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34rancher
07-23-2003, 09:35 AM
According to his article (http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay23.html) today, he thinks that Frank might get into the hall of fame, while Sosa is a lock. Looking at Frank (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4527&context=batting) career number and Sosa (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4344&context=batting) I would give a serious advantage to Frank, especially with OPS, Sluuging, Average, Half the Strikeouts, 100 more doubles, and most of all 1000 less at-bats.
Opinions? Am I a foolish here?

D'Angelo F Death
07-23-2003, 09:42 AM
They're both locks. Chicago baseball has been blessed by two of the best hitters of all-time. Thomas does have one thing working against him though, and that's that after the age of 30 or so he hasn't been the same player. But he's hitting pretty well this year, and this slide (we hope) may be due to a long triceps-related hangover.

The HOF is full of guys who weren't the same after 30...take a look at Carl Yastrzemski's numbers some time.

On top of that, Thomas.2003 is still a very productive hitter.

Yeah they're both locks.

Hangar18
07-23-2003, 09:43 AM
that may be so.....but sam-me will get in because of the
Chicago Media Lobby is a Significant force

bobj4400
07-23-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
that may be so.....but sam-me will get in because of the
Chicago Media Lobby is a Significant force


If that is the case, dont you think Santo would be in by now?? The Chicago media practically goes into hysterics when the 'injustice and travesty' of Santo not being in the HOF is brought up.

D'Angelo F Death
07-23-2003, 09:55 AM
Sosa gets in on merit, don't kid yourself.

Risk
07-23-2003, 10:11 AM
Sammy Sosa getting in on merit is like Bill Clinton preaching fidelity and George W. Bush being intelligent--doesn't happen.

Risk

hold2dibber
07-23-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Risk
Sammy Sosa getting in on merit is like Bill Clinton preaching fidelity and George W. Bush being intelligent--doesn't happen.

Risk

Come on - suggesting Sosa doesn't deserve to get in is pretty preposterous. As much as I hate the guy and think the whole Sammy persona is a giant crock, his numbers clearly make him worthy of induction. With that said, however, there is also no doubt in my mind, that Frank has had a better career than Sosa. Sosa will obviously get in; Frank will get in too. But Sosa will be first ballot, whereas Frank will probably take a few years. Which is complete b.s.

Soxboyrob
07-23-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by 34rancher
According to his article (http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay23.html) today, he thinks that Frank might get into the hall of fame, while Sosa is a lock. Looking at Frank (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4527&context=batting) career number and Sosa (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4344&context=batting) I would give a serious advantage to Frank, especially with OPS, Sluuging, Average, Half the Strikeouts, 100 more doubles, and most of all 1000 less at-bats.
Opinions? Am I a foolish here?

While Frank beats Sammy in career OPS and OBP, the voting community unfortunately tends to look very strongly at RBI and HR and BA and sorta ignores the other stuff. Not sure why it's that way. they're infatuated w/ the gaudy numbers and forget that when you're taking 100+ walks a season, it's harder to have those gaudy final numbers.

D'Angelo F Death
07-23-2003, 10:27 AM
The two players have very different career arcs. Thomas was just fantastic from day 1-- immediately one of the best hitters in the game, then had those "off years" '98 & '99 and the injury in '01 and just hasn't been the same since. But he's never been a bad player...and is still great, I think. Just not as.

Sosa stunk early on though showed the potential right away. I know I was pissed when he got traded. Then his first few yrs as a Cub he was flashy with good power and good speed but not nearly the hitter he is now. Round about '97 or '98 he just jumped to another level and has definitely been one of the 2 or 3 best hitters in the game ever since.

I think if they are eligible the same year, and neither ever have any October glory...then Sammy's arc will look more impressive to the typical HOF voter.

But obviously Thomas deserves induction.

1951Campbell
07-23-2003, 10:41 AM
baseballreference.com on Frank:

Black Ink: Batting - 21 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 180 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 48.5 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 160.0 (Likely HOFer > 100)

...and Sosa*:

Black Ink: Batting - 28 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 131 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 42.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 165.0 (Likely HOFer > 100)

Frank might actually have the better case. Or I should say rather, Frank is theh better first-ballot HOFer.

FoulTerritory
07-23-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by 34rancher
According to his article (http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay23.html) today, he thinks that Frank might get into the hall of fame, while Sosa is a lock. Looking at Frank (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4527&context=batting) career number and Sosa (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4344&context=batting) I would give a serious advantage to Frank, especially with OPS, Sluuging, Average, Half the Strikeouts, 100 more doubles, and most of all 1000 less at-bats.
Opinions? Am I a foolish here?

they both deserve to get in, and imho, they both will get in.

But the reason Suser is given prefence over Frank is that it is called the hall of "fame" for a reason, not the hall of "superior meaningfull stats" or even the hall of "greatness."

throughout history you find many "famous" or "infamous" players getting in before other more derserving statistical players. Really, the hall is just literally living up to its title, for right or wrong.

and by the way, while i think pete rose should be banned for life from baseball, i really don't see how his adverse behavior should keep him out of the hall. logically, they are two seperate issues, and should be treated as such.

i mean, so many people in the hall from the old days were a black mark on baseball in more ways than one. i mean if the pre-rose era saw everyone from wife beaters, to rascists, to drunkards get in then why isn't pete there? tarnishing the reputation of the game and even the competetive integrity of the game is why pete should never actively participate in the game again in any form but at the same time, his accomplishments and fame are what should put him in the hall. the hall is a museum, not a court of ethics, and we put bad stuff in museums too. heck, you can go to the feild museum and see relics from the positive and extremely negative aspects of history such as those from tyranical and murdurous rulers. they discredit the integrity of the human race, but still bear being in the museum, because a museum is amoral by nature.

interestingly, at the time of Shoeless Joe, and long after, there was no techinical connection between being "banned" and the getting into the hall. in fact, it is the brevity of shoeless' career and thus stunted stats that initially kept him out.

Brad

gosox41
07-23-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Come on - suggesting Sosa doesn't deserve to get in is pretty preposterous. As much as I hate the guy and think the whole Sammy persona is a giant crock, his numbers clearly make him worthy of induction. With that said, however, there is also no doubt in my mind, that Frank has had a better career than Sosa. Sosa will obviously get in; Frank will get in too. But Sosa will be first ballot, whereas Frank will probably take a few years. Which is complete b.s.

You bring up a good point about Sammy's power numbers. But it makes me wonder how many of his numbers are real? He used a corked bat. I bet it wasn't his first time, and if rumors that I've heard hold true, then MLB is helping to cover up about 75 more corked bats. And while I have no proof of actual sterois use, I'd become suspicious if my son gained 60 punds of muscle in a 3 year time period. Especially considering the amont of time Sosa is traveling on the road. Do you think he works out in the weight room 4-5 hours on game days? I doubt it and that's 6 months a year.

Frank is approaching 400 HR's and is about 115 behind Sosa. If Sosa didn't have the benefit of cork and whatever chemical he was using to enhance his strength I'm betting that at least 80-100 of his HR's are a farce. I have no scientific reasoning for this, just using some logic based on Sosa's sudden increase in weight right before he went on his 5 year HR binge and the fact that he has been caught cheating with cork. Makes me wonder what other advantages he took to "improve" his game. At least we have an idea of when the cheating started.

Also, isn't it odd that no team confiscates any of Sosa's bats after a HR. I hate conspiracy theories but it does make me wonder if Selig put out the word not to harass one of MLB's main gate attraction. Especially after his latest HR binge I'd be checking his bats just to mess with his head and throw him off his game (assuming all these homers are legit.)

Bob

Nellie_Fox
07-23-2003, 12:30 PM
Perhaps the biggest reason Sammy is a lock and Frank is a probable is that Frank is thought of as a DH. Fair or not, there is a bias that a DH is not a complete player. I can't think of anyone in the Hall whose career is mostly DH. Those who are in despite having been a DH are those who already had their HOF numbers prior to being relegated to DH.

RKMeibalane
07-23-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Perhaps the biggest reason Sammy is a lock and Frank is a probable is that Frank is thought of as a DH. Fair or not, there is a bias that a DH is not a complete player. I can't think of anyone in the Hall whose career is mostly DH. Those who are in despite having been a DH are those who already had their HOF numbers prior to being relegated to DH.

It is for this reason that some people believe Frank would be better off if he finished his career in the National League, where he can play only first base. Frank has given consideration to playing for NL teams (Atlanta, Los Angeles) in the past. I would love to see him finish his career on the South Side, but this may be something he should look into again, because he won't get to play first much with "The Tinkerker" around.