire year.

Sandy has been the catcher for Buehrle and Danny Wright and Olivo has caught everybody else. There is no reason to change this right now.

As for Frank, I don't have a problem keeping him out of the lineup, he has been awful on this road trip. Hopefully sitting him today will straighten him out for tomorrow's game against the Royals.

jeremyb1
08-03-2003, 02:44 PM
you know, these arguments are just pathetic. anyone who denies that fans will crucify manuel for everything he does one way or another should read this thread and examine what is some of the most terrible logic i've ever seen used only to bash the manager. manuel did it so i'll have to find out reasons to classify it as "tinkering" and blame him for anything that happens to this ball club.

yeah, its really a shame we won't have frank in the lineup his at bat has been such a great help lately. frank needs some days off to recollect himself. ever since shortly after his home run speach about "airing it out" he's stopped taking walks and started swinging for the fences so that he doesn't keep his front shoulder down and hits a lot of fly balls. lets leave him in there every single day without rest as a whole in the middle of the lineup and at the same time encourage his disasterous approach at the plate.

now, someone is going to have to clarify to me exactly what is meant when one refers to manuel's "tinkering". i was always under the impression the argument was that manuel is a poor manager because he does not stick with a set lineup and by constantly shuffling the lineup around he confuses players as to what their roles are, in turn hurting their production. sandy alomar has been the catcher of mark buehrle and danny wright when he is healthy ever since wright came off the dl a month into the season. it would seem to me having alomar catch wright last night gives those two players consistency and helps define their roles. wright knows he will be caught by the same catcher with the same game plan every time out and alomar knows which days he'll be catching in advance. wouldn't having alomar catch wright be the anti-thesis of "tinkering"?!?!?! WHAT is the problem here?!

valposoxfan
08-03-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How tired can Frank be? He has been DH'ing for the last 2 weeks. Maybe it isn't exhaustion, maybe it's pent up energy and frustration. You want to get Frank going? Put him at first today and put Daubach at DH.

The only one on this team who gets tired is Jerry himself and if he would stop overthinking the game, maybe that would become a thing of the past too...

Hold on... a wide awake Jerry may not be a good thing after all...

No one said he was tired...he's just struggling. I see nothing wrong with sitting out a guy who is hitless on the road trip for one game...

RKMeibalane
08-03-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
No one said he was tired...he's just struggling. I see nothing wrong with sitting out a guy who is hitless on the road trip for one game...

He did have a hit during the KC series. I think Manuel should put him back at first once they get home, so he won't be thinking about number two thousand as much. Last night, he had a good pitch to hit, and he hooked it foul. I'm glad that he's sitting out today.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by adsit
Don't forget it's been a long, six day road trip, and these guys are gonna be tired today...

Nine positions + 14 position players = at least 126 possible lineup combinations. Jerry's still got a shot at trying them all.

Ah-HA! I knew that business degree of mine would come in handy some day! The actual number of permutations of 14 ballplayers playing 9 positions is...

14 x 13 x 12 x 11 x 10 x 9 x 8 x 7 x 6 = ????

Also, if you want to allow for every possible batting position for each starting nine, you must take the product above and multiply as follows...

"X from above" x 9 x 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = the total # of lineups possible for 9 different positions involving 14 different ballplayers

Hey, my lousy salesman's profit calculator maxes out. Somebody with a scientific function help a brother Sox Fan out! :smile:

:jerry
"Whew! I've got a lot of work ahead of me!!!"

:versatile
"Don't worry, Jerry. Now that I'm gone, you can cut the potential number of positions and lineups by at least half!"

Jerko
08-03-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
why jump on manuel for this...

it's a nice way of saying the guy's 0 for his last 20 something


i think we have a better chance of winning today if frank's not in the lineup if he's gonna go 0 for his life again


So I guess the fact that he batted .380 something while playing first base means we can't try that anymore. Oh, I forgot, we're so great we clinched the divison Friday night, let's go back to tinkering every day, the very thing that got us so far behind in the first place. EVERY game counts; we can't be farting around vs. Seattle when KC is beating TB. I can hear JM now: "Oh, Frank is in a slump, so instead of just putting him a situation where he hits better, like at first base, let's just bench him today, especailly since the Royals are winning already". Stupid.

RKMeibalane
08-03-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Stupid.

That word should now be considered synonymous with Jerry Manuel.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Ah-HA! I knew that business degree of mine would come in handy some day! The actual number of permutations of 14 ballplayers playing 9 positions is...

14 x 13 x 12 x 11 x 10 x 9 x 8 x 7 x 6 = ????

Also, if you want to allow for every possible batting position for each starting nine, you must take the product above and multiply as follows...

"X from above" x 9 x 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = the total # of lineups possible for 9 different positions involving 14 different ballplayers

Hey, my lousy salesman's profit calculator maxes out. Somebody with a scientific function help a brother Sox Fan out! :smile:

:jerry
"Whew! I've got a lot of work ahead of me!!!"

:versatile
"Don't worry, Jerry. Now that I'm gone, you can cut the potential number of positions and lineups by at least half!"

Hey, I just remembered this computer has a calculator built into it. What will Gates think of next? :smile:

The total number of permutations Jerry Manuel can possibly create of 9 positions involving 14 possible ballplayers = 726,485,760.

If Manuel decides to slot those 9 starters in every possible slot in his lineup card, the total number of permutations = 2,636,271,588,800.

That's over 2.6 trillion possible lineups, folks.

Somebody ought to send this to Manuel. He'll probably use it as his newest excuse next time Greenstein asks him tough questions.

:jerry
"You think I'm tinkering? Have you ever calculated how many lineups are possible? I have..."

:bandance:

guillen4life13
08-03-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey, I just remembered this computer has a calculator built into it. What will Gates think of next? :smile:

The total number of permutations Jerry Manuel can possibly create of 9 positions involving 14 possible ballplayers = 726,485,760.

If Manuel decides to slot those 9 starters in every possible slot in his lineup card, the total number of permutations = 2,636,271,588,800.

That's over 2.6 trillion possible lineups, folks.

Somebody ought to send this to Manuel. He'll probably use it as his newest excuse next time Greenstein asks him tough questions.

:jerry
"You think I'm tinkering? Have you ever calculated how many lineups are possible? I have..."

:bandance:

I bet JM reads this site every once in a while. Don't give him such hazardous ideas that would appeal to him! :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey, I just remembered this computer has a calculator built into it. What will Gates think of next? :smile:

The total number of permutations Jerry Manuel can possibly create of 9 positions involving 14 possible ballplayers = 726,485,760.

If Manuel decides to slot those 9 starters in every possible slot in his lineup card, the total number of permutations = 2,636,271,588,800.

That's over 2.6 trillion possible lineups, folks.

Somebody ought to send this to Manuel. He'll probably use it as his newest excuse next time Greenstein asks him tough questions.

:jerry
"You think I'm tinkering? Have you ever calculated how many lineups are possible? I have..."

:bandance:

Wait a minute. Stop the dancing! Does my calculation adjust for the fact each ballplayer can only play one position per starting lineup? Technically they can play more than one position during the course of a game, but we shouldn't count Manuel's tinkering once the game begins.

I'll have to work on this one some more...

:smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Wait a minute. Stop the dancing! Does my calculation adjust for the fact each ballplayer can only play one position per starting lineup? Technically they can play more than one position during the course of a game, but we shouldn't count Manuel's tinkering once the game begins.

I'll have to work on this one some more...

:smile:

Okay, I've been puzzling this out and I'm confident my original calculations are correct. There are over 700 million ways Manuel can field a starting nine using 14 different ballplayers. Furthermore, if Manuel wants to slot those 700 million combinations in every possible batting order, he has 2.6 trillion permutations to work through.

LMAO! The more I analyze this, the more Manuel looks like Cito Gaston. How many lineups did the Jays use back in the early-90's? Ten? :smile:

:jerry
"Damn you, PHG! You have the balls to call me the Tinkerer(er)!"

adsit
08-03-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Ah-HA! I knew that business degree of mine would come in handy some day!

Yes, indeed it has... I forgot about that exponential factor, but then again, I went to a liberal arts school. :cool:

I will, however, stand by my original statement:"Jerry's still got a shot at trying them all.":D:

Jerko
08-03-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Okay, I've been puzzling this out and I'm confident my original calculations are correct. There are over 700 million ways Manuel can field a starting nine using 14 different ballplayers. Furthermore, if Manuel wants to slot those 700 million combinations in every possible batting order, he has 2.6 trillion permutations to work through.

LMAO! The more I analyze this, the more Manuel looks like Cito Gaston. How many lineups did the Jays use back in the early-90's? Ten? :smile:

:jerry
"Damn you, PHG! You have the balls to call me the Tinkerer(er)!"


How many years will that take since it seems he'll be here the whole time.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-03-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
How many years will that take since it seems he'll be here the whole time.

2.6 trillion lineups divided by 162 games per season = over 16 million years.

LMAO! Maybe Williams ought to get NASA involved in this.

:KW
"I'll trade you my manager for one of those shuttles."

jeremyb1
08-03-2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
So I guess the fact that he batted .380 something while playing first base means we can't try that anymore. Oh, I forgot, we're so great we clinched the divison Friday night, let's go back to tinkering every day, the very thing that got us so far behind in the first place. EVERY game counts; we can't be farting around vs. Seattle when KC is beating TB. I can hear JM now: "Oh, Frank is in a slump, so instead of just putting him a situation where he hits better, like at first base, let's just bench him today, especailly since the Royals are winning already". Stupid.

giving frank the day off and whether he should play first base or dh are more or less completely unrelated issues. most players get a day off every 9 or 10 days. no one ever calls lou pinella a tinkerer. also, you give absolutely no argument as to how one sunday day game following a night game constitutes a "return to tinkering". if we have anything less than our regular lineup in there tommorow maybe you have an argument but otherwise, this is simply one game. relax.

JUGGERNAUT
08-03-2003, 09:33 PM
First, it's best to calculate per game & per inning, because every time you use a player it consumes that player for the next ab.

14 or 25 players depending on whether you allow pitchers to hit.
There really is no rule in the AL (that I know of) that prevents it.

But let's assume JM would never be so bizarre & stick with 14.

The worst case scenario is that JM chooses a different player for the first 14 ab thereby exhausting all his players.

That's 105 possibilites for a game.
=14+13+12+11+10+...+1

It matters not that there are 162 games because, he only has 105 possibilities to choose from for any game.

So with a fixed roster, at most JM can attempt 105 different lineups.

However; we know the SOX never have a fixed roster. So in terms of actual players let's assume a worse case of 50 players for JM to choose from.

=50+..+1 = 2360

It's actually less because of the time it takes to replace a player & the fact that only 14 can actually fill a roster spot for any 1 game.

Still an awful lot to choose from for the Tinkerer.

FJA
08-03-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
giving frank the day off and whether he should play first base or dh are more or less completely unrelated issues. most players get a day off every 9 or 10 days. no one ever calls lou pinella a tinkerer. also, you give absolutely no argument as to how one sunday day game following a night game constitutes a "return to tinkering". if we have anything less than our regular lineup in there tommorow maybe you have an argument but otherwise, this is simply one game. relax.

I agree ... I'm usually a Manuel hater, but I have no problem with him in this game.

Robbie asked for a day off (Link (Bottom) (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030802insidesox,1,1960650.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)).

Frank needed a day off. If Manuel starts him at 1st tomorrow, that might be a good move, but either way, Frank badly needed to collect himself. Konerko ... obviously he's a hotter hitter than Daubach, but I also think it is imperative we get Daubach some more at bats, as we will need him off the bench if we get to the playoffs. Daubach was going to have a game in the starting lineup sooner or later, and quite frankly, I'd rather have it now than against KC.

The big question for me is Olivo in for Sandy ... I didn't get a chance to watch today's game, so does anyone know if the reasoning is anything other than not wanting to wear Sandy out? Didn't Wright and Buehrle sometimes have back-to-back games before Sandy got hurt and while Wright was still here? If not, I'd rather have Sandy catching Buerhle, taking our chances with Wright/Olivo. It is obvious that Buehrle works much better with Sandy--as obvious as it is that Buehrle, no matter who is catching, gives the Sox a better chance to win than Wright does.

The only other thing I can come up with is maybe Manuel knew all along that this was going to be a big day off, and given that, he wanted to give us the best chance to go into the Sunday game having already won the first two games. Then it makes more sense to stick Alomar with Wright. I wouldn't call this overthinking at all ... it didn't quite work out, but if it did, we'd all be acknowledging "good move."

Really, this game's lineup doesn't bother me much, whereas if it were another game, it might. What happened was Manuel wanted to give a few guys a day off and he put a lot of faith in Buehrle and tried to give some guys who usually don't get a shot a chance to win a game offensively. If starters are tired (and as much as none of us like to believe it, that does happen), I'd say it's better to reload for the KC series, which matters a hell of a lot more than the rubber match of a Seattle series. It would have been nice to win, but we had a 4-2 road trip where we had a net gain of two games on the first place team--nothing to be ashamed of. If this lineup were to come back tomorrow, I'd be livid, but it won't. If guys like Frank and Robbie look revitalized tomorrow (and let's face it, they looked like corpses Saturday night), we might look back on this game as a good move by Manuel. We'll wait and see ...

TornLabrum
08-03-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by FJA
I agree ... I'm usually a Manuel hater, but I have no problem with him in this game.

Robbie asked for a day off

"Kind of informed me..."? Is that like that pulled muscle in Frank's leg?

gosox41
08-03-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey, I just remembered this computer has a calculator built into it. What will Gates think of next? :smile:

The total number of permutations Jerry Manuel can possibly create of 9 positions involving 14 possible ballplayers = 726,485,760.

If Manuel decides to slot those 9 starters in every possible slot in his lineup card, the total number of permutations = 2,636,271,588,800.

That's over 2.6 trillion possible lineups, folks.

Somebody ought to send this to Manuel. He'll probably use it as his newest excuse next time Greenstein asks him tough questions.

:jerry
"You think I'm tinkering? Have you ever calculated how many lineups are possible? I have..."

:bandance:


:jerry
Just to keep all you Sox fans on your toes, I may start batting pitchers in the everyday line up. An OF of Koch, Wunsch, and Schoneweis is a dream for me. Try to fiure out how many options I have now. I get excited just thinking about it.

Bob

gosox41
08-03-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


:KW
"I'll trade you my manager for one of those shuttles."

LMAO. There's a very taseteless joke for this quote, but I'll refrain.

Bob

gosox41
08-03-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
"Kind of informed me..."? Is that like that pulled muscle in Frank's leg?

Maybe he told JM in Spanish, and since JM isn't that fluent he just assumed Roberto wanted a day off so JM could continue tinkering.

Bob

WhiteSox = Life
08-04-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
LMAO. There's a very taseteless joke for this quote, but I'll refrain.

Bob

With the taste left in our mouths after last night's and today's bad losses, tastelessness would actually be savored.

:(:

WhiteSox = Life
08-04-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Maybe he told JM in Spanish, and since JM isn't that fluent he just assumed Roberto wanted a day off so JM could continue tinkering.

Bob

:ralomar:
"Jerry, yo quiero jugar hoy."

:jerry
"Uh... Yeah. Okay."