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View Full Version : Our fifth starter is not our biggest problem


kermittheefrog
07-28-2003, 01:59 PM
Am I the only person who thinks if we have to make another trade giving up something we should get a reliever rather than a starter?

Wright isn't a terrible fifth starter. He's not good but no one has a great fifth starter. Our starting rotation has been fabulous this year and isn't showing any signs of slowing down. Our bullpen on the other hand is a two man operation with the potential to be three man depending ont he health of Kelly Wunsch. We need someone else in the pen. Even if we get a fifth starter it's not like the guy would help us once we were in the playoffs. In the playoffs we'll use a four man rotation and we'd still only have two good relievers.

If I were the Sox GM right now I'd be trying to nab a reliever and trying to get one of the Blue Jays catchers before I began to think about getting a new fifth starter.

CHISOXFAN13
07-28-2003, 02:10 PM
You could be right, but I'm feeling a little better about the oen with Wunsch back, and I think Ginter can be effective.

voodoochile
07-28-2003, 02:11 PM
See, I think that if they get the starter then they can put Wright in the pen if necessary, which strengthens both squads. Of course, the addition of Wunsch already adds an arm to a bullpen moving Marte to setup/closer exclusively and freeing him from his "lefty specialist role". I can't see two arms in the bullpen being worth more than one in the bullpen and one in the starting rotation.

Tragg
07-28-2003, 02:13 PM
I completely agree - been saying the same in a bunch of posts. An interesting question today would be better off with Osuna and Biddle (presuming manuel and kenny knew he could pitch) instead of Colon.
The Expo fans love Biddle.

duke of dorwood
07-28-2003, 02:16 PM
Glover has been fairly dependable in the past, how about him as a spot 5th starter? Then get some bullpen help-its cheaper. Glove seems to be finding his stuff now that the clown is using him.

delben91
07-28-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Glover has been fairly dependable in the past, how about him as a spot 5th starter? Then get some bullpen help-its cheaper. Glove seems to be finding his stuff now that the clown is using him.

I think Glover's solid outing was definitely over-looked for the most part. It would be great to have him throwing well again. Riding any "hot streak" such as it were of Glover's and maybe putting Wright in the pen is an interesting option. I still vote for trying to fill either the 5th rotation spot, or a slot in the pen by going outside the organization, as there are many viable, and probably superior options than Gary Glover and Danny Wright.

Tragg
07-28-2003, 02:27 PM
Because Glover rarely got bombed as a starter, he appeared better than he was. Nevertheless, he rarely went more than 6 and rarely gave up less than 3 - so a 4.50 outing was a good day for Glover. That may be good enough for us right now - but one thing's for sure, we'll need a bullpen arm.
Put Wright in the pen, at least.

daveb816
07-28-2003, 02:48 PM
Glover had several terrible starts - at Atlanta 6/22, vs. Twins on 8/19, at Cleveland 5/31, vs. Tigers 5/25, at Texas 5/7, etc.

He's a much better reliever than starter - leave him there.

kermittheefrog
07-28-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Glover has been fairly dependable in the past, how about him as a spot 5th starter? Then get some bullpen help-its cheaper. Glove seems to be finding his stuff now that the clown is using him.

Glover was an atrocity in the starting rotation. Much worse than Wright has ever been. In 116 IP as a starter Glover allowed 82 runs. Thats terrible. He is much better as a reliever because he gets bombed by lefties. Really he's not even the right guy to be a long reliever the way Manuel uses him.

MarkEdward
07-28-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog

If I were the Sox GM right now I'd be trying to nab a reliever and trying to get one of the Blue Jays catchers before I began to think about getting a new fifth starter.

I agree, but I still wouldn't mind seeing Jeff Suppan come here. If not for his high walk rate, I would like to see Wright back up here. Porzio wasn't that bad, but he could only pitch five innings during any given start.

If I were the GM, I'd go after another righty reliever. I haven't looked at relievers much, but Paul Quantrill comes to mind (if the Dodgers have convinced themselves that they're out of the race).

As for the Jays, I'd stay away from dealing with them. I've been very impressed with Ricciardi, and I don't want Kenny getting near him. As for the catching situation, Ramon Castro is still available.

kempsted
07-28-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
I completely agree - been saying the same in a bunch of posts. An interesting question today would be better off with Osuna and Biddle (presuming manuel and kenny knew he could pitch) instead of Colon.
The Expo fans love Biddle.

No way. A starter is much more valuable than a relief pitcher and Colon is more valuable than Biddle for sure. Short relief is HIGHLY overrated. Much easier to be a good short relief guy than a good starter. When starters lose their stuff they become relief pitchers.

jeremyb1
07-28-2003, 06:05 PM
you're dead on kermit. go with wright, diaz or cotts as the fifth starter. i'd prefer wright but we seem to have issues with him right now. cotts has walked a lot of guys in AA but we only need someone to keep us in games and he may be able to do that. it seems as though we could have a solid reliever for relatively little and that could take us a long ways. there may be some hope otherwise if manuel shows a willingness to use glover who's thrown better lately in key situations or is willing to give ginter a shot. the safe bet is definately to acquire a reliever, if we'd eat some salary it'd be pretty simple.

kermittheefrog
07-28-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
No way. A starter is much more valuable than a relief pitcher and Colon is more valuable than Biddle for sure. Short relief is HIGHLY overrated. Much easier to be a good short relief guy than a good starter. When starters lose their stuff they become relief pitchers.

You're right in that on average a starter is more valuable than a reliever. And certainly getting someone like Jeff Suppan will help us get to the playoffs. But what then? We still don't have a pen if we just get a starter. What's the point in playing to make it to the playoffs if you can play to win in the playoffs. We need relief help if we're going to win in the postseason.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
The Expo fans love Biddle.

I can vouch for the accuracy of Tragg's statement. I had all 12 of them on a conference call just last week.

:smile:

DirtySouthsider
07-28-2003, 07:02 PM
When you're in a pennant race....and coming from behind you can't roll the dice every 5th day on your starting pitcher! Every game counts. Just like Saturday with Porzio...we should have beat TB and picked up a game on KC.....and didn't.

phaedrus
07-28-2003, 07:06 PM
When (if?) we make the playoffs we go down to a 4 man rotation and a solid 5th starter becomes your long/middle relief. If we can get ourselves in that position I think we have the 2nd best 4 man rotation going if we stay healthy. Our top 4 will be hard to beat in 7 games.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
When you're in a pennant race....and coming from behind you can't roll the dice every 5th day on your starting pitcher! Every game counts. Just like Saturday with Porzio...we should have beat TB and picked up a game on KC.....and didn't.

The '93 Sox traded for mediocre starter Tim Belcher at the trading deadline to fill a similar fifth starter hole. Once the Sox clinched, Belcher was assigned to the playoff roster to perform RELIEF work. He pitched 3.2 key innings to get Bere the win in Game 4 of the ALCS for us against Toronto.

A starter can be converted to a reliever in the playoffs, but a reliever can rarely be converted to a starter. Besides, the Sox are trailing KC. We can't afford to role the dice every fifth game hoping everything works out. The Sox ought to get a 5th starter. If the move pays off, he could still prove useful out of the 'pen in October.

Tragg
07-28-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The '93 Sox traded for mediocre starter Tim Belcher at the trading deadline to fill a similar fifth starter hole. Once the Sox clinched, Belcher was assigned to the playoff roster to perform RELIEF work. He pitched 3.2 key innings to get Bere the win in Game 4 of the ALCS for us against Toronto.

A starter can be converted to a reliever in the playoffs, but a reliever can rarely be converted to a starter. Besides, the Sox are trailing KC. We can't afford to role the dice every fifth game hoping everything works out. The Sox ought to get a 5th starter. If the move pays off, he could still prove useful out of the 'pen in October.
Actually Belcher did the second to best pitching on the team during the playoffs-second behind Bere (while McDowell and Fernandez stunk it up). Belcher was pitching long relief, however. That's fine - just make sure the pitcher can pitch in relief. I still say wright is better than some of the folks we have in our pen right now.

gosox41
07-28-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Am I the only person who thinks if we have to make another trade giving up something we should get a reliever rather than a starter?

Wright isn't a terrible fifth starter. He's not good but no one has a great fifth starter. Our starting rotation has been fabulous this year and isn't showing any signs of slowing down. Our bullpen on the other hand is a two man operation with the potential to be three man depending ont he health of Kelly Wunsch. We need someone else in the pen. Even if we get a fifth starter it's not like the guy would help us once we were in the playoffs. In the playoffs we'll use a four man rotation and we'd still only have two good relievers.

If I were the Sox GM right now I'd be trying to nab a reliever and trying to get one of the Blue Jays catchers before I began to think about getting a new fifth starter.

Adding a starter should strenghten the 'pen. Whether it's Ginter or Wright out of the bullpen, it'll be that much better. Adding a releiver doesn't solve the fifth starter problem, but does give the newly acquired reliever a chance to pitch that much more.

Bob

gosox41
07-28-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You're right in that on average a starter is more valuable than a reliever. And certainly getting someone like Jeff Suppan will help us get to the playoffs. But what then? We still don't have a pen if we just get a starter. What's the point in playing to make it to the playoffs if you can play to win in the playoffs. We need relief help if we're going to win in the postseason.

In a short series, our bullpen will be fine (of course I'd like to see the Sox get one more starter and reliever.) Remember that only a 3 man rotation is needed in the playoffs so Garland and the #5 starter could be used out of the 'pen and should be relied up to give pitch more then 5 innings if necessary.

Of course the Sox need to get to the playoffs first.

Bob

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
In a short series, our bullpen will be fine (of course I'd like to see the Sox get one more starter and reliever.) Remember that only a 3 man rotation is needed in the playoffs so Garland and the #5 starter could be used out of the 'pen and should be relied up to give pitch more then 5 innings if necessary.

Of course the Sox need to get to the playoffs first.

Bob

Our pen will not be okay if Gen. Disarray burns out Marte and Gordon before September. He appears to be well on his way.

kermittheefrog
07-28-2003, 10:34 PM
Do you really think they'll be smart enough to just use a starter out the pen. I think that Manuel would run on the conventional wisdom that a guy needs to be accostomed to working out the pen. I don't see the Sox using a starter out of the pen if he doesn't have any experience pitching out the pen. How can you trust the guys we have running this outfit?

DirtySouthsider
07-28-2003, 10:48 PM
If everybody wants a starter who can eventually work out of the pen then Kelvim Escobar fits that role perfectly. He's a starter this year but worked as a closer last year for the Jays.

As far as Wright goes......he still gives up WAY TOO MANY WALKS! that is what has hurt him as a starter and would scare me if he came in in a curcial situation out of the pen.

kempsted
07-29-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You're right in that on average a starter is more valuable than a reliever. And certainly getting someone like Jeff Suppan will help us get to the playoffs. But what then? We still don't have a pen if we just get a starter. What's the point in playing to make it to the playoffs if you can play to win in the playoffs. We need relief help if we're going to win in the postseason.

OK but you missed what question I was responding to.

Here is what I said No way. A starter is much more valuable than a relief pitcher and Colon is more valuable than Biddle for sure. Short relief is HIGHLY overrated. Much easier to be a good short relief guy than a good starter. When starters lose their stuff they become relief pitchers.

I was responding to this :
An interesting question today would be better off with Osuna and Biddle (presuming manuel and kenny knew he could pitch) instead of Colon.

So again - No I would much rather have Colon than Biddle. Biddle really isn't doing that great. His ERA is 3.60 something and he has 5 blown saves. The reason he seems better is he is playing for a real manager - Frank Robinson.

Jjav829
07-29-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I can vouch for the accuracy of Tragg's statement. I had all 12 of them on a conference call just last week.

:smile:

Is that including the Biddle family? :smile:

Thunderstruck30
07-29-2003, 01:09 AM
I think getting another reliever is more important for this team. The rotation is good with the exception of the #5 starter but you cant expect much from a 5th starter. The Sox have three good relievers in Wunsch, Gordon, and Marte, but these guys are only used in late innings. I think the Sox should try and pick up a good long/middle reliever. He can be useful if one of the starters, most likely the #5 guy, gets in trouble early.

VeeckAsInWreck
07-29-2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Thunderstruck30
I think the Sox should try and pick up a good long/middle reliever. He can be useful if one of the starters, most likely the #5 guy, gets in trouble early.

If you get a good #5. (like Jeff Suppan *hint*) You won't be over using Wunsch, Marte and Gordon.

Thunderstruck30
07-29-2003, 01:12 AM
One more thing I forgot to mention, just about every championship baseball team has a great bullpen. Just look at the Angels of last year.

DirtySouthsider
07-29-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Thunderstruck30
I think getting another reliever is more important for this team. The rotation is good with the exception of the #5 starter but you cant expect much from a 5th starter. The Sox have three good relievers in Wunsch, Gordon, and Marte, but these guys are only used in late innings. I think the Sox should try and pick up a good long/middle reliever. He can be useful if one of the starters, most likely the #5 guy, gets in trouble early.


I don't think a good team assumes they are going to have a bad #5 starter so therefore they must get good relief pitching to cover up for him! That's absurd! Every single game is important from here on out. We are coming from behind right now and guys are talking like we are already in the playoffs. We MUST make up 4 games right now and rolling the dice every 5th day isn't the way to do it!

kempsted
07-29-2003, 10:02 AM
Another thing to keep in mind in all of this. Virtually every team that is still in it is looking at starting pitching. Even the Cubs...
They also ALL have Suppan and Ponson on their lists. There were more scouts from other teams watching him pitch his last game than there were fans... If we go for either of these guys we better have a lot to offer.