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View Full Version : White "pitches a fit" over Manuel's moves!


SoxxoS
07-28-2003, 09:26 AM
Very, very interesting. (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/arvia/x28-ard1.htm)

QueerGirrl
07-28-2003, 09:41 AM
Wow, it's difficult to blame hitters and pitchers when this kind of tinkering goes on. 94 different lineups in 105 games?? That's ridiculous! No wonder our offense isn't as good as it should be.

fledgedrallycap
07-28-2003, 09:42 AM
The Daily Southtown gets the dirt, man.

Did you read the Notebook section with Frank demanding another arm?

I like how Frank and Rick are speaking thier mind, but at the same time when responding to Rick's comments - Manual hasn't had many options. Until recently, White himself has sucked, we all know about Koch, Wunch was hurt, and some of those other guys have been dead weight.

The fact is, Sox starters have been flat out getting the job done - pitching seven solid innings each game leaving only Marte and Gordon who everyone would be critizing Manual for NOT using at that point in the game.

They recalled Ginter whom I always thought was a good middle relief guy - good move.

A.T. Money
07-28-2003, 09:55 AM
It'd be great to get another arm. Ponson or Suppan would qualify as a 4th starter and make Garland the 5th starter. It's hard to complain about the pitching, which leads the AL in quality starts. However, each game now is critical, and it'll be nice to have confidence in every game instead of having a question mark raised every fifth day.

Also, I'm not sure if I like all this bitching in the media from the players right now. We're winning at this point. Let's just play good ball and swallow it as long as we're going good.

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
The Daily Southtown gets the dirt, man.

Did you read the Notebook section with Frank demanding another arm?

I like how Frank and Rick are speaking thier mind, but at the same time when responding to Rick's comments - Manual hasn't had many options. Until recently, White himself has sucked, we all know about Koch, Wunch was hurt, and some of those other guys have been dead weight.

Until Saturday's outing, White had been pitching well for at least a month. In baseball time, that's not recent.

BTW, for those of you who went on to read Valentin's comments, remember, you heard it here first.

fledgedrallycap
07-28-2003, 10:52 AM
I have been around baseball for a while, but I was unaware of an official Time Zone or clock referencing "Baseball Time".... A relief pitcher who is on a good tear for a month - that is recent in my book.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2003, 12:44 PM
It's about time the players defended the comments and actions of Sox fans, which is what Valentin and White are actually doing.

Obviously the fans aren't the only ones upset by Manager Gandhi.

Lip

doublem23
07-28-2003, 12:46 PM
Rick White is bitching. RICK WHITE!?!?!?!?

He should be damn well thankful he has a job after the garbage he's been tossing for the majority of the season.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I'm sure it's the lack of "defined roles" that's making White serve up a generous amount of beach balls this year.

BKozi
07-28-2003, 12:59 PM
I'm not a big Rick White fan, but I would have to agree with him in this case. I think that consistency is critical for all baseball players. They need to know exactly what is expected of them every day, from when they will come in from the bullpen to where they will be hitting in the lineup. I know that just from playing slow-pitch softball, I get PO'd when I get moved around in the batting order, and that's just slow pitch softball! I can see how badly that could throw your game off in the majors if you didn't have a set spot in the batting order or didn't know when you were going to be going in the game.

soxfan45
07-28-2003, 01:01 PM
I agree, if anyone should not be compalining it should be White. Granted, he was a big risk to take this year but he hasn't gotten the job done.

As far as his comments about not having Marte or Gordon for Saturday night, frankly Jerry had to extend them in that Toronto game. I wouldn't have done it differently. I certainly don't want to see Koch in extra inning on the road, nor would I be happy with Glover. I think he rightly had to use our 2 "aces" in that situation. We needed that sweep.

I don't get White's comments. He came in an got shelled and he's upset. If I am him I shut my mouth. This staff is pitching very well with 2 exceptions, Koch, White, and our 5th starter.

I'm thinking that these guys are hoping that Danny Wright wakes up because he has a great arm.

Tragg
07-28-2003, 01:02 PM
It think it's legitimate to point out that manuel tends to use relievers until they drop, wait a few days and use them again. Well, at least the guns should be rested for ready for KC.
I was surpised that White was used so early against Tampa - I figured he would probably be our defacto closer, as he had been pitching the best.
Good to see Gary Glover pitching better.

LauraJ14
07-28-2003, 01:37 PM
I am just not buying this " I don't know my role" crap from Rick White. Doesn't each game dictate what you will do, so if our starters happen to get shelled 2 days in a row and we need to go to the bullpen early, then only Gary Glover can pitch because he is the 1-5 inning guy? I am sure that Glover can pitch 2-3 innings a couple of days in a row. Yah right!!!
I am not defending Manuel per se but I am sick of hearing this by players who have played this game for many years and can't adjust to what is happening in that particular game.

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by soxfan45
I agree, if anyone should not be compalining it should be White. Granted, he was a big risk to take this year but he hasn't gotten the job done.

As far as his comments about not having Marte or Gordon for Saturday night, frankly Jerry had to extend them in that Toronto game. I wouldn't have done it differently. I certainly don't want to see Koch in extra inning on the road, nor would I be happy with Glover. I think he rightly had to use our 2 "aces" in that situation. We needed that sweep.

I don't get White's comments. He came in an got shelled and he's upset. If I am him I shut my mouth. This staff is pitching very well with 2 exceptions, Koch, White, and our 5th starter.

I'm thinking that these guys are hoping that Danny Wright wakes up because he has a great arm.

It seems to me that White was instrumental in a couple of the wins during the 8-game winning streak.

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
I am just not buying this " I don't know my role" crap from Rick White. Doesn't each game dictate what you will do, so if our starters happen to get shelled 2 days in a row and we need to go to the bullpen early, then only Gary Glover can pitch because he is the 1-5 inning guy? I am sure that Glover can pitch 2-3 innings a couple of days in a row. Yah right!!!
I am not defending Manuel per se but I am sick of hearing this by players who have played this game for many years and can't adjust to what is happening in that particular game.

You might have a point about White's comments if Jose Valentin hadn't said the same thing about the batting order. And for the record, this is the second time Valentin has said it. I quoted him on this board last week as saying exactly what he said in today's article.

Kilroy
07-28-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
You might have a point about White's comments if Jose Valentin hadn't said the same thing about the batting order. And for the record, this is the second time Valentin has said it. I quoted him on this board last week as saying exactly what he said in today's article.

I don't buy it when Jose says it either. Your job in the batters box is dictated more by the situation than by the position on the line-up card.

Brian26
07-28-2003, 02:17 PM
Is Rick White trying to be the George Bell of the 2003 season?

He needs to keep his yap shut and start being a team player. The manager is part of the "team", and that means you don't rip your manager in the paper or on the radio.

I don't seem to recall Jerry Manual ripping the **** out of any of our players through the months of April, May and part of June when they couldn't hit the ball out of the infield. I certainly don't remember him blaming the bullpen for any losses either, even though Rick White himself melted down on several occassions.

Jerry was a man and took the heat. White should keep his mouth shut and show a little bit of appreciation and respect because of that. Rick White is possibly #20 or #21 on the importance list of this team, and if he can't deal with that he needs a trip to Charlotte to learn a little bit of respect.

As for Jose, I love the guy dearly and he's made some awesome memories for us for the past 4 years. However, he's about the weakest link in the lineup right now, so he needs to focus a little bit harder in batting practice and quit crying because he's not batting #2 in front of Frank anymore. I'm sure he's pissed that he's not feasting on the fastballs anymore in the #7 slot with Olivo hitting behind him. That's life. Hunker down and deal with it.

Time to be a team. We're in a pennant race. Shut the F up and play.

LASOXFAN
07-28-2003, 02:19 PM
With the exception of the last two weeks, has there ever been a moment of consistency on this team that would justify a set line up? When a ship is taking on water you either bail or sink. Manuel's tried to get something going night after night. Yes, it's a risky move that's going to open him up to criticism. This website alone is evidence of that. But has he really had a choice? When Valentin starts hitting over .250 and not making dumb errors late in games then he can speak up. And when Rick White is effective for more than 15 appearances then he too can sound off, because that's ALWAYS good for a team trying to right the ship and make the playoffs. I'm always reading about the Yankees and the Braves whining about their roles, their managers, etc. It's good for morale and a sure-fire way to get fans behind you. Especially heading into one of the most important road trips of the season.

Way to go Jose.

kempsted
07-28-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
With the exception of the last two weeks, has there ever been a moment of consistency on this team that would justify a set line up? When a ship is taking on water you either bail or sink. Manuel's tried to get something going night after night. Yes, it's a risky move that's going to open him up to criticism. This website alone is evidence of that. But has he really had a choice? When Valentin starts hitting over .250 and not making dumb errors late in games then he can speak up. And when Rick White is effective for more than 15 appearances then he too can sound off, because that's ALWAYS good for a team trying to right the ship and make the playoffs. I'm always reading about the Yankees and the Braves whining about their roles, their managers, etc. It's good for morale and a sure-fire way to get fans behind you. Especially heading into one of the most important road trips of the season.

Way to go Jose.

I would agree with you except for the fact he was tinkering at the beginning of the season when they were winning. Agreed if you are losing it sometimes helps to shake it up but he has used more lineups than any manager in baseball even after they win lose whatever.

But his line up management while bad is nothing compared to how badly he manages his pitchers. He pays no attention. He has 3 guys , White, Marte, and Gordon who all pitch pretty well when they are only in there for an inning or two but who consistently blow it when they go into their third innings but Manuel continues to leave them out there for that third inning. He leaves people in the bullpen for weeks and then expects them to perform in a game. Watch a real manager manage their staff and you will see pitchers coming in at least for a batter or two. Yes White has pitched badly but go back and look at his pattern of being used.

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I don't buy it when Jose says it either. Your job in the batters box is dictated more by the situation than by the position on the line-up card.

Quite often your position in the lineup affects the game situation. For example, a batter surrounding by .150 hitters is going to have different situations than one surrounded by .300 hitters most of the time.

jeremyb1
07-28-2003, 05:12 PM
rick white doesn't have a role, his era is over six. agree or disagree with him, blasting your manager in the press instead of talking him about it man to man is simply not acceptable in my opinion. blaming manuel for using the relievers it took to win a huge extra inning game against detroit is ridiculous in my opinion. if he has a problem he needs to talk to manuel and not the press.

D'Angelo F Death
07-28-2003, 05:20 PM
Manuel never calls out his players in the press. This is ridiculous, especially when the team's just won 9 of 10. White's got major delusions. Cowboy up FatBoy and try to get that ERA south of 5.00. Moron.

Manuel is infuriating at times, but the fact that he's used 95 different lineups is justified when there are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire team with respectable numbers. Casey Stengel used to tinker relentlessly and it seemed to work out.

Aw, I know he ain't Stengel, but jeesh...if Jose didn't go thru months were he hit .147 maybe he could hold the #2 slot.

kempsted
07-28-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
rick white doesn't have a role, his era is over six. agree or disagree with him, blasting your manager in the press instead of talking him about it man to man is simply not acceptable in my opinion. blaming manuel for using the relievers it took to win a huge extra inning game against detroit is ridiculous in my opinion. if he has a problem he needs to talk to manuel and not the press.

Not counting last outing which Manuel screwed him his ERA was 2.25 from June 1st to present. Even with that game his ERA is 3.56 since the begging of June. I'm not saying he's the best but you can't just look at cumulative ERA

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
Not counting last outing which Manuel screwed him his ERA was 2.25 from June 1st to present. Even with that game his ERA is 3.56 since the begging of June. I'm not saying he's the best but you can't just look at cumulative ERA

If Tony LaRussa had looked at White's cumulative ERA last year, he never would have used him the last half of the season.

RedPinStripes
07-28-2003, 05:55 PM
It's about time someone stood up. And it dont have to be a super star either. PREACH ON RICK! :cool: :gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2003, 05:59 PM
I agree. It's not like the only guy on the team with a brain in his head is the guy hitting .330 or sporting a 2.95 ERA. I heard any number of deep thinkers on sports blab radio today saying White wasn't good enough to make such comments. Go figure... :?:

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I agree. It's not like the only guy on the team with a brain in his head is the guy hitting .330 or sporting a 2.95 ERA. I heard any number of deep thinkers on sports blab radio today saying White wasn't good enough to make such comments. Go figure... :?:

Might it just be that guys like White and Valentin would actually like to win something, and that they feel that our current "manager" is not putting his players in the best position to do so? Might it just be that they agree to the "quote" I use in my sig? Might it just be that he really is Gen. Disarray?

Kilroy
07-28-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Quite often your position in the lineup affects the game situation. For example, a batter surrounding by .150 hitters is going to have different situations than one surrounded by .300 hitters most of the time.

I don't buy that either. If you come to bat w/ 1st and 2nd, no outs, and you arent Thomas or Maggs, your job is to get the runners into scoring position, regardless of whether the guy behind you is hitting .750, or .050.

If you're in there thinking about the guy behind you being a terrible hitter in risp situations then you're no team player. Do your job, and let the manager and the next man worry about his.
That was part of the Sox problem earlier this year. Everyone was trying to hit a 5 run dinger each time up because they didn't want to depend on their teammates.

Position in the lineup might dictate the type of pitches a player sees, but if Jose is complaining because of that, then he'd be a bit more selfish than we thought, wouldn't he?

flo-B-flo
07-28-2003, 06:40 PM
Rick White and manos de piedra like any other player can b**** and moan all they want. For a solid two months both of them were contributing to the relentlessy mediocre play that we all were watching. I love Valentin but his fielding (better since Alomar was acquired) has often killed the sox and this year his,Paul K,Crede,Olivo and slow starts from C Lee, Frank and Mags have all contributed to the hole the sox were in until the 8 game streak. To me you EARN hitting higher up in the order. Right now Valentin is not earning it. Personally I would like to see Valentin at lefty DH, cut daubach and put Tony G at short full time while bringing up Aaron Miles.

Daver
07-28-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by flo-B-flo
Personally I would like to see Valentin at lefty DH, cut daubach and put Tony G at short full time while bringing up Aaron Miles.

Why in the world would you want to see Aaron Miles called up?

gosox41
07-28-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Rick White is bitching. RICK WHITE!?!?!?!?

He should be damn well thankful he has a job after the garbage he's been tossing for the majority of the season.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I'm sure it's the lack of "defined roles" that's making White serve up a generous amount of beach balls this year.

White is 100% right about defining roles of players. Though because of the inconsistnecy of the bullpen (especially) Koch, it's hard to have roles when guys aren't filling them right.

But the lineup needs to be set. It's that simple. Winning teams tend to have players who know and accept their roles. Even the Bulls did. From MJ being the man to Jack Haley's role of babysitting, they all knew where they fit in, did the job and didn't complain.

I'm sure a lot of the everyday players feel this way but won't say anything. This is the third year in a row the offense has gone through an extended slump...not one or 2 players but more like 7 or 8 at once. It's more then the player's fault when this crap happens. All tinkering does is make it that much more difficult to get into a groove.

JM is an idiot and should be fired at the end of the season even if the team wins it all. The main reason is he never learns from his mistakes. He continously does the same crap over and over and it rarely works (see 1 good half of baseball in 5 1/2 years.)

Bob

gosox41
07-28-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
It think it's legitimate to point out that manuel tends to use relievers until they drop, wait a few days and use them again. Well, at least the guns should be rested for ready for KC.
I was surpised that White was used so early against Tampa - I figured he would probably be our defacto closer, as he had been pitching the best.
Good to see Gary Glover pitching better.

Glover is a very good reliever, just a lousy starter. There's no reason other then JM's incompetence that Glover doesn't have a larger role in the bullpen. He is pitching better as of late because he is getting a more defined role and not pitching once every 2 weeks.

Bob

gosox41
07-28-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by D'Angelo F Death
Manuel never calls out his players in the press. This is ridiculous, especially when the team's just won 9 of 10. White's got major delusions. Cowboy up FatBoy and try to get that ERA south of 5.00. Moron.

Manuel is infuriating at times, but the fact that he's used 95 different lineups is justified when there are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire team with respectable numbers. Casey Stengel used to tinker relentlessly and it seemed to work out.

Aw, I know he ain't Stengel, but jeesh...if Jose didn't go thru months were he hit .147 maybe he could hold the #2 slot.

It begs the question: Which come first, a teamwide slump or all the tinkering?

I think the tinkering extends slumps and messes everyone up when they don't know their role. Proven hitters that are young need to play everyday not sit on the bench 3 times a week to get out of their slump.

Bob

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by flo-B-flo
Rick White and manos de piedra like any other player can b**** and moan all they want. For a solid two months both of them were contributing to the relentlessy mediocre play that we all were watching. I love Valentin but his fielding (better since Alomar was acquired) has often killed the sox and this year his,Paul K,Crede,Olivo and slow starts from C Lee, Frank and Mags have all contributed to the hole the sox were in until the 8 game streak. To me you EARN hitting higher up in the order. Right now Valentin is not earning it. Personally I would like to see Valentin at lefty DH, cut daubach and put Tony G at short full time while bringing up Aaron Miles.

Maybe being jerked around has something to do with the poor performance. Maybe the slow starts had something to do with it. Did you know that as of a couple of days ago Gen. Disarray had used ninety-four different lineups. How can anybody know what their role on this team is?

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Glover is a very good reliever, just a lousy starter. There's no reason other then JM's incompetence that Glover doesn't have a larger role in the bullpen. He is pitching better as of late because he is getting a more defined role and not pitching once every 2 weeks.

Bob

At one point in June, Glover went nineteen days between appearances. Meanwhile Gen. Disarray is using his set-up man and closer (Marte and Gordon) two-innings (or more) at a time on a regular basis. The idiot is burning out his best arms and underusing one of the pitchers who could probably take some of the strain off them.

gogosoxgogo
07-28-2003, 08:22 PM
Although I agree with a bunch of the comments made by White, a man with an ERA over 6 is in no position to be complaining about the way that he is being used. He is lucky to even be pitching above AA at this point. He's in an even worse position to be complaining about the use of his teammates. If they have a problem with something, they can talk to management themselves. The main thing which makes me pissed off at White is that he went to the media. This is an issue which needs to be dealt with between White and JM. If Rick has a problem, he should go talk to Manuel, he should not be going behind his back to the media.

I said I agree with a lot of the things White said, I didn't mean everything. I agree that the lineup and spots in the batting order need more consistancy, but for the bullpen, I can understand why Manuel has needed to tinker. If he wanted to win games, the only thing he could do was to put guys into different roles than they supposedly had at the beginning of the year. Koch was supposed to dominate our closer role. If JM has not 'tinkered' and taken him out of that role on certain occasions, we would probably be under .500 at this point. There has been one guy out of the pen who has been consistantly able to get hitters out all year - Damaso Marte, and even he for a few games has a little trouble. At the beginning of the year, Flash was having difficulty, though he's definately turned things around. Wunsch (and his ERA barely scraping 1) going down with injuries was a major loss. Glover stunk it up until recently. Sanders was not ready for the big leagues. White himself should have been dropped on his fat ass except for that one good week he just had (which he has since lost). I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not so sure I would still want Koch in the closer role and White still in a semi-set up role throughout the entirity of the year... because that is exactly what would happen if JM didn't 'tinker'.

flo-B-flo
07-28-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by daver
Why in the world would you want to see Aaron Miles called up? To take TG's utility spot, lead off, and to see how a hall of fame 2b goes about doing things, as well as to see if he has the stuff for next year when R Alomar is on his way.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2003, 09:16 PM
Bottom line friends and neighbors is that at least some Sox players are sick of Manager Gandhi. Who knows how many more feel the same way but either can't or won't speak out about it (yet).

Lip

Daver
07-28-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by flo-B-flo
To take TG's utility spot, lead off, and to see how a hall of fame 2b goes about doing things, as well as to see if he has the stuff for next year when R Alomar is on his way.

You want a 27 year old minor leaguer with a bad glove,as well as a bad history with the bat,leading off for a team that still hopes to be in contention for the playoff's?

TRL
07-28-2003, 11:20 PM
Set roles are fine and dandy as long as the players are performing within those defined roles. We would have all shot ourselves by now if Koch was still the closer. The overuse of Marte and Gordon is due to necessity. Who else can close out a close game? Wunsch being back will help and could keep those two out of the game for at least an inning. I'd like to see Koch get back to being a reliable reliever but every time he gets in the game I can barely watch.

Our starters have consistently pitched well into the 7th inning and since our offense has struggled this year most games are within a few runs. Given this situation you go to your guys that close out games for you, Marte and Gordon. Kind of sounds like some defined roles to me. Sure it sucks for guys like Glover who don't get to pitch very often, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna be the one to start the Rick White for closer bandwagon.

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by TRL
Set roles are fine and dandy as long as the players are performing within those defined roles. We would have all shot ourselves by now if Koch was still the closer. The overuse of Marte and Gordon is due to necessity. Who else can close out a close game? Wunsch being back will help and could keep those two out of the game for at least an inning. I'd like to see Koch get back to being a reliable reliever but every time he gets in the game I can barely watch.

Our starters have consistently pitched well into the 7th inning and since our offense has struggled this year most games are within a few runs. Given this situation you go to your guys that close out games for you, Marte and Gordon. Kind of sounds like some defined roles to me. Sure it sucks for guys like Glover who don't get to pitch very often, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna be the one to start the Rick White for closer bandwagon.

And just how many games has Gen. Disarray really had to use either one of them for more than an inning?

doublem23
07-28-2003, 11:32 PM
Sorry, I still can't buy it. While White may not appreciate being in a "defined role," I still can't fathom that having such an enormously negative affect on one's pitching ability. Does anyone really think that White would be that much better if his role where more defined?

Here's a though, Rick. Stop sucking.

TornLabrum
07-29-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Sorry, I still can't buy it. While White may not appreciate being in a "defined role," I still can't fathom that having such an enormously negative affect on one's pitching ability. Does anyone really think that White would be that much better if his role where more defined?

Here's a though, Rick. Stop sucking.

Okay, here's the scoop, and anyone who listened to the pre-game show the other night, the day after White picked up his first win, can verify this:

Farmer noted in his pregame interview with White that at one point before he came in, there was one guy warming up, then two, then one, then two again, and then he said it looked as if there were three men up.

White confirmed. Manuel was getting guys up and sitting them down depending on the batters coming up, and what would happen if certain batters got on...okay so far...but then White said Manuel had forgotten to get someone up in case another certain batter might come up, so he had to rush to get the third guy warmed up.

White did not speak out of turn. To paraphrase Groucho Marx in "Duck Soup," Manuel may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot.

maurice
07-29-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by flo-B-flo
To take TG's utility spot, lead off, and to see how a hall of fame 2b goes about doing things, as well as to see if he has the stuff for next year when R Alomar is on his way.

Miles is not even the best potential major league 2B on the Sox AAA team. As for his prospects as a "utility" player, he only plays one position and doesn't play it very well.