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hsnterprize
07-20-2003, 04:46 PM
I'm listening to Les Grobstein and Tommy Williams on ESPN Radio 1000, and they agree that Sox fans shouldn't have booed the Cub players and such at the ASG the other night. I'll hear what else they have to say, and then if I can, I'll call them and give them my 2 cents worth.

RKMeibalane
07-20-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
I'm listening to Les Grobstein and Tommy Williams on ESPN Radio 1000, and they agree that Sox fans shouldn't have booed the Cub players and such at the ASG the other night. I'll hear what else they have to say, and then if I can, I'll call them and give them my 2 cents worth.

Give me a break! Yes, it was the All Star Game, but the Cubs are still the Cubs, and that means that they will get booed when they enter the 'Cell. That's the way it is. Somehow, I don't think Grobstein and Williams would be complaining if the game had been at Wrigley and Sox players were booed.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-20-2003, 05:04 PM
Those two really need to give it a break. If they honestly don't understand why Sox Fans booed the people they booed, they should invite 1-2 articulate callers to explain it to them. Of course we're talking about sports blab radio, so finding even one articulate caller can be pretty difficult.

They ought to spend more time here to get a clue.

hsnterprize
07-20-2003, 05:25 PM
Once I got on the air, I only had a couple of minutes to make my point. I told Grobber that since he and I have say in many press boxes in this city, that we both know how passionate Sox fans are about their team, and how much we're against the Cubs. Even though it was an All-Star Game, we Sox fans are going to make our feelings known...we just had the chance to make them known on a national stage. Tommy then asked me whether or not it was right for Manuel to get booed. I've said many times on this site that I'm not necessarily on the "Fire Jerry" bandwagon, but I understand that if Sox fans are upset at him, they'll make it known the first chance they get.

I also mentioned WSI, and Les says he reads it every day. I also know him, and even though he's an unapologetic Cub fans (I actually have a lot more respect for him to put it that way), he does respect the Sox and Sox fans. We can rip him for his loyalty to the north siders, but at least he's smart enough to understand where we're coming from...which is a rarity for any Cub fan tries to figure us out.

adsit
07-20-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
I'm listening to Les Grobstein and Tommy Williams on ESPN Radio 1000...

Grobstein's still on the air there? Jeez, I used to get riled at him and his perpetual anti-Sox crusade 20 years ago. And, banging a drum almost a week after the fact... sounds to me like he's still the same.

I can imagine him now, in his whiny voice (or even better, Steve Dahl's or Larry Lujack's horrible imitation of same), saying "Cub fans wouldn't do that..."

Instead of having a sports show about those 'no-class Sox fans' booing their own manager, why not have one looking into what motivated all that booing? JM has F'd up a talented team for three years running. It's a crime.

And the fans give a damn. That's not unusual in major league baseball. At YankMe Stadium, they boo Torre when they lose three in a row. Imagine what they'd do to Manuel in NY...

(hey, seeds of a fantasy, there...)

Dave

doublem23
07-20-2003, 06:00 PM
I don't think anyone needs any more proof that the Chicago sports media doesn't understand the psyche of Sox fans... And thinks that we're all just like Cub fans who have ventured 12 miles south.

cheeses_h_rice
07-20-2003, 06:11 PM
I'd like to point out that some Flub fans around me *were* booing Sox players. There were 2 moo-moos down the row from me wearing Flub gear who were cackling with glee every time a Sox player did something not-good (Maggs' weak pop-out especially). They also booed heartily any time a Sox representative was mentioned or showed up on Diamond Vision.

A million bucks sez if the AS game is played at Wrigley, representatives of the White Sox AND Cardinals AND Astros would be booed.

Give me a freakin' break.

harwar
07-20-2003, 06:14 PM
I don't know how anyone can listen to those guys.T.Williams is just mad because his pirates ain't exactly tearin it up.

chisoxt
07-20-2003, 07:11 PM
ESPN has these two guys on to offer some pro-Cubness to the station. I tell you, the sportsradio pickings on Sunday afternoon are pretty slim...it's either moron Jess Rogers on the Score or those two goofs.

kevingrt
07-20-2003, 08:37 PM
Two cubs fans...

sox_fan_forever
07-20-2003, 08:45 PM
Something I just remembered...

There were a lot of Cub fans in my section at the ASG (at least around where I was sitting, row 3 of 530) and they booed the Cardinal players when they were announced. Methinks there's a double standard here...(of course, I already thought that anyway.) :angry:

DrCrawdad
07-20-2003, 09:10 PM
I read Les' comments on the ASB on his website. Interesting that Les' said that there were a lot of Cubbie fans at the ASG. Of course if it was negative in his perception then it was the Sox fans.

LES' TAKE ON THE ASG:
1. Booing Manuel. All Sox fans fault.
2. Booing Baker. Sox fans.
3. Booing Cardinals. Sox fans.
4. Booing Would and The Messiah. Sox fans but you could hear the roar from the large Cubbie fan contingent.

sox_fan_forever
07-20-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
LES' TAKE ON THE ASG:
3. Booing Cardinals. Sox fans.


Why the hell would we boo the Cardinals? Most people here root for them if anything.

RKMeibalane
07-20-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by sox_fan_forever
Why the hell would we boo the Cardinals? Most people here root for them if anything.

Agreed. If there were no White Sox, I would probably be a Cardinals fan. The same goes for a lot of the members here. Les is an idiot.

Thunderstruck30
07-21-2003, 12:01 AM
I guess according to these guys its wrong to have a passion for your team and have some hatred towards your teams main rivals. Also, Sox fans had every right to boo Manuel too. Some guys on the radio today(I forgot who) said that the Sox fans shouldnt have booed Manuel because he was the Sox manager.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Give me a break! Yes, it was the All Star Game, but the Cubs are still the Cubs, and that means that they will get booed when they enter the 'Cell. That's the way it is. Somehow, I don't think Grobstein and Williams would be complaining if the game had been at Wrigley and Sox players were booed.

Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill. I said go ahead and boo the Cubs,Twins,Royals,Yanks or whoever,and if you want to boo you Manager all season--go for it,BUT......to boo a guy(no matter whom he is)wearing a White Sox Uniform in the Sox own Ballpark on a World(not nationwide but worldwide)stage is crassy and had NOTHING to do with showing how much emtotion you have for your team. It's ignorant! YOU DONT LIKE JERRY MANUEL? FINE,get on him in a Sox game. Also,most of you here dont remember or DONT WANT TO REMEMBER, but in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen and Ozzie Guillen represented the Sox in the AS game at Wrigley,the mostly pro Cub crowd there cheered them,no one booed.Many of those Fans hated the Sox but showed some class! You may say,well Cub Fans dont hate the Sox as much as Sox Fans hate the Cubs---well that may have been true before 1984,but guess what? No more. The dislike is now equal on both sides of town wether you all want to admit it or not. Nobody here on this site,or anywhere else will convice me that the Booing of Jerry Manuel Tuesday night was anything other than silly at best. That said,it's a free country and you do have the right to boo anyone you want including your own Manager wearing a Sox uniform,but guess what(again),I have the same right to my oppinion and I think I gave it. If it does'nt match all or yours to the letter-then I guess it's time for some silly name calling(not by all of you of course). Reminds me of someone I used to work with at the other Station who is like that!

LES GROBSTEIN

doublem23
07-21-2003, 01:21 AM
Ha ha ha...

:)

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill. I said go ahead and boo the Cubs,Twins,Royals,Yanks or whoever,and if you want to boo you Manager all season--go for it,BUT......to boo a guy(no matter whom he is)wearing a White Sox Uniform in the Sox own Ballpark on a World(not nationwide but worldwide)stage is crassy and had NOTHING to do with showing how much emtotion you have for your team. It's ignorant! YOU DONT LIKE JERRY MANUEL? FINE,get on him in a Sox game. Also,most of you here dont remember or DONT WANT TO REMEMBER, but in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen and Ozzie Guillen represented the Sox in the AS game at Wrigley,the mostly pro Cub crowd there cheered them,no one booed.Many of those Fans hated the Sox but showed some class! You may say,well Cub Fans dont hate the Sox as much as Sox Fans hate the Cubs---well that may have been true before 1984,but guess what? No more. The dislike is now equal on both sides of town wether you all want to admit it or not. Nobody here on this site,or anywhere else will convice me that the Booing of Jerry Manuel Tuesday night was anything other than silly at best. That said,it's a free country and you do have the right to boo anyone you want including your own Manager wearing a Sox uniform,but guess what(again),I have the same right to my oppinion and I think I gave it. If it does'nt match all or yours to the letter-then I guess it's time for some silly name calling(not by all of you of course). Reminds me of someone I used to work with at the other Station who is like that!

LES GROBSTEIN

I have to agree with Les here. We complain about the national coverage and perception of our team and fans, but when we do things like that, it doesn't help. It makes us look not like intelligent fans, but hooligans.

VeeckAsInWreck
07-21-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
LES' TAKE ON THE ASG:
3. Booing Cardinals. Sox fans.


I was in sec. 160 surrounded by Cubs/Brewers/Cardinals fans.

The only ones booing the Cardinals were Cub fans. I cheered for every Cardinal, I may have even cheered louder for Albert Pujols than I did for Carl Everett.

ShoelessFred
07-21-2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill. I said go ahead and boo the Cubs,Twins,Royals,Yanks or whoever,and if you want to boo you Manager all season--go for it,BUT......to boo a guy(no matter whom he is)wearing a White Sox Uniform in the Sox own Ballpark on a World(not nationwide but worldwide)stage is crassy and had NOTHING to do with showing how much emtotion you have for your team. It's ignorant! YOU DONT LIKE JERRY MANUEL? FINE,get on him in a Sox game. Also,most of you here dont remember or DONT WANT TO REMEMBER, but in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen and Ozzie Guillen represented the Sox in the AS game at Wrigley,the mostly pro Cub crowd there cheered them,no one booed.Many of those Fans hated the Sox but showed some class! You may say,well Cub Fans dont hate the Sox as much as Sox Fans hate the Cubs---well that may have been true before 1984,but guess what? No more. The dislike is now equal on both sides of town wether you all want to admit it or not. Nobody here on this site,or anywhere else will convice me that the Booing of Jerry Manuel Tuesday night was anything other than silly at best. That said,it's a free country and you do have the right to boo anyone you want including your own Manager wearing a Sox uniform,but guess what(again),I have the same right to my oppinion and I think I gave it. If it does'nt match all or yours to the letter-then I guess it's time for some silly name calling(not by all of you of course). Reminds me of someone I used to work with at the other Station who is like that!

LES GROBSTEIN

les have you gone soft? gimmie a break my friend. who made you the authority on this one? i think it would be totally hypocritical (sp?) for sox fans to boo jerry's ass all season, then just cause it's an EXIBITION GAME suddenly cheer for him. that is something typical in the CUBS fan mentality. and i could care less what happened at wrigley field when the AS game was held there. that has NOTHING to do with this situation. i booed jerry's ass from my couch that night. it's like saying someone SUCKS behind their back, but when you come face to face with them you tell them they are doing a good job. SOX FANS HAVE BALLS. it's just sad to see that lately your ANTI-SOX, PRO-CUBS rhetoric has gotten out of control. is wgn looking for a radio host?

hsnterprize
07-21-2003, 05:29 AM
Wow...I can tell just by reading these posts that this topic is gonna get heated if it's not already. Time for y'all to get into your corners and take a breath. Let's face it...this subject, while good for talk radio fodder, really isn't as big as we're making it out to be.

Let's al agree on this premise...the booing happened, whether people like it or not. Like I said on the radio, Sox fans are very passionate, and they're going to let their feelings known when they get the chance. It's just that many fans' distaste for Manuel was displayed on a national stage, and many people who are "outside the loop" (i.e., not Sox fans) are wondering why fans would boo their own manager. Well, we all know, and anyone who is truly interested in finding out can come to this site and find out for themselves.

Like SoCalUIC said, we're not making ourselves look any better on a national scale when we act like idiots on the rare chances we get to have the spotlight all to ourselves. Personally, I wasn't too crazy about the booing, but since I'm a Sox fan, and I understand the situation, it let it pass. Not to mention, there wer so many positives about the All-Star Game...and especially when I heard reporter after reporter say that U.S. Cellular Field looked excellent that night, that I think the national "negativity" about that ballpark is starting to recede. The persona about the Sox and Sox fans didn't happen opernight, and it's not going to go away overnight. And sometimes I think going back and forth about topics like this aren't helping our situation.

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Wow...I can tell just by reading these posts that this topic is gonna get heated if it's not already. Time for y'all to get into your corners and take a breath. Let's face it...this subject, while good for talk radio fodder, really isn't as big as we're making it out to be.

Let's al agree on this premise...the booing happened, whether people like it or not. Like I said on the radio, Sox fans are very passionate, and they're going to let their feelings known when they get the chance. It's just that many fans' distaste for Manuel was displayed on a national stage, and many people who are "outside the loop" (i.e., not Sox fans) are wondering why fans would boo their own manager. Well, we all know, and anyone who is truly interested in finding out can come to this site and find out for themselves.

Like SoCalUIC said, we're not making ourselves look any better on a national scale when we act like idiots on the rare chances we get to have the spotlight all to ourselves. Personally, I wasn't too crazy about the booing, but since I'm a Sox fan, and I understand the situation, it let it pass. Not to mention, there wer so many positives about the All-Star Game...and especially when I heard reporter after reporter say that U.S. Cellular Field looked excellent that night, that I think the national "negativity" about that ballpark is starting to recede. The persona about the Sox and Sox fans didn't happen opernight, and it's not going to go away overnight. And sometimes I think going back and forth about topics like this aren't helping our situation.

I thought booing Manuel was a bit harsh. But as I mentioned, Les (and other Cubbie media) has pointed the finger solely at Sox fans.

Can Les state for a certainty that Cubbie fans in attendance at the ASG did NOT boo Manuel? How does Les know that it wasn't mainly Cubbie fans who booed Manuel with Sox fans either silent or a few booing?

Les points to the 1990 ASG at Wrigley. Well I don't remember but how did Sox fans greet Cubbie players back in 1983 at the ASG at Comiskey?

I have good reason to believe that IF the ASG were held at the Wrigley now Sox players would be booed.

Who do you think booed Cardinal players this year? I don't think Sox fans would boo Cardinal players.

I like Les, but like many koolaid drinking Cubbie fans Les jumps at any opportunity to put down Sox fans and tell us who classy Cubbie fans are. Notice in Les' comments he told us about the wonderful fans at Wrigley and how they didn't boo Sox players 12 years ago.

I'll try to accept the bullfeces about how classy Cubbie fans and forget about the treatment we've (my wife and 2 year old daughter) endured at The Unfriendly Confines.

The last time at Wrigley my daughter learned a whole bunch of new words that got hurled at us last year at Wrigley for the crime of wearing a Sox shirt.

ssang
07-21-2003, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill. I said go ahead and boo the Cubs,Twins,Royals,Yanks or whoever,and if you want to boo you Manager all season--go for it,BUT......to boo a guy(no matter whom he is)wearing a White Sox Uniform in the Sox own Ballpark on a World(not nationwide but worldwide)stage is crassy and had NOTHING to do with showing how much emtotion you have for your team. It's ignorant! YOU DONT LIKE JERRY MANUEL? FINE,get on him in a Sox game. Also,most of you here dont remember or DONT WANT TO REMEMBER, but in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen and Ozzie Guillen represented the Sox in the AS game at Wrigley,the mostly pro Cub crowd there cheered them,no one booed.Many of those Fans hated the Sox but showed some class! You may say,well Cub Fans dont hate the Sox as much as Sox Fans hate the Cubs---well that may have been true before 1984,but guess what? No more. The dislike is now equal on both sides of town wether you all want to admit it or not. Nobody here on this site,or anywhere else will convice me that the Booing of Jerry Manuel Tuesday night was anything other than silly at best. That said,it's a free country and you do have the right to boo anyone you want including your own Manager wearing a Sox uniform,but guess what(again),I have the same right to my oppinion and I think I gave it. If it does'nt match all or yours to the letter-then I guess it's time for some silly name calling(not by all of you of course). Reminds me of someone I used to work with at the other Station who is like that!

LES GROBSTEIN

Les, what makes you the authority on this one? What? Just becuase you have the privelage of voicing your opinion on the radio DOES NOT mean that you are right and we are wrong. If we didn't boo Manuel at the ASG then we wouldn't be true to our feelings on him. It would be like we were masking or hiding the fact that Manuel has consistently brought this team down for years. Now it's the All-Star game and we have to suddenly cheer him cause it's on a national stage?!?!? I THINK NOT! Besides, that's not the message you want to send to children. Hide what you believe in??? If anything, cheering for Manuel would have been a very SAD jesture on our part. In conclusion, boo Manuel at all times because the bottom line is that he deserves it. We do not hide our feelings, Les. You are wrong on this one.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill. I said go ahead and boo the Cubs,Twins,Royals,Yanks or whoever,and if you want to boo you Manager all season--go for it,BUT......to boo a guy(no matter whom he is)wearing a White Sox Uniform in the Sox own Ballpark on a World(not nationwide but worldwide)stage is crassy and had NOTHING to do with showing how much emtotion you have for your team. It's ignorant! YOU DONT LIKE JERRY MANUEL? FINE,get on him in a Sox game. Also,most of you here dont remember or DONT WANT TO REMEMBER, but in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen and Ozzie Guillen represented the Sox in the AS game at Wrigley,the mostly pro Cub crowd there cheered them,no one booed.Many of those Fans hated the Sox but showed some class! You may say,well Cub Fans dont hate the Sox as much as Sox Fans hate the Cubs---well that may have been true before 1984,but guess what? No more. The dislike is now equal on both sides of town wether you all want to admit it or not. Nobody here on this site,or anywhere else will convice me that the Booing of Jerry Manuel Tuesday night was anything other than silly at best. That said,it's a free country and you do have the right to boo anyone you want including your own Manager wearing a Sox uniform,but guess what(again),I have the same right to my oppinion and I think I gave it. If it does'nt match all or yours to the letter-then I guess it's time for some silly name calling(not by all of you of course). Reminds me of someone I used to work with at the other Station who is like that!

LES GROBSTEIN

So after a 2-8 road trip against the dregs of the American League, you think Sox fans should have been cheering? Or maybe just sitting on their hands? You really don't understand Sox fans one iota.

Silly to boo the man who had by that time had soemthing like 84 different starting lineups? Silly to boo the guy who after receiving criticism for not getting thrown out of a game because he failed to protest an obvious home run that was called foul but then proceeds to get thrown out more in the next two months than he had in the previous five years? Silly to boo the guy who rested our best hitter in the middle of a series that was bracketed by off days just a week before the All-Star Break?

There is a lot of frustration this season. The Sox were touted as contenders, but under the leadership of Mr. Manuel, they struggled through April and May, and just when it appeared that they were coming out of it, they dropped 8 out of ten games against the dregs of the American League. By the time the All-Star Game rolled around, I think Sox fans had reached their limit.

And what better way to let The Chairman know how they felt about HIS seeming indifference than to demonstrate their feelings in front of that worldwide audience. I think in their heart of hearts the fans there (and I wasn't there, so I'm not defending myself) felt that this was the only way they had to let Jerry Reinsdorf know that they were "mad as hell and weren't going to take it anymore."

You need to go back and read PHG's original essay that set the tone for this web site, which has been retitled several times since the site was started, so that it is now "86 Years and Waiting." In it he explains better than I ever could the psychology of Sox fans. Maybe you'd gain some incite as to why it happened.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Wow...I can tell just by reading these posts that this topic is gonna get heated if it's not already. Time for y'all to get into your corners and take a breath. Let's face it...this subject, while good for talk radio fodder, really isn't as big as we're making it out to be.

It wasn't until Chris Berman made an issue of it on national television.

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
So after a 2-8 road trip against the dregs of the American League, you think Sox fans should have been cheering? Or maybe just sitting on their hands? You really don't understand Sox fans one iota.

Silly to boo the man who had by that time had soemthing like 84 different starting lineups? Silly to boo the guy who after receiving criticism for not getting thrown out of a game because he failed to protest an obvious home run that was called foul but then proceeds to get thrown out more in the next two months than he had in the previous five years? Silly to boo the guy who rested our best hitter in the middle of a series that was bracketed by off days just a week before the All-Star Break?

There is a lot of frustration this season. The Sox were touted as contenders, but under the leadership of Mr. Manuel, they struggled through April and May, and just when it appeared that they were coming out of it, they dropped 8 out of ten games against the dregs of the American League. By the time the All-Star Game rolled around, I think Sox fans had reached their limit.

And what better way to let The Chairman know how they felt about HIS seeming indifference than to demonstrate their feelings in front of that worldwide audience. I think in their heart of hearts the fans there (and I wasn't there, so I'm not defending myself) felt that this was the only way they had to let Jerry Reinsdorf know that they were "mad as hell and weren't going to take it anymore."

You need to go back and read PHG's original essay that set the tone for this web site, which has been retitled several times since the site was started, so that it is now "86 Years and Waiting." In it he explains better than I ever could the psychology of Sox fans. Maybe you'd gain some incite as to why it happened.

Excellent post. I would like to add one point. It was the first game at Soxpark after said disasterous road trip. It isn't like the Sox had been home for weeks. That was the very first chance Sox fans got to show their displeasure for the crappy play the Sox had managed leading up to the ASG.

Like you said, it was compounded by the fact that 2 weeks prior the fans were skyhigh after winning 4 straight series against our main divisional and emotional rivals. Context is everything...

hsnterprize
07-21-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
I thought booing Manuel was a bit harsh. But as I mentioned, Les (and other Cubbie media) has pointed the finger solely at Sox fans.

Can Les state for a certainty that Cubbie fans in attendance at the ASG did NOT boo Manuel? How does Les know that it wasn't mainly Cubbie fans who booed Manuel with Sox fans either silent or a few booing?

Les points to the 1990 ASG at Wrigley. Well I don't remember but how did Sox fans greet Cubbie players back in 1983 at the ASG at Comiskey?

I have good reason to believe that IF the ASG were held at the Wrigley now Sox players would be booed.

Who do you think booed Cardinal players this year? I don't think Sox fans would boo Cardinal players.

I like Les, but like many koolaid drinking Cubbie fans Les jumps at any opportunity to put down Sox fans and tell us who classy Cubbie fans are. Notice in Les' comments he told us about the wonderful fans at Wrigley and how they didn't boo Sox players 12 years ago.

I'll try to accept the bullfeces about how classy Cubbie fans and forget about the treatment we've (my wife and 2 year old daughter) endured at The Unfriendly Confines.

The last time at Wrigley my daughter learned a whole bunch of new words that got hurled at us last year at Wrigley for the crime of wearing a Sox shirt. It's a pretty well known fact that Cub fans can be a bunch of idiots. I hope I didn't give the impression that I was sticking up for them. I know that with his allegiance to the Cubs, he'll stick up for his team no matter what we Sox fans say. However, even a guy like Les, whom I happen to like BTW, wouldn't accept people talking to your daughter the way you describe it. I have a son who is nearly 1 1/2 years old. God forbid if I take him to a game a Wrigley wearing Sox gear, and he hears it from the Old Style-laden knuckleheads who'll only go to Murphy's after the 7th inning stretch.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Excellent post. I would like to add one point. It was the first game at Soxpark after said disasterous road trip. It isn't like the Sox had been home for weeks. That was the very first chance Sox fans got to show their displeasure for the crappy play the Sox had managed leading up to the ASG.

Like you said, it was compounded by the fact that 2 weeks prior the fans were skyhigh after winning 4 straight series against our main divisional and emotional rivals. Context is everything...

I'd like to comment on another point that Les made that is utter nonsense. He was really quick to point out that Cubs fans cheered the representatives from the Sox. May I point out that there was no direct rivalry then between the Cubs and Sox because there was no interleague play? From the profanity laced comments I heard during the last Cubs-Sox series at The Cell, I don't think Les would be able to take such a high and mighty attitude.

Here is an example of an exchange that occurred between two people I was sitting near at the June 29 game.

Following a series of derogatory comments about the Sox, The Cell, and Sox fans, in which the F-bomb was dropped several times by this idiot, the guy sitting next to me said, "Hey, come on! There are kids here."

Genius boys response: "F*** the kids!"

Classy fans, Les.

hold2dibber
07-21-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill. I said go ahead and boo the Cubs,Twins,Royals,Yanks or whoever,and if you want to boo you Manager all season--go for it,BUT......to boo a guy(no matter whom he is)wearing a White Sox Uniform in the Sox own Ballpark on a World(not nationwide but worldwide)stage is crassy and had NOTHING to do with showing how much emtotion you have for your team. It's ignorant! YOU DONT LIKE JERRY MANUEL? FINE,get on him in a Sox game.

Huh? That makes no sense at all. Many Sox fans dislike Manuel because he has not gotten the team, for the last few years, to play to its level of talent (to put it mildly). The team has underachieved like no other this year. Sox fans are ticked off and think he's done a terrible job. That is why he is booed and that has EVERYTHING to do with showing how much emotion you have for your team. Sox fans are pissed off at Manuel, so they boo him. How can you possibly say that has nothing to do with showing emotion for your team? That is EXACTLY what it shows. Not booing Manuel would have been hypocritical and phony.

Also,most of you here dont remember or DONT WANT TO REMEMBER, but in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen and Ozzie Guillen represented the Sox in the AS game at Wrigley,the mostly pro Cub crowd there cheered them,no one booed.Many of those Fans hated the Sox but showed some class!

(1) To me, that's not "classy" - it's hypocritical. Based upon your (flawed) thinking, if the fans at any ASG boo any players from any team, that shows a lack of class. I'm sorry, but I find that to be ignorant, and, moreover, picking on Sox fans for booing is not fair, because it happens every year.
(2) I don't remember the '90 ASG enough to know if you're right or not, but if you think that Cubs fans would cheer Sox players in 2003, you're sorely out of touch with your fan base.

Dadawg_77
07-21-2003, 08:38 AM
I think some people here aren't seeing the reason why others think it was wrong to boo JM at the All Star Game. Take to a family concept, with the family it is all right to criticize each other but you keep with yourselves. Booing Jerry at a home game is keeping within the family but booing at the ASG was like airing all your dirty laundry. I can see that point as being valid but I don't agree with it since I was one of the people booing Jerry.

Me, probably like most the rest of the people who booed Jerry, were extremely pissed at the way the team played and how he managed after great sweep of the Twins. We were on cloud nine going into Tampa and Detroit only to be on the edge ready to jump off with the biggest case of baseball blue balls in recent Sox history, I think 67 is the biggest case of all time. The Sox fans needed to release some of that anger and tension they felt towards the team and Jerry is the lighting rod.

gosox41
07-21-2003, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill.

LES GROBSTEIN

Listening may be a skill, but coming from Danny Mac is like the pot calling the kettle black. And of course who can forget all Mac's "passion" for sports where he gets suspended for getting physical with his radio partners.

Bottom line is when the All Star game comes to Wrigley, Sox players will be booed as well as any division rivals that are beating on the Cubs. Of course, most of the media won't make a big deal about it. Between the Cubune and Cub fans on the radio it will someohow become part of the Lovable Loser image.

Bob

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 08:55 AM
Why do talk shows and Chris Berman make such a big deal out of booing. There is booing at every sporting event I have ever been to. Cubs, AL Central, and Yankee players got booed. So what. Jerry Manuel got booed,so what, he gets booed every game. Everyone knew he would get booed weeks before the game was to be played. He had no business even being a coach for the All Star Game. His performance has been brutal. The only reason he was there was because it was his home park, and all the other managers want the time off. My response to the Grobber, Tommy Williams, and Berman, and their making a mountain out of a molehill------boo ! To criticize Sox fans for all the booing is ignorant. There is no way the crowd was 100% Sox fans.

D'Angelo F Death
07-21-2003, 09:06 AM
Booing Wood & Prior is perfectly acceptable not only because they're Cubs but because they are highly overrated...Wood's never won more than 13 games in a season, Prior's only won like 13 games in his career so far (granted, he may turn out to be brilliant)...but come on, it ain't like booing Dawson & Sandberg. Which would seem a bit silly.

Booing your mgr, especially one as rotten as Manuel, is as time-tested as the game itself.

jortafan
07-21-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by D'Angelo F Death
...but come on, it ain't like booing Dawson & Sandberg. Which would seem a bit silly.

Funny you should mention Sandberg. At the Sunday night celebrity softball game, Sandberg, along with Ernie Banks, actually got cheers from the Cellular Field crowd, although not as big as the cheers for Bo Jackson, Harold Baines or (earlier prior to the Futures Game) Carlton Fisk.

Personally, I say we do a "boo" for half-wit broadcasters who claim to be sports veterans but don't fully understand the fan mentality.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 09:34 AM
If this subject is so overblown,then why all the reponses here,on our show Sunday and in other places? That's because it's NOT overblown at all. The truth hurts. There are plenty of classy Cub Fans,but most of you here dont want to admit it. You all act like Sox Fans are polite at Comiskey to Cub Fans as a rule--GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! Many Cub Fans boo Frank at Wrigley simply for payback for the way Sosa gets treated at 'Comiskey'.It's your complete anti-Cub feeling which you're entitled to have,but when you are called out on it-you go off. Sammy Sosa was booed(no treated like crap)in Comiskey long before the cork incident. Why? Cause he's a Cub and he was given away by the Sox to the hated cross town rivals. Deal with it, he's become a HOFer in a Cub uniform---cork or not,he will be there someday.Yes,so will Frank BTW. I give the Sox WAY more credit than most Sox Fans give the Cubs. I saw some idiot here claim Baker was 'out-Managed' in the ASG. HUH??? That's cause he was wearng a Cub uniform. He was'nt out Managed,he did the right thing going to Wagner,Gagner and having Smoltz ready for the bottom of thd 9th(had their been one). It's not his fault Wagner and Gagner failed,any one else would have gone to those guys,it had nothing to do with getting outmanaged. Did Manuel out Manage Trammell by sending Graffinino up as a Pinch Hiitter Sat(when he homered)? Nobody said a thing about that because most are most interested in ripping him to pieces.He's not the reason Koch,Konerko(till the past 2 weeks at least)and Colon have bee-to be polite-subpar.If so,he should get credit for Loaiza and Frank having fine seasons,but nobody will go for that of course.
In 1998 when Brant Brown dropped the fly in Milw,10 Sox Fans in a row called McNeil and Boers to laugh their heads off. I then came on from County Stadium and reminded everyone that this was the same Brown who's homer in the 11th(June 5th that year)beat Tony Castillo(miss him guys?)and the Sox to trigger a sweep that weekend. My voice mail lit up like a Christmas Tree with Sox Fans screaming(and swearing). Stuff like 'we can make fun of you,but you can't do it back!'. Some can dish it,but cant take it.
What did I do in 1999 when Mike Caruso's homer finished off a Sox sweep? Instead of ripping on Sox Fans,I gave Manuel and the Sox credit,and ripped the Cubs a deserved 'new one'. So dont give me this crap about 'you media types dont give the Sox credit'. I picked the Sox to win the AL Central this season,and they are in the worst Division at least in the AL,so they have no excuse to not,unless they are not as good as many(me included)thought. I picked the Cubs 4th,never bought into that club--too many holes.
Lastly, I enjoy the heck out of this board(site),but if I see something I need to respond to--I'll do it. Besides,bet I give this site more on the air mentions than anyone--including Hosts who are Sox Fans.

D'Angelo F Death
07-21-2003, 09:42 AM
I'm not going to boo Grobstein although I think he's wrong on this. The man is some sort of weird baseball savant. I remember once I called into Dahl's show for a segment called "Les remembers better than you do"...in which callers described baseball games that had great sentimental value to them, and then Les would describe said game in much greater detail, proving that his memory of any Chicago baseball game was alarmingly photographic. Mine was pretty easy...I said, my dad took me to Comiskey in '83 and I saw back-to-back-to back homers, and then Les cuts in "that was an 11-0 victory over Baltimore, Britt Burns had a no-hitter until the 8th, the homeruns were by Paciorek, Baines, and Fisk", etc...he might have given the attendance figures, I dunno. I was a little spooked, to be honest.

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
If this subject is so overblown,then why all the reponses here,on our show Sunday and in other places? That's because it's NOT overblown at all. The truth hurts. There are plenty of classy Cub Fans,but most of you here dont want to admit it. You all act like Sox Fans are polite at Comiskey to Cub Fans as a rule--GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! Many Cub Fans boo Frank at Wrigley simply for payback for the way Sosa gets treated at 'Comiskey'.It's your complete anti-Cub feeling which you're entitled to have,but when you are called out on it-you go off. Sammy Sosa was booed(no treated like crap)in Comiskey long before the cork incident. Why? Cause he's a Cub and he was given away by the Sox to the hated cross town rivals. Deal with it, he's become a HOFer in a Cub uniform---cork or not,he will be there someday.Yes,so will Frank BTW. I give the Sox WAY more credit than most Sox Fans give the Cubs. I saw some idiot here claim Baker was 'out-Managed' in the ASG. HUH??? That's cause he was wearng a Cub uniform. He was'nt out Managed,he did the right thing going to Wagner,Gagner and having Smoltz ready for the bottom of thd 9th(had their been one). It's not his fault Wagner and Gagner failed,any one else would have gone to those guys,it had nothing to do with getting outmanaged. Did Manuel out Manage Trammell by sending Graffinino up as a Pinch Hiitter Sat(when he homered)? Nobody said a thing about that because most are most interested in ripping him to pieces.He's not the reason Koch,Konerko(till the past 2 weeks at least)and Colon have bee-to be polite-subpar.If so,he should get credit for Loaiza and Frank having fine seasons,but nobody will go for that of course.

Oh, so because we don't talk about the polite flubbie fans, we are somehow saying they don't exist? Hmmm... isn't that what people like Berman have been doing to Sox fans these past two weeks?

No one said Baker did a bad job, but Sciosia did a better one in the ASG. That's out managing him, period. Baker did what was expected of him and played it by the book. Sciosia went a step further and it ended up helping the AL win.

Sox fans boo Sham-ME, not because the Sox gave him away, but because of everything he represents that is wrong with baseball (Me first attitude, probable steroid useage and definitely cork useage, swinging for the fences all the time, failing miserably on defense on a regular basis, saying things like, "I saved baseball" and "This is Sham-ME's team.") Sox fans would treat anyone on our favorite team the same way if they did the same thing. It isn't becaus he is a flub, Les. It's because he's an egotistical, cheating, lying, wife-beating ass.

Manuel may not be the reason those guys are having bad years, but he is the reason they kept playing at the expense of more deserving players. For that he deserves to be booed. If Baker played Goodwin in RF and made ShamME a bench player so he could PH late in games, he would get the same treatment by flubbie fans and rightfully so.

Lastly, I enjoy the heck out of this board(site),but if I see something I need to respond to--I'll do it. Besides,bet I give this site more on the air mentions than anyone--including Hosts who are Sox Fans.

And we appreciate the time you spend here and the publicity you give us on the air. You are always welcome. Feel free to defend your POV vigorously. Just don't expect Sox fans to swallow it hook line and sinker when they disagree...

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 09:53 AM
Sox fans boo Sham-ME, not because the Sox gave him away, but because of everything he represents that is wrong with baseball (Me first attitude, probable steroid useage and definitely cork useage, swinging for the fences all the time, failing miserably on defense on a regular basis. It isn't becaus he is a flub, Les. It's because he's an egotistical, cheating, lying, wife-beating ass.

And we appreciate the time you spend here and the publicity you give us on the air. You are always welcome. Feel free to defend your POV vigorously. Just don't expect Sox fans to swallow it hook line and sinker when they disagree... [/B][/QUOTE]

I's because of the CONTRA opponions,in part that enjoy this board Voodoo. I dont WANT any Fans to swallow things as you put it-hook line and sinker when they disagree. But when I have a differing view,and expect(and get)plenty of opposing react as well. Besides,is'nt that in part what makes this fun???

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 09:55 AM
Grobber, the reason its getting a lot of space here and on your show is because Berman made an issue out of it. If he never said what he said, no one would have made anything out of it. And don't call Cub fans classy. I was at Wrigley for two of the games this year, and had beer thrown at me and peanuts just because I was wearing a Sox hat. Of course , no one who did this would show their face, and security would do nothing but tell me to take my hat off., which I would not do.

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I's because of the CONTRA opponions,in part that enjoy this board Voodoo. I dont WANT any Fans to swallow things as you put it-hook line and sinker when they disagree. But when I have a differing view,and expect(and get)plenty of opposing react as well. Besides,is'nt that in part what makes this fun???

I think so. Just Internet chat radio to a large extent. People can't call up the radio station from work, but they can post here...

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Grobber, the reason its getting a lot of space here and on your show is because Berman made an issue out of it. If he never said what he said, no one would have made anything out of it. And don't call Cub fans classy. I was at Wrigley for two of the games this year, and had beer thrown at me and peanuts just because I was wearing a Sox hat. Of course , no one who did this would show their face, and security would do nothing but tell me to take my hat off., which I would not do.


Obviously,you were the victom of an idiot. BUT the same thing happens at Comiskey to Cub Fans who dare show up when the 2 Chicago teams are playing there. The venum between the two sets of Fans will not go away anytime soon. It's sad you were nailed by stuff,but dont act like some Sox Fans dont do the same thing. We've all seen it at both Parks. It's a two way street(and a sad one at that).

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Obviously,you were the victom of an idiot. BUT the same thing happens at Comiskey to Cub Fans who dare show up when the 2 Chicago teams are playing there. The venum between the two sets of Fans will not go away anytime soon. It's sad you were nailed by stuff,but dont act like some Sox Fans dont do the same thing. We've all seen it at both Parks. It's a two way street(and a sad one at that).

I agree, but you don't hear about the crap that goes on a Wrigley. The Tribune writes about every fight that happened at Comiskey, but there were a few at Wrigley during the Sox/Cubs series.. Last Wednesday morning the lead story on the Tribune website was that 8 arrests marred the All Star Game. 5 were scalpers from NY, one guy tried to take a ticket from someone, one guy was trying to sell access to a restricted area, and one guy hopped into the dugout looking for autographs before the game. These "crimes" hardly "marred" the game, certainly not to the point where it should be the first story on the Tribune website. But as a Sox fans, this is what we deal with. The Tribune is trying to make Comiskey synonymous with danger,and that is just not the case. In the name of fair journalism, I wish they would put all the arrests at Wrigley on their website. The Tribune didn't even consider booing a story and their looking for anything negative about the Sox.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I agree, but you don't hear about the crap that goes on a Wrigley. The Tribune writes about every fight that happened at Comiskey, but there were a few at Wrigley during the Sox/Cubs series.. Last Wednesday morning the lead story on the Tribune website was that 8 arrests marred the All Star Game. 5 were scalpers from NY, one guy tried to take a ticket from someone, one guy was trying to sell access to a restricted area, and one guy hopped into the dugout looking for autographs before the game. These "crimes" hardly "marred" the game, certainly not to the point where it should be the first story on the Tribune website. But as a Sox fans, this is what we deal with. The Tribune is trying to make Comiskey synonymous with danger,and that is just not the case. In the name of fair journalism, I wish they would put all the arrests at Wrigley on their website. The Tribune didn't even consider booing a story and their looking for anything negative about the Sox.

I know what you are saying about the Trib. I cant speak for them--I have never worked for that Company,and but have plenty of Friends in the business who do.
I on the other hand have mentioned both on the air and at speaking engagments,that Wrigleyville does have a higher crime rate than the area around 'Comiskey Park' does--and that's on game days(or nights)or non game days. Many Sox Fans dont beleive it,but it's true--at least according to Police statistics over 20 years. I dont think you have ever heard this on any other talk shows,,,not even on the Sox Flag Ship for which I currently work.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
If this subject is so overblown,then why all the reponses here,on our show Sunday and in other places? That's because it's NOT overblown at all. The truth hurts. There are plenty of classy Cub Fans,but most of you here dont want to admit it. You all act like Sox Fans are polite at Comiskey to Cub Fans as a rule--GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! Many Cub Fans boo Frank at Wrigley simply for payback for the way Sosa gets treated at 'Comiskey'.It's your complete anti-Cub feeling which you're entitled to have,but when you are called out on it-you go off. Sammy Sosa was booed(no treated like crap)in Comiskey long before the cork incident. Why? Cause he's a Cub and he was given away by the Sox to the hated cross town rivals. Deal with it, he's become a HOFer in a Cub uniform---cork or not,he will be there someday.Yes,so will Frank BTW. I give the Sox WAY more credit than most Sox Fans give the Cubs. I saw some idiot here claim Baker was 'out-Managed' in the ASG. HUH??? That's cause he was wearng a Cub uniform. He was'nt out Managed,he did the right thing going to Wagner,Gagner and having Smoltz ready for the bottom of thd 9th(had their been one). It's not his fault Wagner and Gagner failed,any one else would have gone to those guys,it had nothing to do with getting outmanaged. Did Manuel out Manage Trammell by sending Graffinino up as a Pinch Hiitter Sat(when he homered)? Nobody said a thing about that because most are most interested in ripping him to pieces.He's not the reason Koch,Konerko(till the past 2 weeks at least)and Colon have bee-to be polite-subpar.If so,he should get credit for Loaiza and Frank having fine seasons,but nobody will go for that of course.
In 1998 when Brant Brown dropped the fly in Milw,10 Sox Fans in a row called McNeil and Boers to laugh their heads off. I then came on from County Stadium and reminded everyone that this was the same Brown who's homer in the 11th(June 5th that year)beat Tony Castillo(miss him guys?)and the Sox to trigger a sweep that weekend. My voice mail lit up like a Christmas Tree with Sox Fans screaming(and swearing). Stuff like 'we can make fun of you,but you can't do it back!'. Some can dish it,but cant take it.
What did I do in 1999 when Mike Caruso's homer finished off a Sox sweep? Instead of ripping on Sox Fans,I gave Manuel and the Sox credit,and ripped the Cubs a deserved 'new one'. So dont give me this crap about 'you media types dont give the Sox credit'. I picked the Sox to win the AL Central this season,and they are in the worst Division at least in the AL,so they have no excuse to not,unless they are not as good as many(me included)thought. I picked the Cubs 4th,never bought into that club--too many holes.
Lastly, I enjoy the heck out of this board(site),but if I see something I need to respond to--I'll do it. Besides,bet I give this site more on the air mentions than anyone--including Hosts who are Sox Fans.

My gosh! Talk about rationalizing!

Where to begin....

First of all, most of the obnoxious yelling and taunting I heard during the Sox-Cubs series was from Cubs fans visiting OUR house. Besides Mr. F-Bomb, there was the clown who at the June 27 game yelled, "Come on Frank! Lift your skirt a little higher, and you might hit something!" (Whatever that meant.) Of course, Frank obliged by taking the next pitch out of the park, and the guy had enough common sense to shut up.

Then there was the Cubs fan, who after we sang OUR traditional "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" (which Nancy Faust confirmed to me goes back to 1976 or '77), some idiot Cubs fan blurts out for all to hear, "Oh, yeah, real original."

That was in OUR house, Les. So don't tell me about how classy Cubs fans are, or that they're retaliating for anything.

As far as comments about Baker being outmanaged, Joe Buck and Tim McCarver implied exactly the same thing during the network broadcast of the All-Star Game when they praised Mike Scoscia for holding back Hank Blalock while Baker used up most of his bench by the seventh inning. The last I looked, those guys weren't Sox fans.

As far as Graffanino's pinch HR the other night, I recall reading at least a few posts noting that Manuel did get it right for once. But as Dave Wills is fond of saying, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile." One good move does not make up for nearly 90 games of incessant tinkering.

Now, Les, I will grant you that you are not as bad as most Cubs fans I know. However, until you actually learn to understand the Sox fan mentality, you can't intelligently comment on our behavior. I'm not using this to excuse the boors you described, but there is no way you can understand us. Again, I highly recommend that you read PHG's "86 Years and Counting." If you truly understand what he's saying there, you can then say you understand us.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I's because of the CONTRA opponions,in part that enjoy this board Voodoo. I dont WANT any Fans to swallow things as you put it-hook line and sinker when they disagree. But when I have a differing view,and expect(and get)plenty of opposing react as well. Besides,is'nt that in part what makes this fun???

I kind of view these message boards as like a bunch of guys (and since I have a corneal dystrophy and the beginnings of cataracts to go with my myopia, I feel comfortable in counting Steff as one of the guys if only for the inability to see past my nose) sitting around in a bar arguing Chicago baseball, without the messy brawl and arrests that follow at the bar.

adsit
07-21-2003, 10:32 AM
Les Grobstein wrote:

Some of you just make me laugh!!! As Danny Mac would say...'listening is a skill!' and some folks here dont have that skill.

I'd have to be skilled indeed to hear your show, Les. I live in Massachusetts. Yet, I didn't have to. I'd heard enough of you by the time I left Chicago in '87 to nail most of the points you'd make the moment I read you were behind the mic yesterday talking about the boo-birds at the ASG.

BUT......to boo a guy(no matter whom he is)wearing a White Sox Uniform in the Sox own Ballpark on a World(not nationwide but worldwide)stage is crassy and had NOTHING to do with showing how much emtotion you have for your team. It's ignorant!

I take this to mean that, when the whole world's watching (but oddly, only then), Sox fans should show respect for their own uniform. I contend that they did just that when they booed JM, since a vast majority of us believe he no longer rates the privilege of wearing one. The insinuation that you'd expect nothing better than crassy behavior from Sox fans fails to take into account the desperation we feel toward a front office that embraces mediocrity, and is indifferent toward us. If the booing gave them a black eye in the middle of their dog and pony show, good! Will they.... FINALLY... get... the... POINT???!!! Guess not.

Does it hurt our national reputation any? I'm out here... I say it couldn't be hurt much worse than it has already, thanks to selective reporting in general, and the Tribune Co.'s PR juggernaut in particuar.

Also,most of you here dont remember or DONT WANT TO REMEMBER, but in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen and Ozzie Guillen represented the Sox in the AS game at Wrigley,the mostly pro Cub crowd there cheered them,no one booed.

"Cub fans wouldn't do that." I nailed it! (happy Snoopy dance). Though I remember the game, I don't remember that. Perhaps the rivalry is more intense now that the teams actually play one another.

I do remember, however, when Boston hosted the '99 ASG, the Yankee players got booed. No national press about classless Red Sox fans, though, because it's EXPECTED. It would have been news if it didn't happen. Roger Clemens, who didn't play that year but was there anyway for some pregame sponsor event, got booed so loudly the event was ruined. Was that somehow okay because the Bozos-YankMes rivalry is part of "baseball legend?" What a double standard. Sox fans recognize those easily... we have been battling double standards for years.

That said,it's a free country and you do have the right to boo anyone you want including your own Manager wearing a Sox uniform,but guess what(again),I have the same right to my oppinion and I think I gave it.

Les, I give you props for having the sack to post here defending your POV, but this last was a little too much of a soft-pedal. You're slashing at us in the most specific terms for having no class, only to tell us in the end something we already know... we have the right to do it and it's okay? How like a Cub fan, to bark for thirty seconds then roll over... "please love me, please scratch my belly, aren't I cute?"

Something else Sox fans don't do.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I know what you are saying about the Trib. I cant speak for them--I have never worked for that Company,and but have plenty of Friends in the business who do.
I on the other hand have mentioned both on the air and at speaking engagments,that Wrigleyville does have a higher crime rate than the area around 'Comiskey Park' does--and that's on game days(or nights)or non game days. Many Sox Fans dont beleive it,but it's true--at least according to Police statistics over 20 years. I dont think you have ever heard this on any other talk shows,,,not even on the Sox Flag Ship for which I currently work.

In fact a former employee of that station helped perpetuate the myth of "dangerous Comiskey" when he was allegedly jumped by thugs in Armour Square Park. Of course, he said he did nothing to provoke the attack, and of course it made all the papers.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
In fact a former employee of that station helped perpetuate the myth of "dangerous Comiskey" when he was allegedly jumped by thugs in Armour Square Park. Of course, he said he did nothing to provoke the attack, and of course it made all the papers.


You talking about Bill Simonson? Seems like light years ago that it happened(even tho it was only about 4 years ago). Jimbos got some bad publicity that they did NOT deserve. I was at the 'Other' Station then. People can get beat up near Comiskey,Wrigley,UIC Pavilion,United Center and even in the Burbs-anywhere!. That incident was ugly,but got blown out of proportion.

cheeses_h_rice
07-21-2003, 10:47 AM
A few points have been mentioned here that bear repeating, IMO:

1. The Cubs/Sox fan dynamic is a lot different now than it was in 1990, and I ask Les to reconsider his "Cub fans wouldn't do that" stance in this light. Since 1997, the Sox and Cubs have played each other at least 3 times a year, and often 6 times a year. This equals about 40-45,000 folks PER GAME getting a chance to get riled up at fans of the other team. I know personally it's hardened my view toward idiot Flub fans, and I didn't even like them to begin with (in fact, it's idiot Flub fans who actually actively turned me against the Flubs, when I lived 3 blocks from Wrigley in the late '80s). And I can guarantee you that any Sox, Cards, Astros player that plays in the next AS game at Wrigley will get his ass booed off, too.

2. Sox fans boo Sham-ME for his actions, hypocricies, cheating and all-around egomania, not for "how the trade turned out." Please, get that straight. I wouldn't take Sosa back on our team for all the tea in China, buddy, to quote that guy on the Steve Dahl show.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 10:50 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by adsit
[B]Les Grobstein wrote:




I take this to mean that, when the whole world's watching (but oddly, only then), Sox fans should show respect for their own uniform. I contend that they did just that when they booed JM, since a vast majority of us believe he no longer rates the privilege of wearing one. The insinuation that you'd expect nothing better than crassy behavior from Sox fans fails to take into account the desperation we feel toward a front office that embraces mediocrity, and is indifferent toward us. If the booing gave them a black eye in the middle of their dog and pony show, good! Will they.... FINALLY... get... the... POINT???!!! Guess not.


Dont you get it? The Sox Organization(like many others)will not do something(like fire the Manager)just because the Fans and Media say they should. In 1996,everyone knew Bevington had to go,but the Sox brought him back for 1997 out of being stubborn. The more people call for a Sox Manager's head,,the more likely he is to be kept on--right or wrong. BTW,how many called for Gene Lamont's head thruout his stay here? He had a winning record in 1992,won the Division and was AL MGR of the year in 93,had the team in 1st by a game in 94 when the strike hit,and was given a low ball contract for 95 when their mind was made up to get rid of him at first chance(getting swept 4 straight in Cleveland). Be careful what you wish for. You may get it(another goof like Bevington)!

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 11:19 AM
Dont you get it? The Sox Organization(like many others)will not do something(like fire the Manager)just because the Fans and Media say they should. In 1996,everyone knew Bevington had to go,but the Sox brought him back for 1997 out of being stubborn. The more people call for a Sox Manager's head,,the more likely he is to be kept on--right or wrong. BTW,how many called for Gene Lamont's head thruout his stay here? He had a winning record in 1992,won the Division and was AL MGR of the year in 93,had the team in 1st by a game in 94 when the strike hit,and was given a low ball contract for 95 when their mind was made up to get rid of him at first chance(getting swept 4 straight in Cleveland). Be careful what you wish for. You may get it(another goof like Bevington)!

We know all about how stubborn Jerry Reinsdorf is. I've been on the record in more than one place as saying that Manuel may very well stay all the way through the 2004 season when his contract expires.

It has been written in columns and posted on message boards more times than I can count that a lot of this ownership's actions are simply done to spite someone. This is why this is the second most unpopular ownership in town. We can go back to the dissing of Bill Veeck (perceived or real) when they first bought the club, their holding the state hostage to get a new ballpark built, their firing of Fisk on the road, their not-so-subtle message to Jeff Torborg to get out of town, the items you mentioned, the White Flag Trade, their stubborn refusal to admit anything was wrong with their ball park for a decade...the list goes on and on and on.

We get it all right. And that's why we do things like boo the manager, the symbol of the idiocy of the front office of this club, even at an event like the All-Star Game.

As PHG said in his "86 Years and Waiting," Sox fans hate losing. Period.

The media has done a swell job of painting us as lackluster fans who really don't care, and that's why so many of us don't show up at games. It's just the opposite, and last Tuesday showed that. We care so much that many of us won't put another dime in this ownership group's pocket until they sell the club. Those of us who won't go that far will make our feelings known no matter what the ownership feels about us.

That's not being uncaring. That's being passionate.

white sox bill
07-21-2003, 11:36 AM
Personally I like Les a lot, despite his baseball team taste. But hey we can boo whoever we want (we paid for a tix @ ASG).

Remeber, if we were politically correct, we'd be Scrub fans!

FoulTerritory
07-21-2003, 11:38 AM
After the arduous journey of reading all the posts in this thread, there are a couple things I'd like to add.

First, I think I am the "idiot" Grobber refered to that said that Baker was outmanaged in the all-star game. Or at least, I'm one of a few idiots that has suggested that. But, just speaking for myself, such a claim was not made based on Bakers use of the pitching staff, as Grobber implied, but rather his sort of random unskilled substitutions of position players . . . as where, even had Hank B. not hit the homer, I think a solid argument could be made that Soscia, as Torn Labrum also pointed out, had a definite plan in mind to generate certain matchups via strategically thinking ahead with regards to his method of substitution. But Baker just seemed to be randomly substituting as if it was not a "this time it counts" all-star game.

Also, it seems that in so many words, Grobber has implied that Sox fans are incapable of respecting Cub players. This has not been true in my experience. I know several Sox fans that respected Mark Grace's nitty gritty, no batting gloves, sorta blue collared style. I know that at my dad's meat market almost everyone who works there is a Sox fan, but Billy Williams is a regular customer who gets major respect from all the Sox nuts. We even put his pic on the wall. Once, when I was a kid, he offered me a Cubs hat for carrying his groceries out to his car. I said, "no thanks, I'm a Sox fan," and he just laughed and said he respected my loyalty. My point, we are human. Not just cub-hating machines.

However . . . we are also up against a seemingly unstoppable force of Cub-loving propoganda. And the booing at the all-star game was meant to be very symbolic of our frustration of this steamroller known as Cubdom. But it doesn't mean we can't tell the difference, and ackowledge the difference, between a solid repsectable Cub player and an egomaniacal hoppin' chest tappin attention hog like Sosa, or a good and bad managerial move by Baker.

Also, regarding Grobber's last post. Sure, the Sox have a history acting irrationally stubborn towards the complaints of the fans and the media, but what else are we to do? By your logic, should we start cheering manuel on, chanting his name, etc, so that the Sox will think we want him as Manager, and do the opposit -- fire him?

Brad

joecrede
07-21-2003, 11:48 AM
What do you think of the Cubs fans who cheer Sosa, Les?

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
After the arduous journey of reading all the posts in this thread, there are a couple things I'd like to add.

Also, regarding Grobber's last post. Sure, the Sox have a history acting irrationally stubborn towards the complaints of the fans and the media, but what else are we to do? By your logic, should we start cheering manuel on, chanting his name, etc, so that the Sox will think we want him as Manager, and do the opposit -- fire him?

Brad

Brad, as I said,it's a free country---boo ANYONE you like anytime.I on the other hand(and I'm a FAN like you when I post here--not a media person,I'm not at work right now),I have the same rights.
As I think you and others here understand,your booing Manuel,Konerko,Thomas(earlier in the year of course)and others wont have any effect on the Sox front office decisions. They will do what they want,and in fact may be slower to act the more Fans(and reporters) scream for changes. On the North Side,there has been plenty of yelling for changes that dont come either. You can say 'if we dont show up,it puts pressure on them to do things'. BUT....Cub Fans can say 'since we're showing up,we have put pressure on Tribune Company to spend more'. I have news for us all.....it doees'nt matter either way----they are all going to do what the hell they want wether we as Fans like it or not. Blackhawk Fans have stopped showing up since they have'nt done squat since Mike Keenan was fired. Has that put pressure on Bill Wirtz? Uh Uh! So Sox Fans staying away(except when they face the Cubs etc)wont do a darned thing to help make this team World Series Contender. Cub Fans SHOWING UP has'nt helped either. Face it, we(Chicagoans)have a losing situation with none of the big 5 teams close to a Title.

Hangar18
07-21-2003, 11:57 AM
Les, I admire you defending your comments, but I too will
still have to put my foot down on this one. I know you didnt
mean it personally, but the fact is We arent classless fans.
I was a really young kid, and I remember Carl Yaz's Last at bat in
old Comiskey, and how the fans gave him a standing O, and when
he actually crushed a pitch into the upper deck for what
amounted to his LAST HR here, he was given another standing
O. That surely wasnt classless at all. The booing was a nice
way to show EVERYONE on the planet, that in fact NO....the cubbies are NOT that lovable, and are detested in some places.
You live here, you know how we feel about this team...
You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that, Because,
As Im sure YOUR aware if youve read any of my posts, I cant stand the Media and how they Perpuate Myths and Print flat out
Lies about this team. What you say influences a bunch of Nimrods in this town that like that other team, and the proverbial Japanese tourist in town on business. Your opinion your entitled to surely, but when Mr Nakamura goes back to Kyoto,
and tells friends about the Classless Sox Fans he "heard" about while he was here,,,,,that I have a problem with.

Hangar18
07-21-2003, 11:59 AM
By the way Les, thanks for taking the time, I hope this
gives you a better understanding on why things looked
the way they did last tuesday. god bless sox fans :smile:

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Brad, as I said,it's a free country---boo ANYONE you like anytime.I on the other hand(and I'm a FAN like you when I post here--not a media person,I'm not at work right now),I have the same rights.
As I think you and others here understand,your booing Manuel,Konerko,Thomas(earlier in the year of course)and others wont have any effect on the Sox front office decisions. They will do what they want,and in fact may be slower to act the more Fans(and reporters) scream for changes. On the North Side,there has been plenty of yelling for changes that dont come either. You can say 'if we dont show up,it puts pressure on them to do things'. BUT....Cub Fans can say 'since we're showing up,we have put pressure on Tribune Company to spend more'. I have news for us all.....it doees'nt matter either way----they are all going to do what the hell they want wether we as Fans like it or not. Blackhawk Fans have stopped showing up since they have'nt done squat since Mike Keenan was fired. Has that put pressure on Bill Wirtz? Uh Uh! So Sox Fans staying away(except when they face the Cubs etc)wont do a darned thing to help make this team World Series Contender. Cub Fans SHOWING UP has'nt helped either. Face it, we(Chicagoans)have a losing situation with none of the big 5 teams close to a Title.

Wirtz being forced to pay to get the Hawks radio time is damned funny. I'm not saying he will ever manage to build a winner, but it has to be a blow to his ego.

Have Flubbie fans ever tried not attending? The problem there is that the Trib markets the ballpark and that brings in a bunch of fans every year just for the "fun in the sun" concept. Flubbie fans need to make a stand, but maybe it won't help anyway.

Fan perception did help the Bears get Mikey out of the front office and force them to bring in a GM and that team sells out every game every year and gets guaranteed money from the national contract. So it can make a difference, but it depends on the ego of the owner in question and what their priorities are. Reinsy clearly prioritizes cash flow and his partners who give him power like it that way. It's just a business to them. Reinsy made a good face for the team with his comments about "wanting to win a championship in baseball", but the fans no longer buy it and with good reason.

Have to keep on keeing on though. Now it's a test of wills and Reinsy is losing...

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What do you think of the Cubs fans who cheer Sosa, Les?

He's a Cub---that's all that matters. I have talked with many Cub Fans that are angry he corked his bat,and that he often fans going for a homer when all they need is a single,BUT many of them say they will support him if for no other reason--because you Sox Fans want them to turn on him and boo him. Sox Fans LOVE to do and say things that piss off Cub Fans--we can agree on that. And guess what,Cub Fans feel the same way about doing things to tick Sox Fans off. Someone on this thread mentioned how some Cub Fan ticked off Frank in Wrigley with 'The Big Skirt' reference. Is that any different to the 'Shammy' or 'Soso' or 'Scrubby' comments made here? I think not. When Cub Fans give Sammy a standing ovation with each homer or when he makes catches like the one he made in the Sat game on the South Side,they could care less if Sox Fans dont like it. Just like you guys dont care if Chris Berman or anyone else gets on you all for booing at the ASG. One last thing, the Cubs-Sox Fans dislike is far worse than even Yanks-Mets in NY is. I was at all 5 games of the 2000 WS in NYC and that stuff there was'nt close to the venum we have here.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
By the way Les, thanks for taking the time, I hope this
gives you a better understanding on why things looked
the way they did last tuesday. god bless sox fans :smile:


Are you kidding? I always have a ball here.I 'plug' this site on the air more than even my own,and I have never mentioned any Cub Fan sites on the air.That should show you how much of a blast I have on here. Some folks understand where I'm coming from and some go crazy if my oppinion is different that theirs is. Bottom line is, I stand by my statement that I am as fair as any sos-called reporter in this town to the White Sox,and I probably hammer my beloved Cubs as much as anyone(mabey Murph-another Cub Fan on the other Station does as well). I have never given the Cubs 'free lunch' and wont now. That said, I will not criticize Cub Fans(real Fans.not the tourists who infest the Ball Park) for attending as many games as they want. Why should Fans of a team deprive themselves of their right to enjoy their favorite team in the Sun during summer each year? Dont we have anough lousy weather in the winter? Cubs Fans are NOT supporting Tribune Company,they are rooting for a piece of cloth that says CUBS. White Sox Fans are NOT supporting Jerry Reinsdorf---they are backing a uniform that says SOX on it.

A.T. Money
07-21-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum

As PHG said in his "86 Years and Waiting," Sox fans hate losing. Period.



Where can I find this article?

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
Where can I find this article?

Great...I've been mentioning it, and I can't find a link to it. There used to be one on the home page, but I'll be darned if I can find it. George????

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
If this subject is so overblown,then why all the reponses here,on our show Sunday and in other places? That's because it's NOT overblown at all. The truth hurts. There are plenty of classy Cub Fans,but most of you here dont want to admit it. You all act like Sox Fans are polite at Comiskey to Cub Fans as a rule--GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! {clip of the rest}

Comparing the '03 ASG to the 1990 ASG is apples to oranges. Compare it please the '83 to the '90.

Les, answer my questions.

1. Did Sox fans at the '83 ASG boo the Cubbie representatives?

2. If the ASG were held at The Shrine (aka the corporate named Wrigley Field) now would Cubbie fans boo Sox players?

3. Did Cubbie fans participate in booing Manuel and/or the Cards representatives at the '03 ASG?

4. Imagine this scenario, the ASG is being held at The Shrine in '02. Don Baylor is on the coaching staff of the NL team. How would Cubbie fans have greeted Don Baylor?

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Comparing the '03 ASG to the 1990 ASG is apples to oranges. Compare it please the '83 to the '90.

Les, answer my questions.

1. Did Sox fan in '83 boo the Cubbie representatives?

2. If the ASG were held at The Shrine (aka the corporate named Wrigley Field) would Cubbie fans boo Sox players?

3. Did Cubbie fans participate in booing Manuel and/or the Cards representatives at the '03 ASG?


OK Doc, here you are.........

1)In 1983,Lee Smith and Leon Durham were given polite applause at Comiskey--no noticable booing. Not even when Smith struck out Ron Kittle late in the game.Of course Kittle got the biggest hand of the night-and should have.

2)If Wrigley(not a corporate name-but named in memory of William Wrigley Sr-sorry to kill your thunder there)hosted an Allstar Game,Frank would likely be the only Sox player that would be booed-just payback for the way Sammy gets it at Comiskey. Maggs,Loaiza and Everett would not have been booed,and in 1990 as I said,Guillen and Thigpen were given a warm round a applause at Wrigley.

3)I doubt Cub Fans,or Fans of any other team(other than Sox Fans of course) booed Manuel. As for boing the Cards,,some did,some did not(I spoke to some and got mixed reactions to that). Not that is has anything to do with this year,but WAY back in 1962 at Wrigley, the Cards Stan Musial got the biggest ovation-even more than Banks,Williams or George Altman did.And Cub Fans hate for the Cardinals is alot longer and more obvious than for the Sox,yet they cheered a Cardinal legend who made a career(like so many did)of killing the Cubs.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
OK Doc, here you are.........

1)In 1983,Lee Smith and Leon Durham were given polite applause at Comiskey--no noticable booing. Not even when Smith struck out Ron Kittle late in the game.Of course Kittle got the biggest hand of the night-and should have.

2)If Wrigley(not a corporate name-but named in memory of William Wrigley Sr-sorry to kill your thunder there)hosted an Allstar Game,Frank would likely be the only Sox player that would be booed-just payback for the way Sammy gets it at Comiskey. Maggs,Loaiza and Everett would not have been booed,and in 1990 as I said,Guillen and Thigpen were given a warm round a applause at Wrigley.

3)I doubt Cub Fans,or Fans of any other team(other than Sox Fans of course) booed Manuel. As for boing the Cards,,some did,some did not(I spoke to some and got mixed reactions to that). Not that is has anything to do with this year,but WAY back in 1962 at Wrigley, the Cards Stan Musial got the biggest ovation-even more than Banks,Williams or George Altman did.And Cub Fans hate for the Cardinals is alot longer and more obvious than for the Sox,yet they cheered a Cardinal legend who made a career(like so many did)of killing the Cubs.

1) Once again, 1983 was before interleague play, so there is no comparison. Interleague play changed everything.

2) I also believe that Wrigley named the ballpark after himself long before his death, but I won't swear to it because I don't have the dates in front of me.

3) Sox fans of my generation hate the Yankees, and even though there is less of a rivalry now than there was in the '50s and '60s, most Sox fans I know hate Steinbrenner as much as fans of any other club hate him. Still, Roger Clemens received a nice ovation, iirc.

joecrede
07-21-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
He's a Cub---that's all that matters. I have talked with many Cub Fans that are angry he corked his bat,and that he often fans going for a homer when all they need is a single,BUT many of them say they will support him if for no other reason--because you Sox Fans want them to turn on him and boo him. Sox Fans LOVE to do and say things that piss off Cub Fans--we can agree on that. And guess what,Cub Fans feel the same way about doing things to tick Sox Fans off. Someone on this thread mentioned how some Cub Fan ticked off Frank in Wrigley with 'The Big Skirt' reference. Is that any different to the 'Shammy' or 'Soso' or 'Scrubby' comments made here? I think not. When Cub Fans give Sammy a standing ovation with each homer or when he makes catches like the one he made in the Sat game on the South Side,they could care less if Sox Fans dont like it. Just like you guys dont care if Chris Berman or anyone else gets on you all for booing at the ASG. One last thing, the Cubs-Sox Fans dislike is far worse than even Yanks-Mets in NY is. I was at all 5 games of the 2000 WS in NYC and that stuff there was'nt close to the venum we have here.

I found Cubs fans who cheered Sosa after the corked bat incident to be classless. It confirmed the belief held by many that most of them don't give a damn about the game or the rule of law.

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 01:50 PM
3) Sox fans of my generation hate the Yankees, and even though there is less of a rivalry now than there was in the '50s and '60s, most Sox fans I know hate Steinbrenner as much as fans of any other club hate him. Still, Roger Clemens received a nice ovation, iirc. [/B][/QUOTE]

It was such a big rivalry in the 50's and 60's my grandma would go to every game. What is really ashame is that the Sox play 3 home games against the Yankees per year now. This year their series is the final home series of the season. The schedule maker should be shot.

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 01:53 PM
2. ‘Frank would have been booed, but Maggs and Loaiza would not have been booed.’ - Grobber

I disagree. Cubbie fans would have booed Maggs, Loaiza or anyone else wearing a Sox uniform.

3. “I doubt if Cub fans, or fans of any other team (other than Sox fans of course) booed Manuel.” - Grobber

Of course that is highly speculative and just your opinion (and you know what they say about opinions…)

Question #4 (4. Imagine this scenario, the ASG is being held at The Shrine in '02. Don Baylor is on the coaching staff of the NL team. How would Cubbie fans have greeted Don Baylor?) was untouched by Grobber, no doubt because he knows that Cubbie fans certainly would have booed Baylor - thus destroying the basis for his 'Cubbie fans are better than Sox fans' load of crap.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
2. ‘Frank would have been booed, but Maggs and Loaiza would not have been booed.’ - Grobber


Question #4 (4. Imagine this scenario, the ASG is being held at The Shrine in '02. Don Baylor is on the coaching staff of the NL team. How would Cubbie fans have greeted Don Baylor?) was untouched by Grobber, no doubt because he knows that Cubbie fans certainly would have booed Baylor - thus destroying the basis for his 'Cubbie fans are better than Sox fans' load of crap.

I did not see your 4th question,but they would never have booed Baylor the way Manuel got it Tuesday. Thing is we'll neveer know will we? It's my silly oppinion against you silly oppinion! :D:

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I found Cubs fans who cheered Sosa after the corked bat incident to be classless. It confirmed the belief held by many that most of them don't give a damn about the game or the rule of law.

That's YOUR oppinion! When Belle corked his bat and had a team mate(Jason Grimsley)steal it,and then Belle was signed by the Sox in 1997,that was OK right??? Give me a break. You guys welcomed him with open arms as you did Wife beater Wil Cordero in 1998. Are you saying it's OK for the Sox to bring in a Corker(Belle)and Wife Beater(Cordero),but Sosa is not OK? Try that one on someone else!!!

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
That's YOUR oppinion! When Belle corked his bat and had a team mate(Jason Grimsley)steal it,and then Belle was signed by the Sox in 1997,that was OK right??? Give me a break. You guys welcomed him with open arms as you did Wife beater Wil Cordero in 1998. Are you saying it's OK for the Sox to bring in a Corker(Belle)and Wife Beater(Cordero),but Sosa is not OK? Try that one on someone else!!!

Really? You have evidence that those guys were widely accepted by Sox fans? Neither one of them is very popular around these parts...

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
That's YOUR oppinion! When Belle corked his bat and had a team mate(Jason Grimsley)steal it,and then Belle was signed by the Sox in 1997,that was OK right??? Give me a break. You guys welcomed him with open arms as you did Wife beater Wil Cordero in 1998. Are you saying it's OK for the Sox to bring in a Corker(Belle)and Wife Beater(Cordero),but Sosa is not OK? Try that one on someone else!!!

Those two were not popular at all at Comiskey. The thing is ,Sammy is both a bat corking cheater and wife beater.

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 02:11 PM
Hey Grobber, Manuel is having a bad year, the fans don't appreciate his performance. If the game was held at Wrigley this year, and for some reason Alfonseca was named to the team, would the yuppies put their cellphones in their pockets and give him a nice ovation?

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Really? You have evidence that those guys were widely accepted by Sox fans? Neither one of them is very popular around these parts...

In 1998 when Belle had a terrible first half but great second half(when it meant nothing)all I heard from Sox Fans was that it was Sosa-McGwire this and Sosa-McGwire that---nothing about Albert Belle's great second half. Sox Fans could'nt wait to embrace Belle's 'awsome' if meaningless second half when the Sox were long out of the race. Cordero was treated warmly when he was here in Chicago.Manuel wanted him back for 1999 in fact by Schuler said no way and got him out of here. It was'nt untill Peter Angelos stupidly signed Belle away from the Sox that I ever heard any Sox Fans start ripping him again. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander,but some get PO ed when I point that out.

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Those two were not popular at all at Comiskey. The thing is ,Sammy is both a bat corking cheater and wife beater.

Les is a lead member of the Sosa Ass Licking Society, sorry Les but it's true.

Les won't say if he thinks Sosa lied about using the illegal bat on purpose or not. Of course if Les were to follow his pattern of "we can't read Sosa's mind" logic to the full then Les wouldn't be able to say if he believes if OJ killed Nicole either.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Hey Grobber, Manuel is having a bad year, the fans don't appreciate his performance. If the game was held at Wrigley this year, and for some reason Alfonseca was named to the team, would the yuppies put their cellphones in their pockets and give him a nice ovation?

That's a pretty stupid question! You're smarter than that. Why would anyone having a season like Alfonseca get named to an Allstar team?? If he was having the type of season that would warrant an Allstar birth,he would'nt get booed. Comiskey has as many cellphones(per capita)as Wrigley does. There are also as many yuppies percentage wise at Sox Games as there are Cub Games. The old days of the Blue Collar Sox Fans at Comiskey are gone! The current Ownership chased them away.There are way more Suites and Club Level yuppie type seats at Comiskey than Wrigley will ever have. Nice try tho!!

A.T. Money
07-21-2003, 02:18 PM
I didn't like Belle at all after bat gate. I wasn't even all that sad to see him go either....

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
I didn't like Belle at all after bat gate. I wasn't even all that sad to see him go either....


Oh yeah? Bet you welcomed him with open arms when they signed him! And why not? It was dedigned to weaken Cleveland and give the Sox another bopper. Nice idea that just did'nt work.

Chisox353014
07-21-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Really? You have evidence that those guys were widely accepted by Sox fans? Neither one of them is very popular around these parts...

Wil Cordero is probably the only Sox player I've ever actually rooted against while he was in a Sox uniform. Couldn't stand that guy. And Albert "I put up monster numbers when the season is already over" Belle is not exactly my favorite Sox player of all time.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Les is a lead member of the Sosa Ass Licking Society, sorry Les but it's true.

Les won't say if he thinks Sosa lied about using the illegal bat on purpose or not. Of course if Les were to follow his pattern of "we can't read Sosa's mind" logic to the full then Les wouldn't be able to say if he believes if OJ killed Nicole either.

You're right I wont say so,because I dont know--and you dont either. But nice try as always Doc!!! Gee this is fun!!!!!

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 02:27 PM
I know Alfonseca would never make the All Star team. Thats my point. Manuel is no All Star, his performance running this team is no better than Alfonseca's in the Cub bullpen.Although I enjoyed his performance at Comiskey. Manuel deserved the boos. Belle was not well embraced here. The much hoped for spike in attendance after his signing never occurred. Cordero was not popular with Sox fans either. When both left the Sox, it wasn't that big of story. Nobody really cared.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 02:32 PM
I know I'm going to get destroyed for all of this, but most people on this site really are very egocentric when it comes to discussing the Sox and Cubs. If you've never met an intelligent, baseball-loving Cubs fan, then you're not looking very hard. I have met tons. Half of my family, neighbors, relatives. Most of them believe in all of the same important points in baseball that we do...tradition, winning, ethics. Are there also lots who just get drunk, scream about Sammy, and look at girls in Bikinis...yes.

Also, while at Comiskey, I have been seated around tons of drunk idiots yelling things at Indians fans, throwing things, not having a clue what's going on. There are also tons of people on Cell Phones. I'm not trying to say that Cubs fans are better or even close by any means...I'm just noting that you can't be blind to everything, realistically.

Do I agree with Les...on the manager, yes...on the players, no. I just wish people could look at this more realistically. I think there is some sort of power trip here that everyone wants to show up the media guy. Sorry Les, but I just look at ya like another guy with an opinion. Let's not start talking about the Tribune (who Les can't control), and other things totally unrelated to this subject.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I know Alfonseca would never make the All Star team. Thats my point. Manuel is no All Star, his performance running this team is no better than Alfonseca's in the Cub bullpen.Although I enjoyed his performance at Comiskey. Manuel deserved the boos. Belle was not well embraced here. The much hoped for spike in attendance after his signing never occurred. Cordero was not popular with Sox fans either. When both left the Sox, it wasn't that big of story. Nobody really cared.

Wish I could totaly agree with you,but I can't. I repeat,tons of Sox Fans were livid in late 98 when Sosa and McGwire were getting lots of play(considering theye both passed a record that had stood since 1961 and Sosa was in a Playoff race)while Belle got little notice since most of his damage was after the Cows ran out of the Barn. BTW, when Sosa has lots of late season meaningless stats,like many Blackhawks due eeach year--I point that out as well. In 1998,his 66 homers and MVP stats were not meaningless since they made the playoffs.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I know Alfonseca would never make the All Star team. Thats my point. Manuel is no All Star, his performance running this team is no better than Alfonseca's in the Cub bullpen.Although I enjoyed his performance at Comiskey. Manuel deserved the boos. Belle was not well embraced here. The much hoped for spike in attendance after his signing never occurred. Cordero was not popular with Sox fans either. When both left the Sox, it wasn't that big of story. Nobody really cared.

Again, that's just not true. Maybe they weren't that popular...but both of them received cheers a plenty when they did good. You're rewriting history if you think Albert was booed every time he came to the plate....which is sorta what we're wishing Cub fans would do with Sammy. There were (and still are) lots of Albert jerseys, and there was quite a buzz that year when he was signed.

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
You're right I wont say so,because I dont know--and you dont either. But nice try as always Doc!!! Gee this is fun!!!!!

But Sosa doesn't know either. He's said he didn't know he was using the corked bat, but he knew for sure he never used a corked bat in a game before. So he's saying he can't tell the difference, but he knows he never did it before. He's a joke, the biggest phony in professional sports. He plays the media worse than Kirby Puckett.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
I know I'm going to get destroyed for all of this, but most people on this site really are very egocentric when it comes to discussing the Sox and Cubs.


Do I agree with Les...on the manager, yes...on the players, no. I just wish people could look at this more realistically. I think there is some sort of power trip here that everyone wants to show up the media guy. Sorry Les, but I just look at ya like another guy with an opinion. Let's not start talking about the Tribune (who Les can't control), and other things totally unrelated to this subject.

Fact is, I AM just another guy when I'm on here. I dont consider myself a media type at all in forums like this. Just having fun like anyone else so I like your perception.

MarqSox
07-21-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Oh yeah? Bet you welcomed him with open arms when they signed him! And why not? It was dedigned to weaken Cleveland and give the Sox another bopper. Nice idea that just did'nt work.

I had a very strict personal cheering policy with Belle and Cordero. I didn't boo them, but I also refused to cheer for them — except, I admit, in the rare occassions that their play directly contributed to the White Sox winning. But basically, a home run before the 7th inning and I'd sit on my hands. And even when I cheered them, it was more of a restrained applause than an actually cheer.

I'd also like to point out that neither did anything particularly guile while wearing Sox uniforms. Their main indiscretions came in their pre-Sox days, and I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As far as Flub fans cheering Sosa, it's one thing to cheer when he hits an important home run ... it's another to wear his jersey and bow to him.

Nellie_Fox
07-21-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
As far as Flub fans cheering Sosa, it's one thing to cheer when he hits an important home run ... it's another to wear his jersey and bow to him. That raises an interesting question: Have Sox fans ever done the "we're not worthy" bowing thing to any of their players? I sure don't remember ever seeing it.

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Wish I could totaly agree with you,but I can't. I repeat,tons of Sox Fans were livid in late 98 when Sosa and McGwire were getting lots of play(considering theye both passed a record that had stood since 1961 and Sosa was in a Playoff race)while Belle got little notice since most of his damage was after the Cows ran out of the Barn. BTW, when Sosa has lots of late season meaningless stats,like many Blackhawks due eeach year--I point that out as well. In 1998,his 66 homers and MVP stats were not meaningless since they made the playoffs.

They made the playoffs as a wild card team. Even that took a playoff game to get to. They were then swept, so it could be construed that all of Sosa's homeruns since 1998 were meaningless. Yet you bow down to him. c'mon Grobber, you have more insight than any of us here, you have to know what a phony this guy is.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I had a very strict personal cheering policy with Belle and Cordero. I didn't boo them, but I also refused to cheer for them — except, I admit, in the rare occassions that their play directly contributed to the White Sox winning. But basically, a home run before the 7th inning and I'd sit on my hands. And even when I cheered them, it was more of a restrained applause than an actually cheer.

I'd also like to point out that neither did anything particularly guile while wearing Sox uniforms. Their main indiscretions came in their pre-Sox days, and I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As far as Flub fans cheering Sosa, it's one thing to cheer when he hits an important home run ... it's another to wear his jersey and bow to him.

Marq, I always agree with you, but don't you think that policy is more hypocritical? It's basically the policy of I won't cheer you because I think you're an awful person, BUT if you help my team, I'll accept your run production and cheer it. Either cheer the guy or don't, but don't be indifferent towards him until he helps your team.

Also, I don't know what the team thing has to do with it...does Sosa need to be traded and then some other fans can cheer him? Is that how it works?

I HATE Sosa, but we're being a little silly here.

MarqSox
07-21-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
That raises an interesting question: Have Sox fans ever done the "we're not worthy" bowing thing to any of their players? I sure don't remember ever seeing it.

Sure, just not EVERY time they come out to the field.

I was at a game earlier this season in the left field bleachers when Carlos stole a home run from the other team. A bunch of guys in my section did the mock worship thing, and Carlos tipped his cap to them and tossed him a ball. Difference is, Carlos earned the attention from his play, not from showboating. That, and Carlos doesn't cheat.

MarqSox
07-21-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Marq, I always agree with you, but don't you think that policy is more hypocritical? It's basically the policy of I won't cheer you because I think you're an awful person, BUT if you help my team, I'll accept your run production and cheer it. Either cheer the guy or don't, but don't be indifferent towards him until he helps your team.

It is hypocritical, and that's why I was conflicted about it at the time. That said, my feeling was, I'm not going to prohibit myself from having a good time just because we've got a couple of bozos playing the corner outfield positions. Sort of a "If you don't enjoy yourself, the terrorists win" kind of thing.

I justified it as, I was cheering my favorite team, not the couple of individuals whom I despised. That may still seem hypocritical, but it was the best I could come up with.

A.T. Money
07-21-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Oh yeah? Bet you welcomed him with open arms when they signed him! And why not? It was dedigned to weaken Cleveland and give the Sox another bopper. Nice idea that just did'nt work.

Grobber33,

The only thing I welcomed when Belle was signed was the thought of seeing more fireworks at the ballpark. I was more excited to hear that they signed Doug Drabek that season. The Sox needed pitching, and the only decent pitcher they had going into that season was Wilson Alvarez.

Futhermore, as I stated, I didn't like Belle after bat gate. This was BEFORE he signed with the Sox.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Question #4 (4. Imagine this scenario, the ASG is being held at The Shrine in '02. Don Baylor is on the coaching staff of the NL team. How would Cubbie fans have greeted Don Baylor?) was untouched by Grobber, no doubt because he knows that Cubbie fans certainly would have booed Baylor - thus destroying the basis for his 'Cubbie fans are better than Sox fans' load of crap.

I don't know. Would the "fans" at The Shrine have known who Don Baylor was?

THE_HOOTER
07-21-2003, 03:05 PM
hey Grobstein,

Do the Northside boys prefer the term "ankle grabber, or ankle grobber?"

A.T. Money
07-21-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
That raises an interesting question: Have Sox fans ever done the "we're not worthy" bowing thing to any of their players? I sure don't remember ever seeing it.

Yeah we've done it to Carlos Lee this season in the left field bleachers. Carlos is one of the few players to turn, smile and raise his hand to acknowledge us.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Oh yeah? Bet you welcomed him with open arms when they signed him! And why not? It was dedigned to weaken Cleveland and give the Sox another bopper. Nice idea that just did'nt work.

Those of us who knew anything knew we needed another starting pitcher and not Albert Belle.

dickallen15
07-21-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Those of us who knew anything knew we needed another starting pitcher and not Albert Belle.

The Sox made the grave mistake of signing Navarro that year. The Rocket wanted to come here but Navarro was signing and he was the opening day pitcher. One of the top 5 worst free agent signings of all time.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
hey Grobstein,

Do the Northside boys prefer the term "ankle grabber, or ankle grobber?"

Don't be an idiot. Don't bring childish nonsense into a damn good conversation.


Originally posted by TornLabrum


Those of us who knew anything knew we needed another starting pitcher and not Albert Belle.

Yes, but I don't think Les is talking about the educated Sox fans who follow the team's every move. I know I'm not. The general public applauded Albert, and was excited every time he came to the plate. I know no one here is discussing intelligent Cubs fans, so why bring intelligent Sox fans into this discussion. You can't disprove something by having 4 different people come up and say "Well, I didn't like Albert." That doesn't prove anything.

A.T. Money
07-21-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Those of us who knew anything knew we needed another starting pitcher and not Albert Belle.

Exactly what I said 5 posts up. :cool:

gosox41
07-21-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Brad, as I said,it's a free country---boo ANYONE you like anytime.I on the other hand(and I'm a FAN like you when I post here--not a media person,I'm not at work right now),I have the same rights.
As I think you and others here understand,your booing Manuel,Konerko,Thomas(earlier in the year of course)and others wont have any effect on the Sox front office decisions. They will do what they want,and in fact may be slower to act the more Fans(and reporters) scream for changes. On the North Side,there has been plenty of yelling for changes that dont come either. You can say 'if we dont show up,it puts pressure on them to do things'. BUT....Cub Fans can say 'since we're showing up,we have put pressure on Tribune Company to spend more'. I have news for us all.....it doees'nt matter either way----they are all going to do what the hell they want wether we as Fans like it or not. Blackhawk Fans have stopped showing up since they have'nt done squat since Mike Keenan was fired. Has that put pressure on Bill Wirtz? Uh Uh! So Sox Fans staying away(except when they face the Cubs etc)wont do a darned thing to help make this team World Series Contender. Cub Fans SHOWING UP has'nt helped either. Face it, we(Chicagoans)have a losing situation with none of the big 5 teams close to a Title.

The only way to reach these owners is to hurt them where it hurts most...in the pocketbook. Not showing up at the Cell after the 1994 strike has led to some changes. JR will spend what he has when he has it (in 2001 the payrol l was over $60 mill) And do you think changes would be made to the ballpark itself if it was drawing 2.5 million people a year? I doubt it.

As for Wirtz, he's been out of touch with reality for years. He could care less about the Hawks and probably uses them as a tax write off. Between his liquor business and the UC, why take a big financial risk on a struggling league like the NHL and lose a lot of money. How many teams have filed for bankruptcy there?

Cub fans have the wrong logic. So supporting a team and giving them money will lead to change. Just the opposite. It's called supply/demand. As long as the Cubs draw there is no incentive for the Trib to maximize it's effort to win. They'll put in minimal effort because they marketed their team as lovable losers and have people like you to buy into that concept. If fans stopped showing up the Cubs would have to do something to win because they'd be the laughingstock of baseball. Right now losing is cute.

Bob

gosox41
07-21-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
That raises an interesting question: Have Sox fans ever done the "we're not worthy" bowing thing to any of their players? I sure don't remember ever seeing it.

If they did, I'm pretty sure the player wasn't a cheater.

Bob

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The only way to reach these owners is to hurt them where it hurts most...in the pocketbook. Not showing up at the Cell after the 1994 strike has led to some changes. JR will spend what he has when he has it (in 2001 the payrol l was over $60 mill) And do you think changes would be made to the ballpark itself if it was drawing 2.5 million people a year? I doubt it.

As for Wirtz, he's been out of touch with reality for years. He could care less about the Hawks and probably uses them as a tax write off. Between his liquor business and the UC, why take a big financial risk on a struggling league like the NHL and lose a lot of money. How many teams have filed for bankruptcy there?

Cub fans have the wrong logic. So supporting a team and giving them money will lead to change. Just the opposite. It's called supply/demand. As long as the Cubs draw there is no incentive for the Trib to maximize it's effort to win. They'll put in minimal effort because they marketed their team as lovable losers and have people like you to buy into that concept. If fans stopped showing up the Cubs would have to do something to win because they'd be the laughingstock of baseball. Right now losing is cute.

Bob

Your logic is intensely flawed. You can draw no conclusion from the two ways Cubs and Sox fans choose to attend. Since '94, Cubs fans attend in droves, and the Cubs have never won. Since '94, Sox fans have not shown up to the park and all, and the Sox have never won. Any professor of logic would have a heart attack if you tried to conclude something from that.

THE_HOOTER
07-21-2003, 03:28 PM
By the way Grobber,

I was at the ASG, and I was embarrassed that Manuel was booed.

Even though he has it coming ten fold, you should not boo your own in front of a World audience.

I would have preferred the booing waited until the season resumed.

I also want to add that SoCalUIC post was very accurate.

I have been to many games at Comiskey, and the crowd on the South Side is every bit as bad if not worse when it comes to drinking, cell phones, and everything else. They have been doing the wave at crowded games!

There are more fights at Comiskey, and just as many people not paying attention.

I do not agree with the fact that there are just as many yuppies however.

There must be TONS of yuppies in those Sky Boxes, because they sure as hell aren't in the seats. :corker

Iwritecode
07-21-2003, 03:30 PM
:tomatoaward

maurice
07-21-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
That's a pretty stupid question! You're smarter than that. Why would anyone having a season like Alfonseca get named to an Allstar team?

That's a pretty stupid answer. Did you see the All Star rosters this year?

A. Alfonseca: 5.91 ERA, 1.51 WHIP
M. Williams: 6.27 ERA, 1.71 WHIP

Your comments re. Cordero are completely contrived. Most if not all Sox fans opposed the Cordero signing and never warmed to the man. (Typical Sox fan comment during Corero ABs: "Hey, Wil. Why can't you hit the ball as hard as you hit your wife?") Then again, scrubs fans never let the facts get in the way of an irrational contention.

:hawk
"I LUV it when you alliterate."

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
I HATE Sosa, but we're being a little silly here.

Not at all. I refer you to the motto of the website...

"Totally biased, utterly petty, completely unobjective..."

Dadawg_77
07-21-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by maurice
That's a pretty stupid answer. Did you see the All Star rosters this year?

A. Alfonseca: 5.91 ERA, 1.51 WHIP
M. Williams: 6.27 ERA, 1.71 WHIP

Your comments re. Cordero are completely contrived. Most if not all Sox fans opposed the Cordero signing and never warmed to the man. (Typical Sox fan comment during Corero ABs: "Hey, Wil. Why can't you hit the ball as hard as you hit your wife?") Then again, scrubs fans never let the facts get in the way of an irrational contention.

:hawk
"I LUV it when you alliterate."

Williams didn't deserve to be there, just the player voted him and he became Pitts only rep there.

Procol Harum
07-21-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
That's YOUR oppinion! When Belle corked his bat and had a team mate(Jason Grimsley)steal it,and then Belle was signed by the Sox in 1997,that was OK right??? Give me a break. You guys welcomed him with open arms as you did Wife beater Wil Cordero in 1998. Are you saying it's OK for the Sox to bring in a Corker(Belle)and Wife Beater(Cordero),but Sosa is not OK? Try that one on someone else!!!

Grobber, along w/ Torn Labrum, I sure as heck wasn't happy with the Joey Belle acquisition--to say nothing of the much-touted "coup" of landing Jaime Navarro (great oogildy-moogildy). I think a lot of Sox fans shared my sentiments back yonder.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Not at all. I refer you to the motto of the website...

"Totally biased, utterly petty, completely unobjective..."

Quite true, but if we just make things up and don't live in reality at all, then we obviously won't have any kind of real conversation that makes any sense.

Hangar18
07-21-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The current Ownership chased them away.There are way more Suites and Club Level yuppie type seats at Comiskey than Wrigley will ever have. Nice try tho!!

Good Point.....I love how an entire level is put there for just a miniscule amount of seats. Thats ridiculous. However, Les
dont think that the Cubs wouldnt have done the same, but the City wont let them. SO for now...theyre going to say they
cant go and sign good players unless they have those extra 2000
seats in the bleachers....

maurice
07-21-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Williams didn't deserve to be there, just the player voted him and he became Pitts only rep there.

I don't think anyone here belives that Williams deserved to be there. The Bucks have no less than 11 pitchers with a lower ERA and a fellow with a .955 OPS.

The fact is, he is having a worse season than Alfonseca, yet was named to an All Star team. Someone rhetorically suggested that it was "stupid" for a poster to suggest, even hypothetically, that such a thing could possibly happen.

34rancher
07-21-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Oh yeah? Bet you welcomed him with open arms when they signed him! And why not? It was dedigned to weaken Cleveland and give the Sox another bopper. Nice idea that just did'nt work.
Les,
Unlike some of my brethen, I will admit that I jumped for joy when we signed Albert. Maybe I shouldn't have, butI thought it was a great baseball move. He did have one of, if not the greatest, offensive seasons in white sox history. But, I hated Cordero. I still think that trading Sosa for Bell was a good trade though. With George, we won the division for the first time in 10 years, then followed it with 94. If we had kept Sosa, I do not believe we would have done that. Plus, Sosa has not exactly led the Cubs to the promise land. I mean not one playoff victory (I guess we could count the playoff for the wild card, even though it took career years for everyone on that team to make it) in his 10+ years in no way makes that a bad trade. I would still have done it in hindsight.
On a personal note. Thank you for taking the time to be "just one of the guys". I have a tremendous amount of respect for you because I truly believe that you are not a cub fan, but a baseball fan. For that, you are ok by me.



P.s. The cubs fans that would be able to go the ASG if it were held in Weegham Park, would boo the Sox, for real fans can't afford to go.

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher
Les,
Unlike some of my brethen, I will admit that I jumped for joy when we signed Albert. Maybe I shouldn't have, butI thought it was a great baseball move. He did have one of, if not the greatest, offensive seasons in white sox history. But, I hated Cordero. I still think that trading Sosa for Bell was a good trade though. With George, we won the division for the first time in 10 years, then followed it with 94. If we had kept Sosa, I do not believe we would have done that. Plus, Sosa has not exactly led the Cubs to the promise land. I mean not one playoff victory (I guess we could count the playoff for the wild card, even though it took career years for everyone on that team to make it) in his 10+ years in no way makes that a bad trade. I would still have done it in hindsight.
On a personal note. Thank you for taking the time to be "just one of the guys". I have a tremendous amount of respect for you because I truly believe that you are not a cub fan, but a baseball fan. For that, you are ok by me.



P.s. The cubs fans that would be able to go the ASG if it were held in Weegham Park, would boo the Sox, for real fans can't afford to go.

The extra game to break the tie is technically part of the regular season. I liked the Belle signing initially too...

Cordero I was never happy with.

Dadawg_77
07-21-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't think anyone here belives that Williams deserved to be there. The Bucks have no less than 11 pitchers with a lower ERA and a fellow with a .955 OPS.

The fact is, he is having a worse season than Alfonseca, yet was named to an All Star team. Someone rhetorically suggested that it was "stupid" for a poster to suggest, even hypothetically, that such a thing could possibly happen.

You forget his 25 saves, while I am strong believer that saves are over rated, that is why Williams made the team, plus I do believe he is a players rep which got him votes. There a lot of player reps at the ASG this year.

Hangar18
07-21-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
I know I'm going to get destroyed....... If you've never met an intelligent, baseball-loving Cubs fan, then you're not looking very hard. I have met tons.

thats funny. Ive met a cub fan that knows what hes talking about, but they almost always are also sox fans. so not sure what that all means. Im being brutally honest here, and not
just saying this because it looks good, but man, Cub fans have
got to be the Dumbest baseball fan Ive ever met. When im occasionally invited to a cub game, I feel like some world explorer, always intrigued and puzzled by what I see/hear/experience at these games. The level of foolishness, crudeness and outright ingnorance of the game always makes me smile. Those fans are like no other. THe best is to watch
someone you can tell to be a bright cub fan, watching the game and taking a box score, against the backdrop of 4 scantily clad ladies, a few cellphone talking moms, and 7 or 8 frat boys guzzling budweiser and yelling out crude (not clever) things
to other fans or opposing players. Every
"discussion" I have with them always begins with me Refuting
something Outlandish theyve brought up (the cubs have
always led the sox in attendance) They inevitably
get me to dumb down the conversation to the point that im
talking about Goats, Not winning since Polio, bad uniforms, Trixies and other non-related (but true) subject matter. Yes,
meeting an intelligent cub fan is few and far between for me,
far enough for me to be able to say those people are a bunch
of buffoons ....
(apologies to the flub fans that do know what theyre talking about)

Hangar18
07-21-2003, 04:20 PM
but again, maybe Im not looking hard enough.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by maurice
That's a pretty stupid answer. Did you see the All Star rosters this year?

A. Alfonseca: 5.91 ERA, 1.51 WHIP
M. Williams: 6.27 ERA, 1.71 WHIP

Your comments re. Cordero are completely contrived. Most if not all Sox fans opposed the Cordero signing and never warmed to the man. (Typical Sox fan comment during Corero ABs: "Hey, Wil. Why can't you hit the ball as hard as you hit your wife?") Then again, scrubs fans never let the facts get in the way of an irrational contention.

:hawk
"I LUV it when you alliterate."

I can say the same for when Sosa was a member of the Sox. More than once, I heard the comment shouted out, "Hey, Sammy! Maybe you could hit the ball if you had a rum bottle instead of a bat!"

Fridaythe13thJason
07-21-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Im being brutally honest here, and not
just saying this because it looks good, but man, Cub fans have
got to be the Dumbest baseball fan Ive ever met

Then again, maybe its because you're in Chicago and only meet Cubs and White Sox fans for the most part. I can name teams with way dumber fans. There are lots. We're spoiled in Chicago. In the Expansion cities, etc. fans don't know anything about baseball, and even places like Atlanta.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Good Point.....I love how an entire level is put there for just a miniscule amount of seats. Thats ridiculous. However, Les
dont think that the Cubs wouldnt have done the same, but the City wont let them. SO for now...theyre going to say they
cant go and sign good players unless they have those extra 2000
seats in the bleachers....

When I was a misguided yout' and was still attending Cubs games, I don't remember seeing any skyboxes there. However, the last few times I was at Wrigley Field, there was a whole row of skyboxes built below the upper deck. Unfortunately I was sitting under them for some of those games and had to look at a TV monitor to see where the hell the ball was going.

So yes, the Cubs would have done exactly the same thing. The only difference between the Cubs and the Sox is the Sox built an upper deck that should have been a lot lower while the Cubs had no place to put more, but managed to screw up the ability of fans to watch the damn game if they were so unfortunate as to sit under their skyboxes.

Hangar18
07-21-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Then again, maybe its because you're in Chicago and only meet Cubs and White Sox fans for the most part. I can name teams with way dumber fans. There are lots. We're spoiled in Chicago. In the Expansion cities, etc. fans don't know anything about baseball, and even places like Atlanta.

hmmm, this i find interesting

Paulwny
07-21-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
One last thing, the Cubs-Sox Fans dislike is far worse than even Yanks-Mets in NY is. I was at all 5 games of the 2000 WS in NYC and that stuff there was'nt close to the venum we have here.

Not many mlb fans outside the Illinois area realize that there is a deep seated sox/cubs hatred. I've been a sox fan since the mid 50's and I also never knew of these feelings till I visited this site during the pre Rivals days. It wasn't news that local papers carried.
I mentioned to my yankee loving neighbor the posts that have appeared here concerning the sox/cubs. I could tell he was skeptical. After the ASG he now believes and I assume the rest of the mlb fans believe.

MarqSox
07-21-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Not many mlb fans outside the Illinois area realize that there is a deep seated sox/cubs hatred. I've been a sox fan since the mid 50's and I also never knew of these feelings till I visited this site during the pre Rivals days. It wasn't news that local papers carried.
I mentioned to my yankee loving neighbor the posts that have appeared here concerning the sox/cubs. I could tell he was skeptical. After the ASG he now believes and I assume the rest of the mlb fans believe.

This is true ... at the newspaper I work for here in Wisconsin, the sports editor (!) asked me if I was disappointed Sosa wasn't going to be in the ASG. I reminded him I was a Sox fan, and when he said "Yeah, so?" I realized just how little the national sports media understands Chicago sports.

Paulwny
07-21-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Then again, maybe its because you're in Chicago and only meet Cubs and White Sox fans for the most part. I can name teams with way dumber fans. There are lots. We're spoiled in Chicago. In the Expansion cities, etc. fans don't know anything about baseball, and even places like Atlanta.

Agree, and in many cases I don't understand it.
Many of the expansion cities had minor league teams. It appears that when these cities became a part of mlb a new breed of fan joined the ranks.

Toronto had a long history in the International League, rich tradition, etc and knowledegeable fans. I was amazed in the 1st few years, when they became a part of mlb, to see fans applaud their player hitting into a dp. Talking to a Jay's fan sitting next to me, he told me that the idiots were applauding because the jay runner , who was at 2nd, was advanced to 3rd.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by maurice
That's a pretty stupid answer. Did you see the All Star rosters this year?

A. Alfonseca: 5.91 ERA, 1.51 WHIP
M. Williams: 6.27 ERA, 1.71 WHIP

Your comments re. Cordero are completely contrived. Most if not all Sox fans opposed the Cordero signing and never warmed to the man. (Typical Sox fan comment during Corero ABs: "Hey, Wil. Why can't you hit the ball as hard as you hit your wife?") Then again, scrubs fans never let the facts get in the way of an irrational contention.

:hawk
"I LUV it when you alliterate."

Well love this,, before Cordero signed with the Sox,the Cubs were interested in him,but dropped out of the bidding when they got clobbered with protests from Fans who implored them not to sign him and from threats from Fans to drop their Season tickets. The Sox signed him shortly thereafter--so the Sox are not as high and mighty as some like to pretend. No question the Cubs are'nt either.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher
Les,
Unlike some of my brethen, I will admit that I jumped for joy when we signed Albert. Maybe I shouldn't have, butI thought it was a great baseball move. He did have one of, if not the greatest, offensive seasons in white sox history. But, I hated Cordero. I still think that trading Sosa for Bell was a good trade though. With George, we won the division for the first time in 10 years, then followed it with 94. If we had kept Sosa, I do not believe we would have done that. Plus, Sosa has not exactly led the Cubs to the promise land. I mean not one playoff victory (I guess we could count the playoff for the wild card, even though it took career years for everyone on that team to make it) in his 10+ years in no way makes that a bad trade. I would still have done it in hindsight.
On a personal note. Thank you for taking the time to be "just one of the guys". I have a tremendous amount of respect for you because I truly believe that you are not a cub fan, but a baseball fan. For that, you are ok by me.


P.s. The cubs fans that would be able to go the ASG if it were held in Weegham Park, would boo the Sox, for real fans can't afford to go.


No question,in 1993 the Sox would have won the AL West WITHOUT George Bell. He was decent the first half,then faded and was a cancer in the Clubhouse and never played in the ALCS vs Toronto. He was done after 1993--and was pumping gas in 94 when the Sox were surging to their 1 game lead when the Strike hit. When Frank was hurt and had to DH in the first 2 games of the ALCS, Dan Pasqua played 1B and Bo Jackson had to sit.Then in Toronto,Bo played(went hitless in the Series)and Bell sat.
You are correct that the tie-breaker win by the Cubs over SF in 98 was NOT a Playoff game--it counts as a regular season game. That means the Chicago teams have now combined to lose 8 straight post season games(final 2 by the Sox in 93,3 by the Cubs in 98 and 3 by the Sox in 2000).That's why the whole World is laughing at us(Chicagoans).

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
You're right I wont say so,because I dont know--and you dont either. But nice try as always Doc!!! Gee this is fun!!!!!

Here's a novel idea...

Have an opinion! Of course you have an opinion on almost anything that's anti-Sox even if it's based on pure speculation!

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
OK Doc, here you are.........
If Wrigley(not a corporate name-but named in memory of William Wrigley Sr-sorry to kill your thunder there)...

Funny, why isn't it called William Wrigley Field?

Isn't it funny that when they changed the name of the park to Wrigley that Wrigley just happens to be the name of a Chicago corporation?

"Wrigley was and still is a corporate logo." - An honest Cubbie fan. Linky (http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=b1eil3%24jin%241%40bob.news.rcn.net&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dcorporate%2Bwrigley%2Bgroup:alt.sport s.baseball.chicago-cubs%2Bauthor:fmr%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Db1eil3%2524jin%25241%2540bob.news.rcn.n et%26rnum%3D2)

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Funny, why isn't it called William Wrigley Field?

Isn't it funny that when they changed the name of the park to Wrigley that Wrigley just happens to be the name of a Chicago corporation?

For the same reason the Ballparks at 35th & Shields were'nt called Charles Comiskey Park.You're grasping for straws here Doc! Wrigley is NOT a corporate name---your Ballpark is.Your Owner sold out! DEAL WITH IT.

MarqSox
07-21-2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
For the same reason the Ballparks at 35th & Shields were'nt called Charles Comiskey Park.You're grasping for straws here Doc! Wrigley is NOT a corporate name---your Ballpark is.Your Owner sold out! DEAL WITH IT.

C'mon Grobs, you should know better. Chewing Gum Field was the original corporate park. Wrigley was shrewd enough to realize that he could get free advertising out of it while claiming it was merely a family tribute. If you think this never entered his mind, you aren't giving him nearly enough credit. If this weren't the case, we'd still be calling it Weegham Park.

cheeses_h_rice
07-21-2003, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
For the same reason the Ballparks at 35th & Shields were'nt called Charles Comiskey Park.You're grasping for straws here Doc! Wrigley is NOT a corporate name---your Ballpark is.Your Owner sold out! DEAL WITH IT.

Wrigley Field was indeed named after the Cubs' owner, William Wrigley.

However, the fact that William Wrigley was also a chewing gum magnate with a famous company named after himself had to have factored into the decision, to some extent. The same can't be said of the original Comiskey (which is the only Comiskey Park to most Sox fans, anyway).

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
For the same reason the Ballparks at 35th & Shields were'nt called Charles Comiskey Park.You're grasping for straws here Doc! Wrigley is NOT a corporate name---your Ballpark is.Your Owner sold out! DEAL WITH IT.

Well I gave proof of at least one Cubbie fan who agrees with me.

That building on Michigan Avenue, it has no connection with Wrigley gum either.

Grobber33
07-21-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Well I gave proof of at least one Cubbie fan who agrees with me.

That building on Michigan Avenue, it has no connection with Wrigley gum either.

The Building on Michigan is corporate. The Ballpark at Clark and Addison eveyone loves except Sox Fans IS NOT.

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Building on Michigan is corporate. The Ballpark at Clark and Addison eveyone loves except Sox Fans IS NOT.

The Michigan Avenue building: Wrigley Building.
Corporate.

Ballpark formerly known as Wegham: Wrigley Field.
Corporate.

Some Cubbie fans agree.

Daver
07-21-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Building on Michigan is corporate. The Ballpark at Clark and Addison eveyone loves except Sox Fans IS NOT.

Well of course not,PK Wrigley no longer owns the team.

And the Tribune would sell the naming rights in a New York second if they thought they could get away with it,but it would affect the "nostalgic quaintness" of that dump people call a ballpark.

MarqSox
07-21-2003, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by daver
Well of course not,PK Wrigley no longer owns the team.


Doesn't mean it didn't first start out as (at least partially)corporate.

Daver
07-21-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Doesn't mean it didn't first start out as (at least partially)corporate.

That was the point I was making,it is no longer corporate because Wrigley no longer owns the team,now it is just a name.

DrCrawdad
07-21-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by daver
That was the point I was making,it is no longer corporate because Wrigley no longer owns the team,now it is just a name.

The Wrigley family sold the lousy team and ballpark for around 20 million dollars. At least they're still getting their corporation name out there.

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 11:48 PM
One other point on the naming rights:

Thanks, US Cellular. Hope the Sox spend the money the right way and so far it looks like they are.

People can keep calling it a sellout, but who cares? I mean come on. It's $62 million. That a $, a 6, a 2 and 6 BIG FAT zeros.

What does the name Comiskey mean anyway? How many people are still alive who remember Charles Comiskey the man? How many people call it Comiskey because that is the name and not because it means jack squat to them?

Take the money and run run run to the bank...

Selling the naming rights was one of the few good things Reinsy has done recently. I have only read a few posts from fans who feel differently.

Remember, real Sox fans use US Cellular service and say, thanks whenever they dial out...

Much ado about nothing... or should I say, much ado about a good thing... Any perceived animosity is the media's creation. I don't think the majority of Sox fans give a crap what the field is called, so long as the team plays hard and the stadium is inviting to casual fans.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
One other point on the naming rights:

Thanks, US Cellular. Hope the Sox spend the money the right way and so far it looks like they are.

People can keep calling it a sellout, but who cares? I mean come on. It's $62 million. That a $, a 6, a 2 and 6 BIG FAT zeros.

What does the name Comiskey mean anyway? How many people are still alive who remember Charles Comiskey the man? How many people call it Comiskey because that is the name and not because it means jack squat to them?

Take the money and run run run to the bank...

Selling the naming rights was one of the few good things Reinsy has done recently. I have only read a few posts from fans who feel differently.

Remember, real Sox fans use US Cellular service and say, thanks whenever they dial out...

Much ado about nothing... or should I say, much ado about a good thing... Any perceived animosity is the media's creation. I don't think the majority of Sox fans give a crap what the field is called, so long as the team plays hard and the stadium is inviting to casual fans.

As a Sox fan of 48 years, I can say that in my opinion, Comiskey Park was demolished after the 1990 season. As far as the new place, the Sox have done a great deal to make it a much friendlier feeling place. The new paint looks much better, the bare concrete is now at a minimum, the brick and signage give the place a nice feel. The concession stands and concourses feel less like a mall. The club level concourse with the plasma screens is very nice.

And that was all done before the naming rights were sold. If the naming rights are what it takes to fix the upper deck and any other remaining problems, so what? I don't know of anybody, except some loudmouths on sportstalk radio and maybe some media types who found anything negative about taking the U.S. Cellular money and continuing to improve the ball park.

Anyone who has griped about the park, especially the upper deck and also gripes about the U.S. Cellular money is either an idiot or a hypocrite. You can't have it any other way.

doublem23
07-22-2003, 12:56 AM
And in the end... Some people just don't get it. And never will.

GO SOX

:chicago

Meixner007
07-22-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
And in the end... Some people just don't get it. And never will.

GO SOX

:chicago

Amen

DrCrawdad
07-22-2003, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
As a Sox fan of 48 years, I can say that in my opinion, Comiskey Park was demolished after the 1990 season. As far as the new place, the Sox have done a great deal to make it a much friendlier feeling place. The new paint looks much better, the bare concrete is now at a minimum, the brick and signage give the place a nice feel. The concession stands and concourses feel less like a mall. The club level concourse with the plasma screens is very nice.

And that was all done before the naming rights were sold. If the naming rights are what it takes to fix the upper deck and any other remaining problems, so what? I don't know of anybody, except some loudmouths on sportstalk radio and maybe some media types who found anything negative about taking the U.S. Cellular money and continuing to improve the ball park.

Anyone who has griped about the park, especially the upper deck and also gripes about the U.S. Cellular money is either an idiot or a hypocrite. You can't have it any other way.

It's just something for Cubbie fans to rip Sox fans about. As you said, I don't care what they call it, that's not what is important to me.

TommyJohn
07-22-2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Well love this,, before Cordero signed with the Sox,the Cubs were interested in him,but dropped out of the bidding when they got clobbered with protests from Fans who implored them not to sign him and from threats from Fans to drop their Season tickets. The Sox signed him shortly thereafter--so the Sox are not as high and mighty as some like to pretend. No question the Cubs are'nt either.

You are right on both counts. The Sox did go ahead and sign
wife-beater Wil. The Cubs, on the other hand, didn't have a problem with drafting Ben Christianson and making him a millionaire; he of the on-deck beanball that destroyed Molina's vision and life.

As for Cub fans objecting to the signing of Cordero, good for
them. Except now they cheer for wife-abuser Sammy Sosa,
he of the rum bottle incident. Granted it happened when he
was with the Sox, who swept it under the rug pretty much,
but what's the difference between him and Cordero?

TommyJohn
07-22-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
It wasn't until Chris Berman made an issue of it on national television.

Berman's a blowhard and a windbag who ignored Public Enemy's
warning and bought into his own hype. Who gives a rip what he thinks?

TommyJohn
07-22-2003, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
OK Doc, here you are.........

1)In 1983,Lee Smith and Leon Durham were given polite applause at Comiskey--no noticable booing. Not even when Smith struck out Ron Kittle late in the game.Of course Kittle got the biggest hand of the night-and should have.



3)I doubt Cub Fans,or Fans of any other team(other than Sox Fans of course) booed Manuel. As for boing the Cards,,some did,some did not(I spoke to some and got mixed reactions to that). Not that is has anything to do with this year,but WAY back in 1962 at Wrigley, the Cards Stan Musial got the biggest ovation-even more than Banks,Williams or George Altman did.And Cub Fans hate for the Cardinals is alot longer and more obvious than for the Sox,yet they cheered a Cardinal legend who made a career(like so many did)of killing the Cubs.

In the 1983 All-Star game Ernie Banks was the honorary captain. He was given a LOUD, LONG standing ovation. He was also given one the day before at the Old-Timers' game. I was there for that. His standing ovation was louder and longer than the one for Luis Aparicio if memory serves me correctly.

gosox41
07-22-2003, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Your logic is intensely flawed. You can draw no conclusion from the two ways Cubs and Sox fans choose to attend. Since '94, Cubs fans attend in droves, and the Cubs have never won. Since '94, Sox fans have not shown up to the park and all, and the Sox have never won. Any professor of logic would have a heart attack if you tried to conclude something from that.

Not drawing forced change. The results haven't worked out and may not until KW and JM are gone. But starting in 1997 (after 2+ years of crappy attendence) the team committed itself to provding a more fna friendly team with likeable players. They also focused a lot more on building a young winning team with an intense focus on young pitching. Lastly, not drawing forced change at the Cell which will hopefully lead to more attendence and more money for the team to spend. I believe the lack of attendence forced this change. The worst thing to do is to continue to stick with a plan that's not working. The Sox could notafford (literally) to do this and were forced to figure out a different way to win.

Bob

gosox41
07-22-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Sox signed him shortly thereafter--so the Sox are not as high and mighty as some like to pretend. No question the Cubs are'nt either.

Les,
Speaking about that, how is Ben Christainsen doing these days?


Bob

gosox41
07-22-2003, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
For the same reason the Ballparks at 35th & Shields were'nt called Charles Comiskey Park.You're grasping for straws here Doc! Wrigley is NOT a corporate name---your Ballpark is.Your Owner sold out! DEAL WITH IT.

So did the Bulls/Hawks and the Bears. The Trib. would sell out to except for the fact that they're so PR conscious.

Bob

TornLabrum
07-22-2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
So did the Bulls/Hawks and the Bears. The Trib. would sell out to except for the fact that they're so PR conscious.

Bob

Maybe the people who criticize the name "U.S. Cellular Field" think "United Center" has something to do with world peace. I wonder how many of these yahoos think "Great American Ballpark" in Cincinnati has nothing to do with corporate sponsorship.

white sox bill
07-22-2003, 06:59 AM
I'm surprised that Trib Co hasn't renamed Wrigley "Tribune Field"

MarqSox
07-22-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Maybe the people who criticize the name "U.S. Cellular Field" think "United Center" has something to do with world peace. I wonder how many of these yahoos think "Great American Ballpark" in Cincinnati has nothing to do with corporate sponsorship.

I actually didn't know until yesterday that Great American was an insurance company. I thought the Reds were just trying to capitalize on patriotic fervor.

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Les,
Speaking about that, how is Ben Christainsen doing these days?


Bob

Ben Christainsen is a scumbag as was his Coach in College. I dont wish injury on anyone,but it's safe to say he got what he had coming.He's thru! Also,I hammered the Cubs when they drafted him. He was complete garbage--as a person--not talking about what type of Pitcher he may have been. Of course the way things work for the Cubs(many of them their own fault)mhe'll likely recover,join the Cardinals or Braves and win about 180 games including about 20-2 against the Cubs.

You want to minimize Comiskey and what he truly was,no problem. Like many Owners of his time,he was a cheapskate and that's why the (at least)8 White Sox Players took Arnold Rothstein's $$$ to dump the 1919 Series to a Reds team that by all accounts,the Sox would otherwise have creamed.That's not my point. I hate it when dead people's names are taken off a venue for the corporate name like Joe Robbie,Jack Murphy,Jack Kent Cooke,and right here in Evanston Dyche Stadium. The President of NU said 'it's no peoblem,Rev.Dyche has no living relatives". The next day many of his decendents came forward with a 'here we are!'. It's reprehensible!!! The Sox sold the naming rights to correct the mistakes that were made in the design of the current park. HOK offered the Sox a retro design before Baltimore and Mr.Reinsdorf did'nt want it. They suggested that home plate be where the current right field corner is so they would have a great view of the best Skyline in the World,but he said he wanted to keep the Plate at 35th & Shields.Truth is he did'nt want the Suite Holders to enter the Park near the Projects just South of the Ballpark. The Money theye got from the Cellphone Company is beind used to correct MISTAKES made in the park, NOT FOR PLAYERS! Like it or not,the new name for the venue formerly called New Comiskey WAS AND IS A SELLOUT!

Funny too,how untill today, I never saw anything here that admitted Sosa's Rum Bottle incident took place while he was with the Sox,and that they covered it up. HMMMMM.

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by TommyJohn
You are right on both counts. The Sox did go ahead and sign
wife-beater Wil.
what's the difference between him and Cordero?

Well to start with, a well over 400s homer difference.

voodoochile
07-22-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Like it or not,the new name for the venue formerly called New Comiskey WAS AND IS A SELLOUT!

Funny too,how untill today, I never saw anything here that admitted Sosa's Rum Bottle incident took place while he was with the Sox,and that they covered it up. HMMMMM.


Originally posted by Grobber33


Well to start with, a well over 400s homer difference.

I see, so it isn't about the selling out, or whether the guy did some truly classless things, it's about the stats. You truly are a sports fan, Les...

BTW, the Internet didn't exist when the rum bottle took place, or at least WSI didn't until well after ShamME was a flubbie player. So, of course there wasn't any pontificating on the incident "here". :D:

The point on the naming rights is: "WHO CARES?" It's the name of a frickin' sport's venue. It isn't like selling the name to the White House. It's a baseball stadium. This is NOT news. You can't make it news. No matter what. Call it a sellout if you want to, but on a scale of sellouts from 1-10, this is a 2. It's money to make the place better. Oh darn...

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I see, so it isn't about the selling out, or whether the guy did some truly classless things, it's about the stats. You truly are a sports fan, Les...

BTW, the Internet didn't exist when the rum bottle took place, or at least WSI didn't until well after ShamME was a flubbie player. So, of course there wasn't any pontificating on the incident "here". :D:

The point on the naming rights is: "WHO CARES?" It's the name of a frickin' sport's venue. It isn't like selling the name to the White House. It's a baseball stadium. This is NOT news. You can't make it news. No matter what. Call it a sellout if you want to, but on a scale of sellouts from 1-10, this is a 2. It's money to make the place better. Oh darn...

I'll fight to the death for your right to have your oppinion on this Voodoo. But I'll also fight for my own right to oppinion. If it's(Stadium name) no big deal,then why did Mayor Daley(bless him)tell the Bears to not even think about a corporate name for Soldier Field-a monument for our fallen Soldier in past Wars? Then of course,leave it to the Bears to come up with a cheesy Bank One deal.

BTW, anyone hear about the Score(same Management as WBBM)trying to prevent ESPN 1000 from doing any remote's from Bears Camp,even tho WBBM is the Bears Station,and not WSCR? And even tho all Stations have always been welcome to do remotes in thee past? Interesting and a bit desperate move by management of my former Station is'nt it?? What are they affraid of?

MarqSox
07-22-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I'll fight to the death for your right to have your oppinion on this Voodoo. But I'll also fight for my own right to oppinion. If it's(Stadium name) no big deal,then why did Mayor Daley(bless him)tell the Bears to not even think about a corporate name for Soldier Field-a monument for our fallen Soldier in past Wars?

I happen to like Daley, but since when did his opinion become the end-all that defines what is right and what is wrong?

A.T. Money
07-22-2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
For the same reason the Ballparks at 35th & Shields were'nt called Charles Comiskey Park.You're grasping for straws here Doc! Wrigley is NOT a corporate name---your Ballpark is.Your Owner sold out! DEAL WITH IT.

Doesn't Wrigley make gum?

dickallen15
07-22-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I'll fight to the death for your right to have your oppinion on this Voodoo. But I'll also fight for my own right to oppinion. If it's(Stadium name) no big deal,then why did Mayor Daley(bless him)tell the Bears to not even think about a corporate name for Soldier Field-a monument for our fallen Soldier in past Wars? Then of course,leave it to the Bears to come up with a cheesy Bank One deal.

BTW, anyone hear about the Score(same Management as WBBM)trying to prevent ESPN 1000 from doing any remote's from Bears Camp,even tho WBBM is the Bears Station,and not WSCR? And even tho all Stations have always been welcome to do remotes in thee past? Interesting and a bit desperate move by management of my former Station is'nt it?? What are they affraid of?

They're afraid of the fact that their act is getting old, and people are not going to be listening. Their credibility has got to be at a all time low, they throw out so many rumors and scoops that aren't true, its getting kind of comical. They are the National Enquirer of sports radio.

jabrch
07-22-2003, 10:11 AM
Who the **** cares about the naming rights? As long as the money is being used to make my experience at the park better, am all for it. This is part of the modern day baseball economy.

Most of us go to games somewhat frequently. And we know Comiskey is no paradise in terms of the surroundings, but it isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Once you get inside the park, as long as you aren't sitting in the top half of the upper deck, I think it is a great place to see a ball game. I do 10+ games per year and really enjoy it. If selling naming rights to US Cellular can make that experience even better, they have my vote. I don't feel like I owe the Comiskey family that much.


As far as the ethics of sports franchises when their players do stupid things, neither franchise will win here. Both the Cubs and the sox have had wife beaters and alcoholics. I know for a fact the Cubs have had some steroid users for a while (I can't reveal their names as much as I'd like to) and I am sure the Sox have had the same. (Although as a Sox fan, I'd be all for random testing...other teams would lose a whole lot more than we might)

voodoochile
07-22-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I'll fight to the death for your right to have your oppinion on this Voodoo. But I'll also fight for my own right to oppinion. If it's(Stadium name) no big deal,then why did Mayor Daley(bless him)tell the Bears to not even think about a corporate name for Soldier Field-a monument for our fallen Soldier in past Wars? Then of course,leave it to the Bears to come up with a cheesy Bank One deal.


A few points:

1)America was at war when the SF naming rights came up. The name Comiskey is a tribute to what again? A dead sports owner?

2)Daley is a politician. He would turn on a dime if the wind changed direction. You know it, I know it, heck Daley knows it. This is like saying, "After 9-11, Bush hated Bin Laden and stated so publicly."

3)I agree that what the Bears did was cheesy. But that is because they sold THEIR name, not the name of the place they play the games.

4)Yep, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I still don't see or hear Sox fans (including Daley) ripping the USCF naming rights deal.

Hangar18
07-22-2003, 10:16 AM
Hey Les, dont give the Cubs that much credit here. PkWrigley
didnt name the place for himself.....he Named it for his COMPANY, it was just understood to be named after him. Scoff at this, but say im the Wichita Weasels and Im building myself a new stadium (back in the day) and I decided to call it Wrigley Field. You can bet old PK wouldve gotten a team of lawyers together and stopped me from using that name. And you know WHY? they'd say I was Infringing on his companies TRADEMARK....they wouldnt care about the name. DONT BE FOOLED Lester.....oh wait,
youve been fooled for much of the 20th Century,, your a cub fan!

ha ahahahahaa

jabrch
07-22-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
BTW, anyone hear about the Score(same Management as WBBM)trying to prevent ESPN 1000 from doing any remote's from Bears Camp,even tho WBBM is the Bears Station,and not WSCR? And even tho all Stations have always been welcome to do remotes in thee past? Interesting and a bit desperate move by management of my former Station is'nt it?? What are they affraid of?


Your former station is now better for comedy than for informative sports radio. Lots of good funny guys who know sports, but very little in terms of content. They were a class act under Mr. Lee. Ever since he sold to Evergreen and the thing became corporate, it has been a slow downhill slide.

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
A few points:



3)I agree that what the Bears did was cheesy. But that is because they sold THEIR name, not the name of the place they play the games.

4)Yep, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I still don't see or hear Sox fans (including Daley) ripping the USCF naming rights deal.


ANY YOUR POINT IS?????

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
ANY YOUR POINT IS?????


My typing sucks,,,,I meant to say AND YOU POINT IS????

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
My typing sucks,,,,I meant to say AND YOU POINT IS????


I'm burying myself furture,,let's try again..........

AND YOUR POINT IS????? (hooray,got it right the third time---no hat trick,or golden sombraro.)

voodoochile
07-22-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
ANY YOUR POINT IS?????

My point was that the people who are the ones most "affected" by the renaming deal don't care. In fact most of them are for it. Why should anyone else care?

The people I see screaming longest and loudest about it are media people and flubbie fans. Since you fit both categorys, I guess that explains your position.

By the way, you can edit your posts by using the edit button at the bottom of the post next to the "quote button".

Dadawg_77
07-22-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I'm burying myself furture,,let's try again..........

AND YOUR POINT IS????? (hooray,got it right the third time---no hat trick,or golden sombraro.)


you did it again (unless that was meant as a joke), will Les ever type correctly is now the question up for debate.

Hangar18
07-22-2003, 10:35 AM
Like I said earlier...its a popular MYTH that PK Wrigley simply
named the park for himself.....Oh no he didnt. He knew the
name WRIGLEY was synonymous with his gum company.
So in a sense, the cubs were one of the First teams to SELL OUT
when it came to stadiums being named after companies.
sorry Les....had to OUT you there. I know you'll do the Stand UP thing, and tell the TRUTH when its exposed like this. please point this out
next time your on the AIR so I dont have to hear dumb cub
fans keep talking about Selling out name rights and not knowing
the Truth.

cheeses_h_rice
07-22-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I'll fight to the death for your right to have your oppinion on this Voodoo. But I'll also fight for my own right to oppinion. If it's(Stadium name) no big deal,then why did Mayor Daley(bless him)tell the Bears to not even think about a corporate name for Soldier Field-a monument for our fallen Soldier in past Wars? Then of course,leave it to the Bears to come up with a cheesy Bank One deal.

Because there's a huge difference, Les. Soldier Field is named in honor of those who fought for our country ; Comiskey was named for the former owner of the White Sox, whose family no longer has any ownership interest in this, the second ballpark of the White Sox. Changing the name of the SAME stadium that the Bears play in would be seen as a huge disgrace by the Bears and the City of Chicago, and a slap in the face of the brave service men and women who fought and died for our country; changing the name of the Illinois Sports Facilities Authority-owned ballpark at 35th & Shields is far, far, far down the list of travesties that could befall our fair city. Again, give me a freakin' break.

gosox41
07-22-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Who the **** cares about the naming rights? As long as the money is being used to make my experience at the park better, am all for it. This is part of the modern day baseball economy.

Most of us go to games somewhat frequently. And we know Comiskey is no paradise in terms of the surroundings, but it isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Once you get inside the park, as long as you aren't sitting in the top half of the upper deck, I think it is a great place to see a ball game. I do 10+ games per year and really enjoy it. If selling naming rights to US Cellular can make that experience even better, they have my vote. I don't feel like I owe the Comiskey family that much.


As far as the ethics of sports franchises when their players do stupid things, neither franchise will win here. Both the Cubs and the sox have had wife beaters and alcoholics. I know for a fact the Cubs have had some steroid users for a while (I can't reveal their names as much as I'd like to) and I am sure the Sox have had the same. (Although as a Sox fan, I'd be all for random testing...other teams would lose a whole lot more than we might)

You've got to be kidding. I never would have guessed that. I wonder who you can be referring to....


:barney&sham
I'm guessing it's not the overblown one on the right.

Next you're going to be telling me that all active players with 500 HR's on the current Cubs team use cork bats.

Bob

A.T. Money
07-22-2003, 11:05 AM
Hey Les aka Grobber33,

Just curious how you got your gigs in radio journalism (if you can call it that)? Did you have to get a communications degree or something? How does one get a job like you in sports radio?

captain54
07-22-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
Hey Les aka Grobber33,

Just curious how you got your gigs in radio journalism (if you can call it that)? Did you have to get a communications degree or something? How does one get a job like you in sports radio? :ass

"It helps if you have a big mouth, an empty head, are a high school dropout and have "hot dog salesman" on your resume..."

"Also, you have to learn how to plant your lips on the right asses...not just any ass mind you, you have to have an eye for a firm, ripe, upper crust ass"

"Once you get on the air, don't worry about credibility...just pretty much say anything you want....people will probably never catch on that you are a fake and fraud because they'll just bored and stop listening anyway"

harwar
07-22-2003, 11:49 AM
The tread that refuses to die.Just adding my part.

Meixner007
07-22-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
BTW, anyone hear about the Score(same Management as WBBM)trying to prevent ESPN 1000 from doing any remote's from Bears Camp,even tho WBBM is the Bears Station,and not WSCR? And even tho all Stations have always been welcome to do remotes in thee past? Interesting and a bit desperate move by management of my former Station is'nt it?? What are they affraid of?

I was listening to Mac, Jerko, and Harry yesterday and they were talking about it. I didn't quite understand what they were saying because i cought the conversation midway through, but they mentioned something along the lines that the rights for bears football may be expiring for the other station and they want to increase the value when bidding comes up.

white sox bill
07-22-2003, 12:28 PM
Was wondering how in the hell if a public enitiny like Illinois Sports Authority (or whatever its called, I'm @ work, gotta make this fast) using PUBLIC FUNDS to build a stadium, then turns around a number of years later and renames if after a PRIVATE COMPANY?

Is it just me or is this not right? Chicago politics?

doublem23
07-22-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by white sox bill
Was wondering how in the hell if a public enitiny like Illinois Sports Authority (or whatever its called, I'm @ work, gotta make this fast) using PUBLIC FUNDS to build a stadium, then turns around a number of years later and renames if after a PRIVATE COMPANY?

Is it just me or is this not right? Chicago politics?

What's wrong with it? They just sold the name, which actually makes more sense than not selling the rights, because then that's money that got picked up by you and I (the public).

At least that's the way I read into it.

Long live U.S. Cellular Field (or whatever the hell they want to call it).

Though, doesn't it seem stereotypical for the only guy to really get his panties in a knot over the whole "U.S. Cellular thing" is the Cub fan? Talk about negative identity reinforcement.

A.T. Money
07-22-2003, 12:44 PM
As I told my girlfriend, US Cellular will tank in 2 years and then the park will have another name. With all the mergers and the big 3 running the wireless market (AT&T, Sprint, and Cingular), US Cellular won't survive. Voicestream died within 2 years, PrimeCo is gone, T-Mobile will eventually die, and then US Cellular.

white sox bill
07-22-2003, 01:04 PM
DoubleM,

Like the UC I could see because UA donated for the stadium. It just seem like conflict of interst when a publicly donated ballpark gets renamed a corporate one. What if back in the late 80's JR wnated a public funded park but wanted it named after a big company back then like Chrysler?

Wouldn't Joe Public be outraged if HIS $$ was being used and he ABHORED a company like Chrysler, not to mention the fact that your advertising for a private company with YOUR tax$$?

Maybe I'm high though
Bill

cheeses_h_rice
07-22-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by white sox bill
DoubleM,

Like the UC I could see because UA donated for the stadium. It just seem like conflict of interst when a publicly donated ballpark gets renamed a corporate one. What if back in the late 80's JR wnated a public funded park but wanted it named after a big company back then like Chrysler?

Wouldn't Joe Public be outraged if HIS $$ was being used and he ABHORED a company like Chrysler, not to mention the fact that your advertising for a private company with YOUR tax$$?

Maybe I'm high though
Bill

Bill -

The corporate funds *decrease* the amount that taxpayers have to pay. What is so hard to understand about that? In your scenario above, it's not like the State would just let Chrysler slap its name on the stadium without paying for the privilege.

TornLabrum
07-22-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The point on the naming rights is: "WHO CARES?" It's the name of a frickin' sport's venue. It isn't like selling the name to the White House. It's a baseball stadium. This is NOT news. You can't make it news. No matter what. Call it a sellout if you want to, but on a scale of sellouts from 1-10, this is a 2. It's money to make the place better. Oh darn...

I'd make it about a -17.

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Like I said earlier...its a popular MYTH that PK Wrigley simply
named the park for himself.....Oh no he didnt. He knew the
name WRIGLEY was synonymous with his gum company.
So in a sense, the cubs were one of the First teams to SELL OUT
when it came to stadiums being named after companies.
sorry Les....had to OUT you there. I know you'll do the Stand UP thing, and tell the TRUTH when its exposed like this. please point this out
next time your on the AIR so I dont have to hear dumb cub
fans keep talking about Selling out name rights and not knowing
the Truth.

You're correct in my doing the right thing,but.....HERE GOES A BIT OF BEVINGTON.,,,,,, I already did the RIGHT THING, but my RIGHT THING is not the same as your RIGHT THING, so we dont agree on this RIGHT THING. Right?
Let me repeat,,,,Wrigley is not a corporate name,,,and if you were'nt a biased Sox Fan you would admit that. Also,the only reason you are defending the corporate name at 35th & Shields on a BallPark built with Tax $$$ is because you are a biased Sox Fan and are not being objective.
I on the other hand,would cream Cub(Tribune)Management if they tried to re-name Wrigley,just like I hammered Northwestern over Dyche Stadium & McGaw Hall(and I am a huge NU Fan). You are simply sticking up for your favorite Team and doing whatever you can(like so many others here)to rip on the Cubs and just about anything that has to do with it. Hey,,,go for it,it's all a bunch of fun anyway and alot more enjoyable than talking politics and crap like that.

TornLabrum
07-22-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by white sox bill
Was wondering how in the hell if a public enitiny like Illinois Sports Authority (or whatever its called, I'm @ work, gotta make this fast) using PUBLIC FUNDS to build a stadium, then turns around a number of years later and renames if after a PRIVATE COMPANY?

Is it just me or is this not right? Chicago politics?

As I remember it, the Sox received permission from the stadium authority to purchase naming rights for the purpose of making improvements to the ball park.

Basically it went down like this, as I recall it. The Sox wanted to make improvements. The authority said the Sox would have to obtain their own funds (the first phase was Sox money, the second a windfall Reinsdorf wangled when the Bears got the authority involved in the renovation of Soldier Field). Early on in the process the authority granted the Sox permission to negotiate for naming rights to raise this money. Remember the rumors about Motorola and Household?

The search for a corporate sponsor was always tied to stadium improvement. The stadium authority wouldn't have it any other way. There was also a tie-in somewhere with the Sox extending their lease, which they have also done, iirc.

So Les, they couldn't use the money for players. That's not what the stadium authority gave them permission to sell the rights for.

Gumshoe
07-22-2003, 03:15 PM
Les, I listened to you and your boy Tommy on Sunday and I have to say, you have some stupid thoughts about the White Sox. However, I will admit that you aren't that biased --- to your credit, even though you are a Cub guy. That friend of yours Tommy on the other hand has NOTHING going for him. He is a complete MORON when it comes to the Sox. The final callers that day were giving MAD stats showing how bad Manuel has handled the team. He has handled the bullpen atrociously this year. Tommy says that the Sox don't have enough TALENT to win the AL Central? Is he NUTS?

I find that ludicrous. By the way, if you had a draft of the starting pitchers in Chicago, can you tell me who you'd draft (rank them from 1-6). I'd like to see what you say. I think the case can be made that the Sox have equal to or BETTER starting pitching than the Cubs, and even though they are down this year (Tinkerer Manuel), the offensive possibilities are enormously higher.

Tell Tommy that he needs to stick to Nascar or something. He knows JACK about baseball. He's the bum of the week for saying that the Sox haven't enough talent to beat KC or Minne. I'm not saying they will, but to say that they don't have the talent is just absurd.

Gumshoe

captain54
07-22-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Les, I listened to you and your boy Tommy on Sunday and I have to say, you have some stupid thoughts about the White Sox.


Les can't relate to Sox fans because he loves the Flubbies and that's the only reason his comments about the Sox are out of whack at times....I enjoyed Les's late nite show on the SCORE a couple of years ago and especially "and for that YOU SUCK"..some really funny ****........

Les, long time Sox fans like myself will always carry a stigma against Cub fans for you guys supporting suck ass teams in the 60's and 70's and for absolutely choking against (of all teams) the Mutts in '69....competely inexcusable and disgraceful.....

We find it farcical that you guys think you discovered Harry Caray too....and that your beloved Caray was a long time hated Cardinals guy...that is really hilarious....

The biggest blaspemy of all is that you guys keep supporting a team even when management sticks it in your behind.....Sox fans would never stand for the crap you guys have put up with....we are out to make Reinsdorf's life as miserable as possible until he sells the damn team and goes back to Brooklyn where he belongs...

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Les, I listened to you and your boy Tommy on Sunday and I have to say, you have some stupid thoughts about the White Sox. However, I will admit that you aren't that biased --- to your credit, even though you are a Cub guy. That friend of yours Tommy on the other hand has NOTHING going for him. He is a complete MORON when it comes to the Sox. The final callers that day were giving MAD stats showing how bad Manuel has handled the team. He has handled the bullpen atrociously this year. Tommy says that the Sox don't have enough TALENT to win the AL Central? Is he NUTS?

I find that ludicrous. By the way, if you had a draft of the starting pitchers in Chicago, can you tell me who you'd draft (rank them from 1-6). I'd like to see what you say. I think the case can be made that the Sox have equal to or BETTER starting pitching than the Cubs, and even though they are down this year (Tinkerer Manuel), the offensive possibilities are enormously higher.

Tell Tommy that he needs to stick to Nascar or something. He knows JACK about baseball. He's the bum of the week for saying that the Sox haven't enough talent to beat KC or Minne. I'm not saying they will, but to say that they don't have the talent is just absurd.

Gumshoe


Right now I would have to rate the Chicago Starting Pitchers the following way: 1)ESTABAN LOAIZA 2)KERRY WOOD 3)MARK PRIOR 4)MARK BUEHRLE(the way he has bounced back from that awful start),5)CARLOS ZAMBRANO and 6)BARTOLO COLON edging out Garland for 6th..

How about bottom 5?(starters and bullpen) 1)BILLY KOCH 2)ANTONIO ALFONSECA 3)SHAWN ESTES 4)tie between JUAN CRUZ and DANNY WRIGHT(even tho both are in minors).

A.T. Money
07-22-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Les, I listened to you and your boy Tommy on Sunday and I have to say, you have some stupid thoughts about the White Sox. However, I will admit that you aren't that biased --- to your credit, even though you are a Cub guy. That friend of yours Tommy on the other hand has NOTHING going for him. He is a complete MORON when it comes to the Sox. The final callers that day were giving MAD stats showing how bad Manuel has handled the team. He has handled the bullpen atrociously this year. Tommy says that the Sox don't have enough TALENT to win the AL Central? Is he NUTS?

I find that ludicrous. By the way, if you had a draft of the starting pitchers in Chicago, can you tell me who you'd draft (rank them from 1-6). I'd like to see what you say. I think the case can be made that the Sox have equal to or BETTER starting pitching than the Cubs, and even though they are down this year (Tinkerer Manuel), the offensive possibilities are enormously higher.

Tell Tommy that he needs to stick to Nascar or something. He knows JACK about baseball. He's the bum of the week for saying that the Sox haven't enough talent to beat KC or Minne. I'm not saying they will, but to say that they don't have the talent is just absurd.

Gumshoe

LOL!

Gumshoe
07-22-2003, 04:00 PM
Grobs:

Very good analysis of the pitchers. I can't disagree. Granted the Sox have expectations, but this Cub team has been overrated from the start. When you can't score runs and you have to win every single game that Prior and Wood pitch (which doesn't happen) and Prior has never gone more than 130 innings or so, how can you think your team can make it through the entire season? The bullpen was good for a month and now we see the real Cubs. I like them a lot next year but they, like all others, have to spend money wisely and look to the future. I would never trade for anything this year. There is too much promise for the future. But the Cubs will never get rid of Sosa (prideful cancer who is unclutch) and Wrigley (where they are under .500 this year). Thus, they never will win.

Gumshoe

Grobber33
07-22-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by captain54
Les can't relate to Sox fans because he loves the Flubbies and that's the only reason his comments about the Sox are out of whack at times....I enjoyed Les's late nite show on the SCORE a couple of years ago and especially "and for that YOU SUCK"..some really funny ****........

Les, long time Sox fans like myself will always carry a stigma against Cub fans for you guys supporting suck ass teams in the 60's and 70's and for absolutely choking against (of all teams) the Mutts in '69....competely inexcusable and disgraceful.....

We find it farcical that you guys think you discovered Harry Caray too....and that your beloved Caray was a long time hated Cardinals guy...that is really hilarious....

The biggest blaspemy of all is that you guys keep supporting a team even when management sticks it in your behind.....Sox fans would never stand for the crap you guys have put up with....we are out to make Reinsdorf's life as miserable as possible until he sells the damn team and goes back to Brooklyn where he belongs...

The Cubs did'nt really choke in 69 since they lost out to the Mets by 8 games!! It was'nt even close at the end. We have had plenty of so called 'chokes' on the North Side like in 84 against SD, 89 against SF(lost 4 games to one,but 2 of those losses were by a run or two), and there's plenty more. The Sox had the big time choke in 1967(losisng 2 to the A's in KC then 3 straight to the Washington Senators to end the season with a 5 game crash and blow the pennant, the 1983 Dibber/Tito fiasco when they scored just 3 runs in that Balt series, 1993 when McDowell likely cost them the pennant with two awful starts vs Tor. It's a CHICAGO virus I guess. No doubt Caray was a ST.LOUIS guy the longest and he's also FROM St.Louis. The singing for the 7th inning stretch however was definatly started at Comiskey Park by Bill Veeck. Harry simply took it with him North in 1982.Any legit Cub Fan I know will confirm that--it's fact! He would have stayed with the Sox but did'nt get along with Mr.Reinsdorf.

TornLabrum
07-22-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Cubs did'nt really choke in 69 since they lost out to the Mets by 8 games!! It was'nt even close at the end. We have had plenty of so called 'chokes' on the North Side like in 84 against SD, 89 against SF(lost 4 games to one,but 2 of those losses were by a run or two), and there's plenty more. The Sox had the big time choke in 1967(losisng 2 to the A's in KC then 3 straight to the Washington Senators to end the season with a 5 game crash and blow the pennant, the 1983 Dibber/Tito fiasco when they scored just 3 runs in that Balt series, 1993 when McDowell likely cost them the pennant with two awful starts vs Tor. It's a CHICAGO virus I guess. No doubt Caray was a ST.LOUIS guy the longest and he's also FROM St.Louis. The singing for the 7th inning stretch however was definatly started at Comiskey Park by Bill Veeck. Harry simply took it with him North in 1982.Any legit Cub Fan I know will confirm that--it's fact! He would have stayed with the Sox but did'nt get along with Mr.Reinsdorf.

Didn't the Cubs have a lead of about 8 games around August 1? Losing 16 games in the standings in 2 months isn't a choke? What is it?

captain54
07-22-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Cubs did'nt really choke in 69 since they lost out to the Mets by 8 games!! It was'nt even close at the end.

My point is, for the majority of summer of 69' it was a done deal, the Cubs were going to the postseason.....let's call it a late August/September "free fall" then....goes down in history as one of the all time top Chicago baseball failures, if not THE all time....

The Sox, going down the stretch in 67', were tied for first with 4 other teams I believe... losing to KC and the Senators was bad,...but les.....you guys lost to THE METS!!!!!

the other big time Sox chokes were against Baltimore and Toronto, hardly big time rivalries....big deal...

MarqSox
07-22-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Cubs did'nt really choke in 69 since they lost out to the Mets by 8 games!!

Dude, that's a spin job that would make even Ari Fleischer proud. Isn't the fact that they lost by 8 games prove the point even more severely?? If they lost by 1 game, you could say "Well, the Mets just came on too strong." But to lose by 8 games after having an 8 game lead in August is to seriously choke.

pappy
07-22-2003, 05:49 PM
oh god here they come....."the big bad sox fans booed cubs players and division rivals.......what an outrage"...........these crybabies need to get a friggin life already.........this is america aint it ?????we can boo whoever we feel like booing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maurice
07-22-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by yours truly
Your comments re. Cordero are completely contrived. Most if not all Sox fans opposed the Cordero signing and never warmed to the man.

Originally posted by Grobber33
Well love this,, before Cordero signed with the Sox,the Cubs were interested in him,but dropped out of the bidding when they got clobbered with protests from Fans who implored them not to sign him and from threats from Fans to drop their Season tickets. The Sox signed him shortly thereafter--so the Sox are not as high and mighty as some like to pretend. No question the Cubs are'nt either.

Who's pretending that Sox management is "high and mighty"? Sox fans are extremely anti-Sox-management; witness:

:sellreinsy
:firejerry
:firenardi
:firepettis
:fireward

I don't see any pro-management tags in there. The point is that Sox fans didn't like Cordero. Then again, to paraphrase a wise man, "reading is a skill."

:)

white sox bill
07-23-2003, 07:38 AM
Captain,

With all due respect, lets not discount the '69 Mets..After all they won the big prize! But your right, it was a choke job!

Grobber33
07-23-2003, 07:49 AM
In 1969,let me repeat---the Mets beat the Braves and the mighty Orioles,so it was'nt just the Cubs,,and the Cubs went into the final 3 weeks with no chance at all.They lost by 8 games.
In 1967,all the Sox had to do was beat the 2 worst teams in the AL, the Kansas City A's(and they have their 2 best in Gary Peters and Joe Horlan for a twi-nighter)and got ripped in both games,and then face the awful Washington Senators(now the Texas Rangers for you young Fans that would not remember)and they lost three straight to them at Comiskey to end the season. Sorry Boys & Girls,,,,,THAT'S A TRUE CHOKE! But as usuall,it's all in the eyes of the beholder. Believe(or spin)it any way you like.
None of us have any right to talk about a thing since the Cubs have the longest run without a WS TITLE(1908)and the Sox have the second longest(1917). Pretty bad both ways.

dickallen15
07-23-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
In 1969,let me repeat---the Mets beat the Braves and the mighty Orioles,so it was'nt just the Cubs,,and the Cubs went into the final 3 weeks with no chance at all.They lost by 8 games.
In 1967,all the Sox had to do was beat the 2 worst teams in the AL, the Kansas City A's(and they have their 2 best in Gary Peters and Joe Horlan for a twi-nighter)and got ripped in both games,and then face the awful Washington Senators(now the Texas Rangers for you young Fans that would not remember)and they lost three straight to them at Comiskey to end the season. Sorry Boys & Girls,,,,,THAT'S A TRUE CHOKE! But as usuall,it's all in the eyes of the beholder. Believe(or spin)it any way you like.
None of us have any right to talk about a thing since the Cubs have the longest run without a WS TITLE(1908)and the Sox have the second longest(1917). Pretty bad both ways.

What was the Cubs lead on August 30th.

gosox41
07-23-2003, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
In 1969,let me repeat---the Mets beat the Braves and the mighty Orioles,so it was'nt just the Cubs,,and the Cubs went into the final 3 weeks with no chance at all.They lost by 8 games.
In 1967,all the Sox had to do was beat the 2 worst teams in the AL, the Kansas City A's(and they have their 2 best in Gary Peters and Joe Horlan for a twi-nighter)and got ripped in both games,and then face the awful Washington Senators(now the Texas Rangers for you young Fans that would not remember)and they lost three straight to them at Comiskey to end the season. Sorry Boys & Girls,,,,,THAT'S A TRUE CHOKE! But as usuall,it's all in the eyes of the beholder. Believe(or spin)it any way you like.
None of us have any right to talk about a thing since the Cubs have the longest run without a WS TITLE(1908)and the Sox have the second longest(1917). Pretty bad both ways.

Both the '69 Cubs and '67 Sox choked. How many people have said the 2003 Sox are out if it when they were 7 games back at the All Star Break? Does that mean if they win the division it people won't be saying the Royals choked?

Bottom line is blowing an 8 game lead on Augst 1 is a choke job. The fact that the Cubs finished so far out shows they just choked that much more. I wasn't around in '69, but I'm guessing Cub fans were buzzing in August about the playoffs even when the lead was 3-4 games.

Bob

voodoochile
07-23-2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
In 1969,let me repeat---the Mets beat the Braves and the mighty Orioles,so it was'nt just the Cubs,,and the Cubs went into the final 3 weeks with no chance at all.They lost by 8 games.
In 1967,all the Sox had to do was beat the 2 worst teams in the AL, the Kansas City A's(and they have their 2 best in Gary Peters and Joe Horlan for a twi-nighter)and got ripped in both games,and then face the awful Washington Senators(now the Texas Rangers for you young Fans that would not remember)and they lost three straight to them at Comiskey to end the season. Sorry Boys & Girls,,,,,THAT'S A TRUE CHOKE! But as usuall,it's all in the eyes of the beholder. Believe(or spin)it any way you like.
None of us have any right to talk about a thing since the Cubs have the longest run without a WS TITLE(1908)and the Sox have the second longest(1917). Pretty bad both ways.

You are right, it is in the eyes of the beholder, and your eyes are no less biased about the flubbies in '69 than any of us are about the Sox in '67. And you are correct that both sides support the worst two teams in baseball from a winning perspective. Chicago fans whether southside or northside are forever linked by our ignominious past. Ain't Chicago baseball great?

Iwritecode
07-23-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Building on Michigan is corporate. The Ballpark at Clark and Addison eveyone loves except Sox Fans IS NOT.

The only reason it's not corporate is because the Wrigley Corp. isn't paying for the free advertisment they are getting by having a ballbark with their name on it...

PaleHoseGeorge
07-23-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
The only reason it's not corporate is because the Wrigley Corp. isn't paying for the free advertisment they are getting by having a ballbark with their name on it...

To me it will always be "The Ballpark Formerly Known as Weegham Park," aka "The Urinal."

Only Les could love a bunch of lovable losers carpetbagging their way to the North Side on the ashes of the Federal League.

:)

captain54
07-23-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Pretty bad both ways.

Really???

Let me refresh your memory....

August 5, 1969....Cubs, 8 game lead
August 15, 1969...Cubs, 9.5 game lead over Mets in third place
August 20, 1969... Cubs, 7 game lead
August 25, 1969...Cubs, 5 game lead
August 30, 1969...Cubs, 4 game lead
September 5, 1969...Cubs...4.5 game lead
September 10, 1969...Cubs..1 game behind, lost 7th straight
September 11, 1969...Cubs...lost 8th straight,

finished the season 8 games behind the New York Mets....

Ladies and Gentlemen, I submit to you, the Granddaddy of Chicago Baseball Chokes Hall of Shame.....

Hangar18
07-23-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
The only reason it's not corporate is because the Wrigley Corp. isn't paying for the free advertisment they are getting by having a ballbark with their name on it...

Dont be like Grobber and be Fooled by this "fact". The fact is, the cubs could never take the name WRIGLEY off the building and sell it now, because the Media painted them in a corner by always referring to it that way. OH how they would LOVE to have money coming in because of that. The Fact is and always was....that park changed their name to WRIGLEY Field because the owner wanted the name of his COMPANY on the building.
the name WRIGLEY was/is synonymous with CHEWING GUM.
As I told LES (and still waiting for a response) that if I had a new ballpark built and called it WRIGLEY FIELD also...theyd sue
me for copyright infringement, saying that my use of the name would hurt their trademark because EVERYONE KNOWS WRIGLEY = GUM. same thing happened with an artist who went by the name "king velveeda" (note the spelling of a D instead of a T in velveeda). Guess who sued him? Kraft. THey argued successfully that the name KRAFT is synonymous with their Food and Cream Cheese. he was a local guy and had to change his name after all of that. So LES, when did you say you were going to apologize to SOX FANS for erroneously reporting that the cubs DIDNT also sell their name out too....

Grobber33
07-23-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18

So LES, when did you say you were going to apologize to SOX FANS for erroneously reporting that the cubs DIDNT also sell their name out too....


YOU WISH!!!!! I wont apologize for my oppinion any more than I would for being a Cub Fan,any more than you would for being a Sox Fan. Actually,the Baseball Gods should likely apologize to all of us in Chicago at BOTH ends of town---dont you think???

Grobber33
07-23-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by captain54
Really???

Let me refresh your memory....

August 5, 1969....Cubs, 8 game lead
August 15, 1969...Cubs, 9.5 game lead over Mets in third place
August 20, 1969... Cubs, 7 game lead
August 25, 1969...Cubs, 5 game lead
August 30, 1969...Cubs, 4 game lead
September 5, 1969...Cubs...4.5 game lead
September 10, 1969...Cubs..1 game behind, lost 7th straight
September 11, 1969...Cubs...lost 8th straight,

finished the season 8 games behind the New York Mets....

Ladies and Gentlemen, I submit to you, the Granddaddy of Chicago Baseball Chokes Hall of Shame.....


This does'nt approach the Phillies of 1964 with how THEY went into the toilet--much later than the Cubs did. Do the research.

Hangar18
07-23-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
YOU WISH!!!!! I wont apologize for my oppinion any more than I would for being a Cub Fan,any more than you would for being a Sox Fan. Actually,the Baseball Gods should likely apologize to all of us in Chicago at BOTH ends of town---dont you think???

Les, I was talking about the Fact that the PK Wrigley named
his stadium after his company (under the guise that he named it after himself). Your "opinion" that it wasnt the case, and that
the sox sold out is not the point. I was pointing out that yes...
the sox probably sold out,,,but the Cubs Sold Out way way back in the day when they changed Weegman Pk to Wrigley Field.

JUGGERNAUT
07-23-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
As I told LES (and still waiting for a response) that if I had a new ballpark built and called it WRIGLEY FIELD also...theyd sue
me for copyright infringement, saying that my use of the name would hurt their trademark because EVERYONE KNOWS WRIGLEY = GUM. same thing happened with an artist who went by the name "king velveeda" (note the spelling of a D instead of a T in velveeda). Guess who sued him? Kraft. THey argued successfully that the name KRAFT is synonymous with their Food and Cream Cheese. he was a local guy and had to change his name after all of that.

This is true. It's called copyright entitlement due to brand name recognition.

It's been argued successfully with respect to websites lately as well.

TornLabrum
07-23-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
This does'nt approach the Phillies of 1964 with how THEY went into the toilet--much later than the Cubs did. Do the research.

Please note it said CHICAGO baseball chokes. Phillies don't qualify.

TornLabrum
07-23-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Les, I was talking about the Fact that the PK Wrigley named
his stadium after his company (under the guise that he named it after himself). Your "opinion" that it wasnt the case, and that
the sox sold out is not the point. I was pointing out that yes...
the sox probably sold out,,,but the Cubs Sold Out way way back in the day when they changed Weegman Pk to Wrigley Field.

The name of the ballpark was changed from Weegham Park to Cubs Park when the Cubs took it over in 1917. I believe the name was changed to Wrigley Field in the '20s when William (not Phil) Wrigley was still alive. But I could be wrong.

voodoochile
07-23-2003, 03:23 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

A double tomato for the Grobber... Well done, Les...

bobj4400
07-23-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Building on Michigan is corporate. The Ballpark at Clark and Addison eveyone loves except Sox Fans IS NOT.


You mean The Urinal, Grobber?

captain54
07-23-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Please note it said CHICAGO baseball chokes. Phillies don't qualify.

I think Les means the Chicago Phillies.....

gosox41
07-23-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
This does'nt approach the Phillies of 1964 with how THEY went into the toilet--much later than the Cubs did. Do the research.

Les,
The Phillies play in Philadelphia. This was referred to as the biggest Chicago baseball choke. But to a Cub fan, what do details matter. As long as the beer is flowing and the sun is shining and the cheater is hitting homers.... :smile:

Bob

bobj4400
07-23-2003, 03:37 PM
If it's(Stadium name) no big deal,then why did Mayor Daley(bless him)tell the Bears to not even think about a corporate name for Soldier Field-a monument for our fallen Soldier in past Wars?


B/c something called 9/11 had happened, and our country was fighting a war...the thought of taking away the name of Soldier Field is a lot different than changing the name of a ballpark named for a cheapskate owner who by most accounts was a real *******.

C'mon Grobber that is not a very strong argument...

TommyJohn
07-23-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33

None of us have any right to talk about a thing since the Cubs have the longest run without a WS TITLE(1908)and the Sox have the second longest(1917). Pretty bad both ways.

The Sox have the second longest, true. But sssshhhhh! Don't
tell that to any Red Sox fans. They believe that they have the
second-longest. And no one has suffered the way they have
suffered.

DrCrawdad
07-24-2003, 06:20 AM
Things that drive Les nuts:

1. The Sox winning both Crosstown Series. Have the Cubbies ever won both series?

2. The Sox knocked the Cubbies out of first place. The Cubbies have floundered ever since the White Sox sent them on a tail spin.

3. White Sox have a better record than the Cubbies.

4. The White Sox are closer to first than the Cubbies.

Grobber33
07-24-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
You mean The Urinal, Grobber?


I did'nt want to say this but you forced me to......

BETTER A URINAL than A TOILET!!! Take that any way you wish!!!

voodoochile
07-24-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
I did'nt want to say this but you forced me to......

BETTER A URINAL than A TOILET!!! Take that any way you wish!!!

That's funny. My buddy the flubbie fan pointed out that Soxpark looks like a giant toilet bowl when viewed from outside. I cannot disagree.

Still, the main thing about Soxpark that appeals to me is that Chicago's ONLY +.500 team plays there...

:)

Grobber33
07-24-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Things that drive Les nuts:

1. The Sox winning both Crosstown Series. Have the Cubbies ever won both series?

2. The Sox knocked the Cubbies out of first place. The Cubbies have floundered ever since the White Sox sent them on a tail spin.

3. White Sox have a better record than the Cubbies.

4. The White Sox are closer to first than the Cubbies.

1) No the Cubs never won BOTH(of 2 series)but they have the only complete SEASON SWEEP---3 wins no losses in 1998----you cant deny that unless you are still crying about the 'Vines Play'-smart play by Sosa that you will NEVER live down--even if the Sox win every season series from now untill doomsday(which they wont of course)!!

2)You want to take credit for the Sox 'knocking the Cubs out of first'--be my guest,,,I'm not sure,but I think the Cubs may have re-gained first briefly AFTER they played the Sox,but who cares either way?----I never expected them to stay there(in 1st)and predicted them to finish 4th.
You guys still think the Sox knocked the Cubs out of first in 1999---nice try there as well,Lance Johnson getting picked off in Ariz to halt a Cub 9th inning rally is what started their downfall-along with the fact they just were'nt that good in the first place---and beside,the Cubs went into Comiskey and took 2 of 3 a month later after the Sox had won the 3 in Wrigley. But you dont want to hear about that do you??? You're grasping for straws again Doc!!

Grobber33
07-24-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That's funny. My buddy the flubbie fan pointed out that Soxpark looks like a giant toilet bowl when viewed from outside. I cannot disagree.

Still, the main thing about Soxpark that appeals to me is that Chicago's ONLY +.500 team plays there...

:)

Cant argue that!!! Get while the getting is good!! They are still 6 back in the loss collum in the AL Comedy Central,but there can be no argument,they've played alot better of late and get to play some really tough teams soon----so IF they come back and take that Division,they will have earned it. We'll see.

sox_fan_forever
07-24-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Cant argue that!!! Get while the getting is good!! They are still 6 back in the loss collum in the AL Comedy Central,

They are 5 back.

white sox bill
07-24-2003, 11:20 AM
Les,

I've always said Wrigley has WAY more toilets than Comiskey. In fact, without checking, aren't there about 39,000 of them? And all of them readily accesible, in fact you don't even have to LEAVE YOUR SEAT!
Be good Les, I still think your one of the best!! BTW, whatever happened to Little Tommy from old WLS?
Bill

voodoochile
07-24-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by sox_fan_forever
They are 5 back.

That's over all. In the Loss column the Sox are 6 back and only 4 back in the win column. Essentially, the Sox have played 2 more games than the Royals and lost them both.

TornLabrum
07-24-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
1) No the Cubs never won BOTH(of 2 series)but they have the only complete SEASON SWEEP---3 wins no losses in 1998----you cant deny that unless you are still crying about the 'Vines Play'-smart play by Sosa that you will NEVER live down--even if the Sox win every season series from now untill doomsday(which they wont of course)!!

Kind of like that basket shot by Mike Caruso?

cheeses_h_rice
07-24-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Cant argue that!!! Get while the getting is good!! They are still 6 back in the loss collum in the AL Comedy Central,but there can be no argument,they've played alot better of late and get to play some really tough teams soon----so IF they come back and take that Division,they will have earned it. We'll see.

Kansas City 55 44 .556 -
Chicago Sox 51 50 .505 5
Minnesota 49 51 .490 6.5


Houston 56 45 .554 -
St. Louis 52 49 .515 4
Chicago Cubs 50 50 .500 5.5

So Les, you'll have to agree that the Flubbies play in the NL Comedy Central as well, right?

Hangar18
07-24-2003, 11:48 AM
Les, you still havnt acknowledged the REAL reason old man PK changed the name of Weegman Pk to after his company ....
WRIGLEY FIELD. He was the ORIGINAL sell out. thanks
for playing....

TornLabrum
07-24-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Kansas City 55 44 .556 -
Chicago Sox 51 50 .505 5
Minnesota 49 51 .490 6.5


Houston 56 45 .554 -
St. Louis 52 49 .515 4
Chicago Cubs 50 50 .500 5.5

So Les, you'll have to agree that the Flubbies play in the NL Comedy Central as well, right?

The way I heard it from a Cubs fan, the AL Central is weak, but in the NL Central, the teams just keep beating up on each other.

As far as the thought processes of Cubs fans go, I don't know if being delusional is funny or sad. I think I'll go with what Homer Simpson said, in traffic school: "It's funny because it's not me."

moochpuppy
07-24-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
You guys still think the Sox knocked the Cubs out of first in 1999---nice try there as well,Lance Johnson getting picked off in Ariz to halt a Cub 9th inning rally is what started their downfall-along with the fact they just were'nt that good in the first place---

Weren't that good?!? They were coming off a 90 win season and a wildcard birth. Expectations were soaring that season.

TornLabrum
07-24-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
Weren't that good?!? They were coming off a 90 win season and a wildcard birth. Expectations were soaring that season.

Well, they weren't that good after we whupped their little Cubbie butts in Weegham Park.

dickallen15
07-24-2003, 11:50 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grobber33
[B]1) No the Cubs never won BOTH(of 2 series)but they have the only complete SEASON SWEEP---3 wins no losses in 1998----you cant deny that unless you are still crying about the 'Vines Play'-smart play by Sosa that you will NEVER live down--even if the Sox win every season series from now untill doomsday(which they wont of course)!!


The bogus vine play, and the ball rolling into the drainage hole. Either one of those doesn't happen and the Cubs don't make the wild card. And if they didn't make the wildcard ALL of Corky Wifebeater's career homers, by Grobber's own definition, would be meaningless. By the way Grobber, I believe all of Ernie Banks' career homers are also meaningless. Going by what you said about Albert Belle.Also Ron Santo shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, all his statistics were meaningless.

Chisox353014
07-24-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Things that drive Les nuts:

2. The Sox knocked the Cubbies out of first place. The Cubbies have floundered ever since the White Sox sent them on a tail spin.


Actually we knocked the Cubs out of 1st place twice this year. Both weekends started with the Cubs at least tied for first and both ended with them out of 1st. I remember because i made a special note of pointing this out to one of my Cub fan friends. :cool:

DrCrawdad
07-24-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
1) No the Cubs never won BOTH(of 2 series)but they have the only complete SEASON SWEEP---3 wins no losses in 1998----you cant deny that unless you are still crying about the 'Vines Play'-smart play by Sosa that you will NEVER live down--even if the Sox win every season series from now untill doomsday(which they wont of course)!!

Thanks for bringing up an irrelevant point. The Cubs swept in 1998 when there was only one series. Of course the Sox swept the Cubbies the next year at The Shrine.

Just remember, the Sox won BOTH series this year. If the Cubbies had done this you'd be going on about this...well like you do about that '98 series.

Originally posted by Grobber33
2)You want to take credit for the Sox 'knocking the Cubs out of first'--be my guest,,,I'm not sure,but I think the Cubs may have re-gained first briefly AFTER they played the Sox,but who cares either way?----I never expected them to stay there(in 1st)and predicted them to finish 4th.
You guys still think the Sox knocked the Cubs out of first in 1999---nice try there as well,Lance Johnson getting picked off in Ariz to halt a Cub 9th inning rally is what started their downfall-along with the fact they just were'nt that good in the first place---and beside,the Cubs went into Comiskey and took 2 of 3 a month later after the Sox had won the 3 in Wrigley. But you dont want to hear about that do you??? You're grasping for straws again Doc!!

You don't want to hear about how the Sox dropped the Cubbies out of first this season, do you???

Here's a question for you, if the situation were reversed and it was the Sox who got knocked out of first place two times by the Cubbies then the Sox went into a tailspin, what would you be saying?

In a conversation about THIS YEAR'S SERIES you're the one who brought up things from years ago. Talk about grasping for straws.

I still remember one Mr. Les Grobstein back in 2000 cawing about how the Cubbies were Co-City Champions.

Well the Sox beat the Cubbies 4 out of 6 this year and won both series. Now your Lovable Losers are behind the Sox in wins/losses and standings.

Les, can you say...

WHITE SOX THE 2003 CHICAGO CHAMPIONS!

MarqSox
07-24-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad

WHITE SOX THE 2003 CHICAGO CHAMPIONS! [/B]

I'd much rather be world champions ... like, it's not even really close.

TommyJohn
07-24-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
[B]


I still remember one Mr. Les Grobstein back in 2000 cawing about how the Cubbies were Co-City Champions.



He said the same thing about last year's series. Then, when
the Sox won 4 of 6 in 2001, I remember him on the other
station huffing "the Cubs have the better record! I'm looking
at the team with the better record!!" I like Les and he's terrific
to listen to and read on this website, but it's the truth.

JRIG
07-27-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by white sox bill
Les,

I've always said Wrigley has WAY more toilets than Comiskey. In fact, without checking, aren't there about 39,000 of them? And all of them readily accesible, in fact you don't even have to LEAVE YOUR SEAT!
Be good Les, I still think your one of the best!! BTW, whatever happened to Little Tommy from old WLS?
Bill

Little Snot nosed Tommy,is now in New Mexico--not far from Your Charming and delightful Ole Uncle Lar(Larry Lujack).Tommy had been Program Director at KCBS(Arrow 93)in L.A. untill early this year. Great Guy,Chicago Radio misses both of these guys in fact!!

JRIG
07-27-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
Weren't that good?!? They were coming off a 90 win season and a wildcard birth. Expectations were soaring that season.

How your memory fails you!! Wood did'nt pitch at all that season,Rod Beck-who was the closer in 1998 was basically done--and spent much of the year on the DL, Gary Gaetti was done(and it was their own fault that they brought him back instead of siging Ventura),Tapani was hurt part of that year,they simply WERE NOT AS GOOD. If you want to amuse yourself by thiniking the Cubs finished poorly because of the Sox,go ahead,,,,but you're fooling yourself----not me. BTW I also have mentioned the tons of injuries suffered by the 2001 Sox(Wells,Simas,Parque,Baldwin,and many others)---I dont only mention the 99 Cubs.

WSPav
07-30-2003, 09:04 PM
Question to Les. Is abusing your press credentials a classy thing to do? I think NOT. Before you accuse people on not having class, take a look in the mirror.

Grobber33
08-02-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by WSPav
Question to Les. Is abusing your press credentials a classy thing to do? I think NOT. Before you accuse people on not having class, take a look in the mirror.

You absolutly have no idea what you're talking about. There was NO abuse of credentials,,,and if there HAD been, I would not have had them for the ALLSTAR GAMES or WORLD SERIES the past two years-but guesss what?? I did!. All the Teams in Town,and all of the Leagues(MLB,NHL,NFL,and NBA)know my former Station was full of crap.It was an excuse THEY used to began their cost cutting moves that also saw Tommy Williams,Dan Jiggets,Jerry Riles,and now Matt Fishsman and Jessie Rogers all leave.There is plenty more to this that I'll talk about when I'm good and ready--who knows,mabey even here on WSI! So once again, know what YOU are talking about before you throw out cheap shots!!

DrCrawdad
08-02-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
You absolutly have no idea what you're talking about. There was NO abuse of credentials,,,and if there HAD been, I would not have had them for the ALLSTAR GAMES or WORLD SERIES the past two years-but guesss what?? I did!. All the Teams in Town,and all of the Leagues(MLB,NHL,NFL,and NBA)know my former Station was full of crap.It was an excuse THEY used to began their cost cutting moves that also saw Tommy Williams,Dan Jiggets,Jerry Riles,and now Matt Fishsman and Jessie Rogers all leave.There is plenty more to this that I'll talk about when I'm good and ready--who knows,mabey even here on WSI! So once again, know what YOU are talking about before you throw out cheap shots!!


The Score treated Les in a very low class manner. If you're gonna fire someone, there's no need to make up crap and attempt to trash their reputation.

I'm all for poking fun at Les because he was reared a Cubbie fan. But in spite of Les' Cubbiness, Les is a stand-up guy.

Let's stick to baseball related stuff (or at least sports related).

One last thing...

Les, can you say FIRST PLACE WHITE SOX!

...at least for now.

AsInWreck
08-02-2003, 02:01 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by adsit
[B]
Instead of having a sports show about those 'no-class Sox fans' booing their own manager, why not have one looking into what motivated all that booing? JM has F'd up a talented team for three years running. It's a crime.


You mean that talented squad from '01 and '02 with no left-handed hitters, no defense and horrible starting pitching, after Buerhle? Quit blaming it on Jerry, they were just a poorly constructed team, and that's not his job. KW has done a pretty good job this year of rectifying those serious flaws, which is why they are starting to turn it around

ShoelessFred
08-02-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by WSPav
Question to Les. Is abusing your press credentials a classy thing to do? I think NOT. Before you accuse people on not having class, take a look in the mirror.

not a very classy thing to say. it's fun to go back and forth with the grobber, but i did not appreciate this coment.

Nellie_Fox
08-05-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Les, can you say FIRST PLACE WHITE SOX!

...at least for now. Actually, Les did say it. He picked the Sox for first this year, if I'm not mistaken.

Les has gotten away with some minor Cubbie trolling that others probably would not have gotten away with here, but let's give him credit for being a public figure with a known Cubbie Jones (boy, am I dating myself with a reference to someone having a "Jones") who has the guts to come in here and go toe-to-toe.

Grobber33
08-05-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Actually, Les did say it. He picked the Sox for first this year, if I'm not mistaken.

Les has gotten away with some minor Cubbie trolling that others probably would not have gotten away with here, but let's give him credit for being a public figure with a known Cubbie Jones (boy, am I dating myself with a reference to someone having a "Jones") who has the guts to come in here and go toe-to-toe.

Nice of you to say that---in fact I did pick the Sox to win the AL Central in late March. You should also know NELLIE FOX was one of my all time favorites. He homered to right to beat the Twins in the 9th inning(off Camilo Pasquel)in 1961 on Father's Day in the first Sox game I ever attended. I have alway's said---and I stand by it, Fox and Aparicio were the best double play combination I ever saw(and this from a Cub Fan who knows Beckert and Kessinger were pretty darned good). I also happen to beleive Looie was better all around than Ozzie Smith,and yes on defense, better that Jeter,Arod,and Nomar. LES

Nellie_Fox
08-05-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Nice of you to say that---in fact I did pick the Sox to win the AL Central in late March. You should also know NELLIE FOX was one of my all time favorites. He homered to right to beat the Twins in the 9th inning(off Camilo Pasquel)in 1961 on Father's Day in the first Sox game I ever attended. I have alway's said---and I stand by it, Fox and Aparicio were the best double play combination I ever saw(and this from a Cub Fan who knows Beckert and Kessinger were pretty darned good). I also happen to beleive Looie was better all around than Ozzie Smith,and yes on defense, better that Jeter,Arod,and Nomar. LES A Nellie homer was even rarer than a Nellie strikeout :D: .

I've never argued with the younger fans here about the relative defensive merits of Nellie and "Leetle Looie" compared to modern players, but I agree with you. Luis was the best shortstop I ever saw. I became a second baseman as a kid because I realized I didn't have the arm to be a shortstop, so Nellie became my idol.

hsnterprize
08-05-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
You absolutly have no idea what you're talking about. There was NO abuse of credentials,,,and if there HAD been, I would not have had them for the ALLSTAR GAMES or WORLD SERIES the past two years-but guesss what?? I did!. All the Teams in Town,and all of the Leagues(MLB,NHL,NFL,and NBA)know my former Station was full of crap.It was an excuse THEY used to began their cost cutting moves that also saw Tommy Williams,Dan Jiggets,Jerry Riles,and now Matt Fishsman and Jessie Rogers all leave.There is plenty more to this that I'll talk about when I'm good and ready--who knows,mabey even here on WSI! So once again, know what YOU are talking about before you throw out cheap shots!! Hey Grobber...

I talked with Matt Fishman on the phone yesterday, and he told me he was leaving because he accepted a program director position at a brand new sports-talk radio station in Kansas City. For a while after I read this post, I thought there was some internal mess going on that basically got him knocked out of there. I'm not completely disregarding that notion...you and I both know how "office politics" can turn a good, loyal employee into a "cancer" for a company to get rid of. Matt's cool...he told me the new P.D. will be decided upon by the end of this week. As for Jesse, I read in Feder's column this morning that he's leaving because Julie Swieca beat him out for a permanent 10PM to 1:30AM show. I like Jules...she's not only another pretty face, but she's pretty good and knowledgable about her stuff.

You and I have sat in many press boxes in this city to know that a station, let alone any company, isn't going to air it's "dirty laundry" for the world to see. If there's one thing I've learned from you is that professionalism is always a good barrier against the muck and garbage of the office...even if it doesn't always protect you from such. I've always admired you since I've been in this field, and you can count on me to be a stand-up guy on your behalf.

Continued success at ESPN Radio. I won't always agree with you opinions, but at least you're a good man to talk with, and someone people like me in the press can respect. You know I'm a Sox fan at heart, but I won't tolerate the "cheap-shot" crap people who cheer for the same team as I do will put out. By the way...even though the Sox lost the game last night, what did you think about the game and the atmosphere of the place?

Harlin

TornLabrum
08-05-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Hey Grobber...

I talked with Matt Fishman on the phone yesterday, and he told me he was leaving because he accepted a program director position at a brand new sports-talk radio station in Kansas City. For a while after I read this post, I thought there was some internal mess going on that basically got him knocked out of there. I'm not completely disregarding that notion...you and I both know how "office politics" can turn a good, loyal employee into a "cancer" for a company to get rid of. Matt's cool...he told me the new P.D. will be decided upon by the end of this week. As for Jesse, I read in Feder's column this morning that he's leaving because Julie Swieca beat him out for a permanent 10PM to 1:30AM show. I like Jules...she's not only another pretty face, but she's pretty good and knowledgable about her stuff.

The part about Julie Swieca is interesting. On her Sunday show this week she hedged on whether the 10:00 show was permanent when a caller brought it up.

captain54
08-05-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Hey Grobber...

I like Jules...she's not only another pretty face, but she's pretty good and knowledgable about her stuff.



:ass

"hey, you forgot the other pretty face at the SCORE!"

"I may be an asswipe, but damn, am I HOT!!"

Grobber33
08-05-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Hey Grobber...

I talked with Matt Fishman on the phone yesterday, and he told me he was leaving because he accepted a program director position at a brand new sports-talk radio station in Kansas City. For a while after I read this post, I thought there was some internal mess going on that basically got him knocked out of there. I'm not completely disregarding that notion...you and I both know how "office politics" can turn a good, loyal employee into a "cancer" for a company to get rid of. Matt's cool...he told me the new P.D. will be decided upon by the end of this week. As for Jesse, I read in Feder's column this morning that he's leaving because J**** S***** beat him out for a permanent 10PM to 1:30AM show. Continued success at ESPN Radio. I won't always agree with you opinions, but at least you're a good man to talk with, and someone people like me in the press can respect. You know I'm a Sox fan at heart, but I won't tolerate the "cheap-shot" crap people who cheer for the same team as I do will put out. By the way...even though the Sox lost the game last night, what did you think about the game and the atmosphere of the place?

Harlin

Both Matt Fishman & Jessie Rogers are good guys and deserve better! Fish will be a Program Director in KC which is a stepup from being Executive Producer.Dan Zampillo will do a nice job in that position. Anything good that happen's to J.Hood,I am pleased to see-he is also a great person as ALMOST everyone there is.Mike North remain's a good Friend as well. THAT SAID...That place is now the 'enemy' --they are now the 'other' Station and are in my rear view mirror where they belong. Last Thursday(July 31)was the 2 year Anniversary of my leaving that place after 4+ great years-not my choice at the time,but their Management got what they wanted and I'm gone---so are many others since. ESPN 1000 is my Home now and I will do whatever I can to help them beat the competition.
I could care less what that other Station is doing late at nights.
Jessie told me he's still going to work the Blackhawk games,but as an employee of the Hawks.There's alot more to everything that I'll keep to my self for now.Who knows? Mabey I'll reveal some stuff later right here on WSI.

The Sox game last night was like a softball game.Nobody could get anyone out--and that's because the Plate Umpire Mike Wegner had a postage stamp size strike zone.It was a joke.So were the warnings and ejections. The Crowd was juiced(figuratively and literally)and except for the goofs who did the wave,got drunk and started fighting(small percentage to be sure)it was an interesting night. Frank getting his 2000th hit was nice as well.

ShoelessFred
08-05-2003, 04:36 PM
do you think manuel made the right move by pulling garland last night les?

Grobber33
08-05-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
do you think manuel made the right move by pulling garland last night les?

Absolutly not!! Of course we had no idea Schoeneweis would face 4 men and they would all score. Garland was smart after the game.He took forever to come out of the showers,and only Bruce Levine,Myself and John Mullen were there.He wisely declined to comment.He was polite to us,and apologized,but after what happened to Rick White,Garland kept quiet. BTW, let's not forget,Jon was getting hit pretty good as well last night. It's not like he was pitching a gem,but I think he was pulled at least 2 ,mabey 3 batters too soon.