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Viva Magglio
07-17-2003, 04:30 PM
Today, Mike North is race baiting again with an assault on the Negro Leagues. He is basically saying that Negro Leaguers who did not play Major League Baseball should not be in the Hall of Fame. He tries to craft his argument on preexisting rules the Hall of Fame has, but the overtones are very racial. North said, among other things, that inclusion of Negro League greats in the Hall of Fame is a "handout" to address pre-1947 MLB discrimination against African-Americans. To further rub salt in the wound, he is making fun of players with nicknames such as "Cool Papa" Bell or "Double Duty" Radcliffe. North is having callers come up with "their own" Negro League nicknames.

It may be ratings suicide, but the Score has to get rid of this ignoramus. Before any of you cite the First Amendment in trying to argue that it would be wrong for the Score to fire North over what he says, let me remind you that the First Amendment protects individuals from criminal prosecution. It does not protect individuals from losing their jobs because said individuals are subject to a code of conduct established by the respective employer. Firing Mike North over what he says is well within the Score's right.

I think we should bombard Drew Hayes and Rod Zimmerman with e-mail messages expressing our dissatisfaction with sports radio's answer to Archie Bunker. I do not know their e-mail addresses, alas.

MarqSox
07-17-2003, 04:34 PM
My question: Why do you listen to this guy to begin with? It's not like Moronotti, where you are basically forced to at least glance at his headline if you are a Sun-Times reader ... just turn the freakin station. That's really the only way he's gonna lose his job anyway, is if all you people who listen "just to see what he'll say next" stop listening. Turn on ESPN Radio ... Dan Patrick may be arrogant, but at least he knows what he's talking about.

Viva Magglio
07-17-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
My question: Why do you listen to this guy to begin with? It's not like Moronotti, where you are basically forced to at least glance at his headline if you are a Sun-Times reader ... just turn the freakin station. That's really the only way he's gonna lose his job anyway, is if all you people who listen "just to see what he'll say next" stop listening. Turn on ESPN Radio ... Dan Patrick may be arrogant, but at least he knows what he's talking about.

I don't listen to North that much anymore. I just happened to catch him doing this today. In the afternoons, I'll listen to either Newsradio 780 WBBM or ESPN Radio 1000. As for Dan Patrick, I don't listen to him simply because he's not local. I prefer my sports talk to be local; I don't need some national host tell me how the Colorado Rockies are doing.

fledgedrallycap
07-17-2003, 04:39 PM
Ever since North got his big deal earlier this year, he has been an even bigger air-hole than he was before. Now that he makes seven figures, it's as though he must act like a shock-jock. He is saying things like that to get a rise out of people and to get his name in the Cubune or Times, he isn't racist nor do I believe he thinks that - I mean his whole staff is black. I honestly think The Score will be dead in about a year, Boers is leaving in September, and Bernsien won't be as funny, Jiggs is gone and with North drowning out Buffone - there won't be a descent show on that entire station.

Viva Magglio
07-17-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Ever since North got his big deal earlier this year, he has been an even bigger air-hole than he was before. Now that he makes seven figures, it's as though he must act like a shock-jock. He is saying things like that to get a rise out of people and to get his name in the Cubune or Times, he isn't racist nor do I believe he thinks that - I mean his whole staff is black. I honestly think The Score will be dead in about a year, Boers is leaving in September, and Bernsien won't be as funny, Jiggs is gone and with North drowning out Buffone - there won't be a descent show on that entire station.

If North's producers, Eric Beverly and Herm Lawrence, could take on their boss, they would. I really think North harbors a lot of the things he says on the air. I see where you are coming from on the shock-jock angle, but North consistently is Archie Bunker on the air.

KingXerxes
07-17-2003, 04:59 PM
Ever since WSCR came onto the air, it has stunk.

They stick with guys who are just terrible radio hosts.

My WSCR Hall of Shame team has to be Van Lier and Buffone. They were easily the most painful duo to listen to in the history of Chicago radio.

I swear to you I think I could pull people off the street and they would do a better job than "Uh - um - Jess - uhhhhh - sie - umda -uh - Rod - uh -um - gers, and uhhhhh - I - ga - Mike - hymm - Nort."

baseballboy
07-17-2003, 05:48 PM
What North said may not be very nice, but is it totally untrue? I don't want to piss anyone off here or come across as a racist because I am definately not. I hate everyone equally. No seriously, if what he said was that MLB has broken its own hall of fame rules to get them in there then he is right. They never played Major League Baseball. They have no stats in Major League Baseball and there is nothing that can change that. No matter who stopped them from playing, they still didnt play. This is MLBs way of trying to fix a wrong done over 50 years ago. He is very correct about those two things if that is in fact what he said. That said I do believe making fun nicknames and asking people to come up with their own is not necessary. I don't like North an don't listen to his show. However, if what you said is what he said then he is correct.

MarqSox
07-17-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
What North said may not be very nice, but is it totally untrue? I don't want to piss anyone off here or come across as a racist because I am definately not. I hate everyone equally. No seriously, if what he said was that MLB has broken its own hall of fame rules to get them in there then he is right. They never played Major League Baseball. They have no stats in Major League Baseball and there is nothing that can change that.

That's really really faulty logic. There's dozens of people in the Hall who never even played, period. There's a whole wing just for announcers. The Hall is a museum of baseball, not a museum of Major League Baseball. Sure, MLB is a major component, but there's more to baseball, and the Negro Leagues are a critical part.

brewcrew/chisox
07-17-2003, 06:01 PM
said it once and i'll say it again.

North is a friggn idiot

39thandWallace
07-17-2003, 06:03 PM
I have a 2 hour drive home everyday and I enjoy listening to Mike North. I like the variety of his show that it is not just 24hr's of sports talk.

He is the heart and soul of that station if they got rid of him they might as well pull the plug. I don't think he is racist I think he's real.

MarqSox
07-17-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace
I have a 2 hour drive home everyday and I enjoy listening to Mike North. I like the variety of his show that it is not just 24hr's of sports talk.

He is the heart and soul of that station if they got rid of him they might as well pull the plug. I don't think he is racist I think he's real.

Racists are real.

And if you want to listen to a show that isn't all sports and actually has a little intelligence, turn on Tony Kornheiser.

39thandWallace
07-17-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Racists are real.

And if you want to listen to a show that isn't all sports and actually has a little intelligence, turn on Tony Kornheiser.

He is as racist as David Chappelle, or Bernie Mac or any Black comedian for that matter that still makes fun of white people in there comedy act.

I think racism is a lot more than saying words, but treating other races differently is racism.

baseballboy
07-17-2003, 06:22 PM
Im sorry. You are correct most announcers never played. However they did announce for Major League Baseball. Major League Umpires are also in there, but they never played. I just contact the baseball hall of fame about their qualifications to be put on the ballot. Prior to and after they allowed negro league players in the hall of fame. I will let you know once they respond what the qualifications are/were.

baseballboy
07-17-2003, 06:25 PM
I agree with 39th and wallace. Racist is a very strong word. I don't take offense to what black comedians say, it is just in fun and for the most part untrue. I didn't take offense to what Dusty said either, however I would think that he offended Black people and Hispanics more than he did white people with his remarks. He didn't sound very eduacted when he made those remarks. I did however take offense to Barry Bond's comments of wanting to break Babe's records and Brett's hits and that he didnt care about Aaron's or Mays' record or hits. Very strange man and very hard to like.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2003, 07:23 PM
I do not have an issue with any of the greats from the Negro League being admitted to the Hall of Fame...

I do take issue though with the NUMBER of players being admitted. When great Negro League players like Buck O"Neill start questioning some of the players who were admitted then you have an issue.

I say put Minnie Minoso and Billy Pierce in before some of the "marginal" Negro League players. That smacks of a "quota system" being in place and that's simply wrong.

Lip

duke of dorwood
07-17-2003, 07:38 PM
WSCR has been a joke for 10 years, and THAT is their star? I listened to his racial rants for a long time, they didnt bother me, til I figured out how he sucked up to his targets when speaking to them. He's a fake, and why ANYONE would turn on 670 is one of the great marvels of the ages. It contributes NOTHING.

1951Campbell
07-17-2003, 11:44 PM
The point of the HOF is to honor anyone who was a great ballplayer in America, period. I don't think it's unrealistic to extrapolate the fact that may Negro League ballplayers would be in the HOF if blacks were allowed to play back in the day. I'm sure we can all think of borderline HOF white guys whose talents are far surpassed by Satch, Josh Gibson, and Oscar Robertson...I mean, if those three guys don't have a chance, how does Wade Boggs? How does Ron Santo present an argument?

hose
07-18-2003, 05:46 AM
A few years back , I want to say 1996, before Nellie Fox was admitted to the Hall of fame I was at Sox Fest and I remember seeing Ed "Double Duty" Ratcliffe at a table with a petition for Sox fans to sign to get him in the Hall of Fame.

As I walked past Double Duty sitting in a wheel chair a lady asked me to sign.

I stopped and replied, " When Nellie Fox gets put into the Hall of Fame I might consider signing, but until then forget it."

MarqSox
07-18-2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by hose
I stopped and replied, " When Nellie Fox gets put into the Hall of Fame I might consider signing, but until then forget it."

Nellie Fox is in the Hall of Fame.

D'Angelo F Death
07-18-2003, 08:45 AM
Yes he is. And any good Sox fan should realize that the one glaring HOF ommission is Minoso...put the man in please! He's like 80 and yeah he seems to be the picture of health, but, come on. Time's a wasting.

ChiSoxBobette
07-18-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Today, Mike North is race baiting again with an assault on the Negro Leagues. He is basically saying that Negro Leaguers who did not play Major League Baseball should not be in the Hall of Fame. He tries to craft his argument on preexisting rules the Hall of Fame has, but the overtones are very racial. North said, among other things, that inclusion of Negro League greats in the Hall of Fame is a "handout" to address pre-1947 MLB discrimination against African-Americans. To further rub salt in the wound, he is making fun of players with nicknames such as "Cool Papa" Bell or "Double Duty" Radcliffe. North is having callers come up with "their own" Negro League nicknames.

It may be ratings suicide, but the Score has to get rid of this ignoramus. Before any of you cite the First Amendment in trying to argue that it would be wrong for the Score to fire North over what he says, let me remind you that the First Amendment protects individuals from criminal prosecution. It does not protect individuals from losing their jobs because said individuals are subject to a code of conduct established by the respective employer. Firing Mike North over what he says is well within the Score's right.

I think we should bombard Drew Hayes and Rod Zimmerman with e-mail messages expressing our dissatisfaction with sports radio's answer to Archie Bunker. I do not know their e-mail addresses, alas.

Why do you continue to drag yourself through the agony of listening to sappy! You should be put up for sainthood.

Procol Harum
07-18-2003, 09:38 AM
I'm all for some sort of recognition of the top Negro League stars in the Hall of Fame, but it should be in the form of an appendix list or a special wing of the physical building (and I remember a pretty big exhibit on the Negro Leagues when I visited Cooperstown in 1990).

Facts are facts whether we would like the history to have been different with the benefit of our 20-20 moral hindsight. These guys didn't get the chance to play MLB so the basis for comparison is tough, especially as the standard of play in the Negro Leagues was probably, overall, somewhere in the region of AAA ball. So the numbers of a Josh Gibson have to be considered within that context. Gibson would surely have been a great MLB star, and probably, it seems, a HOF'er. But, he wouldn't have racked up his numbers against a steady diet of MLB pitching.

jabrch
07-18-2003, 09:55 AM
Doesn't bother me so much...I look at most of those guys as comedians. North is a comedian, more like a clown than a comedian. You laugh, sometimes at him, sometimes with him, but he is a fool.

I just don't take anything he says about anything except hotdog joints seriously.

MarqSox
07-18-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
These guys didn't get the chance to play MLB so the basis for comparison is tough, especially as the standard of play in the Negro Leagues was probably, overall, somewhere in the region of AAA ball.

You could just as easily argue that, without minorities in MLB, that MLB was like AAA ball also. I mean, the fact is, neither MLB nor the Negro Leagues had all of the top talent ... so what makes you believe there was more top talent among whites than among blacks? If you put, say, Jimmie Foxx up against Satchel Paige's Kansas City Monarchs, would he have hit 50 homers? Point is we don't know, and to assume that white players were better just because they played under the grand auspices of Major League Baseball is quite an assumption indeed.

voodoochile
07-18-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
You could just as easily argue that, without minorities in MLB, that MLB was like AAA ball also. I mean, the fact is, neither MLB nor the Negro Leagues had all of the top talent ... so what makes you believe there was more top talent among whites than among blacks? If you put, say, Jimmie Foxx up against Satchel Paige's Kansas City Monarchs, would he have hit 50 homers? Point is we don't know, and to assume that white players were better just because they played under the grand auspices of Major League Baseball is quite an assumption indeed.

Population numbers alone would justify that. There simply wasn't the talent pool to pick from. That's why high schools with 3000 students regularly destroy high schools with 500 students at most sports.

maurice
07-18-2003, 12:50 PM
There's no question that Satchel Paige and other Negro League stars were better players than some of the white MLB players in the HOF. The quality of MLB was substantially diminished by the exclusion of black ballplayers. To put it in context, imagine the diminished talent level of MLB in the 1990s without Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey, Jr., etc.

The HOF is not intended to include only the top MLB players. Eligibility Rules (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/veterans/rules.htm):

Eligible Candidates — Eligible candidates must be selected from:

(A) Major League players who competed in any portion of at least ten (10) championship seasons and who have been retired as players for at least twenty-one (21) years. In addition, players whose service in the Negro Baseball Leagues prior to 1946 and the Major Leagues thereafter total at least ten years or portions thereof are defined as eligible candidates.

(B) Baseball Executives and/or Managers and/or Umpires who have been retired from organized Baseball as Baseball Executives and/or Managers and/or Umpires for at least five (5) years prior to the election. If the candidate is 65 years old at the time of retirement, the waiting period is reduced to six (6) months. If the candidate reaches the age of 65 during the five-year waiting period the candidate becomes eligible six months after the candidate's 65th birthday.

(C) Those whose careers entailed involvement as both players and managers/executives/umpires will be considered for their overall contribution to the game of Baseball; however, the specific category in which such individuals shall be considered will be determined by the role in which they were most prominent. In those instances when a candidate is prominent as both a player and as a manager, executive or umpire, the BBWAA Screening Committee shall determine that individual's candidacy as either a player (Players Ballot), or as a manager, executive or umpire (Composite Ballot). Candidates may only appear on one ballot per election. Those designated as players must fulfill the requirements of 6 (A).

(D) Any person designated by the Office of the Commissioner of Major League Baseball as ineligible shall not be an eligible candidate.

I can see segregating players from broadcaters, etc., but segregating MLB stars from Negro League stars would be an awful repetition of the discrimination which kept them out of MLB in the first place.

Procol Harum
07-18-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
You could just as easily argue that, without minorities in MLB, that MLB was like AAA ball also. I mean, the fact is, neither MLB nor the Negro Leagues had all of the top talent ... so what makes you believe there was more top talent among whites than among blacks? If you put, say, Jimmie Foxx up against Satchel Paige's Kansas City Monarchs, would he have hit 50 homers? Point is we don't know, and to assume that white players were better just because they played under the grand auspices of Major League Baseball is quite an assumption indeed.


Obviously, MLB was weakened by the exclusion of minorities back in the day. Nonetheless, as Voodoo points out--pure demographics made that much less likely to be so. And, as we've discussed in other threads, you factor in the intensity with which America embraced baseball during that period, the game overall was at an elevated status given the lack of training, diet, exercise, equipment and overall easier lifestyle we now enjoy--so those guys were not exactly playin' with bums. Finally, the continued domination of pitching in the Bigs by white pitchers since 1947 is indicative that the achievement of hitters in the pre-Jackie Robinson era were probably only slightly inflated over what they would have been otherwise.

As to the arrangement of the HOF, I still would argue that to include Negro League stars would not only be hard to quantify in terms of how one measured performance in the Negro Leagues vs MLB, but it denies the historic reality of the situation at the time. And perhaps that's a good lesson in and of itself to remember that there has been injustice and that real people suffered at the time and there's no real way for us, generations later, to somehow wave a magic wand and pretend it's all better.

maurice
07-18-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
As to the arrangement of the HOF, I still would argue that to include Negro League stars would not only be hard to quantify in terms of how one measured performance in the Negro Leagues vs MLB, but it denies the historic reality of the situation at the time.

Comparing Negro Leaguers to their MLB contemporaries is no more difficult or inherently revisionist than comparing deadball era MLB players to today's MLB players. Many things about the HOF are subjective. You can't cure that by compartmentalizing.

baseballboy
07-18-2003, 05:34 PM
As promised, here are the rules for PLAYERS to be elected into the hall of fame. These rules are not for announcers and those that have wings in the hall of fame. I am not sure where the Negro league stars are at as I have never been there. I dont know if they have their own wing or if they are actually included in the hall of fame. If they are actually included in the hall of fame then Mike North is right about this. You can find the complete list at http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/rules.htm

Here is what makes a player eligible:

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

(A) A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

(B) Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).

(C) Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

(D)In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

(E)Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

hose
07-18-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Nellie Fox is in the Hall of Fame.


I went back and edited my post to show that Nellie wasn't in the Hall of Fame at the time.

My red ass was more because Nellie was left out of the Hall of Fame all those years.