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Jurr
07-18-2003, 10:33 PM
Could Konerko be starting a second half revival? He's consistently been a first halfer. Could Paulie be stringing together a second half worthy of his contract? He hit a dinger tonight, got another clutch hit, and JUST MISSED a homer in his first at bat. All Mr. Mental needs is his old aggression back, and he may have a tough second half. That could be big for the Sox. Now, if we could only get Carlos Lee out of the 2 hole.

TRL
07-18-2003, 10:55 PM
Hopefully Paulie will get it on track. This offense needs something to get it going. The clutch hit is what we have been missing all year. Hopefully we can stop pissing away bases loaded nobody out situations. That is something that we were great at during the first half.

gosox3072
07-18-2003, 11:09 PM
Mark my words, Paul Konerko will not play tommarow now that hes getting hot. Our manager will decide he needs a rest!

Thunderstruck30
07-18-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by gosox3072
Mark my words, Paul Konerko will not play tommarow now that hes getting hot. Our manager will decide he needs a rest!

Good point.

RKMeibalane
07-19-2003, 09:23 AM
If Konerko is on his way to having a big second half, I think it's fair to say that most people would prefer he cotinue his journey at DH. I'm getting sick and tired of seeing Paulie at 1B, with "you know who" stuck at DH. Why is it that everyone except Jerry Manuel can see that Frank needs to play first base?

****ing idiot ----------------------------------> :jerry

WinningUgly!
07-19-2003, 09:40 AM
Does JM really believe that a defensive upgrade at 1st is more valuable than the boost in offensive production with Frank playing 1st? He really is sleeping through this season.

RKMeibalane
07-19-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Does JM really believe that a defensive upgrade at 1st is more valuable than the boost in offensive production with Frank playing 1st? He really is sleeping through this season.

:jerry

"Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..."

harwar
07-19-2003, 10:28 AM
After Manuel sits in the corner and goes into his trace,the players should secretly take over the game and manipilate the lineup any way they want.
Also,what in the world got into Robbie Alomar?I mean he looked GREAT last night.Heres' hoping that things are looking up for the Sox.

gosox41
07-19-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by harwar
After Manuel sits in the corner and goes into his trace,the players should secretly take over the game and manipilate the lineup any way they want.
Also,what in the world got into Robbie Alomar?I mean he looked GREAT last night.Heres' hoping that things are looking up for the Sox.

I hope Robbie, Carl, Bart, Jose, Carlos, Mark, Jon, and Frank woulddial it up for the rest of the season. This is their last 65 games before ebfore they're free agent's or arbitration eligible. Since this team fails to play as a team, maybe they'll at least figure out wayss to improve their averages and ERA's and ultimately help the team win.

Of course the way this team plays, maybe these guys don't want the big money. It's obvious winning doesn't motivate them much, neither does wanting to prove people wrong about them being underachieving bums. So maybe the chance to make big bucks will light a fire under these guys.

Bob

kevingrt
07-19-2003, 11:37 AM
Isn't this just the oppoiste of last year. Didn't Paulie have an incredible 1st half and then dwindled down as the season went on. I hope he gets his stroke back and starts hitting HR's and getting RBI's. Hopefully he can light up this Sox offense and be in the starting line-up everyday. This team might have too many capable players to start in a game, but they just don't have that superstar player. I hope that doesn't happen but what the hell, if we score runs and win games that's all that matters.

By the way, Paulie wake up Billy Koch too! :D:

WhiteSoxWinner
07-19-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
Could Konerko be starting a second half revival?

Don't worry, if Paulie keeps hitting like this for a few more games, JM will sit him for a couple games to give him a rest.

gosox41
07-19-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt
Isn't this just the oppoiste of last year. Didn't Paulie have an incredible 1st half and then dwindled down as the season went on. I hope he gets his stroke back and starts hitting HR's and getting RBI's. Hopefully he can light up this Sox offense and be in the starting line-up everyday. This team might have too many capable players to start in a game, but they just don't have that superstar player. I hope that doesn't happen but what the hell, if we score runs and win games that's all that matters.

By the way, Paulie wake up Billy Koch too! :D:

I hope Paulie starts hitting so the Sox can trade his sorry a** out of town.

Bob

voodoochile
07-19-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I hope Paulie starts hitting so the Sox can trade his sorry a** out of town.

Bob

2 things...

1)ass is not a banned word, use it freely.
2)I completely agree.

duke of dorwood
07-19-2003, 05:44 PM
:jerry

is an ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass

SoxxoS
07-20-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
:jerry

is an ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass ass


Post of the week.


Also, isn't it great when a 1 for 4 increases your average?!...

FanOf14
07-20-2003, 09:07 AM
Why does Thomas have such a problem hitting if he is DHing? After being in the league for as long as he has, shouldn't he be capable of hitting when being a DH?

What's the deal with the Konerko hate around here? :?:

RKMeibalane
07-20-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Why does Thomas have such a problem hitting if he is DHing? After being in the league for as long as he has, shouldn't he be capable of hitting when being a DH?

Because he doesn't have to concentrate on playing the field when he is the DH, Frank spends a lot of time sitting in the dugout stewing if he has a bad at-bat. This is affects his approach the next time he comes to the plate. If he has another bad at-bat, it just makes it even worse after that.

adsit
07-20-2003, 11:59 AM
I speculate that if he'd gone to Baltimore a few weeks ago, as the rumors had it, and was suddenly hitting like this for the O's, there'd be people holding it up as an example of another Sox front office miscue. I'm not sure how they'd justify that point of view, though? Couldn't say we weren't patient enough with him, could they?

I've come to agree that most of Paulie's struggle has been inside his own head. The roulette wheel JM uses to fill out lineup cards hasn't helped, but I'm not willing to cut him as much slack for blowing his cool over that as I would someone with less experience in the bigs.

Is he finally back? I'm thinking he's trade bait anyway, no matter what he does, because we can get some value for him, while freeing up first base for Thomas, and DH for Everett. We shall see...

Dave

RKMeibalane
07-20-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by adsit
I've come to agree that most of Paulie's struggle has been inside his own head. The roulette wheel JM uses to fill out lineup cards hasn't helped, but I'm not willing to cut him as much slack for blowing his cool over that as I would someone with less experience in the bigs.

Is he finally back? I'm thinking he's trade bait anyway, no matter what he does, because we can get some value for him, while freeing up first base for Thomas, and DH for Everett. We shall see...

Dave

Assuming that Konerko has finally figured out his problems, I think the Sox should look for an opportunity to trade him, especailly if it means that Frank can play first base full time. Carl Everett has been a disaster in center field. I agree with Dave that Everett would be better off as the DH. The Sox already have enough holes definsively. They don't need anymore.

voodoochile
07-20-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Why does Thomas have such a problem hitting if he is DHing? After being in the league for as long as he has, shouldn't he be capable of hitting when being a DH?

What's the deal with the Konerko hate around here? :?:

Who cares WHY he has the problem, it is a simple one to fix.

I don't hate Konerko, but I don't respect him as much as I once did before he refused an assignment to AAA to get back on track. If he can continue to hit, he can play. If not, trade him, fast. Heck, they should trade him anyways. Guys like him are easy to find...

Bobby Thigpen
07-20-2003, 12:36 PM
I don't hate Konerko, but I don't respect him as much as I once did before he refused an assignment to AAA to get back on track.

Cause we all know that Frank and everyone else in the league would have done it.

Please, the reasons for the hate for Konerko, and not just from you Voodoo are getting a little to far fetched as time goes by. I've pretty much stayed off of this site for a while because of these reasons, but that reason is pretty thin.

Did anyone think that maybe the reason Frank isn't playing first and that he sucks right now is that he's a little banged up and won't sit down. I have more belief that he's refusing to sit it out than Jerry's that stupid. :smile:

voodoochile
07-20-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Cause we all know that Frank and everyone else in the league would have done it.

Please, the reasons for the hate for Konerko, and not just from you Voodoo are getting a little to far fetched as time goes by. I've pretty much stayed off of this site for a while because of these reasons, but that reason is pretty thin.

Did anyone think that maybe the reason Frank isn't playing first and that he sucks right now is that he's a little banged up and won't sit down. I have more belief that he's refusing to sit it out than Jerry's that stupid. :smile:

Well, if you want to believe in Jerry, feel free. I have lost all faith in him. Did you see today's lineup?

Okay, here's a reason that can't be argued with. For 12 months, Paulie played bad baseball. He didn't hit for crap. I don't hate him, but I certainly don't want that type of player playing, no matter who he is.

I have no idea if another player would have accepted an AAA assignment. Do you?

Bobby Thigpen
07-20-2003, 12:48 PM
Frank sucked for two years, why didn't he get sent down? (take your pick 98-99 or what little of 01 he played -02, 01-02 would've made even more sense because he was rehabbing.) I don't think that any major leaguer would accept getting sent down, unless they just want out of the organization, and for some stupifying reason Pauly seems to like playing for the Sox.

Hell some guys won't even accept getting moved in the lineup. Who could that be?

voodoochile
07-20-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Frank sucked for two years, why didn't he get sent down? (take your pick 98-99 or what little of 01 he played -02, 01-02 would've made even more sense because he was rehabbing.) I don't think that any major leaguer would accept getting sent down, unless they just want out of the organization, and for some stupifying reason Pauly seems to like playing for the Sox.

Hell some guys won't even accept getting moved in the lineup. Who could that be?

Care to look at those stats again and tell me that Frank was that bad? You really really need to rethink that statement. Frank had solid MLB numbers all of those years (except '01 when he played about a month of the season). He didn't have Frank type numbers, but it wasn't Konerko bad...

gosox41
07-20-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Frank sucked for two years, why didn't he get sent down? (take your pick 98-99 or what little of 01 he played -02, 01-02 would've made even more sense because he was rehabbing.) I don't think that any major leaguer would accept getting sent down, unless they just want out of the organization, and for some stupifying reason Pauly seems to like playing for the Sox.

Hell some guys won't even accept getting moved in the lineup. Who could that be?

Frank and Paul Konerko and almost identical OPS last season. The difference is Frank had a lot mroe walks and Konerko had the average. There was abslolutely no reason to send Frank down in 2002. In 2001 he played in all of 27 games. After which one of those games would you have sent him down after finishing second in MVP in 2000 (assuming you could send him down.) 1998-1999 Frank was still the most productive hitter on the team.

Bob

gosox41
07-20-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Why does Thomas have such a problem hitting if he is DHing? After being in the league for as long as he has, shouldn't he be capable of hitting when being a DH?

What's the deal with the Konerko hate around here? :?:

I don't hate Konerko, I just think he is highly overrated and thus overpaid.

There are two ways a hitter can help his team win: 1. getting on base a lot and 2. hitting for power. The first is the OBP and the second is slugging percentage. Add the two up you have OPS. Batting average and RBI's are not inidcative stats of how effective a player is hitting. Would you rather have the .320 hitter who has like 20 walks over the course of a season or the .280 hitter who walks 90-100 times, assuming they have equal power? RBI's are not an accurate measurement becuase it's based on how well the guys get on base in front of you.

Some say OBP is 3 times as important as slugging percentage when figuring out the equation. For the sake of simplicity, we'll keep them equal and add them together. Last season, Paul had an OPS about .020 higher then Frank (if memory serves correct it was .848 to .828) Not that big of a difference considering they hit a differnece of 2 HR's and Paul hit almost .50 points higher in BA.


So during the offseason the Sox extend Konerko's contract for 3 years at about $8 mill. per year. Comparing Paul's OPS last season to other first basemen makes him an average offensive hitter. Why pay him all that money (not mentioning the pay cut Frank took?)

So that's why I want Paul out of here. His salary is eating up valuable resources which can be applied elsewhere on this team. I don't hate him, I just don't see the need to have him around for $8 mill. per year.

Bob

BKozi
07-20-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I don't hate Konerko, I just think he is highly overrated and thus overpaid.


So during the offseason the Sox extend Konerko's contract for 3 years at about $8 mill. per year. Comparing Paul's OPS last season to other first basemen makes him an average offensive hitter. Why pay him all that money (not mentioning the pay cut Frank took?)

So that's why I want Paul out of here. His salary is eating up valuable resources which can be applied elsewhere on this team. I don't hate him, I just don't see the need to have him around for $8 mill. per year.

Bob
I've been sitting on the fence on Konerko. I've always liked him but it was hard to watch him going out there day after day and sucking it up. The first half last season and the first half of this season were both flukes but he'll be good for .290/25/95 every year. Is he getting overpaid? Probably. Is it hurting the rest of the team? Not really. Except for his struggles the last couple of months (which he seems to be coming out of nicely), he's still one of the top 15 hitting first basemen in the majors. The problem isn't his salary, it's the low team payroll. If Jerry would open the wallet, his salary wouldn't seem so high. You want to talk about an outrageous contract compared to the rest of the team, look up Dean Palmer's contract.

As for Frank, I've always loved Frank Thomas but I think that invoking the "diminished skills" clause was justified. Plus, it looks like Frank is starting to get back to old form. Maybe he had a little incentive? I agree that Frank's numbers weren't terrible the last few years but they weren't Frank-like. Maybe cutting his pay showed him that he can't coast along anymore.

voodoochile
07-20-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by BKozi
As for Frank, I've always loved Frank Thomas but I think that invoking the "diminished skills" clause was justified. Plus, it looks like Frank is starting to get back to old form. Maybe he had a little incentive? I agree that Frank's numbers weren't terrible the last few years but they weren't Frank-like. Maybe cutting his pay showed him that he can't coast along anymore.

Yeah, I hate it when injured guys coast... You want to know what message I see them sending when they do that?

:reinsy
"We don't give a crap if you are a shoe in HOF player who has played his whole career for the Sox. I'll run you out of town if you get injured and then can't return to form immediately. Heck, I'll have my manager single you out until you are publicly humiliated and the press dogs and haters are all calling for you head. I'll make sure you never play the position you hit best at so I can justify not picking up the team option after the season thus forcing you to play for less money or leave. 2 MVP's and another time you finished second because the voters like Giambi's mitt? Yeah, but what have you done for me lately? Now if the fans would line my pockets with a few more million I might allow you to wear the uniform, but only at the right price..."

gosox41
07-21-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by BKozi
I've been sitting on the fence on Konerko. I've always liked him but it was hard to watch him going out there day after day and sucking it up. The first half last season and the first half of this season were both flukes but he'll be good for .290/25/95 every year. Is he getting overpaid? Probably. Is it hurting the rest of the team? Not really. Except for his struggles the last couple of months (which he seems to be coming out of nicely), he's still one of the top 15 hitting first basemen in the majors. The problem isn't his salary, it's the low team payroll. If Jerry would open the wallet, his salary wouldn't seem so high. You want to talk about an outrageous contract compared to the rest of the team, look up Dean Palmer's contract.

As for Frank, I've always loved Frank Thomas but I think that invoking the "diminished skills" clause was justified. Plus, it looks like Frank is starting to get back to old form. Maybe he had a little incentive? I agree that Frank's numbers weren't terrible the last few years but they weren't Frank-like. Maybe cutting his pay showed him that he can't coast along anymore.

I think it sends a bad message from management that the sox would cut a salary of a future HOFer and 13 year veteran of the team while at the same time giving a hefty raise to the supposed leader of the team for putting up identical numbers. Considering Frank was injured and putting up the kind of numbers Paulie can only do in his best year says a lot.

Maybe Baltimore will want ot make that Ponson/Konerko trade now since it's obvious Paulie doesn't havea hip problem and that it was just an excuse for him being a head case.

Bob

BKozi
07-21-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, I hate it when injured guys coast... You want to know what message I see them sending when they do that?

:reinsy
"We don't give a crap if you are a shoe in HOF player who has played his whole career for the Sox. I'll run you out of town if you get injured and then can't return to form immediately. Heck, I'll have my manager single you out until you are publicly humiliated and the press dogs and haters are all calling for you head. I'll make sure you never play the position you hit best at so I can justify not picking up the team option after the season thus forcing you to play for less money or leave. 2 MVP's and another time you finished second because the voters like Giambi's mitt? Yeah, but what have you done for me lately? Now if the fans would line my pockets with a few more million I might allow you to wear the uniform, but only at the right price..."

What injury are you referring to in '98, '99, and '02? He was injured for part of one year (which he started off pretty poorly anyways). I'll give you the first half of 2002 because he was coming back off an injury but the other 2 (and his BA this year) have nothing to do with being injured. Either his HR's, AVG, and/or RBI have been way down from his previous career #'s in '98, '99, '02 and '03. Maybe you misunderstood me so I'll repeat what I said, I love Frank. But has there been something wrong since '98? I think there has. As I have said in other posts, I think a lot of it has to do with him being unhappy at playing DH instead of first or maybe he had other issues, but regardless, I think he's one of those guys that you need to give incentive too to get the most out of him.

As for being a "a shoe in HOF player", I don't think that he should pose for his Cooperstown plaque just yet. The HOF is based on numbers and how players are remembered, not for what they actually did. I want Frank in the HOF as much as anybody and I think he'll probably make it. But if he "coasts" through the rest of his career and ends with a .280 BA or less than 500 HR, he's probably not going to Cooperstown. I think that he's getting back to his old form and he'll earn a trip, but with this team, never take anything for granted.

TornLabrum
07-21-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by BKozi
What injury are you referring to in '98, '99, and '02? He was injured for part of one year (which he started off pretty poorly anyways). I'll give you the first half of 2002 because he was coming back off an injury but the other 2 (and his BA this year) have nothing to do with being injured. Either his HR's, AVG, and/or RBI have been way down from his previous career #'s in '98, '99, '02 and '03. Maybe you misunderstood me so I'll repeat what I said, I love Frank. But has there been something wrong since '98? I think there has. As I have said in other posts, I think a lot of it has to do with him being unhappy at playing DH instead of first or maybe he had other issues, but regardless, I think he's one of those guys that you need to give incentive too to get the most out of him.

As for being a "a shoe in HOF player", I don't think that he should pose for his Cooperstown plaque just yet. The HOF is based on numbers and how players are remembered, not for what they actually did. I want Frank in the HOF as much as anybody and I think he'll probably make it. But if he "coasts" through the rest of his career and ends with a .280 BA or less than 500 HR, he's probably not going to Cooperstown. I think that he's getting back to his old form and he'll earn a trip, but with this team, never take anything for granted.

You obviously bought the Sox' medical experts opinion that there was nothing wrong with him at the end of the 1999 season when he went home early, the slacker!

I mean, if he can't play with a bone spur the size of a walnut in his heel, he should go home and stew.

voodoochile
07-21-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by BKozi
What injury are you referring to in '98, '99, and '02? He was injured for part of one year (which he started off pretty poorly anyways). I'll give you the first half of 2002 because he was coming back off an injury but the other 2 (and his BA this year) have nothing to do with being injured. Either his HR's, AVG, and/or RBI have been way down from his previous career #'s in '98, '99, '02 and '03. Maybe you misunderstood me so I'll repeat what I said, I love Frank. But has there been something wrong since '98? I think there has. As I have said in other posts, I think a lot of it has to do with him being unhappy at playing DH instead of first or maybe he had other issues, but regardless, I think he's one of those guys that you need to give incentive too to get the most out of him.

As for being a "a shoe in HOF player", I don't think that he should pose for his Cooperstown plaque just yet. The HOF is based on numbers and how players are remembered, not for what they actually did. I want Frank in the HOF as much as anybody and I think he'll probably make it. But if he "coasts" through the rest of his career and ends with a .280 BA or less than 500 HR, he's probably not going to Cooperstown. I think that he's getting back to his old form and he'll earn a trip, but with this team, never take anything for granted.

Well, in 1999, Frank missed the last month of the season for foot surgery when he had a deposit the size of a walnut taken out of his ankle. Doctors said they were surprised he was even walking let alone playing baseball all season.

In 2002 he was clearly still recovering from the previous season's injury. It was very evident watching him swing the bat and wince all the time, especially early in the year. Torn Tricepts take 2 years to fully heal, so you can say he wasn't injured in 2002 because he played the whole season, but he wasn't fully healed.

Your crazy, Frank is a shoe in for the HOF. He has the 7th highest OBP in league history. If he isn't in on his present stats, they should close the place...

maurice
07-21-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
Could Konerko be starting a second half revival?

Impossible! He's done because of his degenerative hip condition.

It's about damn time. Light 'em up, Paulie. :gulp: