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gosox41
07-17-2003, 11:25 AM
In today's Trib. it was mentioned that the Sox used 87 different lineups in 94 games. How pathetic. But good news for all Manuel haters, the tinkering is PK's fault. Here is Manuel's quote when talking about the possibility of having a set line up:

"A lot will depend on a guy like Konerko. If he comes back swinging well, we can have a set type of thing."

It's good to see JM waking up to the reality of having a set line up (or 2, one for lefties and one for righties.) However, how is PK's not hitting the reason for all the tinkering. Is it the reason Ordonez got a day off in the middle of a 3 game series when the series was sandwiched in between 2 days off? Was it PK's fault Frank sat against Clement in the Cub series? Was it PK's fauly Roberto was given a day off the Sunday before the All Star break.

I do hope JM uses a set line up. But to blame the tinkering on Konerko's inability to hit is ridiculous. All JM needed to do was sit Konerko's sorry butt down and put Daubach in as DH. It hardly explains all the other tinkering. But for whatever twisted logic JM is using, maybe Sox fans will see less tinkering the rest of the season.

Bob

voodoochile
07-17-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
In today's Trib. it was mentioned that the Sox used 87 different lineups in 94 games. How pathetic. But good news for all Manuel haters, the tinkering is PK's fault. Here is Manuel's quote when talking about the possibility of having a set line up:

"A lot will depend on a guy like Konerko. If he comes back swinging well, we can have a set type of thing."

It's good to see JM waking up to the reality of having a set line up (or 2, one for lefties and one for righties.) However, how is PK's not hitting the reason for all the tinkering. Is it the reason Ordonez got a day off in the middle of a 3 game series when the series was sandwiched in between 2 days off? Was it PK's fault Frank sat against Clement in the Cub series? Was it PK's fauly Roberto was given a day off the Sunday before the All Star break.

I do hope JM uses a set line up. But to blame the tinkering on Konerko's inability to hit is ridiculous. All JM needed to do was sit Konerko's sorry butt down and put Daubach in as DH. It hardly explains all the other tinkering. But for whatever twisted logic JM is using, maybe Sox fans will see less tinkering the rest of the season.

Bob

ARRRRRRHGGGGGHHHH!!!!

So if Konerko doesn't come back strong we still have to put up with Willie Harris leading off and Frank not playing 1B?

2 lineups is 1 too many, IMO. L/R matchups shouldn't be abused. Maybe one player in the lineup needs to be platooned. The rest should be left to their own devices.

I give him 2 days and then he will rest someone because they played 2 days in a row after a 3-day break...

34 Inch Stick
07-17-2003, 03:01 PM
The only lefty good enough to change the lineup is Daubach.

Jerry is here until at least the end of the year and probably until the end of the contract.

delben91
07-17-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
But for whatever twisted logic JM is using, maybe Sox fans will see less tinkering the rest of the season.

Bob

I'll believe that when I see it. Oh, look, there goes a flying pig!

Get it going tonight Sox, beat those pesky kitties!!

:gulp:

Gumshoe
07-17-2003, 03:55 PM
The team will not win with Jerry and the BIG Jerry won't move him. I've thought for some time that he would be here the whole year. Williams said early that was the case. Supposedly he has this series and if they don't win he's gone. That is what the CEO of US Cellular said, and he's close to Reinsdorf. Take that for what it's worth. I talked to the man in Bridgeport.

Gumshoe

gosox41
07-17-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
The team will not win with Jerry and the BIG Jerry won't move him. I've thought for some time that he would be here the whole year. Williams said early that was the case. Supposedly he has this series and if they don't win he's gone. That is what the CEO of US Cellular said, and he's close to Reinsdorf. Take that for what it's worth. I talked to the man in Bridgeport.

Gumshoe

As much as I'd hate to see the Sox lose a series again to the woeful Tigers, it would be worth it to see JM fired and hopefully someone competent will come in.

Bob

MikeKreevich
07-17-2003, 05:04 PM
A leopard can't change his spots and a tinkerer won't end his tinkering. The Sox have sent a message that they won't win under Manuel. Continuing with Manuel now is like leaving a relief pitcher in a close game after he's given up back to back home runs.

fquaye149
07-17-2003, 05:32 PM
i didn't cry when my dog got hit by a car. i didn't cry when my true love left me for another man. i didn't cry when i cut up a bunch of onions.

but the white sox are making me cry


manuel will never get it. we always think he might get it, and then he doesn't get it. goshdamn it

jeremyb1
07-17-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Was it PK's fauly Roberto was given a day off the Sunday before the All Star break.

i believe we were facing a lefty on the sunday before the all-star break and alomar is hitting less than .200 against lefties. i don't call that tinkering, i call it common sense.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i believe we were facing a lefty on the sunday before the all-star break and alomar is hitting less than .200 against lefties. i don't call that tinkering, i call it common sense.

If I'm not mistaken, a lefty is pitching tongiht for the Tigers. Valentin is not in the line up, but Roberto is.

So which is it? Was it common sense to not play Roberto against lefties, or should he play. Or is it common sense for JM to manage by the seat of his pants and just do whatever.

That's my problem with him. No consistency in his decisions. Too much tinkering. Why did he sit Frank against Clement at Wrigley for being 0-4 in his career against him then play him the next weekend at the Cell (where Frank took him deep?) Which is it. It can't be done both ways. No wonder so many guys are underacheiving offensively when they have no defined roles on the team.

Bob

JRIG
07-17-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
If I'm not mistaken, a lefty is pitching tongiht for the Tigers. Valentin is not in the line up, but Roberto is.

So which is it? Was it common sense to not play Roberto against lefties, or should he play. Or is it common sense for JM to manage by the seat of his pants and just do whatever.

That's my problem with him. No consistency in his decisions. Too much tinkering. Why did he sit Frank against Clement at Wrigley for being 0-4 in his career against him then play him the next weekend at the Cell (where Frank took him deep?) Which is it. It can't be done both ways. No wonder so many guys are underacheiving offensively when they have no defined roles on the team.

Bob

Same thing with Everett tonight as well. He struggles mightily vs. LHP. If Manuel is consistent, there's no doubt Rowand should be out there.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Same thing with Everett tonight as well. He struggles mightily vs. LHP. If Manuel is consistent, there's no doubt Rowand should be out there.

JM has no logic behind his moves. He should have two lineups, one for righties one for lefties. They need to keep it simple for JM. If Alomar, Valentin, and Everett are so bad against lefties then start Harris, Graffanino, and Rowand.

What's it say for KW's ability to make personnel moves if both Everett and Alomar can't hit lefties. Add that to Valentin's .130 average and Lee's .200 average and what you have is a team that isn't going to score many runs against any lefty.

Bob

RKMeibalane
07-17-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
That's my problem with him. No consistency in his decisions. Too much tinkering. Why did he sit Frank against Clement at Wrigley for being 0-4 in his career against him then play him the next weekend at the Cell (where Frank took him deep?) Which is it. It can't be done both ways. No wonder so many guys are underacheiving offensively when they have no defined roles on the team.

Exactly. Baseball is difficult enough without Jerry Manuel screwing around with the lineup every day. Players need to be able to settle into a daily routine, so they will be better able to perform up to their capabilities.

Baseball, like any other profession that requires skill, is about being able to feel comfortable when performing. This requires that a player understands and is comfortable with his role on a team. However, there are no defined roles with White Sox players. Nobody knows if he'll be playing the next day, or where he will be in the lineup. This has take its toll on the players.

Everyone on this board sees that Manuel's tinkering must stop. The media sees it, too, as do the Sox broadcasters. Why doesn't Manuel see it? Is he really that stupid? Either way, he needs to be fired. The Sox have a chance to win their division, and they can't afford to let Manuel live out his lineup fantasies each game.

JRIG
07-17-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
JM has no logic behind his moves. He should have two lineups, one for righties one for lefties. They need to keep it simple for JM. If Alomar, Valentin, and Everett are so bad against lefties then start Harris, Graffanino, and Rowand.

Bob

Harris is also a left handed batter, so that won't help anything.

RKMeibalane
07-17-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Harris is also a left handed batter, so that won't help anything.

Harris has the ability to reach on infield singles. He should at least be able to leg out an infield hit, something the others can't do. Besides, there's no way he can be any worse against lefties than Valentin.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Harris is also a left handed batter, so that won't help anything.

It does if he has a higher OBP against lefties then Everett.

This brings up another problem with Manuel. I hate the lefty/right crap he pulls in the bullpen. If Marte is pitching well and is strong then there is no reason to take him out against a tough righty. He's the best reliever the Sox have. Same thing with Gordon. He's been effective (though not as effective as Marte) and should be allowed to face lefties if he's pitching well. Don't just take a pitcher like Gordon or Marte out because the guy hits righty or lefty.

Bob