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View Full Version : BBTN calls out Manuel for tinkering


ScottySoxFan
07-19-2003, 09:55 PM
Brantley on Baseball Tonight talked for about 2 or 3 minutes about the closer situation. He basically said that Manuel's tinkering with the bullpen/closer early in the season set the tone and led to Koch losing his confidence.

He then went on to say that the same things has happened to the whole team. His words, "He set the tone early by putting guys here, and then over here, and taking them out and putting them over here."

Tell us something we don't know.

jeremyb1
07-19-2003, 10:01 PM
i totally disagree that demoting koch was a mistake at any point in time. the guy hasn't gotten guys out all season. say what you will about the manuel's handling of the rest of the lineup but koch's strength lies in a high 90's fast ball he can blow by hitters. throwing him out there game after game throwing in the low 90s for the sake of defining roles and showing faith in your closer shows a lack of desire to win in my opinion.

TornLabrum
07-19-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by ScottySoxFan
Brantley on Baseball Tonight talked for about 2 or 3 minutes about the closer situation. He basically said that Manuel's tinkering with the bullpen/closer early in the season set the tone and led to Koch losing his confidence.

He then went on to say that the same things has happened to the whole team. His words, "He set the tone early by putting guys here, and then over here, and taking them out and putting them over here."

Tell us something we don't know.

Maybe they've started reading WSI.

WinningUgly!
07-19-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i totally disagree that demoting koch was a mistake at any point in time. the guy hasn't gotten guys out all season. say what you will about the manuel's handling of the rest of the lineup but koch's strength lies in a high 90's fast ball he can blow by hitters. throwing him out there game after game throwing in the low 90s for the sake of defining roles and showing faith in your closer shows a lack of desire to win in my opinion.


You're right. Koch should have lost the right to the closer role 2 weeks into the season(maybe sooner). The only thing I blame Manuel for here is for sticking with him too long.

TornLabrum
07-19-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
You're right. Koch should have lost the right to the closer role 2 weeks into the season(maybe sooner). The only thing I blame Manuel for here is for sticking with him too long.

I didn't see the report, but it's not talking about demoting Koch now, I don't think. The original post specifically talks about Manuel "tinkering with the bullpen early in the season."

MarqSox
07-19-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I didn't see the report, but it's not talking about demoting Koch now, I don't think. The original post specifically talks about Manuel "tinkering with the bullpen early in the season."

No, Brantley specifically chastized Manuel for demoting Koch, saying he "didn't have too much problems early" in the season and that Manuel's decision to remove Koch was a knee-jerk one. He didn't know what he was talking about.

WinningUgly!
07-19-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I didn't see the report, but it's not talking about demoting Koch now, I don't think. The original post specifically talks about Manuel "tinkering with the bullpen early in the season."

I didn't see the report either. What I got from reading the 1st post in this thread, was that Jeff Brantley was blaming Jerry Manuel for Koch's "suckiness" this year. Jerry's tinkering is to blame for a lot of this team's problems. His tinkering had nothing to do with Bill Koch's inability to get guys out early in the year...or now.

OEO Magglio
07-19-2003, 10:45 PM
He didn't know what he was talking about.
Brantley usually doesn't know what he's talking about, when Koch blew the save against Tampa he said that Koch has one of the best fastballs in baseball and can throw 100 mph, Brantley has to start watching some games, and realize that Koch can no longer get anywhere near 100 mph.

TornLabrum
07-19-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
No, Brantley specifically chastized Manuel for demoting Koch, saying he "didn't have too much problems early" in the season and that Manuel's decision to remove Koch was a knee-jerk one. He didn't know what he was talking about.

That's very different from what I read in the first post. I agree with you, then.

ScottySoxFan
07-20-2003, 12:14 AM
Sorry, I didn't really do well at communicating the tone of the segment in my post.

Brantley, in fact, did hammer Manuel for the majority of the segment saying that in order for the team to go anywhere it needed continuity at the closer's position. He talked about Manuel giving up on Foulke early last year and then Koch this year.

Karl Ravech pointed out that "you can't just put Koch out there night after night if he's getting hammered." Brantley agreed and disagreed basically saying that Billy was never given a chance, and that his problems now are because there is no confidence coming from management. He then said that the same thing is happening to the entire team.

I think he's off-base on the whole Koch thing, for sure. In fact, Manuel waited too long to pull the trigger on Koch. Brantley clearly doesn't know everything that is happening in Chicago, but the whole segment shows that there is now a national negative perception brewing about Manuel's decision-making.

TornLabrum
07-20-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by ScottySoxFan
Sorry, I didn't really do well at communicating the tone of the segment in my post.

Brantley, in fact, did hammer Manuel for the majority of the segment saying that in order for the team to go anywhere it needed continuity at the closer's position. He talked about Manuel giving up on Foulke early last year and then Koch this year.

Karl Ravech pointed out that "you can't just put Koch out there night after night if he's getting hammered." Brantley agreed and disagreed basically saying that Billy was never given a chance, and that his problems now are because there is no confidence coming from management. He then said that the same thing is happening to the entire team.

I think he's off-base on the whole Koch thing, for sure. In fact, Manuel waited too long to pull the trigger on Koch. Brantley clearly doesn't know everything that is happening in Chicago, but the whole segment shows that there is now a national negative perception brewing about Manuel's decision-making.

I caught the 11:00 p.m. showing, and this pretty well summarizes it. Brantley was factually wrong. Manuel stuck with Koch. He misstated that after being pulled, Koch lost his velocity. Koch never had his velocity.

Manuel has screwed up enough without "experts" from Bristol misstating the facts.

MisterB
07-20-2003, 04:48 AM
Check out this statistical line:

159 ab, .270/.343/.509, 9 doubles, 9 hr, 30 rbi, 18 bb, 33 k, 7 of 8 stealing

This is what batters have hit off of Billy Koch this season. :(:

gosox41
07-20-2003, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by ScottySoxFan
Brantley on Baseball Tonight talked for about 2 or 3 minutes about the closer situation. He basically said that Manuel's tinkering with the bullpen/closer early in the season set the tone and led to Koch losing his confidence.

He then went on to say that the same things has happened to the whole team. His words, "He set the tone early by putting guys here, and then over here, and taking them out and putting them over here."

Tell us something we don't know.

It's the tinkering with the everyday lineup thath as killed the Sox more then the bullpen.

Koch hasn't lost his confidence, he's lost his fastball and doesn't deserve to pitch anything but garbage time.

Bob

kevingrt
07-20-2003, 10:04 AM
Anyone notice we had the same lineup Friday and Saturday, is that amazing or what????? :gulp:

harwar
07-20-2003, 11:04 AM
Brantley(who is a decent color guy)said that Koch didn't have too many problems early,i think.He said the "i think" part of the paraphrase,i didn't add it on my own.It was at that point when he said "i think" that i realized he was just playing it by ear and had little actual knowledge of the White Sox this season.I mean,Koch came in bad,it wasn't Manuels' doing.
I do think that Jerry may have mishandled Foulke last year by benching him so long.
One more thing,Karl Ravech wasn't on the set last night,it was someone else.I only note this because i've heard Ravech say some very good things about the White Sox from time to time.

soxruleEP
07-20-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
No, Brantley specifically chastized Manuel for demoting Koch, saying he "didn't have too much problems early" in the season and that Manuel's decision to remove Koch was a knee-jerk one. He didn't know what he was talking about.

This is correct. I did see the report and my reaction was to shout out immediately that he didn't know what he was talking about.

he claimed that the reason that Koch was going bad wa s that manuel didn't define the bullpen's roles. Koch had a clearly defined role fromt he start and he didn't get the job done. This is one time I have to agree with the tinkerer.