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JUGGERNAUT
07-30-2003, 10:03 AM
Since the trade for Schow is 2004 related let's discuss it:

Alomar & Everett: gone.
I don't see the SOX putting out 5-7mil/yr for 3 yrs for either of them.

Koney: gone.
I don't see the SOX putting out 7-8mil/yr for a 1/2 season player.

Lee: signs for 15/3.
Crede: slight raise.
Harris/Miles: slight raise, 2B.
Maggs: signs for 70/5.
Rowand: slight raise.
Valentin: 1 yr 3MIL
S. Alomar: 1 yr 1MIL
Thomas: 7MIL

Beuhrle: signs 1 yr 4MIL
Garland: signs 1 yr 3MIL
E-LO: 4MIL
Schow: arbits 1 yr 2MIL
Colon: signs 50/5

Marte: 2MIL arbit
Gordon: 3MIL

Koch: gone
White: gone

1B: New guy (Borchy?)

mandmandm
07-30-2003, 10:08 AM
I think we can get Robbie for a bargain if he can continue to play with his brother. Bartlo might also sign for slightless less if he has is old Cleveland buddies around.

Dadawg_77
07-30-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
I think we can get Robbie for a bargain if he can continue to play with his brother. Bartlo might also sign for slightless less if he has is old Cleveland buddies around.

The thing is the Sox will have a hard time singing Robbie for less. Since the Sox own his rights, they will have to offer him arbitration by mid Dec in order to keep him, which means he can only take a 20% pay reduction. If the Sox don't want to pay him seven million they don't offer him arbitration and then they can't resign him untill May 1st.

Randar68
07-30-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The thing is the Sox will have a hard time singing Robbie for less. Since the Sox own his rights, they will have to offer him arbitration by mid Dec in order to keep him, which means he can only take a 20% pay reduction. If the Sox don't want to pay him seven million they don't offer him arbitration and then they can't resign him untill May 1st.

They can sign him for less if they sign him before offerring arbitration.

Gumshoe
07-30-2003, 10:27 AM
If they don't re-sign him (and I don't think they will, but who knows) you'll be hearing about the "Damn, why didn't we just keep Jimenez" ...

We traded Dunn for Schoenweis ... hhahaa

We need another righty out' the pen!

Lip Man 1
07-30-2003, 10:38 AM
Worry about 2004 when this season is over, a LOT can happen between now and then particularly since we've got so many free agents and arbitration eligible players.

I do like one thing about this philosophy though, if the Sox make the playoffs this season and then ownership refuses to resign the guys who put them there then Uncle Jerry is going to slashed and burned again.

Basically this philosophy FORCES Reinsdorf to start spending money or pay the price attendence wise and PR wise in 2004.

Lip

joecrede
07-30-2003, 10:38 AM
1B Konerko $8M
2b Graffanino/Hummell/Miles $1.5M/$325K/$325K
SS Valentin $5M
3b Crede 350K
LF Reed $325K
CF Borchard/Rowand $325K/$1M
RF Maggs $14M
C Olivo $350K
DH Thomas $8M

Line up

Reed
Hummell/Graffinino
Thomas
Ordonez
Konerko
Valentin
Crede
Borchard
Olivo

SP Buehrle $7M
SP Garland $4M
SP Loaiza $4M
Sp Schoeneweis $2M

RP Koch $5M
RP Marte $500K
RP Sanders $350K
RP Ginter $350K

My projected payroll for this group is about $65M.

RKMeibalane
07-30-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
Since the trade for Schow is 2004 related let's discuss it:

Alomar & Everett: gone.
I don't see the SOX putting out 5-7mil/yr for 3 yrs for either of them.

Koney: gone.
I don't see the SOX putting out 7-8mil/yr for a 1/2 season player.

Lee: signs for 15/3.
Crede: slight raise.
Harris/Miles: slight raise, 2B.
Maggs: signs for 70/5.
Rowand: slight raise.
Valentin: 1 yr 3MIL
S. Alomar: 1 yr 1MIL
Thomas: 7MIL

Beuhrle: signs 1 yr 4MIL
Garland: signs 1 yr 3MIL
E-LO: 4MIL
Schow: arbits 1 yr 2MIL
Colon: signs 50/5

Marte: 2MIL arbit
Gordon: 3MIL

Koch: gone
White: gone

1B: New guy (Borchy?)

If Konerko is traded, I would imagine that Frank Thomas would become the first baseman full time.

gosox41
07-30-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
I think we can get Robbie for a bargain if he can continue to play with his brother. Bartlo might also sign for slightless less if he has is old Cleveland buddies around.

It all depends on how the Sox do here. If they blow this, with all this talent, then I guarantee they will gut a lot of the team and stockpile draft picks, unless of course attendence picks up.

Bob

Randar68
07-30-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
It all depends on how the Sox do here. If they blow this, with all this talent, then I guarantee they will gut a lot of the team and stockpile draft picks, unless of course attendence picks up.

Bob

Well, they are going to lose a lot of these guys anyways, such as Alomar and Everett, I just hope they are smart about who they offer arbitration to and I hope they end up with about 4-8 1st and 2nd round picks!

gosox41
07-30-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
Since the trade for Schow is 2004 related let's discuss it:

Alomar & Everett: gone.
I don't see the SOX putting out 5-7mil/yr for 3 yrs for either of them.

Koney: gone.
I don't see the SOX putting out 7-8mil/yr for a 1/2 season player.

Lee: signs for 15/3.
Crede: slight raise.
Harris/Miles: slight raise, 2B.
Maggs: signs for 70/5.
Rowand: slight raise.
Valentin: 1 yr 3MIL
S. Alomar: 1 yr 1MIL
Thomas: 7MIL

Beuhrle: signs 1 yr 4MIL
Garland: signs 1 yr 3MIL
E-LO: 4MIL
Schow: arbits 1 yr 2MIL
Colon: signs 50/5

Marte: 2MIL arbit
Gordon: 3MIL

Koch: gone
White: gone

1B: New guy (Borchy?)

Some thing to consider:

1. No one wants Koch. Add $6mill to the 2004 payroll for him.
2. Magglio's salary jumps from $9 mill to $14 mill next season.
3. As much as I hate to say it, Frank may skip town for more money and not put up with JR's BS.
4. If this team can't win in 2003, I want major changes being made.
5. It's going to be almost impossible to trade Konerko. Like Koch, it would be nice, but who wants them? Dumping both frees up $14 mill. in payroll.
6. Colon is probably going to take the money and head to NY.
7. Not sure how it works with arbitration, but if Roberto continues to play well, I'd offer it to him so the Sox get at least 2 picks if he leaves. If he does accept arbitration he can't take more then a 20% pay cut off 2003's big salary.
8. Lee may be traded. He's due big money and hasn't shown the improvement that I hoped. Trading him freed $5-6 mill. in payroll.
9. Buehrle and Garland are arbitration eligible.
10. Hopefully the bear market in baseball salaries continues so the Sox will have the flexibility to re-sign some playerrs and become a player on the FA market.


Bob

joecrede
07-30-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Well, they are going to lose a lot of these guys anyways, such as Alomar and Everett, I just hope they are smart about who they offer arbitration to and I hope they end up with about 4-8 1st and 2nd round picks!

Where's Gordon on the compensation ladder?

gosox41
07-30-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
They can sign him for less if they sign him before offerring arbitration.

That would mean a longer term contract. Why would Alomar stay here for one year at anything less then 20% of this year's salary?

Bob

dickallen15
07-30-2003, 10:58 AM
Stockpiling draft picks would mean the Sox offered these guys arbitration. I don't believe they will offer arbitration to anyone they think would accept it, unless maybe Colon. It is entirely possible and maybe probable the Sox offer arbitration to none of their free agents unless they have already agreed to terms with another team.

Randar68
07-30-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Some thing to consider:

1. No one wants Koch. Add $6mill to the 2004 payroll for him.
2. Magglio's salary jumps from $9 mill to $14 mill next season.
3. As much as I hate to say it, Frank may skip town for more money and not put up with JR's BS.
4. If this team can't win in 2003, I want major changes being made.
5. It's going to be almost impossible to trade Konerko. Like Koch, it would be nice, but who wants them? Dumping both frees up $14 mill. in payroll.
6. Colon is probably going to take the money and head to NY.
7. Not sure how it works with arbitration, but if Roberto continues to play well, I'd offer it to him so the Sox get at least 2 picks if he leaves. If he does accept arbitration he can't take more then a 20% pay cut off 2003's big salary.
8. Lee may be traded. He's due big money and hasn't shown the improvement that I hoped. Trading him freed $5-6 mill. in payroll.
9. Buehrle and Garland are arbitration eligible.
10. Hopefully the bear market in baseball salaries continues so the Sox will have the flexibility to re-sign some players and become a player on the FA market.


Bob

We'd be idiots not to offer arbitration to Colon if we can't sign him by that deadline. That's at least 2 picks.

I would offer arbitration on Alomar, either way, it's a win-win situation. 2-picks or a starting 2B.

I would only offer Everett arbitration if there was a verbal agreement he'd decline it.

I believe Koch is arbitration eligble. Therefore, he isn't going to get a raise based on his performance this season!

Lee may be traded to make room for Reed. I do think we could get some real minor league pitching talent in return, or a serviceable 3rd starter-type, but we'd probably go young there for $$$$ reasons. Still doesn't solve CF issues.

Don't we have an option on Thomas?

If this team doesn't win this year, blow it up big-time. Manual, gone.
Let go via FA (with arbitration if possible): Colon, Alomar, Everett, Alomar Jr, Valentin (his contract is up, IIRC)

Trade:
Loaiza, Lee, Konerko, anyone else other than Olivo, Crede, Maggs, Garland and Buehrle

If it came to that, we'd end up with anywhere from 4-8 extra 1st/2nd draft picks as well as some talent for the upper minor leagues/majors and the foundation would be in place.

Randar68
07-30-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Stockpiling draft picks would mean the Sox offered these guys arbitration. I don't believe they will offer arbitration to anyone they think would accept it, unless maybe Colon. It is entirely possible and maybe probable the Sox offer arbitration to none of their free agents unless they have already agreed to terms with another team.

They will offer it to Colon. If they offer it to Alomar, and he accepts, he would be getting a raise, so it's a no-lose situation. I have serious doubts about offerring Everett.

gosox41
07-30-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
We'd be idiots not to offer arbitration to Colon if we can't sign him by that deadline. That's at least 2 picks.

I would offer arbitration on Alomar, either way, it's a win-win situation. 2-picks or a starting 2B.

I would only offer Everett arbitration if there was a verbal agreement he'd decline it.

I believe Koch is arbitration eligble. Therefore, he isn't going to get a raise based on his performance this season!

Lee may be traded to make room for Reed. I do think we could get some real minor league pitching talent in return, or a serviceable 3rd starter-type, but we'd probably go young there for $$$$ reasons. Still doesn't solve CF issues.

Don't we have an option on Thomas?

If this team doesn't win this year, blow it up big-time. Manual, gone.
Let go via FA (with arbitration if possible): Colon, Alomar, Everett, Alomar Jr

Trade:
Loaiza, Lee, Konerko, anyone else other than Olivo, Crede, Maggs, Garland and Buehrle

If it came to that, we'd end up with anywhere from 4-8 extra 1st/2nd draft picks as well as some talent for the upper minor leagues/majors and the foundation would be in place.

In regards to Koch, KW signed him to a 2 year contract shortly after he was traded here.

I don't know all the details on the Thomas contract, but I think there is an out for him if he wants to test the market. Anyone know any more info. I know he's got the first option to excercise the salary and JR could then exercise his option to pay him even more money. But I think if Thomas isn't happy about it, he can try to skip town.

Bob

Randar68
07-30-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
In regards to Koch, KW signed him to a 2 year contract shortly after he was traded here.

I don't know all the details on the Thomas contract, but I think there is an out for him if he wants to test the market. Anyone know any more info. I know he's got the first option to excercise the salary and JR could then exercise his option to pay him even more money. But I think if Thomas isn't happy about it, he can try to skip town.

Bob

Forgot about the Koch thing. I doubt Thomas would leave if he can take an 8-10 million dollar option to stay. Seems to be enjoying himself a LOT more this season.

Gumshoe
07-30-2003, 11:18 AM
You would think that if we don't win this year, as I have said, JR has to take MAJOR look in the mirror and I think the one change that will be made that is the best of all is his selling the Chicago White Sox. Is he going to rot in that dark room of his covered in Brooklyn crap waiting for another chance while we "rebuild" and fans are PISSED?

Everyone knows that if they don't make the playoffs, there'll be hell to pay. With all the moves and what's going to happen, they are in for it either way. I think we have to win the first series in the playoffs or it's a failure.

ps- on a side note, and I always shock people when I say this, but now, when Frank has value, he should be traded. he's the microcosm of lack of versatility that we have and Konerko can play 1B better (can actually throw too) and Thomas would fetch a good trade. I know they won't do it, but getting rid of Thomas wouldn't bother me in the least. Yes, I'd love for him to be a White Sox player all his career, but he's messed us up too many times in the passed 2 years to care. With that, I hope we DO make it to the ALCS, so no worries! Although a winning franchise will not occur until JERRY is gone. both of them.

JUGGERNAUT
07-30-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Some thing to consider:

1. No one wants Koch. Add $6mill to the 2004 payroll for him.
2. Magglio's salary jumps from $9 mill to $14 mill next season.
3. As much as I hate to say it, Frank may skip town for more money and not put up with JR's BS.
4. If this team can't win in 2003, I want major changes being made.
5. It's going to be almost impossible to trade Konerko. Like Koch, it would be nice, but who wants them? Dumping both frees up $14 mill. in payroll.
6. Colon is probably going to take the money and head to NY.
7. Not sure how it works with arbitration, but if Roberto continues to play well, I'd offer it to him so the Sox get at least 2 picks if he leaves. If he does accept arbitration he can't take more then a 20% pay cut off 2003's big salary.
8. Lee may be traded. He's due big money and hasn't shown the improvement that I hoped. Trading him freed $5-6 mill. in payroll.
9. Buehrle and Garland are arbitration eligible.
10. Hopefully the bear market in baseball salaries continues so the Sox will have the flexibility to re-sign some playerrs and become a player on the FA market.


Bob

I disagree. If Krotch can show a little more velocity, I think it's a case where 1 yr does not a bad pitcher make. I think KW will be able to find some takers, though it might cost the SOX a mil to trade him.

The same can be said for Koney. Especially if LAD does get a new owner, I could see Koney going there.

Randar68
07-30-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I know they won't do it, but getting rid of Thomas wouldn't bother me in the least. Yes, I'd love for him to be a White Sox player all his career, but he's messed us up too many times in the passed 2 years to care.

Messed us up? How, by being injured? Jeeez. Thomas is not hitting up to snuff and he is what, in the top 3 or 4 in the league in OPS STILL!?!?!?! His OBP is better than anyone on the team, and it isn't even close.

Konerko will never be the offensive player Thomas is, even at this stage of Thomas' career. The only thing Konerko does better than Thomas at 1B is throw, which is a minor requirement.

First Rowand, now this? Keep digging that hole, this is ludicrous.

RKMeibalane
07-30-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Messed us up? How, by being injured? Jeeez. Thomas is not hitting up to snuff and he is what, in the top 3 or 4 in the league in OPS STILL!?!?!?! His OBP is better than anyone on the team, and it isn't even close.

Konerko will never be the offensive player Thomas is, even at this stage of Thomas' career. The only thing Konerko does better than Thomas at 1B is throw, which is a minor requirement.

First Rowand, now this? Keep digging that hole, this is ludicrous.

Agreed. If the Sox have to choose between Konerko and Thomas, they should choose Thomas. Yes, his throwing sucks, but how many times does a first baseman throw the ball anyway? He has played twenty seven games at first this season, and made but one error. If you calculate the number of errors he would make playing a full season at first base, he would make six errors. That's about how many errors Don Mattingly made every year, and he won nine Gold Gloves. Frank won't win a Gold Glove anytime soon, but he's not as bad a first baseman as people think.

Paulwny
07-30-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


First Rowand, now this? Keep digging that hole, this is ludicrous.

I picture you banging your head against a wall.

hempsox
07-30-2003, 11:50 AM
Isn't this the kind of post that normally appears on a Pittsburgh Pirates or Detroit Tigers board about this time of the year? I know that in years past I have started looking for prospect reports/FA warnings and started looking forward to the next season. Somehow the Sox place in the current standings and the fact that they are looking pretty good except when certain bullpen "ACES" are taking the hill makes me think that looking at the present Sox is the way to go. Talk to me in November about the 04 Sox.

:threadsucks

gosox41
07-30-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
I disagree. If Krotch can show a little more velocity, I think it's a case where 1 yr does not a bad pitcher make. I think KW will be able to find some takers, though it might cost the SOX a mil to trade him.

The same can be said for Koney. Especially if LAD does get a new owner, I could see Koney going there.

I hope the Sox get rid of both of them.

Bob

Clarkdog
07-30-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by hempsox
Isn't this the kind of post that normally appears on a Pittsburgh Pirates or Detroit Tigers board about this time of the year? I know that in years past I have started looking for prospect reports/FA warnings and started looking forward to the next season. Somehow the Sox place in the current standings and the fact that they are looking pretty good except when certain bullpen "ACES" are taking the hill makes me think that looking at the present Sox is the way to go. Talk to me in November about the 04 Sox.

:threadsucks

Amen brother.

We are winning today. Think about tomorrow when we have lost.

Gumshoe
07-30-2003, 02:06 PM
Randar, you don't think Rowand should be the CF? Fine. I think you don't know the White Sox if you believe that. Obviously, that is my opinion.

You don't think Thomas has caused multiple problems in teh clubhouse and with bad sentiment over the last few years? Clearly Thomas will always walk more, and he has good stats, but he is no longer the player he used to be, he's still a bitch, and he is not versatile at all. Maybe Konerko isn't the answer, who knows, but Thomas is very expendable. (Remember walkout 2001?, whining in the clubhouse about not wanting to play first, not wanting to do shuttle runs, etc.). I see Thomas as one of the greatest hitters of all time. But will we WIN with him over the long run. I THINK, no. You may disagree. What I'm saying is that if we can get something substantial for Thomas, I'd do it in a second .

Gumshoe

Randar68
07-30-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Randar, you don't think Rowand should be the CF? Fine. I think you don't know the White Sox if you believe that. Obviously, that is my opinion.

Gumshoe

*****! Here you go Pal: