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kempsted
07-23-2003, 12:42 PM
OK I can't find the thread but someone posted on this board - as a criticism of Bud's leadership of MLB that he has one division with 6 teams and one division with 4.

I am all for criticizing Selig when it is warranted but folks do the math. It is the only possible configuration of two leagues of 30 teams with 3 divisions each. Keep in mind there has to be an even number of teams in each league. So 15 and 15 won't work. That leaves you with 16 and 14. i.e. one league with 2 divisions of 5 and one of 6 and one league with two divisions of 5 and one of 4.

In case you can't see why the number of teams has to be equal - if you have an odd number of teams one team has to sit out everyday. When you play series baseball that means one team out for 3 games in a row. Try to get 162 games in that way.

Iwritecode
07-23-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
OK I can't find the thread but someone posted on this board - as a criticism of Bud's leadership of MLB that he has one division with 6 teams and one division with 4.

I am all for criticizing Selig when it is warranted but folks do the math. It is the only possible configuration of two leagues of 30 teams with 3 divisions each. Keep in mind there has to be an even number of teams in each league. So 15 and 15 won't work. That leaves you with 16 and 14. i.e. one league with 2 divisions of 5 and one of 6 and one league with two divisions of 5 and one of 4.

In case you can't see why the number of teams has to be equal - if you have an odd number of teams one team has to sit out everyday. When you play series baseball that means one team out for 3 games in a row. Try to get 162 games in that way.

OK, there are 30 teams and 6 divisions. 30 / 6 = 5 teams per divison. That would work if each league had 15 teams. Oh wait... that's right... Bud decided to move the Brewers (a team he has nothing to do with ) to the national league so that they have 16 teams and the AL only has 14.

This makes sense why???

adsit
07-23-2003, 01:00 PM
There is a way it could work... have at least one interleague series on the schedule throughout the season. That way there isn't one idle team in each league at all times.

Probably wouldn't be enough interleague to go around, though, if they did it that way.

Contraction would work as well.

Dave

Hangar18
07-23-2003, 01:27 PM
ALL I KNOW is that when expansion happened in 1976, the AL
got Seattle and Toronto. Next expansion was the NL's turn and
Florida and Colorado were added. Foolishly, the MLB decided to Expand again and in 1998, Arizona and TampaBay were added.
These teams were supposed to be in the AL, but not more than
5 minutes as members of the MLB, the DBacks decide they want to alter history and circumvent precedence by Demanding they
be put in the NL. Of course, had there been a REAL commissioner, he wouldve slapped that request down and told them to get in whatever league MLB puts them in and like it.
But no.....The Commissioner had his own Agenda, and martyred
his team, sold out their history, and in a bold move to steal the Braves history and identity, moved themselves to the NL.
Of course, this was automatically a PROBLEM because the NL Central was already too crowded. He couldnt Move a Central team to the West because then they'd be too crowded and it would be a hypocritical move seeing that the cubs and the other owners ran Fay Vincent out for trying to put the Cubs in the west instead of the eastern timezoned Reds. Bud didnt care, he got the artificially created rivalry with the cubs he desperately fantasized about, and got to breathe the words "national league baseball is back". He had the audacity
to even chirp on national tv after the move was made, that
"Milwaukee was always a National League Town. The brewers were always out of place with our fan base"

Hangar18
07-23-2003, 01:46 PM
If i were commissioner....The DBacks would be Forced back
to the AL as members of the AL West. The Tigers, who are
in the eastern time zone, would move to the East (if any division
should have 6 teams, it should be an area that is more densely populated) And as a public slap in the face, the Brewers
would be Moved Back to the AL and back in the AL Central.

doublem23
07-23-2003, 01:49 PM
How does moving the Brewers to the NL "alter" the Braves' identity and history? Seems like they're better off since moving to Atlanta.

And I'd rather have a 14-team league and a 16-team league than have "interleague" every week. That would just be stupid.

kempsted
07-23-2003, 02:15 PM
OK, there are 30 teams and 6 divisions. 30 / 6 = 5 teams per divison. That would work if each league had 15 teams. Oh wait... that's right... Bud decided to move the Brewers (a team he has nothing to do with ) to the national league so that they have 16 teams and the AL only has 14.
Ummm. Did you read my post?!? With the exception of the one posters suggestion of having an interleague game every day this won't work. For Baseball you MUST have an even number of teams. These guys play every day. You can't have one team sit out everyday and get 162 games in. Most of the people who criticize Bud also say interleague play is a bad idea. I agree it should have been the American league with 16 teams but...

Hangar18
07-23-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
How does moving the Brewers to the NL "alter" the Braves' identity and history? Seems like they're better off since moving to Atlanta.

And I'd rather have a 14-team league and a 16-team league than have "interleague" every week. That would just be stupid.

I meant it altered the Braves history in that the Brewers, once they made the move, began flaunting their national league "history" by displaying records and plaques and honoring BRAVES PLAYERS & BRAVES MOMENTS. This fraud of a franchise (brewers) peddled this history off as if the BRAVES had folded!!
Truth is, the Braves moved................to ATLANTA GA. and theyve done pretty well ....esp in the 1990's. I was at a few gms the year before Miller Pk opened, and the cups they were serving Sodas in.....HAD THE MILWAUKEE BRAVES LOGO ON IT!! Talk about Identity Theft!

adsit
07-23-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I meant it altered the Braves history in that the Brewers, once they made the move, began flaunting their national league "history" by displaying records and plaques and honoring BRAVES PLAYERS & BRAVES MOMENTS. This fraud of a franchise (brewers) peddled this history off as if the BRAVES had folded!!
Truth is, the Braves moved................to ATLANTA GA. and theyve done pretty well ....esp in the 1990's. I was at a few gms the year before Miller Pk opened, and the cups they were serving Sodas in.....HAD THE MILWAUKEE BRAVES LOGO ON IT!! Talk about Identity Theft!

This is odd, considering the Milwaukee Braves only lasted for a dozen years or so, and in spite of going to two World Series in a row and narrowly missing a third, had to beg people to attend the games. They fought at the end to keep the team from going to Atlanta mainly to protect the public's investment in County Stadium, which had been built for the Braves.

Can't understand the reason behind nostalgia here at all. Wonder if they sell Seattle Pilots stuff at Safeco?

Dave

voodoochile
07-23-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
OK, there are 30 teams and 6 divisions. 30 / 6 = 5 teams per divison. That would work if each league had 15 teams. Oh wait... that's right... Bud decided to move the Brewers (a team he has nothing to do with ) to the national league so that they have 16 teams and the AL only has 14.

This makes sense why???

Because otherwise there would have to be daily interleague play.

Hangar18
07-23-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by adsit
This is odd, considering the Milwaukee Braves only lasted for a dozen years or so, and in spite of going to two World Series in a row and narrowly missing a third, had to beg people to attend the games. They fought at the end to keep the team from going to Atlanta mainly to protect the public's investment in County Stadium, which had been built for the Braves.

Can't understand the reason behind nostalgia here at all. Wonder if they sell Seattle Pilots stuff at Safeco?

Dave

I hope Bud Selig is reading this. This bogus franchise actually has a statue outside Erected in honor of the Milwaukee Braves
and some Milwaukee Braves fan club at Miller Park.

thecell
07-23-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by adsit
Wonder if they sell Seattle Pilots stuff at Safeco?

Wonder if they sell Sox stuff in Tampa?

adsit
07-23-2003, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I hope Bud Selig is reading this. This bogus franchise actually has a statue outside Erected in honor of the Milwaukee Braves
and some Milwaukee Braves fan club at Miller Park.

At least when the Atlanta investors bought the Braves, they didn't sneak around doing it in secret. When the car salesman stole the Pilots, it was a shameful backdoor deal... perhaps equaled in smarminess only by the Baltimore Colts fiasco. The Seattle franchise was in a little credit trouble in its inaugural year, which Selig helped exploit behind the scenes so he could be a hero "bringing baseball back to Milwaukee." I forget the particulars, but it left Seattle stuck building the Kingdome without a tenant, and bypassed a lot of local investment groups who were sincerely trying to keep the Pilots in town.

That's the man who's now running the whole chili-cheese burrito. Small wonder he's trying to create this faux historical context.

Dave

Dadawg_77
07-23-2003, 06:56 PM
Baseball could easily fix this problem, increase TV ratings and interest, and add some serious cash to its coffers. Instead of paying teams off for contractions, expand. DC area, Carolinas, NO, Las Vegas, Portland are some major areas which don't have a baseball team and probably could support one.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-23-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by adsit
At least when the Atlanta investors bought the Braves, they didn't sneak around doing it in secret. When the car salesman stole the Pilots, it was a shameful backdoor deal... perhaps equaled in smarminess only by the Baltimore Colts fiasco. The Seattle franchise was in a little credit trouble in its inaugural year, which Selig helped exploit behind the scenes so he could be a hero "bringing baseball back to Milwaukee." I forget the particulars, but it left Seattle stuck building the Kingdome without a tenant, and bypassed a lot of local investment groups who were sincerely trying to keep the Pilots in town.

That's the man who's now running the whole chili-cheese burrito. Small wonder he's trying to create this faux historical context.

Dave

All points well-taken, ad. I like your smarminess analogy to Irsay's Colts leaving Baltimore, too. Besides all the sleaze you noted above, let's not forget that Selig stealing the Pilots put the entire American League in legal jeopardy when the City of Seattle sued for abandonment. What solution did the owners devise for fixing their legal problems? Had Selig and his cronies had their way, our White Sox would have MOVED to Seattle when John Allyn soldout in 1975. Only Bill Veeck's 11th hour bid saved the team for Chicago. The owners decided to expand into Seattle (the Mariners) to get out from under the lawsuit Selig made for them.

Isn't that great? Selig thinks Milwaukee is entitled to major league baseball team based on 14 measly seasons of wooing the Braves from Boston. He was willing to sellout the charter franchise Sox, steal a team from Seattle, and put the entire league in legal jeopardy to accomplish his goal. Hard to believe he sold used cars for a living, eh?

Moving the Brewers into the N.L. was simply one more step in Selig recreating the days of his youth cheering for the Braves. He has been willing to bastardize the entire sport just to accommodate the fans in Chicago's biggest and dumbest suburb. :cool:

For over 50 years Milwaukee's Brewers were a AAA team. Who can deny they aren't still? Hell, Naperville deserves a major league team more than they do.

FarmerAndy
07-23-2003, 07:14 PM
Better yet, forget about divisions altogether. The top 4 teams in each league make the playoffs.

Think about it. There would be no unbalanced schedule, so no team would have an easier schedule because they were in a weak division. Each and every game would be equally as important, making the regular season exciting everyday. And the best teams would make the playoffs, which would provide for the most quality post-season possible.

I think that would be the most pure way to play out a season.

FoulTerritory
07-24-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
OK I can't find the thread but someone posted on this board - as a criticism of Bud's leadership of MLB that he has one division with 6 teams and one division with 4.

I am all for criticizing Selig when it is warranted but folks do the math. It is the only possible configuration of two leagues of 30 teams with 3 divisions each. Keep in mind there has to be an even number of teams in each league. So 15 and 15 won't work. That leaves you with 16 and 14. i.e. one league with 2 divisions of 5 and one of 6 and one league with two divisions of 5 and one of 4.

In case you can't see why the number of teams has to be equal - if you have an odd number of teams one team has to sit out everyday. When you play series baseball that means one team out for 3 games in a row. Try to get 162 games in that way.

Kempstead,

You might be referring to my passing reference to my hatred of 6 teams in one division and 4 in another in my article "all star post modum" on the main page. Not sure.

But nevertheless, you obviously raise a good point, and an objection I should expect considering I didn't develop my position.

I personally, despise competetive unfairness in any manner. Fixing this problem at this point would not be easy, as you poinot out, but nevertheless Selig put MLB in this position via overexpanding when 14 teams per league seems most natural, and as many have pointed out, perhaps the easiest way out, irnoically, is to keep expanding so that there are 16 teams in each league.

Otherwise, niftier scheduling would be needed, which would A) allow one team a day off at all times in each league, which should be possible I think, because that would mean about 2 days off a month, which seems the average anyway, but might throw things off in a way that series aren't always bundled into weekend chunks, and the common T,W,R chunk, causing the occassional Sat, Sun, Mon series, etc, as the technique for scheduling series' would have to flex to accomodate a team off at all times, but not taking multiple days off consecutively. Surely a computer could manage a scheduling situation like this, although it might provide for a more awkward type schedule. Or they could spread out interleague play throughout the season, rather than chunk it all into one month.

But yeah, its the fact that we're at 30 teams, rather than the preferred 28, or 32, that seams to have brought about this problem. And considering baseballs economic problems, the quick 90's exapansion seems even less logical. Short term is the only way Bud thinks.

Just look at the NFL. They are so sound in their ability to consider the long-term effects of all aspects of the game, especially from a competetive standpoint. I understand that due to playing only one game a week it makes things easier, but still . . . they align properly, they refuse to expand the playoffs despite pressure from Lamar Hunt (because it would cheapen the regular season) they have a schedule that perflectly balances regional rivalries with occassional odd inter-conference mathcups, they have expanded to a workable amount of teams . . . Why? Mostly I think, because their leadership in both the commissioners office and the competition committe in that they both have long term vision.

Brad