PDA

View Full Version : Anyone notice Jimenez?


Gumshoe
07-24-2003, 04:24 PM
I mentioned it at the time, I will mention it again. Jimenez was a mistake to get rid of when you could have just dropped Harris' punk a$$ to AAA. Who would you rather have coming off the bench? I just can't believe you know anything about baseball if you say Harris. Jimenez is so much more versatile. He'll end up being a good player in the league. After today, (0-5) he's still batting .328. What's Harris hitting?

Now, you give JM the option to use a guy who just flat out isn't that good. I'd rather have Jimenez at 2B and Rowand in CF every day of the week than to think about Willie. Willie can run. Big deal. So can Tom Goodwin. So can a lot of guys with little baseball skills.

Gumshoe

voodoochile
07-24-2003, 04:27 PM
Oh who cares...

seventytwo
07-24-2003, 04:32 PM
Gumshoe, you could hit .328 in the Great American Smallpark.

I haven't given Angelo Jimenez a second thought since we sent him packing.

bobj4400
07-24-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh who cares...


AGREED!

fledgedrallycap
07-24-2003, 04:41 PM
Come on, man. Did you watch Jiminez out there making one mental fart after another. Don't look in the rear-view mirror. We have a future hall-of-famer out there at second base and Willie Harris brings a lot more to the table than DJ.

voodoochile
07-24-2003, 04:41 PM
Just for the record, his OPS since the ASB is .703...

baseballboy
07-24-2003, 04:46 PM
Agreed, who cares about the 25th man. whoop dee f'n doo! When he was here he sucked and that is something everyone noticed. He didn't show any baseball skills when he was here. I don't watch many reds games so can't say I relaly notice his everyday baseball skills, such as running the bases and fielding. Glad you can find the time to do that gumshoe.

Hangar18
07-24-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Just for the record, his OPS since the ASB is .703...

.703 ??? damn. I'll bet the change of venue, along with
the Kick in the Pants, got that Bozo going. I just wish we
couldve gotten something a little better for him. or is this
Pitcher Dunn really going to help us in the future ? hope so.

dickallen15
07-24-2003, 05:17 PM
He also started out fast while he was here. Its just a matter of time before he loses interest, and the Reds will be looking for someone to take him off their hands. He is maybe the dumbest baseball player I have ever seen.

hold2dibber
07-24-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
.703 ??? damn. I'll bet the change of venue, along with
the Kick in the Pants, got that Bozo going. I just wish we
couldve gotten something a little better for him. or is this
Pitcher Dunn really going to help us in the future ? hope so.

A .703 OPS is very bad.

TheRockinMT
07-24-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
He also started out fast while he was here. Its just a matter of time before he loses interest, and the Reds will be looking for someone to take him off their hands. He is maybe the dumbest baseball player I have ever seen.

Point well taken... DJ started good here and everyone was saying how he was making the Sox forget Ray Durham. Well, Ray-Ray is still producing and Jimenez quit after a month or so. He will most likely do the same for the Reds unless the trade was a wake up call for him.

hold2dibber
07-24-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I mentioned it at the time, I will mention it again. Jimenez was a mistake to get rid of when you could have just dropped Harris' punk a$$ to AAA. Who would you rather have coming off the bench? I just can't believe you know anything about baseball if you say Harris. Jimenez is so much more versatile. He'll end up being a good player in the league. After today, (0-5) he's still batting .328. What's Harris hitting?

Now, you give JM the option to use a guy who just flat out isn't that good. I'd rather have Jimenez at 2B and Rowand in CF every day of the week than to think about Willie. Willie can run. Big deal. So can Tom Goodwin. So can a lot of guys with little baseball skills.

Gumshoe

I agree that the Sox shouldn't have dumped Jimenez, although I disagree with your statement that he is "much more versatile" than Harris (DJ only plays one position and his only real skill is hitting; Harris can play multiple positions and he has two skills - running and bunting). I don't think it matters much for this year, because either one of those guys would have been the no. 25 guy on the 25 man roster. But the Sox will miss Jimenez next year, when Harris, Miles and Hummel are competing for the 2B job. Yikes.

Gumshoe
07-24-2003, 05:57 PM
How is he not more versatile? Jimenez can hit for average. He can hit for power. Harris can't play any position on the field better than guys we already have, and he canNOT play as good a 2B as Jimenez. All Harris has is speed. If you disagree, look at his avg. You think Jimenez is bad? WH avg. is paltry - and he doesn't walk either.

Sorry for bringing it back up. But you'll see it next year. It'll bite us in the arse. A new manager would have done wonders for DJ.

Gumshoe

fquaye149
07-24-2003, 06:15 PM
willie don't make no errors at 2b...and if he do it dont' be lazy errors.

dude, i could go play in cincy and hit .250. look at hose (guillen). lousy lousy lousy, lo and behold, 20 bombs this year. come on man, get over it. willie has a lot more upside then a lazy player who dogged us and probably reached his peak at the beginning of this year...

and oh by the way, dj sure as dog(crap) doesn't walk much either.

harwar
07-24-2003, 06:24 PM
I see nothing but high promise in Willie Harris.When he learns to work the count and bunt he''ll be on base all the time and blinding speed doesn't hurt.Hes' so far superior to jimenez that it just makes me laugh.Hes' going to make a fine second baseman.

gosox3072
07-24-2003, 06:28 PM
The reason harris is still on the team and jiminez is in cincinatti is b/c of harris's speed. Who would you rather have at first when you are down by one and have no one else on and need a stolen base. I dont see harris getting many more ab's this year, he will mostly pinch run.

Daver
07-24-2003, 06:40 PM
Look up the word "Lazy" in the dictionary,there will be a picture of Jiminez next to it.

doublem23
07-24-2003, 06:57 PM
While I agree I'd rather have Jimenez than Harris, the difference is so marginal it doesn't matter.

baseballboy
07-24-2003, 07:01 PM
I couldn't agree with all you guys more. Jimenez is a bum. Harris will be a fine 2nd baseman. Plus who is to say we wont sign alomar for another year just to teach the young harris. Harris is far superior defensively than Jimenez. Plus he is a much better baserunner. There are your baseball skills. Once he learns to work the count he will be a fine player. By looking at his minor league numbers he can obviously handle the bat. I think he will make a fine leadoff hitter for us in the future. Plus I think he is the fastest man I have ever seen play, ever! Tom Goodwin is not!

MarkEdward
07-24-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Just for the record, his OPS since the ASB is .703...

And since joining the Reds his OPS is .867. What's your point?

baseballboy
07-24-2003, 07:15 PM
Hmm, I guess his point is he is already coming back down to his usual mediocre self. Or maybe it is that Jimenez just isnt very good.

RKMeibalane
07-24-2003, 07:18 PM
Can we just stop talking about D'Angelo Jimenez? I'm sick of reading his name on this board. He has a lot of talent, but he also has the baseball knowledge of five-year-old.

voodoochile
07-24-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
And since joining the Reds his OPS is .867. What's your point?

That small sample sizes don't mean crap...

His OBP is actually BELOW is AVG since the ASG. Just thought it was a fun stat...

WhiteSox = Life
07-24-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Sorry for bringing it back up. But you'll see it next year. It'll bite us in the arse. A new manager would have done wonders for DJ.

Gumshoe

Okay. Let's just see what happens next year. For now, let's just stay in the present and very, very near future. Life is much easier if you do it that way.

:smile:

Gumshoe
07-24-2003, 07:51 PM
I just hate it when Manuel plays Willie ... that's what most of my frustration surrounds. It also is the undue criticism that DJ got. Manuel and his coaches are as much to blame. Olivo made probably MORE baserunning mistakes than DJ and DJ still got more complaints. People just chose to remember those moments. In any case, I'm done. Just let Willie Harris be the Chone Figgins of last year's Anaheim (remember him? -- I can't believe I remembered his name!) and that's OK.

Gumshoe

Brian26
07-24-2003, 09:32 PM
Gumshoe,

No offense, but you're an idiot.

You're going to blame Manuel and the coaching staff for Jiminez' baserunning and fielding errors? That's beyond absurd.

DJ was lazy and dumb, and that won't change.

Now go away. The AOL White Sox board is looking for you.

duke of dorwood
07-24-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Agreed, who cares about the 25th man. whoop dee f'n doo! When he was here he sucked and that is something everyone noticed. He didn't show any baseball skills when he was here. I don't watch many reds games so can't say I relaly notice his everyday baseball skills, such as running the bases and fielding. Glad you can find the time to do that gumshoe.

And by the way, a team with a 25 th man contributing, will be a winning team

voodoochile
07-24-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
And by the way, a team with a 25 th man contributing, will be a winning team

Only if they don't have to contribute too often. I mean there is a reason they are the 25th man - there are 24 BETTER players on the team...

WhiteSox = Life
07-24-2003, 09:46 PM
:jerry
"In my book, the 25th man is just as important as the number 1 guy. I mean, maybe not skills-wise, but everybody has feelings, you know."

Jjav829
07-24-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by daver
Look up the word "Lazy" in the dictionary,there will be a picture of Jiminez next to it.

Actually there would have been, but he was too lazy to show up for the photo shoot. :smile:

RKMeibalane
07-24-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Actually there would have been, but he was too lazy to show up for the photo shoot. :smile:

That's pretty good.

Jjav829
07-24-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That's pretty good.

I'm leaving for the night. Going out on top like George Costanza. :smile:

baseballboy
07-24-2003, 10:17 PM
I can't believe you keep comparing him to Olivo. Yes Olivo makes baserunnig errors, no doubt about it. However, he has a canon for an arm and calls a really good game. He is a big part of why our team ERA is so low. It is idiotic to complain about the 25th man on our roster in the first place, but to compare Olivo and Jimenez is extremely idiotic. Jimenez didn't help this team in one area. If all he did was make baserunning errors but was at least average in the field and above average hitting then he would be Carlos Lee and you wouldn't hear any complaints about him. Unfortunately for you he wasn't good in any single area and he was traded for Dunn. WHOOP DEE DOO!

Daver
07-24-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I can't believe you keep comparing him to Olivo. Yes Olivo makes baserunnig errors, no doubt about it. However, he has a canon for an arm and calls a really good game. He is a big part of why our team ERA is so low. It is idiotic to complain about the 25th man on our roster in the first place, but to compare Olivo and Jimenez is extremely idiotic. Jimenez didn't help this team in one area. If all he did was make baserunning errors but was at least average in the field and above average hitting then he would be Carlos Lee and you wouldn't hear any complaints about him. Unfortunately for you he wasn't good in any single area and he was traded for Dunn. WHOOP DEE DOO!

Olivo doesn't call the game,Joe Nosseck does,unless Bartolo is pitching.

baseballboy
07-24-2003, 10:33 PM
Very true Daver, my bad. However, Olivo compared to Jimenez is a ridiculous one nonetheless.

Gumshoe
07-24-2003, 11:08 PM
RE: your arguments on the Foulke / Koch deal, I can never respect your opinion as a Sox critic. Sorry. I said I was done talking about Jimenez. If you don't see that the Koch deal was one of the worst in a LONG time for ANY team, then I can't expect you to see my points.

Gumshoe

baseballboy
07-24-2003, 11:58 PM
First of all, the worst of any team in a long time? Who did the Yankees get for Lowell? Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell? Alfonsucky and Clement for Dontrelle Willis? Those are just 3 I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure there are plenty more.

2nd, I can't see how you can respect anyone since you respect Foulke. Here is a guy that complained about his role as a closer because he wanted to be a starter. Umm, excuse me Foulke, you were made a closer because you stunk as a starter! Then when he was removed from the closers role, he wasnt even trying to fight for it again. He said he never asked for the job or ever wanted the job as a closer. I cant respect someone like that. If you can't see that kiddo then you are a complete fool. I never once heard you argue those points about Foulke. All you did was point to the numbers. Well sometimes numbers are not all you need to know about a player. I also can remember many big games against Seattle, Minnesota, and the Yankees that Foulke couldn't handle the job. When the pressue is on in big games Foulke dissappears.

Plus how can you judge a trade from one year? Is Foulke going to be with the A's next year? No, I doubt it. Is Koch going to be here? Most likely we are stuck with him. Can he return to form? Sure its possible.

You are so quick to judge because you are a Kenny Williams/Jerry Reinsdorf/Jerry Manuel hater. You like almost nothing about this team and I wish I knew why the hell you call yourself a White Sox fan. I am ashamed to have fans like you rooting for my team. You are the kind of people that give our fan base a bad name. You are the type that make people categorize us as whiners, pessimists, and complainers. Never happy with anything. I'm so sick of that crap.

jeremyb1
07-25-2003, 12:28 AM
first of all, i know that espn and i believe most other sites list second half or "post all-star game" stats as the last 81 games of the season not the players production after the asg. since the all-star break jimenez's ops is whatever the figure was with cincinatti.

regardless, whoever said a .703 ops is terribe should certainly take note of the fact that harris' ops is .500 over 296 career at bats and .448 in 109 ab's this season. harris has had at least a few crucial at bats since jimenez was designated for assignment and regardless of whether or not he has been used, the team has been hurt by the fact that jimenez's bat has not been available off the bench. right now either alomar or valentin both of whom have sub .500 ops's against lefties is in the lineup every time we face a left handed pitcher. jimenez's ops against lefties is .711 which while it isn't spectacular, it ruthian compared to jose and robbie vs. lefties. most importantly, even if harris doesn't hurt us off the bench this season and jimenez couldn't help us that much, who is our starting 2B next season? anyone who wants to play a guy with a .448 ops because they think jimenez is lazy apparently places hatred of jimenez over loyalty to the sox.

and finally to address the arguments about jimenez's character which fill this thread, lets examine the facts: klesko called him lazy, the trib reported one unnamed sox player agreed, and kenny called his mistakes troublesome. it should be noted that players such as maggs and valentin stated jimenez worked well in the clubhouse and they did not question his dedication. now, even if jimenez is a lazy player with a poor attitude which is not known to definately be true as some have assumed, that does not necessarily mean that he struggled when he did with the sox solely because of his laziness. who's to say that jimenez is an incredibly gifted player that who can succeed despite his laziness yet he simply had a bad slump for a month and a half? there are two factors here 1) there have been reports that jimenez is lazy and 2) he hit poorly the last month he was with the team. that assume that jimenez is without a doubt lazy and that this laziness is the one and only cause of his slump and will prevent him from ever being a productive major leaguer (or simply that willy ".448 ops" harris) in the near future, is not fair.

ScottyTheSoxFan
07-25-2003, 12:50 AM
jimenez is gone!!! he isnt coming back - quit whining about how we couldve/shouldve/wouldve kept him. it was decided he would be dealt, and he was. end of discussion . enough of the past, move to the present

and dont compare harris and dj. dj was our starting second basemen and harris is not. kw or jerry thought harris would be better off the bench than jimenez. how do you know dj would be putting up his new numbers coming off the bench for us. I know i do not want jimenez pinch running late in a game and getting picked off.

jeremyb1
07-25-2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
jimenez is gone!!! he isnt coming back - quit whining about how we couldve/shouldve/wouldve kept him. it was decided he would be dealt, and he was. end of discussion . enough of the past, move to the present

and dont compare harris and dj. dj was our starting second basemen and harris is not. kw or jerry thought harris would be better off the bench than jimenez. how do you know dj would be putting up his new numbers coming off the bench for us. I know i do not want jimenez pinch running late in a game and getting picked off.

well personally i don't see why just because a move has been made, its no longer open for discussion. i still hear the kip wells and david wells deals amongst others discussed on a regular basis. past moves have current reporcutions on our team so i think they're important to discuss.

there's no reason harris and dj can't be compared. harris has been given regular playing time. he was the starting centerfielder for two weeks when he was called up before he was hurt. he also played about a week and a half or two weeks starting at second base, at no point did he hit. i'm not arguing dj would be hitting as well as he is for the reds coming off our bench but i think his numbers demonstrate he's an infinately better offensive player than harris and therefore would be more valuable than harris on the bench.

the fact that harris has speed does not automatically make him an excellent bench player. do you really think he's going to score dozens of runs for us that we wouldn't otherwise score with his baserunning in pinch running situations? that requires first for harris to be used in as a pinch hitter in a situation in which the runner has the chance to advance at all and then for him to score in a situation where a slower runner would not score. consider how often pinch runners are even used. harris only has the potential to serve a purpose as a pinch hitter once every close game. that potential isn't reached if he's brought in and isn't advanced such as tonight or if we hit a homerun or score in some other manner that doesn't require a pinch runner. also, do you honestly believe that because jimenez had two or three basrunning blunders in 80 games for us this season he'd cost us many opportunities to win games as a pinch runner? all these arguments are based on some prejudice against the type of mistakes jimenez made and not how often he made them or their ultimate effect on the team.

MarkEdward
07-25-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That small sample sizes don't mean crap...


So why'd you even bring it up? :)

Edit: since coming to the Sox, Alomar's OPS is .745 and Everett's OPS is .667. Remember, however, these are based on very small sample sizes.

voodoochile
07-25-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So why'd you even bring it up? :)

Edit: since coming to the Sox, Alomar's OPS is .745 and Everett's OPS is .667. Remember, however, these are based on very small sample sizes.

Because the Reds sample size is small. Let's see how he finishes the season before declaring the move a bad one.

This is the third time this guy has been traded for peanuts. That is not a small sample size by major league standards.

Stats don't tell the whole picture with him.

Gumshoe
07-25-2003, 11:24 AM
Olivo cost us HUGE again by getting picked off. I like him, but no one ever says to release him and he's made FAR more mistakes than DJ did. That's all I'm saying.

Gumshoe

ps- Brian, I suppose I'm not supposed to take offense to that. Just tell me that you disagree, you don't have to call me names. I'm quite sure that I know as much or more about this team than you do. Is Willie Harris still stealing first base? Boy, I'm glad he's on the team instead of Jimenez. Sheesh.

ScottyTheSoxFan
07-25-2003, 11:38 AM
Harris was kept over Jimenez also because he can play outfield. Jimenez was an infielder, Harris is more versataile. Technically, Jimenez should be compared to Robbie Alomar instead of Harris. Harris didnt replace DJ, Alomar did. Have fun with that comparison.

voodoochile
07-25-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Olivo cost us HUGE again by getting picked off. I like him, but no one ever says to release him and he's made FAR more mistakes than DJ did. That's all I'm saying.

Gumshoe

ps- Brian, I suppose I'm not supposed to take offense to that. Just tell me that you disagree, you don't have to call me names. I'm quite sure that I know as much or more about this team than you do. Is Willie Harris still stealing first base? Boy, I'm glad he's on the team instead of Jimenez. Sheesh.

2 things...

1)Olivo's mistake didn't cost the Sox huge - because they won the game.

2)Name calling is never acceptable. If it continues, there will be reprecussions. Let's keep it civil, people...

Gumshoe
07-25-2003, 11:53 AM
Sorry I brought the thread up. It just ticks the heck out of me when I see Willie Harris up there bringing nothing to the table, meanwhile we trade Jimenez and Rowand barely gets a shot.

The sox will have every chance to come back in this race. Will Manuel make the right decisions? That's the question. Will he handle the bullpen? Will he stick with a lineup? I hope we can back into the playoffs ...

Gumshoe

Hangar18
07-25-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy


Plus how can you judge a trade from one year? Is Foulke going to be with the A's next year? No, I doubt it. Is Koch going to be here? Most likely we are stuck with him. Can he return to form? Sure its possible.

You are the kind of people that give our fan base a bad name. You are the type that make people categorize us as whiners, pessimists, and complainers. Never happy with anything. I'm so sick of that crap.

Heres My PREDICTION 7/25/03. The Cubs, always loving anything/everything SOX related, will sign Keith Foulke next
year. Its not the Fans that give us this pessimist, complainer tag.....its The CHICAGO MEDIA.

maurice
07-25-2003, 02:27 PM
For the record, I was in favor of dumping Jimenez, since he appeared to have a serious attitude problem. That said, there is little doubt that Jimenez (or Rowand) is capable of hitting .250 or better at the major league level. If Harris pulled that off, I'd be shocked -- SHOCKED, I say.

Nobody would be happier than me if Harris starts to hit and becomes an adequate ML 2B. However, lots of guys hit in the minors but can't hit at the ML level. Harris appears to be one of those unfortunate players.

Tragg
07-25-2003, 02:32 PM
There are simply more serious and significant Kenny Williams moments to lament than the Jiminez trade, so why get so excited about it?

WinningUgly!
07-25-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Because the Reds sample size is small. Let's see how he finishes the season before declaring the move a bad one.

This is the third time this guy has been traded for peanuts. That is not a small sample size by major league standards.

Stats don't tell the whole picture with him.

The one stat that jumps out at me since Jimenez joined the Reds is 4-10. The Reds have 4 wins against the mighty Brewers since DJ came along & 10 losses against everybody else they've played.

Jimenez could very well put everything together & become a solid everyday major leaguer, but I just don't see him as the type of guy who would have accepted a role on this team as a guy coming off of the bench let alone be successful in that role. He couldn't even keep his head in the game as a regular starter! Who knows? Either way...good riddance.

Gumshoe
07-25-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Heres My PREDICTION 7/25/03. The Cubs, always loving anything/everything SOX related, will sign Keith Foulke next
year. Its not the Fans that give us this pessimist, complainer tag.....its The CHICAGO MEDIA.


Foulke let it be known that he hated the Cubs while he was here. He won't go there. As for the quote that Hangar had above, baseball boy has got to be crazy. HOw can we gauge the trade from 1 year? Outside of Bagwell / Larry Andersen, this is the worst trade that I can remember in Modern History. Foulke dominates, while Koch gets dominated. Have you ever seen as big a difference in performance than in this trade example? I haven't.

Gumshoe

Ventura23Fan
07-25-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
The one stat that jumps out at me since Jimenez joined the Reds is 4-10. The Reds have 4 wins against the mighty Brewers since DJ came along & 10 losses against everybody else they've played.

Since acquiring Jimenez the Reds are now 4-11, a .267 win percentage compared with their overall win percentage of .436. Since acquiring R. Alomar the Sox are 11-8, a .579 win percentage compared with their overall win percentage of .510. Coincidence?

Tragg
07-25-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Outside of Bagwell / Larry Andersen, this is the worst trade that I can remember in Modern History. Foulke dominates, while Koch gets dominated. Have you ever seen as big a difference in performance than in this trade example? I haven't.

Gumshoe
Does rick wise for steve carlton count as modern history? I was in my formative years then.
The other thing to remember is that free agency always mixes up in this and the issue is probably losing foulke for 1 year. Jerry is not signing a closer to big money, and i don't disagree with that one.

jeremyb1
07-25-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
Since acquiring Jimenez the Reds are now 4-11, a .267 win percentage compared with their overall win percentage of .436. Since acquiring R. Alomar the Sox are 11-8, a .579 win percentage compared with their overall win percentage of .510. Coincidence?

yes. i'd be pretty suprised if robbie has magical powers that allows teams he's on to be over .500 while jimenez automatically drags them down despite the fact that his production has been as good as robbie's. everyone has talked about small sample sizes in this thread and this is the ultimate example. considering the fact that there are 24 other players on each roster, the team's record over 19 games has very little to do with those two players most likely.

WhiteSoxWinner
07-25-2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Foulke let it be known that he hated the Cubs while he was here. He won't go there.

Ahhh, but money has a way of overcoming that.

MarkEdward
07-25-2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Ventura23Fan
Since acquiring Jimenez the Reds are now 4-11, a .267 win percentage compared with their overall win percentage of .436. Since acquiring R. Alomar the Sox are 11-8, a .579 win percentage compared with their overall win percentage of .510. Coincidence?

It couldn't be because the Reds have the worst starting pitchers in the majors.

Nah, must be DJ's fault.

Effigy
07-27-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
It couldn't be because the Reds have the worst starting pitchers in the majors.

Nah, must be DJ's fault. Exactly.

We did however just get 2 back to back complete games. Heh. :o:

Back to DJ. 16 Games with the Reds, heres my "overview".

He has reached base in all 16 games.

He had a 15 game hitting streak snapped last night. He got hit by the pitch in the lower neck/shoulder area in his first at bat, but he played the rest of the game and went 0-5. He's getting the day off today. He's probally bruised.

So far, I have seen zero mental mistakes. He has actually showed some very good range and great defense at 2nd.

Considering we gave up an overaged minor league relief pitcher for DJ, I am very happy. I understand the trends with DJ could appear sooner or later, but so far - so good.

So for all you DJ haters, go ahead and reply .. "just wait!`111" ... because if that makes you tingle inside, then so be it.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-27-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Effigy
Exactly.

We did however just get 2 back to back complete games. Heh. :o:

Back to DJ. 16 Games with the Reds, heres my "overview".

He has reached base in all 16 games.

He had a 15 game hitting streak snapped last night. He got hit by the pitch in the lower neck/shoulder area in his first at bat, but he played the rest of the game and went 0-5. He's getting the day off today. He's probally bruised.

So far, I have seen zero mental mistakes. He has actually showed some very good range and great defense at 2nd.

Considering we gave up an overaged minor league relief pitcher for DJ, I am very happy. I understand the trends with DJ could appear sooner or later, but so far - so good.

So for all you DJ haters, go ahead and reply .. "just wait!`111" ... because if that makes you tingle inside, then so be it.

You know what is funny about this thread? I'm not aware of a single person who has suggested the Sox should have given up on Tony Graffanino, Aaron Rowand, or the worst pitcher on the roster. All the angst over giving up on Jimenez revolves around KEEPING Willie Harris after acquiring Alomar and Everett. Rios and one other ballplayer HAD to go to get back to 25.

Thus NOBODY is debating this obvious point: the fight boils down to whether Jimenez was our 25th man or our 26th man!!! For the really deep thinkers, optioning Harris to Charlotte could keep both... for what real purpose? If the Sox are suckers for giving up on Jimenez, they'll be joined by San Diego and the Yankees for rights to wearing the dunce cap. He is already a three-time loser. How's that for a young prospect?

Finally, I can understand a pathetic Cincinnati Reds fan coming onto a Sox board trying to gloat about trading for a ballplayer who was literally hours away from being given his unconditional release. What I can't understand is some of the most twisted logic ever pitched on this board to debate who is the 25th or 26th man on the roster.

So here is my recommendation when the rest of you finally tire of this nonsense. Let's get a good fight going over our previous 25th-man ballplayers. Brian Simmons, Jeff Abbott, and Kevin Beirne. Which of these guys was the key ingredient to our previous championship quests?

Meanwhile let's keep this thread going. Woo hoo!!!

WillieHarris12
07-27-2003, 06:13 PM
Alomar is hitting .304 with 3 steals for us. Plus he hustles and plays defense. I think we can do without Jimenez's bat. PLUS Harris is faster than anyone on the White Sox and we need him to run for us, which Jimenez couldn't ever do well.

MarkEdward
07-27-2003, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
[B]You know what is funny about this thread? I'm not aware of a single person who has suggested the Sox should have given up on Tony Graffanino, Aaron Rowand, or the worst pitcher on the roster.

Tony Graffanino has hit well enough to stay on team, and he can play three infield positions well. Rowand can play three outfield positions and is hitting better. If sending Sanders down meant keeping Jimenez on the team, I would've been in favor of that.

Thus NOBODY is debating this obvious point: the fight boils down to whether Jimenez was our 25th man or our 26th man!!!

He didn't have to be a 25th man. He could've played against lefties, because Alomar is a terrible hitter against lefties.

Finally, I can understand a pathetic Cincinnati Reds fan coming onto a Sox board trying to gloat about trading for a ballplayer who was literally hours away from being given his unconditional release.

Um, why is he pathetic? Because he's happy that DJ's succeeding? Because he's giving us an update on a former player? We don't have to resort to name-calling here.

Gumshoe
07-27-2003, 08:19 PM
The point of my posts have never been that Alomar was a bad move. I liked the move. Everett, on the other hand, I didn't. And I posted many times that Rowand can be as good as he showed today. Maybe not great, but solid full time, and better than EVerett defensively.

Jimenez is a good infield player who can really hit. If you think that any player next year that we'll have the option to play regularly will be better, I think you are kidding yourself. WHarris is not and never will be the ballplayer Jimenez is. Fine, he can run, but I can go hire a track star that can hit .199

Given the options to keep DJ, we should have kept him. That's all I've been saying.

Gumshoe

PaleHoseGeorge
07-27-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
...Um, why is he pathetic? Because he's happy that DJ's succeeding? Because he's giving us an update on a former player? We don't have to resort to name-calling here.

HUH???

What name did I call him, a Cincinnati Reds fan? Boy, that's mean!

Coming to a Sox board specifically to brag about trading for a guy hours away from being released from organized baseball fits my definition of pathetic behavior.

For the record Mark, "pathetic" is an adjective, not a name. :whiner:

Daver
07-27-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
The point of my posts have never been that Alomar was a bad move. I liked the move. Everett, on the other hand, I didn't. And I posted many times that Rowand can be as good as he showed today. Maybe not great, but solid full time, and better than EVerett defensively.



Everett is not here for his defense,he is here to be a left handed power hitter,Aaron Rowand is no more than,and never will be more than,a 4th outfielder,and his defense in center sucks almost as bad as Everett's.

jeremyb1
07-27-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
[B]
Thus NOBODY is debating this obvious point: the fight boils down to whether Jimenez was our 25th man or our 26th man!!! For the really deep thinkers, optioning Harris to Charlotte could keep both... for what real purpose? If the Sox are suckers for giving up on Jimenez, they'll be joined by San Diego and the Yankees for rights to wearing the dunce cap. He is already a three-time loser. How's that for a young prospect?[/B ]

kinda like how i'm sure the blue jays don't mind giving up on loaiza since texas and pittsburg did the same?

this boils down to a lot more than our 25th man. as was already mentioned, jimenez could be helping this team immensely if he were starting against lefties instead of jose and more importantly, this is likely an issue of who our starting second basemen is next season. don't tell me harris vs. jimenez makes no difference when harris very well may now get 500+ at bats for us next season.

chisoxfan79
07-27-2003, 10:21 PM
I can not believe there is a person on this planet that would defend DJ. He is the dumbest player I have ever watched he has no range at second. He is the worst baserunner ever (remember the game against Arizona) a very lazy fielder remember the botched double play against the Cubs where he tried to barehand it and dropped it. this guy made routine plays look difficult to make. Willie harris may not have a bright future as a major league regular but he was a better option than jimenez because he is a better baserunner and is better fundamentally. But then again I've seen little leaguers with better fundamentals

voodoochile
07-27-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
kinda like how i'm sure the blue jays don't mind giving up on loaiza since texas and pittsburg did the same?

this boils down to a lot more than our 25th man. as was already mentioned, jimenez could be helping this team immensely if he were starting against lefties instead of jose and more importantly, this is likely an issue of who our starting second basemen is next season. don't tell me harris vs. jimenez makes no difference when harris very well may now get 500+ at bats for us next season.

Now you want him at SS? Where he has again, not played all year? Why is it that you assume he can just suit up and play any position just because he has a solid bat?

Daver
07-27-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Now you want him at SS? Where he has again, not played all year? Why is it that you assume he can just suit up and play any position just because he has a solid bat?

Because the stats say he should be in the lineup,never mind the fact that he doesn't have the ability to play the position damnit,he puts up good numbers and that is all that counts.

This ain't fantasy baseball folks.

MarkEdward
07-28-2003, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
HUH???

What name did I call him, a Cincinnati Reds fan? Boy, that's mean!

Coming to a Sox board specifically to brag about trading for a guy hours away from being released from organized baseball fits my definition of pathetic behavior.

Um, I don't see any bragging in his post. He was just pointing out DJ's progress since coming to the Reds. Since he is a Reds' fan (and I assume he watches most of their games), he could give us the best indication of how well Jimenez is playing. And according to Effigy, he seems to be doing fine.

For the record Mark, "pathetic" is an adjective, not a name. :whiner:

Semantics.

jeremyb1
07-28-2003, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by daver
Because the stats say he should be in the lineup,never mind the fact that he doesn't have the ability to play the position damnit,he puts up good numbers and that is all that counts.

This ain't fantasy baseball folks.

uhh, tony graffanino plays shortstop. we currently start graffinino at second base for alomar against lefties with jose at short. if jimenez were to play instead of valentin obviously graff would shift over to short. why would graff play second and jimenez play shortstop?

VeeckAsInWreck
07-28-2003, 02:14 AM
Boys and Girls, I hate to break up the fun, but he is gone and will never be back! PRAISE THE LORD!

Let us never speak of D'Angelo ever again!

TommyJohn
07-28-2003, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Outside of Bagwell / Larry Andersen, this is the worst trade that I can remember in Modern History.

Gumshoe

Really? Personally, I think that Czechoslovakia to Hitler in
exchange for "Peace In Our Time" is the worst trade that
I can remember in Modern History.

A close number two would be Brock for Broglio.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-28-2003, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Semantics.

Semantics or facts. I don't mind seeing how far you're willing to rationalize it.

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by TommyJohn
Really? Personally, I think that Czechoslovakia to Hitler in
exchange for "Peace In Our Time" is the worst trade that
I can remember in Modern History.

A close number two would be Brock for Broglio.

Or Rafael Palmeiro for Mitch Williams.

(Continuing the thread which for no apparent reason refuses to die.)

voodoochile
07-28-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
uhh, tony graffanino plays shortstop. we currently start graffinino at second base for alomar against lefties with jose at short. if jimenez were to play instead of valentin obviously graff would shift over to short. why would graff play second and jimenez play shortstop?

Well thanks for clarifying. I think anything that allows Manuel more tinkering options is dumb, period. Limit his options and the team plays better - as proven these past 11 days.

You cannot judge every option exclusively by the numbers. It isn't good for the team, but thanks for clarifying. Your original post had me confused.

MarkEdward
07-28-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Semantics or facts. I don't mind seeing how far you're willing to rationalize it.

Yes, you're right. Pathetic is an adjective. Still doesn't mean the actual poster was pathetic, though.

TornLabrum
07-28-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yes, you're right. Pathetic is an adjective. Still doesn't mean the actual poster was pathetic, though.

This is correct. Many of us (okay...I) often say idiotic things in our posts, but I don't think they are diots.

D'Angelo F Death
07-28-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Or Rafael Palmeiro for Mitch Williams.

(Continuing the thread which for no apparent reason refuses to die.)

Palmeiro and Jamie Moyer for Mitch Williams.

Aah!

DirtySouthsider
07-28-2003, 07:08 PM
D.J. may look good from a distance but I remember watching him everyday and he scared the hell outta me! The box scores don't always show everything..........he is a VERY dumb lazy player. Let's check back in with him in a month and have this discussion again!

TommyJohn
07-28-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Or Rafael Palmeiro for Mitch Williams.

(Continuing the thread which for no apparent reason refuses to die.)

I wasn't going to post anything, but when I saw that bit of
hyperbole about the "worst trade in modern history" I just
couldn't resist.

Gumshoe
07-29-2003, 12:49 PM
The palmeiro / Williams trade was NOWHERE near as bad as Koch/Foulke. The cubs had Grace already and Williams was instrumental that season as the Cubs closer. Remember, this is a trade where one guy (KOCH) sucks worse than most everyone else in the league, and the other is an all star that is among the best in the league. Furthermore, what do the Sox need? BULLPEN help. The cubs didn't give up a player to create a weakness. They addressed something and they already had Grace.

Gumshoe

Randar68
07-29-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
The palmeiro / Williams trade was NOWHERE near as bad as Koch/Foulke. The cubs had Grace already and Williams was instrumental that season as the Cubs closer. Remember, this is a trade where one guy (KOCH) sucks worse than most everyone else in the league, and the other is an all star that is among the best in the league. Furthermore, what do the Sox need? BULLPEN help. The cubs didn't give up a player to create a weakness. They addressed something and they already had Grace.

Gumshoe

This is absolutely stupid. Raffy is a HOF'er. Don't tell me you're already voting Foulke into the annals of baseball history... Think with your head, not your heart.

gosox41
07-29-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
This is absolutely stupid. Raffy is a HOF'er. Don't tell me you're already voting Foulke into the annals of baseball history... Think with your head, not your heart.

I think his point was the Cubs made a trade of something they had a glut of to fill an immediate hole (closer.) Mitch Williams did help the team win in '89. The Cubs misjudged his talent.

OTOH, the Sox trade one very good closer for one who is significantly worse (based on last season's numbers.) There was no logic behind this trade other then to keep the worse pitcher for an extra year (how backwards is that thinking?) The fact that the Sox had bullpen issues at the time of the trade further proves how dumb the trade was.

Even if Foulke gets hurt in the 2004 season and can never pitch again, this trade was still one of the stupidest one's I've seen. It's one thing to misjudge a young player when trading for a player who helps you win another way. It's a compeltely different logic to trade one great reliever for a guy who is average on his best day. The fact that Koch has lost his one pitch...his fastball (as I predicted at the time of the trade due to overuse) makes the trade all that more stupid. If I can point out something obvious like that, don't you think KW should know these things?

Bob

Gumshoe
07-29-2003, 01:16 PM
Everyone on this board seems to be saying, "Go for it NOW" ... well that's what the Cubs did in '89 and they were productive.

There's a tremendous corollary here too. Observe:

In 1993 the Sox gave up Sosa to get George Bell. Obviously, they knew George Bell was old but that he would help the team. He did in fact help that team, and they had a really good chance of winning it all that year. Do I think that was a bad trade. NO! Sosa is going to be a Hall of Famer, but I don't think he ever would have been with us, and I also think that when it happens he'll be one of the more undeserving HOFers of all time, because his accomplishments meant nothing --- the Cubs have not won ONE playoff game with Sosa. Until he changes that or becomes CLUTCH, he's not a true hall of famer in my opinion. That and he can't really play D, he's proud, etc. Sorry for the rambling about Sosa, but it's the same thing. Do you think the Sosa trade was bad, Randar?

Gumshoe

Randar68
07-29-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Do you think the Sosa trade was bad, Randar?

Gumshoe

No.

Gumshoe
07-29-2003, 02:31 PM
With such a succinct answer, then, I believe you see my point.

G

jeremyb1
07-29-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well thanks for clarifying. I think anything that allows Manuel more tinkering options is dumb, period. Limit his options and the team plays better - as proven these past 11 days.

You cannot judge every option exclusively by the numbers. It isn't good for the team, but thanks for clarifying. Your original post had me confused.

that's fine, you can take the valentin-alomar ss/2B combination when we play lefties against my proposed jimenez-graffanino i'm sure the fact that i'm sure the fact that your's is "tinker free" will allow it to win every game despite the fact that mine more than doubles the offensive production of yours.

Gumshoe
08-04-2003, 11:21 AM
.329
.377
.457
.834


Those are DJ's BA, OBP, and SLG, OPS after the break. Thought you guys would like to know.

By the way, how can a guy have a lower OBP than AVG???? I have seen that but don't think it's possible.

Gumshoe

voodoochile
08-04-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
.329
.377
.457
.834


Those are DJ's BA, OBP, and SLG, OPS after the break. Thought you guys would like to know.

By the way, how can a guy have a lower OBP than AVG???? I have seen that but don't think it's possible.

Gumshoe

If you have a couple of sacrafices and no walks, it is possible.

frankochal
08-11-2003, 11:17 AM
Everyone seems to be forgetting that we also got Neal Cotts in the trade for Foulke. He is rumoured to be starting tomorrow (8/12) and will probably be a good starter in the future! He has a lot of potential. If that potential comes throught the trade will have been great.

voodoochile
08-11-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by frankochal
Everyone seems to be forgetting that we also got Neal Cotts in the trade for Foulke. He is rumoured to be starting tomorrow (8/12) and will probably be a good starter in the future! He has a lot of potential. If that potential comes throught the trade will have been great.

Hey, Welcome Aboard! :D:

Hope you are right.