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rmusacch
07-29-2003, 07:06 PM
Bruce Levine is reporting that the Sox have acquired Scott Schoenweis for Gary Glover and another player.

MisterB
07-29-2003, 07:06 PM
According to Dave Wills: Sox have acquired Scott Schoeneweis for Gary Glover plus minor leaguers. Not 100% confirmed.

LuvSox
07-29-2003, 07:08 PM
Who has the numbers on him?

MisterB
07-29-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by LuvSox
Who has the numbers on him?

Scott Schoeneweis (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6171)

adsit
07-29-2003, 07:12 PM
G GS CG IP H R ER HR BB SO W L Sv P/GS WHIP BAA ERA
39 0 0 38.2 37 19 17 2 10 29 1 1 0 0.0 1.22 .250 3.96

I'm not unhappy with this at all.

Dave

thepaulbowski
07-29-2003, 07:13 PM
Next step, dump Rick White!

:sopranos

rmusacch
07-29-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by adsit
G GS CG IP H R ER HR BB SO W L Sv P/GS WHIP BAA ERA
39 0 0 38.2 37 19 17 2 10 29 1 1 0 0.0 1.22 .250 3.96

I'm not unhappy with this at all.

Dave

Is he supposed to step in as the fifth starter? He had been rumored to be going to the Tigers or D-rays and would have been a starter there.

Saracen
07-29-2003, 07:19 PM
Nice pickup, but why do we need another lefty in the bullpen?

Chisoxfn
07-29-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Saracen
Nice pickup, but why do we need another lefty in the bullpen?

In 2001 he threw over 200 innings so they may be moving him there. Either way he can throw innings and can also act as a swingman.

Its a good move as long as the Sox aren't giving up anything good in the minors.

Daver
07-29-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Is he supposed to step in as the fifth starter? He had been rumored to be going to the Tigers or D-rays and would have been a starter there.

Considering the fact that he has not pitched more than an inning or two at a time,he would be hard pressed to be dumped into the rotation this late in the season.

adsit
07-29-2003, 07:27 PM
Has a great arm, throws a wicked sinking fastball, but Angels demoted him to bullpen this season, in part b/c he hasn't had much luck adding to that repertoire. He's been wanting to be traded for a while. He'll be a good situational starter for us; a little past his prime but still brings it. I also like the one intangible about him; he played on a world championship team last year.

Dave

Chisoxfn
07-29-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by adsit
Has a great arm, throws a wicked sinking fastball, but Angels demoted him to bullpen this season, in part b/c he hasn't had much luck adding to that repertoire. He's been wanting to be traded for a while. He'll be a good situational starter for us; a little past his prime but still brings it. I also like the one intangible about him; he played on a world championship team last year.

Dave

I was at the Angel game on Saturday and he looked good against the A's. His fastball was hitting 94 (Its a lot higher as a reliever). He's wanted to go back to the rotation for a long time. Really helps the pen...don't know if it helps the rotation.

As long as Sox don't give up a prospect (Meaning something decent...I'm gonna go out and guess it will be Ross Gload) then this is a good move.

Daver
07-29-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn


As long as Sox don't give up a prospect (Meaning something decent...I'm gonna go out and guess it will be Ross Gload) then this is a good move.

Why would the Angels trade for a minor league player they could have gotten in FA,and that will probably be around in FA after this season?

MarqSox
07-29-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by daver
Why would the Angels trade for a minor league player they could have gotten in FA,and that will probably be around in FA after this season?

Maybe they just wanted Glover

Chisoxfn
07-29-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by daver
Why would the Angels trade for a minor league player they could have gotten in FA,and that will probably be around in FA after this season?

I just know they have a need for a first baseman/dh (With Glaus/Fullmer out). I also can't see a good prospect being given up in this deal. Well I can see it happening cause you never know.

This could also of been a salary dump (But I didn't think Scho made much anything, but I couldn't find any contract info on him). I know the Angels are supposedly willing to add payroll and have been looking to add a big bat.

MarqSox
07-29-2003, 07:38 PM
Hawk reported the Sox gave up 2 minor leaguers and also acquired one, though I don't remember the names.

Daver
07-29-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Hawk reported the Sox gave up 2 minor leaguers and also acquired one, though I don't remember the names.

The minor leaguer the Sox got was pitcher Doug Nickles,the two minor leaguers the Sox gave up were identified only as pitchers.

FJA
07-29-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Hawk reported the Sox gave up 2 minor leaguers and also acquired one, though I don't remember the names.

Two minor league pitchers, which worries me somewhat.

WinningUgly!
07-29-2003, 07:40 PM
He looks good in White Sox colors. :)

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/WSIbanners/playerimages/Schoeneweis.GIF

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 07:41 PM
Hawk said in was Shoenwiess and someone (maybe?) for Glover and TWO minor leaguers. I would prefer Glover over White myself. Gary has proven to be very reliable out of the pen in multiple roles if he's given regular work. White has been better, but still inconsistent. Who's paying his $$?

Daver
07-29-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn


This could also of been a salary dump (But I didn't think Scho made much anything, but I couldn't find any contract info on him). I know the Angels are supposedly willing to add payroll and have been looking to add a big bat.

Schonweiss is a FA at the end of the season,he is making 1.4 million this year.

MisterB
07-29-2003, 07:44 PM
The official body count:

we get:
Scott Schoeneweis
Doug Nickle

for:
Gary Glover
Scott Dunn
Tim Bittner

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 07:44 PM
Unless Shoenweiss is going to start, trading Glover gives away one 5th starter option and doesn't bring in one. I heard something about Wright starting against SEA, but I would rather have Suppan.

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
The official body count:

we get:
Scott Schoeneweis
Doug Nickle

for:
Gary Glover
Scott Dunn
Tim Bittner

We got Dunn for Jimenez. The ESPN article made him sound like a decent pitcher. I've never heard of Bittner, what's his story?

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 07:46 PM
I just hope this isn't our 5th starter. I don't think he will be, but knowing Sox management, you never know. I'm not so sure this trade is much of anything. All it really does in my opinion is move White to take over the crapper role (ie. long reliever) now that Glover is gone. Schoeneweis's stats don't look like much of anything, but since I don't know much about him, I'll give him a chance. Hawk did say 2 minor leaguers, but I don't imagine they would be prospects for a guy with an ERA scraping 4 this year, and a lifetime ERA over 5.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by daver
Schonweiss is a FA at the end of the season,he is making 1.4 million this year.

1.4 million!? I think that's way too steep for a bullpen pitcher with an ERA near 4. I really hope this doesn't mean we can't afford to go and acquire a quality 5th starter now.

MarkEdward
07-29-2003, 07:51 PM
Bleh. Look at his splits the last few years:

vs. righties: .820 OPS
vs. lefties: .625 OPS

He's looked pretty good as a starter though. We still need another righty out of the pen, though.

Doug Nickle is having a good year in AAA, but his K rate is awful and he's 27.

Gary Glover was always a favorite of mine, and I'm sad to see him go. I hope the minor leaguers we give up are of little value.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 07:51 PM
Stats of the minor leaguer we acquired:

Nickle, Doug
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pacific Coast League Salt Lake Stingers 04/04 to 07/27

W L SV ERA G IP H R ER BB KO HR
2 2 4 1.48 34 48.2 40 8 8 18 23 1

That's AAA btw. I like the ERA a ton, but the low K's are a bit of a worry. Looks like this kid may be good. Anyone got a scouting report on him?

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
1.4 million!? I think that's way too steep for a bullpen pitcher with an ERA near 4. I really hope this doesn't mean we can't afford to go and acquire a quality 5th starter now.

Agreed. If we don't get a 5th starter also or if this is it, then my socks are not blown off. It seems like a salary dump for the Angels and a trade for the sake of making one by us.

joecrede
07-29-2003, 07:55 PM
In a perfect world, I'd start Schoenweiss and go after Williamson for the pen.

Daver
07-29-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
We got Dunn for Jimenez. The ESPN article made him sound like a decent pitcher. I've never heard of Bittner, what's his story?

Dunn is 26,hardly a prospect anymore.


Bittner was a tenth round pick in 2001,LH starter with good K numbers that has not been able to get out of A ball.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by daver
Dunn is 26,hardly a prospect anymore.


Bittner was a tenth round pick in 2001,LH starter with good K numbers that has not been able to get out of A ball.

And Nickle is 28, so the minor leaguers look to be a wash.

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 08:05 PM
Doug Nickle: (34 games @ AAA)
2-2 1.48 ERA 4 SV 48.2 IP 40H 8ER 18 BB 23K

Tim Bittner: (A Kannapolis)
4-4 3.40 ERA 10GS 50.1 IP 45H 26BB 45K

Scott Dunn: (39 games @ AA Birmingham+Cincy AA)
6-3 3.35 ERA 9SV 51.0 IP 39H 21 BB 68K

Nickle and Dunn look like a wash. Bittner has good stats at A, but should have progressed more since 2001 right? I'd think that Glover/Dunn for Shoenweis/Nickle would be an even trade. Did we throw in Bittner so they pay his salary?

jabrch
07-29-2003, 08:24 PM
wants to be a starter...He has asked the Angels for a while to move him into the rotation. I bet that's the plan here... Either way, nothing wrong with adding a good lefty into the pen. It wouldn't surprise me to see White sent somewhere else.

Tragg
07-29-2003, 08:30 PM
So this looks like a good deal for us, albeit a minor one.

duke of dorwood
07-29-2003, 08:33 PM
I'd like to have this team we have now in tact for a full season.

Without
:jerry

FJA
07-29-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
So this looks like a good deal for us, albeit a minor one.

Schoenweis is a solid pick-up, but I think we still need one more pitcher ... I have a feeling KW isn't done yet.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I'd like to have this team we have now in tact for a full season.

Without
:jerry

I don't want Schoenweis starting, so we better go out and acquire a real #5 starting pitcher. After that, I'll be content. I'd be nice to get one more bullpen pitcher (since I'm not convinced with Schoenweis), preferably a right hander, but I won't get greedy.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 08:37 PM
Wow. We trade for another guy who is a free agent at the end of the season.

It really is do or die for the Sox in 2003.

Daver
07-29-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Wow. We trade for another guy who is a free agent at the end of the season.

It really is do or die for the Sox in 2003.

It is becoming quite obvious that the Ron Schueler "sit on your hands and do nothing" days are over.I would be willing to speculate that the Sox aren't done yet.

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Wow. We trade for another guy who is a free agent at the end of the season.

It really is do or die for the Sox in 2003.

Yeah if we fade out or bomb in the playoffs then 2004 is looking pretty dismal.

FJA
07-29-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Wow. We trade for another guy who is a free agent at the end of the season.

It really is do or die for the Sox in 2003.

Here's the ESPN release ... Schoenweis will be used in the bullpen according to KW.

The part that I find really interesting is that KW says he'll be given a chance to start in spring training. Does anyone have definitive contract terms, or are we planning to sign him to a longer deal???

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/story?id=1587110)

Mammoo
07-29-2003, 08:43 PM
"Right now, our primary need for him is in the bullpen,'' White Sox general manager Ken Williams said. "He's not stretched out enough to go into the rotation. He has three quality pitches. We can visualize him in our rotation next year.''

All of which means he's still looking for a fifth starter! :smile:

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 08:48 PM
Shoenwies has started before and I wouldn't mind giving him a shot starting next year. Signing him thru 2004 isn't a bad idea. He's only 29. So our bullpen is:

Marte
Wunsch
Shoenweiss
White
Koch
Gordon

Gordon is the only reliable righty we have IMO, but we're set from the left side. Marte can get everyone out and Shoenwiess should be able to do well. He was on the WS series team in 2003. Lets make it two in a row!

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 08:51 PM
Great news that he will remain in the pen! I really hope this means KW is going to go get us a fifth starter (come on Suppan!). Knowing KW, I have a feeling that this is exactly what will happen. I also hope that this means the end of Rick White. I think that we keep Ginter and White is the odd man out here. I would look for Ginter or White (hopefully the latter) to go in a trade soon. So here is what our bullpen currently looks like (keeping in mind that one of these guys will be gone when we acquire our fifth starter):

Closer - Gordon (R)
Setup - Marte (L)
Specialist - Wunsch (L)
R Middle - Ginter (R)
L Middle - Schoenweis (L)
Crapper (Long Relief) - White (R)
Needs to be shot - Koch (R)

Hopefully Koch can regain something of what he once had and at least pitch middle relief for us. If he does, I would be very comfortable with our bullpen. However, as I don't see that happening, I think it would behoove us to acquire one more quality right handed arm out of the bullpen. I think that we'll be alright without another one, but that would really improve our chances in the post season, especially with an untested (this year) Ginter. So what we need KW to do is go get us a fifth starter and a quality right handed arm out of the pen.

joecrede
07-29-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Wow. We trade for another guy who is a free agent at the end of the season.

It really is do or die for the Sox in 2003.

Per ESPN.com he's got 5 years experience, so that would mean he's arbitration eligible. If that's true it's a nice move for next year as well.

Possible '04 rotation
Buehrle ~$7M
Garland ~$4M
Loazia ~$4M
Schoenweiss ~$3M

A decent, relatively cost efficient, rotation.

pudge
07-29-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo


Closer - Gordon (R)
Setup - Marte (L)
Specialist - Wunsch (L)
R Middle - Ginter (R)
L Middle - Schoenweis (L)
Crapper (Long Relief) - White (R)
Needs to be shot - Koch (R)



LOL! That made my night, hilarious stuff.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
A decent, relatively cost efficient, rotation.

:reinsy
"I luv it when you analyze."

:hawk
"MERCY!"

pudge
07-29-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Yeah if we fade out or bomb in the playoffs then 2004 is looking pretty dismal.

I don't really agree with this, it's not like our division is any good right now. Loaiza has an option year, Buehrle is back, Garland continues to improve. Yeah 2B and CF are big holes, but you never know what will happen - maybe Harris or Borchard break through. I don't think we're in terrible shape. Am I wrong?

Daver
07-29-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Per ESPN.com he's got 5 years experience, so that would mean he's arbitration eligible. If that's true it's a nice move for next year as well.



Good observation,he will not be due for a huge raise in arbitration either,he would probably be more apt to sign before arbitration and avoid the process.

adsit
07-29-2003, 09:03 PM
a 28-year old righty who seems to be a career "PTBN"; the Angels originally signed him in the 13th rd of the '97 draft. He spent a few years in the Phillies organization, and had a few September callups with them. Came back to Anaheim via San Diego. Grand total of 89 days major league service.

Dave

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I don't really agree with this, it's not like our division is any good right now. Loaiza has an option year, Buehrle is back, Garland continues to improve. Yeah 2B and CF are big holes, but you never know what will happen - maybe Harris or Borchard break through. I don't think we're in terrible shape. Am I wrong?

Hey, I say go for it! Until we win a championship, next year can wait.

The way I see it, the A.L. Central crown (and a ticket into the playoffs) is there for the taking. Think back to the late-90's when the Indians were winning 100 games. It would have been stupid to do what the Sox are doing now because beating Cleveland probably wasn't in the cards. You can't say that about the '03 Twins or Royals.

:hizzoner
"I've been dead for 27 years and I still want a Sox championship, too!!!"

spanishwhite
07-29-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Per ESPN.com he's got 5 years experience, so that would mean he's arbitration eligible. If that's true it's a nice move for next year as well.

Possible '04 rotation
Buehrle ~$7M
Garland ~$4M
Loazia ~$4M
Schoenweiss ~$3M

A decent, relatively cost efficient, rotation.

pretty generous with those salaries.

FYI when the league gets involved arbitration rarely falls on the players side and if vazquez couldn't get 7 million then Buehrle will not get 7 and Garland will not get 4.

With Loaiza set for 3.5 and Schoenweis set to sign rather than go through arbitration, there is more money available.

Tragg
07-29-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Wow. We trade for another guy who is a free agent at the end of the season.

It really is do or die for the Sox in 2003.

We didn't give up anything for this guy and if we want to sign him i'm sure we could afford him.

Saracen
07-29-2003, 09:29 PM
"Right now, our primary need for him is in the bullpen,'' White Sox general manager Ken Williams said. "He's not stretched out enough to go into the rotation.''
Williams said Schoeneweis will be given a chance in spring training to win a spot in the starting rotation.
"He has three quality pitches," Williams said. "We can visualize him in our rotation next year.''

Tragg
07-29-2003, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Yeah if we fade out or bomb in the playoffs then 2004 is looking pretty dismal.

What have we given up of substance or what we would expect to be a major contribuor in 2004?

Royce Ring? Gary Glover? come on.

I am not on the mortgage the future bandwagon - but as of now, he hasn't done that.

chosk8
07-29-2003, 09:39 PM
A little more on Nickle...

Nickle, a 27-year-old righthander, drafted in the 13th round in 1997 out of the University of California by the Angels, he was the player to be named later in the 1998 trade that sent Gregg Jefferies from Philadelphia to Anaheim. Nickle's main pitches are a low-90s fastball and a knuckle-curve, and he also has been refining a slider. His control and mechanics aren't always the smoothest, but he's considered to have a closer's demeanor.

doublem23
07-29-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Yeah if we fade out or bomb in the playoffs then 2004 is looking pretty dismal.

Again, I really fail to see how these deals have changed the outlook on 2004 from one of promise to one of dismay. :?:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Again, I really fail to see how the deals have affected the 2004 season. Anyone want to help out? :?:

I'm not worried about the B and C grade minor league talent we've given up in trade. I'm more concerned about the Sox falling short of the playoffs and then refusing to re-sign all the ballplayers Williams has picked up the last 8 months.

:reinsy
"What ever gave you that idea?"

doublem23
07-29-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm not worried about the B and C grade minor league talent we've given up in trade. I'm more concerned about the Sox falling short of the playoffs and then refusing to re-sign all the ballplayers Williams has picked up the last 8 months.

:reinsy
"What ever gave you that idea?"

True, but what really would have been there in their place? Jimenez would still be at second, Rowand and Harris would still be in center...

I don't understand why people are fretting about the future when these deals are specifically aimed at getting the job done now. Go Sox!

gosox41
07-29-2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
1.4 million!? I think that's way too steep for a bullpen pitcher with an ERA near 4. I really hope this doesn't mean we can't afford to go and acquire a quality 5th starter now.

How do you feel about paying a closer with a 5.60 ERA $10 mill. over the next 2 years? :D:

Bob

gosox41
07-29-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Yeah if we fade out or bomb in the playoffs then 2004 is looking pretty dismal.

At least they'll get a lot of early draft picks if the Sox decide to let these guys go.

Bob

JUGGERNAUT
07-29-2003, 10:19 PM
Schoeneweis made 47 starts the previous two years, but has been primarily used in relief this season by Anaheim.

"Right now, our primary need for him is in the bullpen," White Sox general manager Ken Williams said. "He's not stretched out enough to go into the rotation."

Schoeneweis, 29, is 1-1 with a 3.96 ERA in 39 relief appearances this season. He has a 28-31 career record with a 5.10 ERA in 183 games, including 74 starts. Full story

Lip Man 1
07-29-2003, 10:32 PM
Tremendous move by the Sox. They give up two "no names" who'll never amount to anything and Gary Glover who was a stiff.

Glover was awful as a starter. I'm surprised you don't remember the media asking Manager Gandhi last year WHY he was still in the rotation getting his head beat in practically every start. Gandhi's reply was "we don't have any other options right now..."

Glover had one good season in long relief for the Sox and that's it. He obviously was in somebody's dog house because he was barely used.

I still think the Sox are going to try to get another starter, pray that it's Suppan.

Also just FYI Peter Gammons story today on the Reds firing Boone and Bowden (ESPN.com) had the quote that Carl Linder CEO and chief idiot of the franchise ordered the team to get rid of Gabe White, Scott Sullivan and Scott Williamson by Thursday night.

The plums are ripe for the picking boys, just do it!

Lip

voodoochile
07-29-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Tremendous move by the Sox. They give up two "no names" who'll never amount to anything and Gary Glover who was a stiff.

Glover was awful as a starter. I'm surprised you don't remember the media asking Manager Gandhi last year WHY he was still in the rotation getting his head beat in practically every start. Gandhi's reply was "we don't have any other options right now..."

Glover had one good season in long relief for the Sox and that's it. He obviously was in somebody's dog house because he was barely used.

I still think the Sox are going to try to get another starter, pray that it's Suppan.

Also just FYI Peter Gammons story today on the Reds firing Boone and Bowden (ESPN.com) had the quote that Carl Linder CEO and chief idiot of the franchise ordered the team to get rid of Gabe White, Scott Sullivan and Scott Williamson by Thursday night.

The plums are ripe for the picking boys, just do it!

Lip

I must admit, I don't follow the Reds, so I have no idea who those guys are (I suppose I could look it up), but I must say, that if Lip is happy, so am I...

:D:

jeremyb1
07-29-2003, 10:45 PM
i guess i just like glover a lot more than everyone else does. the problem i see is that glover is younger, cheaper, and could put up numbers as good or better than shoenweis if he were used with greater regularity in my opinion. most importantly, this is our third lefty in the pen two of which excel mostly against lefties.

i guess one could argue that even if glover is that good, he didn't have the opportunity he needed to succeed with our club and that since marte is our setup man he doesn't count as a lefthanded specialist type, but i still don't see this deal as much more than a wash. i certainly don't see it as the slam dunk some people seem to. i mean a 4.20 era for a reliever isn't exactly dynamite. it'd be helpful on our team since our pen lacks so much depth but if used correctly shoenweis should primarly be used for lefites, an area we already have covered with wunsch back from the dl.

JJAustin69
07-29-2003, 10:46 PM
Yanks trade Mondesi to Diamondbacks for two no-names.

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 10:47 PM
If our FA don't resign then we're going to have some holes to fill.

Loaiza
Buehrle
Garland
Shoenweiss
?

Marte
Wunsch
Koch
Ginter?

C Olivo
DH Thomas
1B Konerko
2B ?
SS ?
3B Crede
LF Lee
CF ?
RF Maggs
UT Graffanino

Then who? Harris? Rowand? Borchard? Miles?

Actually now that I look at this post things could be worse. If one or two out our "top" prospects or fringe players could pan out as a starter then we'll be ok. The rotation looks good tho. I'd like to keep Robbie Alomar and maybe even Flash. Jose, Alomar Jr. Everett, can all walk and I'll take the draft picks.

gosox41
07-29-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i guess i just like glover a lot more than everyone else does. the problem i see is that glover is younger, cheaper, and could put up numbers as good or better than shoenweis if he were used with greater regularity in my opinion. most importantly, this is our third lefty in the pen two of which excel mostly against lefties.

i guess one could argue that even if glover is that good, he didn't have the opportunity he needed to succeed with our club and that since marte is our setup man he doesn't count as a lefthanded specialist type, but i still don't see this deal as much more than a wash. i certainly don't see it as the slam dunk some people seem to. i mean a 4.20 era for a reliever isn't exactly dynamite. it'd be helpful on our team since our pen lacks so much depth but if used correctly shoenweis should primarly be used for lefites, an area we already have covered with wunsch back from the dl.

I also liked Glover. For some reason JM was afraid to use him consistently as a reliever, but his numbers indicate he is a very effective reliever and lousy starter.

I wish the Sox could have kept Glover when the got Schonweis. It would have made the bullpen that much deeper.

Having all these lefties conerns me. With White and Koch struggling and Glover gone, do we have anyone besides Marte and Gordon who can get righties out? Is Schoenweis the answer? I know he holds lefties to a low BA, but how does he fare against righties?

Bob

voodoochile
07-29-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I also liked Glover. For some reason JM was afraid to use him consistently as a reliever, but his numbers indicate he is a very effective reliever and lousy starter.

I wish the Sox could have kept Glover when the got Schonweis. It would have made the bullpen that much deeper.

Having all these lefties conerns me. With White and Koch struggling and Glover gone, do we have anyone besides Marte and Gordon who can get righties out? Is Schoenweis the answer? I know he holds lefties to a low BA, but how does he fare against righties?

Bob

Don't discount Schoenweiss' playoff experience in this trade. Glover cannot replace that when it comes time to put up or shut up.

Daver
07-29-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Jose, Alomar Jr. Everett, can all walk and I'll take the draft picks.

You won't get a draft pick for Jose,he has an option for next year.Sandy is likely to retire,so they won't get a draft pick out of that either,they will probably get a second round sandwich pick for Everett though.

gosox41
07-29-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE


Actually now that I look at this post things could be worse. If one or two out our "top" prospects or fringe players could pan out as a starter then we'll be ok. The rotation looks good tho. I'd like to keep Robbie Alomar and maybe even Flash. Jose, Alomar Jr. Everett, can all walk and I'll take the draft picks.

The Sox only get draft picks if they offer the player arbitration. Some teams may not want to give up a pick for Sandy Alomar Jr. Also keep in mind that if Everett continues to struggle, some teams may not want to give up 2 picks to sign him. If the Sox misjudge the market for Everett and offer arbitration and Everett accepts it then the Sox are going to have to pay him $7.2 mill minimum for 2004.

Bob

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 10:55 PM
I was a big fan of Glover's as well and I hope he gets a chance to pitch in Anaheim. I thought he improved as a starter last year, but he was still bad. He's a good reliever tho and the lack of good righties in the BP worries me.

Randar68
07-29-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The Sox only get draft picks if they offer the player arbitration. Some teams may not want to give up a pick for Sandy Alomar Jr. Also keep in mind that if Everett continues to struggle, some teams may not want to give up 2 picks to sign him. If the Sox misjudge the market for Everett and offer arbitration and Everett accepts it then the Sox are going to have to pay him $7.2 mill minimum for 2004.

Bob

If they don't like what the results of arbitration are, they don't have to offer a contract for such. However, failing to pony up results in losing that draft pick compensation. IIRC

Brian26
07-29-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by daver
It is becoming quite obvious that the Ron Schueler "sit on your hands and do nothing" days are over.I would be willing to speculate that the Sox aren't done yet.

I like it. 2003 White Sox baseball: Do or Die!

Lip Man 1
07-29-2003, 11:00 PM
How soon everybody forgets the best Sox bullpen in the last 25 years.

1990

Lefthanders

1 Ken Patterson
2 Wayne Edwards
3 Scott Radinsky "Rad Man"

Righthanders

1 Donn Pall
2 Barry Jones
3 Bobby Thigpen

3 and 3. Jeff Torborg seemed to do alright with that (although Torborg is ten times the manager that Gandhi is.)

Lip

Joel Perez
07-29-2003, 11:02 PM
Nice pickup by the Pale Hose. Only giving up Glover, an inconsistent pitcher at best, and two marginal prospects for a lefty in the pen. Nice indeed. Now, if we can only get rid of White and Koch, this will make my year!!!

jeremyb1
07-29-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Having all these lefties conerns me. With White and Koch struggling and Glover gone, do we have anyone besides Marte and Gordon who can get righties out? Is Schoenweis the answer? I know he holds lefties to a low BA, but how does he fare against righties?

schoenweis' lefty righty ops splits were posted somewhere in this thread. he doesn't fare well against right handed hitters. outside of gordon and marte, ginter probably the only guy left in the pen with a good shot of retiring right handed hitters but i'm worried manuel won't use him.

kermittheefrog
07-29-2003, 11:22 PM
This is a huge non-move. Schoeneweis is the worst releiver in the Angels pen. Couldn't we have gotten any of the other guys? Donnelly? Weber? Shields? Come on. I would like to see Nickle given a shot on the team instead of White but I don't see that happening. The Sox aren't that inventive but a guy who can tear up a hitters league like the PCL deserves a shot.

Meanwhile the Red Sox get Scott Williamson for a name in rookie ball. This is the guy we needed. Or basically anyone else in the Angels pen. What is Kenny thinking?

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
How do you feel about paying a closer with a 5.60 ERA $10 mill. over the next 2 years? :D:

Bob

!! I was against that stupid trade since day 1. Koch has always sucks and will always suck. The guy is a classic example of a thrower, not a pitcher.

Lip Man 1
07-29-2003, 11:31 PM
Andrew:

The night is young. Still two days before the deadline and maybe the Sox aren't done.

Lip

kermittheefrog
07-29-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Andrew:

The night is young. Still two days before the deadline and maybe the Sox aren't done.

Lip

I just don't understand talking to the Angels about bullpen help and with all the fantastic pitchers in their pen he gets the one guy that is of no use to them or us. It's mind boggling.

Dadawg_77
07-29-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I just don't understand talking to the Angels about bullpen help and with all the fantastic pitchers in their pen he gets the one guy that is of no use to them or us. It's mind boggling.

He made the move because he and/or Jerry M had no confidence in Glover, thus you couldn't use him. Kenny felt he had to make a move, and thus when he called the Angles probably asked about everyone else but Angles didn't want to let them go, so he got who he got and made his move.

kermittheefrog
07-29-2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
He made the move because he and/or Jerry M had no confidence in Glover, thus you couldn't use him. Kenny felt he had to make a move, and thus when he called the Angles probably asked about everyone else but Angles didn't want to let them go, so he got who he got and made his move.

Screw Manuel, he's middle management. No one cares what he thinks.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I just don't understand talking to the Angels about bullpen help and with all the fantastic pitchers in their pen he gets the one guy that is of no use to them or us. It's mind boggling.

It would have cost us a ton more to get one of their better guys.

kermittheefrog
07-29-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
It would have cost us a ton more to get one of their better guys.

You mean a guy like the rookie ball pitcher the Red Sox sent to the Reds for Williamson? It's a buyers market. We could have gotten a decent pitcher from someone somewhere. I guess we still might. But why do we have Scott Schoeneweis?

Dadawg_77
07-29-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
It would have cost us a ton more to get one of their better guys.

Maybe but if Sox are going for it all K-Rod or Donnley would have been nice.

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 11:51 PM
Like I said before, it seems like a trade for the sake of making one.

JJAustin69
07-29-2003, 11:51 PM
Boone wants out of Cincy but they want pitching in return. The Dodgers seem to have the inside track on t hat.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 11:52 PM
Wow, I just checked the splits on Schoeneweis.

vs. Righties
1-1 7.88 ERA 1.75 WHIP

vs. Lefties
1-1 1.19ERA 0.84 WHIP

Looks like another left handed specialist. I'm not so sure this is what we needed. 2 left handed specialists? I just hope Manuel will see this and know how to properly use the guy.

Dadawg_77
07-29-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo

Looks like another left handed specialist. I'm not so sure this is what we needed. 2 left handed specialists? I just hope Manuel will see this and know how to properly use the guy.

That should be in deep pink

TRL
07-29-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You mean a guy like the rookie ball pitcher the Red Sox sent to the Reds for Williamson? It's a buyers market. We could have gotten a decent pitcher from someone somewhere. I guess we still might. But why do we have Scott Schoeneweis?


I think the Red Sox also sent money to the Reds for Williamson. I think we all know that the Sox aren't going to do something like that.

I was watching "This is SportsCenter" tonight and they were talking to Gammons behind the scene and he made a comment about Jose Guillen possibly being traded to the Royals either tomorrow or Thursday.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


You mean a guy like the rookie ball pitcher the Red Sox sent to the Reds for Williamson? It's a buyers market. We could have gotten a decent pitcher from someone somewhere. I guess we still might. But why do we have Scott Schoeneweis?

Yeah, he was a rookie ball pitcher, but he was still a prospect. Anderson played in R ball this year, does that mean that he's not a prospect?

Originally posted by Dadawg_77


Maybe but if Sox are going for it all K-Rod or Donnley would have been nice.

There are a whole bunch of teams who would love to get their hands on those two, but we need to keep some sort of minor league system. I'm one of the people here in favor of going for it all this year. Other people at this board are the ones saying that we have already given up too much of our minors system.


Originally posted by MHOUSE
Like I said before, it seems like a trade for the sake of making one.

I completely agree with you. I don't really like this trade. I don't not like it, but I don't really see what it does for us. We get a guy who's making 1.4 million dollars this year, and his ERA is barely under 4. I think we need another reliever that we can count on in the close innings towards the end of a ball game.

gogosoxgogo
07-29-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
That should be in deep pink

Why? Look at those stats, he looks pretty dominating against lefties.

Dadawg_77
07-30-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Why? Look at those stats, he looks pretty dominating against lefties.

no the fact you are hoping JM uses his bullpen well.

WhiteSox = Life
07-30-2003, 12:03 AM
Maybe Kenny only picked up Schoeneweis as the trump card to get the Pirates to trade Suppan to us.

Maybe Kenny only picked up Schoeneweis as the trump card to get the Pirates to trade Suppan to us.

Take your choice.

kermittheefrog
07-30-2003, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Yeah, he was a rookie ball pitcher, but he was still a prospect. Anderson played in R ball this year, does that mean that he's not a prospect?


Anderson was a first round draft pick, the guy the Sox traded wasn't. Anderson is a hitter, the guy the Sox traded was a pitcher and is therefore much more likely to have a major injury. How often do hitters miss seasons with tommy john surgery or have their talent ruined by a torn labrum?

MarkEdward
07-30-2003, 12:46 AM
Schoeneweis as a reliever? Now I really don't like this trade. As a reliever, Schoeneweis is the equivalent of Kelly Wunsch: a LOOGY. He can't get righties out, and this won't bode well in high-risk situations.

Another important point is that he's been very good as a starter! In 2001 and 2002, he was used as a starter. In those years, he put up ERA+'s of 91 and 93, his best ERA+ years. In 2001, his SNWAR was 2.0 (very good for a fifth starter). In 2002, it was .5 (not bad).

We still need a righty out of the pen...

kermittheefrog
07-30-2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Schoeneweis as a reliever? Now I really don't like this trade. As a reliever, Schoeneweis is the equivalent of Kelly Wunsch: a LOOGY. He can't get righties out, and this won't bode well in high-risk situations.

Another important point is that he's been very good as a starter! In 2001 and 2002, he was used as a starter. In those years, he put up ERA+'s of 91 and 93, his best ERA+ years. In 2001, his SNWAR was 2.0 (very good for a fifth starter). In 2002, it was .5 (not bad).

We still need a righty out of the pen...

Did you just call ERA+ numbers of 91 and 93 very good? Are you kidding? He's been about as good as Dan Wright as a starter. Although I don't have a problem with going to Wright as the #5 guy.

MarkEdward
07-30-2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Did you just call ERA+ numbers of 91 and 93 very good? Are you kidding? He's been about as good as Dan Wright as a starter. Although I don't have a problem with going to Wright as the #5 guy.

No, I said his 2001 SNWAR was good enough for a fifth starter. His 91 and 93 ERA+'s are the best ERA+'s of his career. And an ERA+ over 90 for a back-of-the-rotation starter isn't horrible.

I'd be happy with either Wright or Schoeneweis as our fifth starter.

delben91
07-30-2003, 07:12 AM
I like this trade if for no other reason than that Schoenweis may actually get some work out of the pen and contribute to lessening the load on the rest of the Sox relievers. Glover for whatever reason wasn't going to get any playing time and was basically wasting a seat in the pen. Not to say he couldn't have done decently if given the chance, but he wasn't going to get that chance.

Based on the numbers, I can't see Schoenweis moving to the rotation immediately, though I wouldn't be opposed to him going there eventually.

Also, I'm trying to decipher various posts, but is he signed through next season and is arbitration eligible? Or is he a FA at the end of the year?

delben91
07-30-2003, 07:13 AM
Oh, and one more thing...

:tomatoaward

hold2dibber
07-30-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
This is a huge non-move. Schoeneweis is the worst releiver in the Angels pen. Couldn't we have gotten any of the other guys? Donnelly? Weber? Shields? Come on. I would like to see Nickle given a shot on the team instead of White but I don't see that happening. The Sox aren't that inventive but a guy who can tear up a hitters league like the PCL deserves a shot.

Meanwhile the Red Sox get Scott Williamson for a name in rookie ball. This is the guy we needed. Or basically anyone else in the Angels pen. What is Kenny thinking?

I actually think this move was made for next year, not this year. Glover wasn't getting any work and has shown he isn't a starter. The Sox probably will need another starter next year. Shoenweiss may be that guy. The primary problem I have with this thinking is that with White stinkin' it up again, Glover probably was in line (or certainly should have been in line) to take his innings. Ginter is going to have to step up and get the job done, because White seems to me to be just about done.

WhiteSox = Life
07-30-2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I actually think this move was made for next year, not this year. Glover wasn't getting any work and has shown he isn't a starter. The Sox probably will need another starter next year. Shoenweiss may be that guy. The primary problem I have with this thinking is that with White stinkin' it up again, Glover probably was in line (or certainly should have been in line) to take his innings. Ginter is going to have to step up and get the job done, because White seems to me to be just about done.

But, why now?

Kenny has preached going for it this year and then, if this is true, he's prepping for next year. Would Schoeneweis not have been available later this year? Couldn't you have gone for him during the offseason, even if he does have a contract for next year?

I just don't see what Kenny's thinking here is. Maybe he's thinking the Sox, barring a long playoff run, are going to lose some starters next year, so he's shoring up this year. But, why go after a starter-turned-bullpen guy? Why not look for a pitcher who already starts?

I might be looking at this parochially (wouldn't be the first time), but I just don't see the logic in this trade, besides dumping Glover and picking up Schoeneweis for next year, which doesn't follow Kenny's plan for this year. I don't know.

That being said, I hope Schoeneweis does nothing but dominate every hitter he faces.

:smile:

Tragg
07-30-2003, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You mean a guy like the rookie ball pitcher the Red Sox sent to the Reds for Williamson? It's a buyers market. We could have gotten a decent pitcher from someone somewhere. I guess we still might. But why do we have Scott Schoeneweis?

Well, Kenny went after Williamson. Now, you have to figure that Kenny offered a lot more than an A ball pitcher ( he always does). Yet, Kenny didn't get the player. Why?
I can think of one answer - money.
As a secondary answer - I think that Kenny has proven to be so gullible in the past (giving up too much; taking stiffs from other teams on the word of the gm that they can pitch) that coming away with anything less than a haul from kw will make a gm a laughingstock. KW was probably offering players like glover, maybe white, whom the reds have no interest in. Just kidding here, but not totally.

fquaye149
07-30-2003, 08:28 AM
i don't know if this has already been said

but i think this move was trade fodder...

i think kw is trying to bargain with a team looking for a left handed relief pitcher...since left handed relief pitchers are obviously the one thing we have an excess of right now. however for many team a spot reliever as effective on the splits as schoenweis is a huge commodity. this could be something we might want to go after a starter...someone like escobar or hernandez might come easier to us if we can offer a lefty in relief...not too say i'm champing at the bit to get them...but

i think this is a setup move...i mean...kw has made some odd moves in the past but to get a lefty relief pitcher when that is one of our strengths seems beyond odd at best....but we'll see


just remember, you heard it here first!

dickallen15
07-30-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
i don't know if this has already been said

but i think this move was trade fodder...

i think kw is trying to bargain with a team looking for a left handed relief pitcher...since left handed relief pitchers are obviously the one thing we have an excess of right now. however for many team a spot reliever as effective on the splits as schoenweis is a huge commodity. this could be something we might want to go after a starter...someone like escobar or hernandez might come easier to us if we can offer a lefty in relief...not too say i'm champing at the bit to get them...but

i think this is a setup move...i mean...kw has made some odd moves in the past but to get a lefty relief pitcher when that is one of our strengths seems beyond odd at best....but we'll see


just remember, you heard it here first!


I was thinking about that yesterday. I also thought the interest in Boone was for the same kind of thing. Maybe Ponson. It doesn't look like any of it is going to pan out, but I do appreciate the effort, and at the very least they acquired a guy they can use for a guy they were afraid to use.

WhiteSox = Life
07-30-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
i don't know if this has already been said

but i think this move was trade fodder...

i think kw is trying to bargain with a team looking for a left handed relief pitcher...since left handed relief pitchers are obviously the one thing we have an excess of right now. however for many team a spot reliever as effective on the splits as schoenweis is a huge commodity. this could be something we might want to go after a starter...someone like escobar or hernandez might come easier to us if we can offer a lefty in relief...not too say i'm champing at the bit to get them...but

i think this is a setup move...i mean...kw has made some odd moves in the past but to get a lefty relief pitcher when that is one of our strengths seems beyond odd at best....but we'll see


just remember, you heard it here first!

Ahem! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=216167#post216167)

:)

Originally posted by dickallen15



I was thinking about that yesterday. I also thought the interest in Boone was for the same kind of thing. Maybe Ponson. It doesn't look like any of it is going to pan out, but I do appreciate the effort, and at the very least they acquired a guy they can use for a guy they were afraid to use.

:KW
"No one can unravel what's in my brain!"

fquaye149
07-30-2003, 08:47 AM
^great minds think alike then!

WhiteSox = Life
07-30-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
^great minds think alike then!

Are you talking about you and Kenny or you and me?

:D:

jabrch
07-30-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Per ESPN.com he's got 5 years experience, so that would mean he's arbitration eligible. If that's true it's a nice move for next year as well.

Possible '04 rotation
Buehrle ~$7M
Garland ~$4M
Loazia ~$4M
Schoenweiss ~$3M

A decent, relatively cost efficient, rotation.


Why are we all assuming that Colon is gone after this year?

gosox41
07-30-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I just don't understand talking to the Angels about bullpen help and with all the fantastic pitchers in their pen he gets the one guy that is of no use to them or us. It's mind boggling.

My guess is KW saw this as a move for now and the future. Now the Sox have a potential fifth starter for 2004, and if not he'll be a decent reliever. He doesn't cost all that much and after next year the Sox can probably get a pick for him.

Bob

gosox41
07-30-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Why are we all assuming that Colon is gone after this year?

Unless the Sox go to the playoffs and due some damange, it's hihgly unlikely JR will give a long term deal to Colon for the type of money he wants. Also remember the Yankmees are interested in Colon and will have no problem overpaying for him.

Obviously we need to see how this season goes, but the Sox have a lot of salary issues next year. From Magglio's salary jumping from $9 mill to $14 mill to Galrand, Buehrle, and Lee all being arbitration eligible and in line for big raises. If the Sox go far in the playoffs then JR is forced to bring back the keys. If not there will be major changes made to the roster.

That being said, I do like Colon. But he certainly hasn't pitched as well as I thought he would for the team. Is he worth $9-10 mill. per year for 4 years? If he pitches the rest of the year like he did the last 2 outings I'll change my mind, but he is definitely not as impressive as I thought.

Bob

Steve Bartman
07-30-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Why are we all assuming that Colon is gone after this year?
:reinsy
"What? Me pay a pitcher what he's worth?"

Lip Man 1
07-30-2003, 11:27 AM
The Sporting news said that the Red Sox paid Cincy 1.2 million as part of the Williamson deal.

Lip

Randar68
07-30-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Unless the Sox go to the playoffs and due some damange, it's hihgly unlikely JR will give a long term deal to Colon for the type of money he wants. Also remember the Yankmees are interested in Colon and will have no problem overpaying for him.

Obviously we need to see how this season goes, but the Sox have a lot of salary issues next year. From Magglio's salary jumping from $9 mill to $14 mill to Galrand, Buehrle, and Lee all being arbitration eligible and in line for big raises. If the Sox go far in the playoffs then JR is forced to bring back the keys. If not there will be major changes made to the roster.

That being said, I do like Colon. But he certainly hasn't pitched as well as I thought he would for the team. Is he worth $9-10 mill. per year for 4 years? If he pitches the rest of the year like he did the last 2 outings I'll change my mind, but he is definitely not as impressive as I thought.

Bob

2nd in the league in CG's (Might lead if not for Jerry pulling him early all the time) and he has been good in big games.