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SoxFanDan
07-28-2003, 12:34 AM
is he the answer to third base. he is making me nervous

Meixner007
07-28-2003, 12:45 AM
the potential is there, but right now he looks absolutely lost. He has no clue what's going on. I say give TG some more p.t. until crede can figure out what's wrong.

VeeckAsInWreck
07-28-2003, 12:49 AM
Crede will be ok. His defense has been solid, but he is no Herbert Perry at the plate. He needs to lay off the outside pitches.

SoxFanDan
07-28-2003, 12:51 AM
can rowand play third, that would be great

lowesox
07-28-2003, 12:53 AM
I think Crede is a big confidence guy. Last year he went on quite a tear. And he looked awesome here for the first two weeks this season.

If we made the playoffs it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was one of our best playoff performers.

One day he'll be very, very good.

Risk
07-28-2003, 08:14 AM
I think Crede is in a sophmore slump. Didn't Ventura have a tough 2nd season in the bigs? I believe he did, yet he turned out to be one of the best third baseman we've had in the last couple of decades.

Risk

MarkEdward
07-28-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Risk
I think Crede is in a sophmore slump. Didn't Ventura have a tough 2nd season in the bigs? I believe he did, yet he turned out to be one of the best third baseman we've had in the last couple of decades.

Risk

In Ventura's second full season, he posted a .810 OPS at age 23.

I don't think we should be comparing Crede to Ventura anymore. At age 25, Crede is struggling in the majors. By age 25, Robin had established himself as a very good third baseman. I'm not saying Crede won't become anything, but he has a lot of work to do before catching up to Ventura.

Dan H
07-28-2003, 11:35 AM
The Sox need his defense especially with Valentin at short. But he looks terrible at the plate and his average has dipped into the .220's. Against the pitiful Devil Rays yesterday, Crede was one of the few Sox hitters not to take a good, healthy cut. This is more than a sophomore slump. Right now, he has yet to prove he can hit major league pitching.

RKMeibalane
07-28-2003, 11:52 AM
I think Crede will eventually become a good player, but time is running out. The way I see it, if he hasn't shown significant improvement by the All Star Break of next season, then the Sox need to consider the possibility of finding someone else to play third base. Crede is good enough to start for the White Sox for several years, but in order for this team to contend each and every year, they will need a productive third baseman.

A.T. Money
07-28-2003, 12:18 PM
Crede is fine. Please let's not expect him to do all the damage in this lineup. That's unfair. The big boppers need to do their jobs, and young guys like Crede will eventually fall into it.

MisterB
07-28-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
In Ventura's second full season, he posted a .810 OPS at age 23.

I don't think we should be comparing Crede to Ventura anymore. At age 25, Crede is struggling in the majors. By age 25, Robin had established himself as a very good third baseman. I'm not saying Crede won't become anything, but he has a lot of work to do before catching up to Ventura.

Funny how you say we shouldn't compare Crede to Ventura, and then you compare Crede to Ventura. :?:

Crede did well in 53 games last season. This season the league has adjusted to him, and now he's figuring out how to adjust to the adjustment. It's what every player has to do their first season or two in the majors. Ventura had to do it, and he was on a team that wasn't expected to do anything so there was less pressure. Crede's having to do it on a team with high expectations and more pressure.

All that having been said, I wouldn't mind seeing Graffanino getting some more time at third down the stretch.

Tragg
07-28-2003, 12:31 PM
This is his first full season. Give him a chance. Some players take a little longer to develop - not everyone is a 23 year old phenom.

doublem23
07-28-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
This is his first full season. Give him a chance. Some players take a little longer to develop - not everyone is a 23 year old phenom.

I agree... He puts some really good swings on balls; he's just got to do so more often. Let the kid play. Who the hell else would be there, anyway?

MarkEdward
07-28-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Funny how you say we shouldn't compare Crede to Ventura, and then you compare Crede to Ventura. :?:

Sorry about that. Let me clarify: what I meant to say is that we should stop expecting Crede to become the next Ventura.

Crede did well in 53 games last season. This season the league has adjusted to him, and now he's figuring out how to adjust to the adjustment. It's what every player has to do their first season or two in the majors. Ventura had to do it, and he was on a team that wasn't expected to do anything so there was less pressure. Crede's having to do it on a team with high expectations and more pressure.

Well, when Ventura struggled at the ages of 21 and 22. Crede is struggling at age 25. Big difference.

LASOXFAN
07-28-2003, 02:30 PM
He's not seeing many good pitches down there in the line up. I think he should start complaining, like Valentin, and hopefully gain a spot higher in the line up where he'll see more fastballs.

Seriously, I think he's streaky at this point in his career and wouldn't be surprised to see him go on a tear at some point (hopefully in September). Walker has said that he's very, very close.

MisterB
07-28-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, when Ventura struggled at the ages of 21 and 22. Crede is struggling at age 25. Big difference.

OK I'll clarify myself then: The difference is in age, not experience. Crede struggling at 25 would be a bigger difference if he had 3 full seasons of experience like Ventura did when he was 25. First season struggles are just that - it's a function of experience, not age.

You are correct that comparing Crede to Ventura career-wise is like apples and oranges, since Ventura was ahead of Crede's development curve. But it cuts both ways - if you can't use Ventura's career to prove that Crede will be good, you can't use it to prove he'll be bad, either.

D'Angelo F Death
07-28-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
The difference is in age, not experience

Good point. I've been driving myself crazy the past few days thinking that Aramis Ramirez is younger than Crede and is in the midst of his second 100-rbi season.

duke of dorwood
07-28-2003, 07:22 PM
He plays on my team-reminds me of Ventura defensivley with the effect he has on left side defense.

MarkEdward
07-28-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
OK I'll clarify myself then: The difference is in age, not experience. Crede struggling at 25 would be a bigger difference if he had 3 full seasons of experience like Ventura did when he was 25. First season struggles are just that - it's a function of experience, not age.


I don't know if I can buy that. Once again, Ventura had his struggles at age 23. Any normal major leaguer will struggle at 23. Joe Crede is struggling at age 25. Since he's closer to his natural peak, he should be hitting better than a 23 year old, no matter what kind of prior major league experience each one had (sorry if that sounded jumbled.

I do understand your point, however.

JJAustin69
07-28-2003, 11:14 PM
MLB is exceptionally thin at 3B these days. We are kind of stuck with Crede any way you slice it. All we can hope for is that he comes around. He showed flashes last year. We'll need some of that production again this year if we are going to get anywhere. When our 7,8,9 hitters are Valentin, Crede, and Olivo, they have been automatic outs all too often.

MisterB
07-29-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I don't know if I can buy that. Once again, Ventura had his struggles at age 23. Any normal major leaguer will struggle at 23. Joe Crede is struggling at age 25. Since he's closer to his natural peak, he should be hitting better than a 23 year old, no matter what kind of prior major league experience each one had (sorry if that sounded jumbled.

I do understand your point, however.

I guess my point is I expect a first year major leaguer to struggle regardless of age. The adjustment to the majors still has to be made. There are players older than 25 who never make that adjustment, and there are players under 25 who do. What you're implying is all 25 year olds should produce at the same level strictly because they're the same age. To use a ridiculous analogy, that's like saying a 25 year old with a high school education should be able to grasp quantum physics just because there are 25 year olds with doctorates who do. There is a learning curve involved that is seperate from a players physical ability.

BTW, can you name me a 'normal' major league hitter? :smile:

MarkEdward
07-29-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
I guess my point is I expect a first year major leaguer to struggle regardless of age.

As do I. Let me try this one more time: three years ago, Player A and Player B were drafted. Player A was 20 years old, while Player B was 22 years old. They both progress through the minor league system at the same rate, and both make it to the majors three years after draft day. Player A is now 23 and Player B is now 25. Each player's stats were similar in the minors. Now if I had to choose, I would say Player B would have a better first season than player A.

I agree that there are other factors to take into account other than age.


BTW, can you name me a 'normal' major league hitter? :smile:

Is this a trick question? Reggie Sanders, aside from the injuries, seems like a 'normal' player. Peak at 27, steady decline since then.

delben91
07-30-2003, 07:49 AM
Just as soon as you start to doubt him, he has a game like he did last night. I think that's the true potential of Joe Crede, now he just has to be consistent about it.

poorme
10-17-2003, 11:02 AM
Having just found this site a few weeks ago, I've been kind of surprised by all the criticism of Joe Crede I've seen. I think he's OK, and CHEAP and way down on the list of our problems.

washington
10-17-2003, 12:07 PM
The White Sox have many many bigger problems than Joe Crede. His defense at 3B was excellent all year, a welcome change from the Jose Valentin experiment. And for his first full-year tour through the league he wasn't bad, .261-19-75. His slugging percentage was low but overall he improved dramatically after the All Star break. It's true he's 25 but the Sox hampered his development by keeping him in the minors for long after he proved he was ready for the bigs

FarWestChicago
10-17-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by washington
It's true he's 25 but the Sox hampered his development by keeping him in the minors for long after he proved he was ready for the bigs :buddylee

Hey, I needed my PT. Screw Crede!

hold2dibber
10-17-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by washington
The White Sox have many many bigger problems than Joe Crede. His defense at 3B was excellent all year, a welcome change from the Jose Valentin experiment. And for his first full-year tour through the league he wasn't bad, .261-19-75. His slugging percentage was low but overall he improved dramatically after the All Star break. It's true he's 25 but the Sox hampered his development by keeping him in the minors for long after he proved he was ready for the bigs

I'm not sure that I agree that keeping him in the minors for too long hampered his development - it just meant tha the Sox didn't get the benefit of his play for too long. Crede was absolutely horse crap the first half of the year. I'm glad they stuck with him, because he is the real deal. At this point, my only real concern is that he may be a 1/2 year player (see Konerko, Paul or Baldwin, James for other examples) - but I'm cautiously optimistic that he'll put together a more consistent campaign in '04. While I don't think he'll ever be a MVP-caliber player, he'll be Ventura like - one of the best, occassional All-Star bid, solid, consistent, doesn't make waves.

ma-gaga
10-17-2003, 02:00 PM
Crede is not the problem with this team. He's young and learning. For all intensive purposes he's a 2nd year player. Give him a minimum of one more year, and realistically 2 seasons (mid 2005) before you start seeing the player he's going to become.

Look more towards getting a longterm solution at 2nd base and CF. I think the Sox have one too many "power" hitter, and need an OBP table setter. Maybe a defensive CF'er.

Too bad D'Angelo sucked.

34 Inch Stick
10-17-2003, 02:16 PM
Do not touch Crede or Olivo. Continue to play them everyday. Accept their mistakes for now and watch them grow. That is how you build an all star.

Intents and purposes!

StillMissOzzie
10-17-2003, 02:28 PM
I think too much focus and expectation was pointed at Crede when the likes of Konerko got off to such a pathetic start. If the veterans carry the share of the load that they're expected to, and PAID to, then I think Crede will come around.

:gulp:
SMO