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View Full Version : Kelly Wunsch on with Moron and Jerko


FJA
07-28-2003, 06:41 PM
Is anyone listening to this? Kelly sounds like he's really trying to do some damage control from Rick White's comments ... he said JM already knows their feelings from a meeting.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by FJA
Is anyone listening to this? Kelly sounds like he's really trying to do some damage control from Rick White's comments ... he said JM already knows their feelings from a meeting.

I think this is significant. Many people have jumped on White because he isn't "good enough" to be speaking out publicly against his manager. However, if Wunsch is saying the subject was previously discussed in a team meeting, that would indicate White was speaking up out of frustration that the team's pleas to management were being ignored.

I really don't think there is any good excuse for Manuel having the next day's starting pitcher sitting in the bullpen. I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was Buerhle who was complaining about it. White was simply speaking up on behalf of his teammate.

And yes, pulling the chain on a ballplayer unnecessarily DOES make a difference in how well we should expect him to perform.

Incompetent boob -----------------> :jerry

RKMeibalane
07-28-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I think this is significant. Many people have jumped on White because he isn't "good enough" to speaking out publicly against his manager. However, if Wunsch is saying the subject was previously discussed in a team meeting, that would indicate White was speaking up out of frustration that the team's pleas to management were being ignored.

I really don't think there is any good excuse for Manuel having the next day's starting pitcher sitting in the bullpen. I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was Buerhle who was complaining about it. White was simply speaking up on behalf of his teammate.

And yes, pulling the chain on a ballplayer unnecessarily DOES make a difference in how well we should expect him to perform.

Incompetent boob -----------------> :jerry

I've about had it with Manuel and all of his screwy personel moves. How in the world does he expect the players to perform up to their capability when he's constantly tinkering with the lineup, moving people back and forth from one role to another, and saying things that he never follows through on? How does his justify this crap?

I would love to see the Sox make it to the post-season. Having said that, a playoff appearance probably guarantees that Manuel will be around through next season, at the least.

MHOUSE
07-29-2003, 12:15 AM
If we could make the playoffs this year, dump Manuel, and reload slighty with a new manager then we can win a lot of games. We have the talent to win, just not the manager to get the most from it. All the players won't hesitate to say that a lack of roles and consistency hinders their ability to play to their full potential everyday. White was frustrated after his bad outing and vented a little more than normal. Kelly gave a fair assessment of the situation I thought and didn't side heavily in either direction.

Fisk72
07-29-2003, 01:04 AM
I heard the interview while driving on my way to work out. Anywho, I really think this whole issue is getting blown way out of proportion. And IMHO, I REALLY got the impression that the Moron was trying to instigate and get something more out of it. I hate him.

jeremyb1
07-29-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
if Wunsch is saying the subject was previously discussed in a team meeting, that would indicate White was speaking up out of frustration that the team's pleas to management were being ignored.

how do you know the meeting took place before and not after white lashed out? i didn't get that it took place before from the first post.

LASOXFAN
07-29-2003, 06:10 PM
The real problem is that any of us are discussing this. This should've remained in the clubhouse, as it would have on a winning organization. White's an ass. Right or wrong, he should keep it out of the media. Last time I checked, there is no cure for cancer.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
how do you know the meeting took place before and not after white lashed out? i didn't get that it took place before from the first post.

I don't know. Furthermore, I didn't hear the interview.

I do know that Wunsch's interview took place on Monday, just hours after White's comments were published in the Southtown. I also know the Sox had a day off on Monday, so no clubhouse discussion between Manuel and White was possible, unless you're conceding that White DID go to Manuel sometime Sunday before the clubhouse cleared out and before Arvia's column hit the presses.

Maybe Manuel called White on a cell phone and cleared the air Monday morning. Of course White would have to call Wunsch to let him know that. And of course Wunsch could be flat out lying. Ballplayers have been known to do that for a teammate.

Or, as I believe, the issue involving starting pitchers in the bullpen has been discussed in the clubhouse and left unresolved.

Here is something I know 100 percent for fact: Rick White has not started a single ballgame for the Sox this year. His personal interest in the angst the starting pitchers feel by being told to sit in the bullpen the day before their scheduled start is not his personal concern and only that of a teammate.

If any of this makes Rick White into the villian, more power to you for reaching that conclusion.

FJA
07-29-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
how do you know the meeting took place before and not after white lashed out? i didn't get that it took place before from the first post.

The impression I got from the interview was that a meeting--I think Wunsch said it was between coaches, manager and bullpen--took place some time ago.

MarqSox
07-29-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I think this is significant. Many people have jumped on White because he isn't "good enough" to be speaking out publicly against his manager. However, if Wunsch is saying the subject was previously discussed in a team meeting, that would indicate White was speaking up out of frustration that the team's pleas to management were being ignored.


Or perhaps management simply disagreed with what White had to say? Just because a player has a beef doesn't mean he's right or that the player's point of view needs to be adopted.

If that were the case, Armando Rios and Jeff Liefer would be our starting outfielders.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Or perhaps management simply disagreed with what White had to say? Just because a player has a beef doesn't mean he's right or that the player's point of view needs to be adopted.

If that were the case, Armando Rios and Jeff Liefer would be our starting outfielders.

Rios and Liefer sucked. If they wanted more playing time, tough ****.

I would love to hear your defense of Manuel putting Buehrle and other starters in the bullpen the day before their scheduled start. It's bull****. That was Rick White's point, and he wasn't speaking up for himself when he said it. More power to him, I say.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
The real problem is that any of us are discussing this. This should've remained in the clubhouse, as it would have on a winning organization. White's an ass. Right or wrong, he should keep it out of the media. Last time I checked, there is no cure for cancer.

Obviously all such matters would ideally be handled inside the clubhouse. I think it is worth noting that it was exactly one year ago that the controversy between Thomas and Konerko erupted. Personally I believe that one was FAR WORSE because it was one teammate criticizing another teammate in public by name. If White is to be believed (and nobody has contradicted him), the issues he has raised are not his alone but are shared by many others in the clubhouse, too. White couldn't possibly be speaking up for himself regarding the angst the starters feel for being sent to the bullpen the day before their starts. White is not a starter.

My point is this. Whatever faults we do or don't prescribe to manager Jerry Manuel, it should be obvious by now that he is definitely not the guy who the team rallies around any longer. He lost control of his clubhouse in 2002 and he is on verge of losing them again in 2003. It's just one more reason, IMO, he needs to be shown the door. I've been saying this for exactly one year now.

Unlike Rios, Liefer, or even Paul Konerko last July, Rick White is speaking up for others who (for whatever reasons) choose not to speak up themselves. Given what guys like Mark "I'd rather be a Cardinal" Buehrle have been put through when they say something controversial, I can understand why they would be reluctant to speak up. White must know he has no future in Chicago, and has nothing to protect. His credibility is at least as good as what Konerko said publicly against a teammate, Frank Thomas, last season.

RKMeibalane
07-29-2003, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
My point is this. Whatever faults we do or don't prescribe to manager Jerry Manuel, it should be obvious by now that he is definitely not the guy who the team rallies around any longer. He lost control of his clubhouse in 2002 and he is on verge of losing them again in 2003. It's just one more reason, IMO, he needs to be shown the door. I've been saying this for exactly one year now.

I agree. Manuel clearly has no control over the members of this team. Just like last season, players are running around and talking to anyone who listen, because they don't respect Manuel enough to keep their mouths shut. And JM has nobody to blame for that but himself. He is spinless.

If I were in his position, I would make it clear that players are not to talk to the media following a team meeting. Whatever is disussed in the privacy of the clubhouse is supposd to remain in the clubhouse. If any of the players talked to the media, they would fined, and harshly. It's understandable that players become frustrated, but that is not an excuse for them to be openly griping about it in front of someone with a pen or a tape recorder.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not blaming Rick White for what happened. He was speaking his mind, and I can't fault a player for being honest. The person I blame is Jerry Manuel. He needs to set some rules in that clubhouse and enforce them. People are going behind his back talking to the media and complaining about everything from playing time to the flavors of ice cream he buys for them. It's getting old, and if Jerry Manuel has any balls whatsoever, he'll put a stop to it.

Maybe that last sentence should have been in deep pink.

MarqSox
07-29-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Rios and Liefer sucked. If they wanted more playing time, tough ****.

I would love to hear your defense of Manuel putting Buehrle and other starters in the bullpen the day before their scheduled start. It's bull****. That was Rick White's point, and he wasn't speaking up for himself when he said it. More power to him, I say.

That was exactly my point about Rios and Liefer -- the players aren't always right.

As for the bullpen, I don't know, but I'm willing to give Manuel the doubt, even though most of you all aren't.

Maybe he feels the pitcher is more likely to get into a pitching frame of mind when he's surrounded by other pitchers? If the guys in the bullpen are doing their job, they're focusing on the tendencies of the different hitters and are discussing how to get them out. Whether this actually goes on or not, I don't know -- but it should be.

RKMeibalane
07-29-2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
That was exactly my point about Rios and Liefer -- the players aren't always right.

As for the bullpen, I don't know, but I'm willing to give Manuel the doubt, even though most of you all aren't.

Maybe he feels the pitcher is more likely to get into a pitching frame of mind when he's surrounded by other pitchers? If the guys in the bullpen are doing their job, they're focusing on the tendencies of the different hitters and are discussing how to get them out. Whether this actually goes on or not, I don't know -- but it should be.

You raise an interesting point, MarqSox. As a matter of fact, the Atlanta Braves starters of the '90's (Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, etc.) used to sit and discuss pitching all the time. They were always sitting together in the dugout or the bullpen, and each seemed to be studying the opposition for weaknesses. Considering that one could make a case for all three men to be elected in the HOF, it would be a good idea for Sox pitchers to follow this example.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-29-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
That was exactly my point about Rios and Liefer -- the players aren't always right.

Your point is valid. However, Rios and Liefer were both speaking on behalf of their personal interest, but White was not. That was my point.

Originally posted by MarqSox
As for the bullpen, I don't know, but I'm willing to give Manuel the doubt, even though most of you all aren't.

Maybe he feels the pitcher is more likely to get into a pitching frame of mind when he's surrounded by other pitchers? If the guys in the bullpen are doing their job, they're focusing on the tendencies of the different hitters and are discussing how to get them out. Whether this actually goes on or not, I don't know -- but it should be.

I don't get it. If the ballplayers THEMSELVES are telling you they aren't comfortable, why would you dictate to them otherwise? It's not like Manuel has any personal experience as a starting pitcher.
:?:

As for focusing on tendencies, the view from inside the dugout is 100-times better than from out in the bullpen.

Pulling a ballplayer's chain unnecessarily is a sign of incompetence. I'm still left clueless why Manuel would have Buehrle and others guessing about what they're doing in the bullpen the day before their start--especially playing for a hyperactive manager who has fielded the same lineup two games in a row exactly ONCE this entire season.