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kermittheefrog
07-18-2003, 02:18 AM
THIS LOSS WAS COMPLETELY JERRY MANUEL'S FAULT. We're in the first game after the all-star break, every pitcher in the pen is well rested. We're playing the Tigers, so down a few runs we're still completely in the game. So Manuel goes to the last guy in the pen when he could go with anyone he wants. The Tigers predictably keep scoring runs off Dave Sanders and we lose the game despite a nice showing by our offense. All Manuel had to do was give the good relievers some work and it would have kept us in the game, probably would have given us a win. But no, just because we were down he goes with Sanders. $#@*%*$ moron.

gosox41
07-18-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
THIS LOSS WAS COMPLETELY JERRY MANUEL'S FAULT. We're in the first game after the all-star break, every pitcher in the pen is well rested. We're playing the Tigers, so down a few runs we're still completely in the game. So Manuel goes to the last guy in the pen when he could go with anyone he wants. The Tigers predictably keep scoring runs off Dave Sanders and we lose the game despite a nice showing by our offense. All Manuel had to do was give the good relievers some work and it would have kept us in the game, probably would have given us a win. But no, just because we were down he goes with Sanders. $#@*%*$ moron.

Good to see you finally coming over to the darkside. Don't underestimate out power. :D:

hold2dibber
07-18-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
THIS LOSS WAS COMPLETELY JERRY MANUEL'S FAULT. We're in the first game after the all-star break, every pitcher in the pen is well rested. We're playing the Tigers, so down a few runs we're still completely in the game. So Manuel goes to the last guy in the pen when he could go with anyone he wants. The Tigers predictably keep scoring runs off Dave Sanders and we lose the game despite a nice showing by our offense. All Manuel had to do was give the good relievers some work and it would have kept us in the game, probably would have given us a win. But no, just because we were down he goes with Sanders. $#@*%*$ moron.

Great point. JM may be the worst manager in the last 40 years (other than Bevington, of course) in terms of managing the bullpen. He's a complete idiot.

TornLabrum
07-18-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
THIS LOSS WAS COMPLETELY JERRY MANUEL'S FAULT. We're in the first game after the all-star break, every pitcher in the pen is well rested. We're playing the Tigers, so down a few runs we're still completely in the game. So Manuel goes to the last guy in the pen when he could go with anyone he wants. The Tigers predictably keep scoring runs off Dave Sanders and we lose the game despite a nice showing by our offense. All Manuel had to do was give the good relievers some work and it would have kept us in the game, probably would have given us a win. But no, just because we were down he goes with Sanders. $#@*%*$ moron.

Manuel felt that the better relief pitchers needed a rest after the strenuous All-Star Break.

jeremyb1
07-18-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
THIS LOSS WAS COMPLETELY JERRY MANUEL'S FAULT. We're in the first game after the all-star break, every pitcher in the pen is well rested. We're playing the Tigers, so down a few runs we're still completely in the game. So Manuel goes to the last guy in the pen when he could go with anyone he wants. The Tigers predictably keep scoring runs off Dave Sanders and we lose the game despite a nice showing by our offense. All Manuel had to do was give the good relievers some work and it would have kept us in the game, probably would have given us a win. But no, just because we were down he goes with Sanders. $#@*%*$ moron.

i disagree here. we only have two especially reliable pitchers in the pen right now with gordon and marte. you could call white reliable i suppose since he's pitched well lately but after those three guys you're left with koch, sanders, and glover. i agree that you don't go to the back of the pen just because we're four runs but i think you have to go to the back of the pen because your starter was pulled in the fourth inning. there were 5 1/3 innings left in the game. i can't see pitching white 2 1/3, marte 2, and gordon an inning. that most likely leaves gordon available for only an inning the next day and the other two completely unavailable. what if we have a one run game in the 7th or 8th tommorow and need to go to the pen?

delben91
07-18-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
what if we have a one run game in the 7th or 8th tommorow and need to go to the pen?

We're playing the mighty Tigers jeremy...we'll be lucky to be within a run of them, let alone ahead...

Jerko
07-18-2003, 08:21 AM
The only difference (managerial wise) between Bevington and Manuel is that when Bevington screws up the bullpen he doesn't tire anybody out because nobody is warming up as he's attempting to make a pitching change. That's it. Besides that, they're the same guy.

harwar
07-18-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
The only difference (managerial wise) between Bevington and Manuel is that when Bevington screws up the bullpen he doesn't tire anybody out because nobody is warming up as he's attempting to make a pitching change. That's it. Besides that, they're the same guy.

At least BOOM BOOM was laughable.Manuel is so far over his head that its just sad.

soxruleEP
07-18-2003, 09:11 AM
Not to downplay his utter inability to handle a pitching staff and his insane desire to never field the same lineup in consecutive games, I believe thee biggest problem with Manuel is his lack of urgency. This communciates to a team that is NEVER ready to play except for the most white hot games (e.g. Cubs and Twins). He must be fired, preferably before tonight's game.

If you can't get your team ready to play the worst team in the league when the team ahead of you in the standings is playing the best team, you are the worst.

And I don't think they should use the rain delay as an excuse. I knew they would play that game. Bossard said at 6 Pm all they had to do was wait for the field to drain.

CHISOXFAN13
07-18-2003, 09:21 AM
At this point, I want Manuel gone as much as everybody else, but let's be realistic here.

Did anyone honestly believe we'd score eight runs in the last four innings and lose by one?? If so, you obviously are watching a different team than I have this season.

You have guys like Sanders, who actually has pitched pretty well (IE. last Sunday when he ket us in the game), for games like last night. We were getting clobbered, and I'm not sure who everyone thought was a better option to bring into the game in the top of the fourth? Marte? Gordon?

You can bash Manuel all you want, and I will join in most of the time. But maybe we should look at No. 40 and start pointing a finger at him. He hasn't exactly been a savior. Hell, when was the last time he won a game. Beat the Tigers, Colon.

fledgedrallycap
07-18-2003, 09:23 AM
At what point in the season can we start enjoying the fact the Sox are losing, just so they can see what we already know?

Jerko
07-18-2003, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
At this point, I want Manuel gone as much as everybody else, but let's be realistic here.

Did anyone honestly believe we'd score eight runs in the last four innings and lose by one?? If so, you obviously are watching a different team than I have this season.

You have guys like Sanders, who actually has pitched pretty well (IE. last Sunday when he ket us in the game), for games like last night. We were getting clobbered, and I'm not sure who everyone thought was a better option to bring into the game in the top of the fourth? Marte? Gordon?

You can bash Manuel all you want, and I will join in most of the time. But maybe we should look at No. 40 and start pointing a finger at him. He hasn't exactly been a savior. Hell, when was the last time he won a game. Beat the Tigers, Colon.

You can stick up for Manuel all you want, but #40 has only been on this team for 4 months; I've seen last night's game at least 50 times the last few years. I agree Colon has been brutal, but I bet if we trade him he suddenly regains his touch.

ChiSoxBobette
07-18-2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
THIS LOSS WAS COMPLETELY JERRY MANUEL'S FAULT. We're in the first game after the all-star break, every pitcher in the pen is well rested. We're playing the Tigers, so down a few runs we're still completely in the game. So Manuel goes to the last guy in the pen when he could go with anyone he wants. The Tigers predictably keep scoring runs off Dave Sanders and we lose the game despite a nice showing by our offense. All Manuel had to do was give the good relievers some work and it would have kept us in the game, probably would have given us a win. But no, just because we were down he goes with Sanders. $#@*%*$ moron.
Ed Farmer said it at the beginning of this year our whole season would depend on how well Manuel uses his bullpen, and as we've seen Jerry Manuel after 6 years still does'nt know what he's doing especially when it comes to handling the pitching staff. Last year it was the starting pitchers(taking them out when they could have gone a couple of more innings) this year the bullpen pitchers. I've also heard that he was one of the big supporters of getting rid of Kieth Foulke another pitcher who go's to another ball club and regains his form while we have to go with Koch. In my opinion they gave up on Foulke way to soon as evidenced by his record this year and him being picked as an All-Star. I know we are probably going to finish this season with Manuel as our manager so get ready for the big player sale, say so long to Colon,Loiaza,Valentin,Lee,Alomar,Everett and say good ridence to Koch. I say this because after last night the Sox are done and I really don't think Manuel cares why else would he continue to let Thomas DH when Frank should be playing 1st base let Konerko DH. Frank has proven this year he's a better hitter when he plays 1st so why does Manuel DH him simple Manuel does'nt care anymore.

dickallen15
07-18-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
You can stick up for Manuel all you want, but #40 has only been on this team for 4 months; I've seen last night's game at least 50 times the last few years. I agree Colon has been brutal, but I bet if we trade him he suddenly regains his touch.

Colon warmed up 3 times yesterday and waited 3 hours from when he first warmed up to the time the game started. He should have been sat down after the second warm up, and saved for perhaps tonights game. Manuel could have used any starter to take his turn, they were all rested. Manuel's weaknesses as a manager were exposed by Sweet Lou in the 2000 playoffs, and he has done nothing to improve them. When is enough enough. FIRE JM NOW.

hold2dibber
07-18-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
At this point, I want Manuel gone as much as everybody else, but let's be realistic here.

Did anyone honestly believe we'd score eight runs in the last four innings and lose by one?? If so, you obviously are watching a different team than I have this season.

You're missing the point. When they brought Sanders in, they were only down 4-0, IIRC. They wouldn't have been down by 9 runs if they hadn't sent Sanders out there and left him out there while he got his brains bashed in.

Clarkdog
07-18-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
Not to downplay his utter inability to handle a pitching staff and his insane desire to never field the same lineup in consecutive games, I believe thee biggest problem with Manuel is his lack of urgency. This communciates to a team that is NEVER ready to play except for the most white hot games (e.g. Cubs and Twins). He must be fired, preferably before tonight's game.

If you can't get your team ready to play the worst team in the league when the team ahead of you in the standings is playing the best team, you are the worst.


This is the best post I've seen to justify the firing of Jerry Manuel. This is precisely the difference between Manuel and Pena. Not to say that Pena is some tactical master, but the Royals come to play every day. The Sox despite the nine run output last night did not come to play until they realized that they were being slapped around by the worst team in baseball in perhaps 40 years.

See ya Jerry.

CHISOXFAN13
07-18-2003, 10:02 AM
OK, if I'm missing the point, then someone please tell me who should have pitched in the FOURTH inning.

dickallen15
07-18-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
This is the best post I've seen to justify the firing of Jerry Manuel. This is precisely the difference between Manuel and Pena. Not to say that Pena is some tactical master, but the Royals come to play every day. The Sox despite the nine run output last night did not come to play until they realized that they were being slapped around by the worst team in baseball in perhaps 40 years.

See ya Jerry.

If you remember back to 1995 when LaMont was dumped for Bevington. It happened about 50-60 games into the season, and the organization was being criticized for too quick a hook. JR commented that LaMont should have been let go the first week of the season because he didn't have the team ready to play out of spring training. This team wasn't ready to play out of spring training, and except for the 12 game stretch against the Cubs and Twins, hasn' t been ready to play all season. Why the double standard. The guy making out the line-up card is a louse, he needs to be replaced before the entire upper and lower bowls of the Cell look like the Blue Man Group.

Jerko
07-18-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You're missing the point. When they brought Sanders in, they were only down 4-0, IIRC. They wouldn't have been down by 9 runs if they hadn't sent Sanders out there and left him out there while he got his brains bashed in.


We can't diss JM for this because now somebody is going to come on here and say "There's no way of knowing the Sox would have won if JM used somebody instead of Sanders". Well, that may be true, but what I do know is the Sox LOST and a pitching move has come under scrutiny for causing the loss AGAIN, just as it has for 3 years now. But I guess since managers don't bat, pitch, field, are not supposed to motivate players or teach them fundamentals, it won't really do us any good to get rid of Manuel cause he already doesn't do all that.

koch44
07-18-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You're missing the point. When they brought Sanders in, they were only down 4-0, IIRC. They wouldn't have been down by 9 runs if they hadn't sent Sanders out there and left him out there while he got his brains bashed in.

No, it was 5-1, because that dumbass Manuel never takes out a starter unless he gives up 5 runs. :angry:

dickallen15
07-18-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by koch44
No, it was 5-1, because that dumbass Manuel never takes out a starter unless he gives up 5 runs. :angry:

He'll take them out if the've giving up 4 , but the bases have to be loaded with less than 2 out.

MarkEdward
07-18-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
THIS LOSS WAS COMPLETELY JERRY MANUEL'S FAULT.

So who would you bring in after Colon was taken out so early? Obviously, you need to put in a long reliever (unless you're willing to put Gordon and Marte in for three innings each). That leaves you with the option of Glover, Sanders, or White. Each one of these pitchers has been very bad (Glover: -3.8 ARP; Sanders: -3.4; White: -5.3). So even if you do put in Glover or White instead of Sanders, there's no certainty that these guys will be lights out.

SoxOnTop
07-18-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward So even if you do put in Glover or White instead of Sanders, there's no certainty that these guys will be lights out. [/B]

True, but isn't Glover supposed to be our "long reliever". I distinctly recall Manual saying that Glover isn't getting many innings becuase the starters have been going so deep into ball games. I don't know about you, but this looks like the perfect scenario for a long reliever.

kermittheefrog
07-18-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So who would you bring in after Colon was taken out so early? Obviously, you need to put in a long reliever (unless you're willing to put Gordon and Marte in for three innings each). That leaves you with the option of Glover, Sanders, or White. Each one of these pitchers has been very bad (Glover: -3.8 ARP; Sanders: -3.4; White: -5.3). So even if you do put in Glover or White instead of Sanders, there's no certainty that these guys will be lights out.

Personally I trust Glover and White a lot more than Sanders. Prior to this year Glover has actually been good out the pen (although abysmal as a starter). White has a solid career record and has been okay except for a terrible May. Sanders' history is that he was a decent reliever in the minors and coming into last night's game he had 21 unimpressive innings in the majors. Sanders is the last guy I'd go to in a winnable game. Go to anybody but him.

And I also don't have a problem with heavily using Tom Gordon because he isn't going to be with the team next year. Wear his arm out for all I care. Do your best to win the winnable games. You can't manage for a close game tomorrow because you don't know the game will be close tomorrow.

CHISOXFAN13
07-18-2003, 03:39 PM
White did pitch three innings, and Gordon is our closer. I'm sure everyone here would have been thrilled with Manuel putting Gordon in the game in the fourth.

SHEESH.

jeremyb1
07-18-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Personally I trust Glover and White a lot more than Sanders. Prior to this year Glover has actually been good out the pen (although abysmal as a starter). White has a solid career record and has been okay except for a terrible May. Sanders' history is that he was a decent reliever in the minors and coming into last night's game he had 21 unimpressive innings in the majors. Sanders is the last guy I'd go to in a winnable game. Go to anybody but him.

And I also don't have a problem with heavily using Tom Gordon because he isn't going to be with the team next year. Wear his arm out for all I care. Do your best to win the winnable games. You can't manage for a close game tomorrow because you don't know the game will be close tomorrow.

yeah, as i said earlier i think the fourth inning is too early to call on white since he's our third best guy in the pen. if i'm manuel i wouldn't have pitched white at all last night in a 9-1 game. he should've gone with sanders, glover, and koch in my opinion.

as for glover over sanders early, i would've rather seen that too especially since i feel glover has much more potential to be a key part of the pen and sanders has seen more work than glover as of late. however, as far as glover giving us a better chance of winning the game, while i feel its manuel's fault for not giving him more regular work, glover has not pitched well since the beginning of the season. i can't say i would've been all that much more comfortable with him out there.

jeremyb1
07-18-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Ed Farmer said it at the beginning of this year our whole season would depend on how well Manuel uses his bullpen, and as we've seen Jerry Manuel after 6 years still does'nt know what he's doing especially when it comes to handling the pitching staff.

there have certainly been times i've disagreed with manuel's use of the pen this season. that said, i think its important to consider the fact that there's virtually no way manuel could look good in his use of the pen when its been as terrible as it has been. he's more or less had two good relievers all season long (three when wunsch was healthy). therefore, whenever he's been unable to bring in one of his top guys, any move he makes is very easily critisized because it doesn't turn out well.

look at the era's of the pitchers currently in our pen:

marte - 1.66
gordon - 3.35
glover - 5.17
koch - 5.58
white - 5.66
sanders - 6.14

what those numbers mean is that anytime manuel can't bring in gordon or marte (such as innings 4-7 last night) any pitcher he brings in is more likely than not to give up a run if he pitches one inning. how do you make good managerial moves like that? how do you keep a game close in the 4th inning when you are already down 5-1 and are forced to pull your starter? i certainly couldn't tell you.

MarkEdward
07-18-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
[B]Personally I trust Glover and White a lot more than Sanders. Prior to this year Glover has actually been good out the pen (although abysmal as a starter).

But Glover has been bad this year, as bad as Sanders.

White has a solid career record and has been okay except for a terrible May.

You're right, but you can't just ignore those May numbers.

Sanders' history is that he was a decent reliever in the minors and coming into last night's game he had 21 unimpressive innings in the majors. Sanders is the last guy I'd go to in a winnable game. Go to anybody but him.

Here's my point: this year, there has been no real difference between White, Glover, and Sanders. If you put any one of these guys in yesterday's situation, all these men are going to give up some runs.

And I also don't have a problem with heavily using Tom Gordon because he isn't going to be with the team next year. Wear his arm out for all I care. Do your best to win the winnable games. You can't manage for a close game tomorrow because you don't know the game will be close tomorrow.

Well, we still need Gordon for the rest of the year, so we shouldn't start overworking him in mid-July.

I do agree your second point, but considering our offense this year, Manuel probably believed there was little chance to win.