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fledgedrallycap
07-17-2003, 10:35 AM
Since there isn't a whole lot of new thoughts going around - I pose this discussion:

I know the season isn't over yet and I hope the Sox finish strong, make the playoffs and make a push - that way most of these questions will be easy. If not, this will be an interesting winter.

Who do you lock up for next season, Bartolo or Esteban?

We all know the Sox history, so finding a way to keep both will be difficult. Loaiza has been simply brilliant thus far, but is it a fluk. Colon has been somewhat disappointing, but still an intimidating horse, plus with more run support that record would look a lot better.

What do you do at Shortstop?

Jose's contract is technically up (he has an optional year left). I love the guy's effort and leadership, but he just doesn't have the stabilty on either side which is demanded. There are some interesting SS's available next year including Miguel Tahada.

Centerfield.....

It is time to get a bonified Center Fielder. I would prefer a lefty, slasher with speed.

There are more questions including Second, Paulie, Frank (who knows his contract).

For a team that supposedly found itself with all the pieces in place, we could be looking at a mini-rebuild next year depending on which direction the organization wants to go...

voodoochile
07-17-2003, 10:39 AM
Esteban is already signed for next year. If they can sign Bartolo to go with him then they will have a very solid group of 4 pitchers to start next season with.

At SS I expect them to try and sign Valentin to a 3 year $10M contract. His defense has been solid and he can still swing a decent bat.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Alomar return at 2B under a similar type of contract.

Unless JR decides to tear it all down and start from scratch and that wouldn't surprise me either.

whitesoxwilkes
07-17-2003, 11:03 AM
I'm still not sold on Colon. The guy's a horse, yes, but is not the power pitcher that I thought he would be...and he's expensive. I say we stick with Estaban (duh) and the rest of the fellas in the rotation..and use the Colon money to sign a CF.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Since there isn't a whole lot of new thoughts going around - I pose this discussion:

I know the season isn't over yet and I hope the Sox finish strong, make the playoffs and make a push - that way most of these questions will be easy. If not, this will be an interesting winter.

Who do you lock up for next season, Bartolo or Esteban?

We all know the Sox history, so finding a way to keep both will be difficult. Loaiza has been simply brilliant thus far, but is it a fluk. Colon has been somewhat disappointing, but still an intimidating horse, plus with more run support that record would look a lot better.

What do you do at Shortstop?

Jose's contract is technically up (he has an optional year left). I love the guy's effort and leadership, but he just doesn't have the stabilty on either side which is demanded. There are some interesting SS's available next year including Miguel Tahada.

Centerfield.....

It is time to get a bonified Center Fielder. I would prefer a lefty, slasher with speed.

There are more questions including Second, Paulie, Frank (who knows his contract).

For a team that supposedly found itself with all the pieces in place, we could be looking at a mini-rebuild next year depending on which direction the organization wants to go...

The first thing I'd do this offseason (assuming it isn't done earlier) is fire KW and JM.

As for the other issues, I want to see how the team plays the second half and how attendence is. Rightly or wrongly, if the team doesn't draw well payroll goes down. I personally think the Sox maxed out their payroll based on projected attendence. I think 1.9 mill-2 mill is breakeven

Relaistically, I don't think Bart will be back. He's going to want a 4-5 year contract for about $10 mill per. If the Sox go deep in the playoffs this season (or even get there) I may want to resign him, but other then that I'd take the 2 draft picks.

Unfortunately the Sox have some bad contracts on their books that they can't move. Dumping Koch and Konerko's salary will free up a lot of payroll and allow the Sox to fill mroe holes.

Bob

soxrme
07-17-2003, 12:47 PM
I would keep Colon, get rid of Jose or sign him for one year only at a reduced salary. I would also like to keep Alomar here. I would like to see us stronger up the middle with ss and catcher being the biggest trouble spots right now. Our biggest problem however is manager and I would be happy with Fisk or Backman who are both former players with no nonsense attitudes. I would like to see an overhauling of our scouting and try to bring Mike Rizzo here (he is currently with AZ). He is from here and his dad signed Frank for the Sox. I would fire all our advance scouts (if we have any) because of major incompetence. If I had a choice between Everitt and Daubauch I keep Everitt. Crede is to be told he will play winter ball and will like it.
Thats all I have for now.

Lip Man 1
07-17-2003, 01:01 PM
Don't forget the Sox also have some arbitration eligible players like Carlos Lee (and Mark Buehrle??) what they get will help determine what else does or does not happen.

I think if the Sox don't win the division that ownership is going to tear it down and rebuild yet again for the 4th time since the 1994 labor dispute. Which according to one report that I read in The Sporting News could mean cutting the payroll (which currently stands at 53 million) as much as 20 million dollars!

If the Sox do that you are looking at a 100 loss team next season.

Lip

hold2dibber
07-17-2003, 01:30 PM
The Sox hold a $4 million (I believe) option on Loaiza for next year. Assuming he keeps it up in the 2nd half, I would expect them to exercise that option.

I would be surprised to see Jose back, and, frankly, I think that's a good thing. As much as I've loved having him on the team, the last thing this line-up needs is another low OBP guy whose only offensive skill is the long ball. The Sox need a SS who can field the position and get on base. Not sure who's out there to fit that description, but that should be a priority.

I would re-sign Alomar if he's available for the right price. Otherwise, 2B will be a problem.

The Sox need an upgrade in CF, and again I'd focus on a good defender with solid OBP skills. Juan Pierre? Don't know if he'll be available, but someone of that ilk. Reed seems like a possibility, I suppose, but my guess is he'll be MLB ready in '05, not '04.

Colon is the big question. I would love to have him, but not at $10 million per year, not in this market. For that same $10 million, the Sox most likely could find a solid no. 3 starter and either a SS or a CF.

If Crede doesn't show signs of life this off season, they will have to address 3B too.

A lot of "ifs" going into the 2nd half. The next 3 - 4 years will likely be determined by how well the team plays in the 2nd half and by the attendance.

SoxxoS
07-17-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
At SS I expect them to try and sign Valentin to a 3 year $10M contract. His defense has been solid and he can still swing a decent bat.

No way, voodoo. I would bet KW is going to explore other avenues for the SS position. The lack of hitting from the right side, combined with the fielding miscues, will have Valentin looking for another job.

SoxxoS
07-17-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Don't forget the Sox also have some arbitration eligible players like Carlos Lee (and Mark Buehrle??) what they get will help determine what else does or does not happen.

I think if the Sox don't win the division that ownership is going to tear it down and rebuild yet again for the 4th time since the 1994 labor dispute. Which according to one report that I read in The Sporting News could mean cutting the payroll (which currently stands at 53 million) as much as 20 million dollars!

If the Sox do that you are looking at a 100 loss team next season.

Lip

They aren't going to do that, Lip. No chance.

delben91
07-17-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


I think if the Sox don't win the division that ownership is going to tear it down and rebuild yet again for the 4th time since the 1994 labor dispute. Which according to one report that I read in The Sporting News could mean cutting the payroll (which currently stands at 53 million) as much as 20 million dollars!

If the Sox do that you are looking at a 100 loss team next season.

Lip

I don't know Lip. 20 million sounds like the high end of how much they'd cut. But for a moment, let's assume it is 20 million, that doesn't directly translate to the magical 100 loss number. Well, it might, but it depends on where they cut the 20 million.

Assume for a second that this year's squad doesn't lose 100 games. They may be uninspired, but I think that's a safe bet. Why? Great starting pitching, that's why. So, if they cut 20 million from someplace other than the rotation (i.e. Lee, Valentin, R. Alomar, Everett, Thomas [though I want Frank around personally]), but somehow, doubtful though it may be, keep Colon...then the offense couldn't possible produce less than this year, and the rotation would likely win enough games on their own to keep the losses under 100.

Granted, that team would still be bad, and likely horrible to watch, but would keep them away from that magic 100 loss season. At least, that's my theory.

In any case, I hope the rebuilding doesn't happen. Get it started tonight guys, take out the kitties!!

jeremyb1
07-17-2003, 06:08 PM
obviously, first of all you pick up loaiza's option. even if we decide to rebuild you pick up the option and then deal him.

next, i think i would part with carlos. i still think he has the potential to be a dominant hitter but considering that his mental approach to the game has proven itself to be lacking yet again, he's starting to get to the age where he should be reaching his potential, and he will make a significant amount of money next season i deal him in a salary dump or if that doesn't work i non-tender him. assuming he doesn't see a huge dropoff in production i think jeremy reed can play left next season.

assuming ownership forces kw to cut payroll or we need to free up payroll to try to resign colon, i stick with rowand in centerfield. i'm of the belief that he won't be an embarassment with the bat as he has made major strides as of late and he can play solid defense in centerfield. he's not an incredibly productive player but there aren't many strong centerfielders in the majors these days.

paully and frank aren't going anywhere with the size of their deals so they will remain at first and dh. olivo has shown enough to stay at catcher considering the weakness of the position throughout the majors. crede has been an absolute embarassment at third with the bat but he was more selective the last few games before the break and it seemed to pay off. he's cheap and he's still young so i doubt he'll be replaced at third.

this leaves second base and shortstop. i don't really feel we have anyone in the organization that can step in and play those two positions. harris and miles are not major league starters in my opinion. tim hummel is a longshot but might be the best bet. i can't see jose being resigned considering his declining production and the money he'll probably want. that said i can't see us spending a great deal of money on a free agent such as the other matsui, castillo, or anyone else who would be available. my guess is we see miles or harris at second which frankly terrifies me.

as far as the rotation goes, buehrle, loaiza, and garland should all be back. signing colon should obviously be made a priority. theoretically his price will come down if his era stays up around 4 this season. there will be a lot of cheap free agents or someone like cotts or rauch available as options for the fifth starter.

i'd go with wright in the pen who figures to return along with marte, koch, and wunsch, and sanders. other options for the pen are limited due to munoz' and majewski's struggles and almonte and ring being dealt so look for free agents to fill out the staff.

all these moves assume we're still attempting to compete next season. if we rebuild, you can expect everett, alomar, colon, valentin and the other free agents won't be resigned. maggs and possibily frank are good candidates to be traded. even paully could go if we pay part of his contract although that seems highly unlikely with reinsdorf as the owner. loaiza would also be good trade bait.

Daver
07-17-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


At SS I expect them to try and sign Valentin to a 3 year $10M contract. His defense has been solid and he can still swing a decent bat.



The Sox have an option on Valentin for next season.

soxtalker
07-17-2003, 08:50 PM
Does Colon have to resign with us? If not, from his perspective, staying here might not be such a great option.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Does Colon have to resign with us? If not, from his perspective, staying here might not be such a great option.

If I were Colon, I'd be on the first plane to NY. Why play of idiots like JR, KW, and JM when you can make a lot more money for a team that consistently puts out a winner.

Bob

RKMeibalane
07-17-2003, 10:37 PM
:hurt

(singing) "I love LA..."

Joel Perez
07-17-2003, 11:10 PM
1) Fire Jerry Manuel...let's see what Wally Backman can do.

2) Trade Carlos Lee and a mid-level pitching prospect for a top-of-the-line pitcher. Or, go the FA route. Either have Aaron Rowand or Joe Borchard go in LF.

3) Have Carl Everett go bye-bye, and get a draft pick out of him due to compensation. So far, he has done little, and it'll cost the Sox dearly...Texas robbed us clean in this trade. Big dollars + over 30 ballplayer = Diminshed returns.

4) Re-sign Roberto Alomar...we have seen how difficult it is to replace a mid-level 2b in Ray Durham...keep with what you have. You can get LF/RFs, but you cannot replace good D up the middle (see CF, C and SS as well).

5) Trade or release Billy Koch for a bag of 16-inch soft balls...or a Class A prospect.

6) Pick up Esteban Loaiza's option...add another year to the contract as well.

7) See what you can get for Paul Konerko for a Left-Handed hitter in the lineup.

voodoochile
07-17-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
3) Have Carl Everett go bye-bye, and get a draft pick out of him due to compensation. So far, he has done little, and it'll cost the Sox dearly...Texas robbed us clean in this trade. Big dollars + over 30 ballplayer = Diminshed returns.

6) Pick up Esteban Loaiza's option...add another year to the contract as well.


Texas is paying Carl's salary, so how do you figure it is costing the Sox anything?

I doubt Esteban will sign a one year extension. The Sox would have to offer him at least 3, IMO to get him to stay with the team beyond next year.

Joel Perez
07-17-2003, 11:16 PM
Two things:

1) Texas is about to get three of the Sox's mid to top prospects, IMO. Carl has done nothing, so far, to dictate that the Sox has come out ahead in this trade. Plus, the guy can no longer play CF, which had been his position throughout his MLB career until now.

2) I was talking, money wise, that MOST big-salaried players basically "coast" until the last year of their fat contract, when they finally go all out to sell themselves to other sucker-baseball teams...I realize that the Rangers still pay C-Ev's salary.

voodoochile
07-17-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Two things:

1) Texas is about to get three of the Sox's mid to top prospects, IMO. Carl has done nothing, so far, to dictate that the Sox has come out ahead in this trade. Plus, the guy can no longer play CF, which had been his position throughout his MLB career until now.

2) I was talking, money wise, that MOST big-salaried players basically "coast" until the last year of their fat contract, when they finally go all out to sell themselves to other sucker-baseball teams...I realize that the Rangers still pay C-Ev's salary.

So why would Everett be coasting to end the season when he is in the middle of a salary drive? Your logic doesn't make sense.

The Sox gave up mid-level prospects at best. No big names. No major talents and nothing final yet. When the Rangers actually finalize the 3 PTBNL, then you may have an argument, but right now, it looks like the Sox haven't offered much of anything.

Daver
07-17-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
Two things:

1) Texas is about to get three of the Sox's mid to top prospects, IMO. Carl has done nothing, so far, to dictate that the Sox has come out ahead in this trade. Plus, the guy can no longer play CF, which had been his position throughout his MLB career until now.

2) I was talking, money wise, that MOST big-salaried players basically "coast" until the last year of their fat contract, when they finally go all out to sell themselves to other sucker-baseball teams...I realize that the Rangers still pay C-Ev's salary.

One thing,go take a look at the list of eight prospects that the Rangers have to choose from and tell me where you see a "mid to top prospect" in the bunch.

MarkEdward
07-17-2003, 11:45 PM
It's a little weird to talk about the off-season this early, but since I like to talk Sox baseball, I'll go ahead anyway:

Originally posted by jeremyb1
[B]obviously, first of all you pick up loaiza's option. even if we decide to rebuild you pick up the option and then deal him.

Totally agree.

next, i think i would part with carlos.

It depends. If the Sox let Everett walk after this year and trade Lee, the Sox have three options in left: Daubach, Rowand, or Borchard. Are any of these players significantly better than Lee?

assuming ownership forces kw to cut payroll or we need to free up payroll to try to resign colon, i stick with rowand in centerfield.

That's what the Sox may be forced to do. He's the only option in-house (aside from a struggling Borchard), and there's not much available on the market. I don't really want to re-sign Everett.

paully and frank aren't going anywhere with the size of their deals so they will remain at first and dh. olivo has shown enough to stay at catcher considering the weakness of the position throughout the majors. crede has been an absolute embarassment at third with the bat but he was more selective the last few games before the break and it seemed to pay off. he's cheap and he's still young so i doubt he'll be replaced at third.

Agree on Konerko and Thomas. I hope Mike Rivera makes the team next year to back up Olivo. Crede should stay at third, and most likely be better than this year.

this leaves second base and shortstop.

If we had just kept Jimenez, this situation might not seem so terrible. If Alomar leaves, I'd give second base over to Graffanino. Jose Valentin may need to be re-signed out of necessity. I'd like to see Tim Hummel back up.

as far as the rotation goes, buehrle, loaiza, and garland should all be back. signing colon should obviously be made a priority. theoretically his price will come down if his era stays up around 4 this season. there will be a lot of cheap free agents or someone like cotts or rauch available as options for the fifth starter.

I'm still undecided about Colon. His K/9 is up and his BB/9 is down, so that's good. I want to see what he could with the rest of this season to see if he's worth keeping. As for the fifth spot, I'd put Rauch there, but I don't think he'll be very successful.

i'd go with wright in the pen who figures to return along with marte, koch, and wunsch, and sanders. other options for the pen are limited due to munoz' and majewski's struggles and almonte and ring being dealt so look for free agents to fill out the staff.

Here's my pen: Koch, Marte, Wunsch, Gordon, and Wright.

all these moves assume we're still attempting to compete next season. if we rebuild, you can expect everett, alomar, colon, valentin and the other free agents won't be resigned. maggs and possibily frank are good candidates to be traded. even paully could go if we pay part of his contract although that seems highly unlikely with reinsdorf as the owner. loaiza would also be good trade bait.

Even if we do start re-building, that doesn't mean we have to dump all of our stars. The Pirates are in constant re-building, and they keep Brian Giles on the roster. Ordonez and Thomas aren't blocking the path of prospects, so keeping them wouldn't be a hindrance to our re-building program.

Joel Perez
07-18-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
So why would Everett be coasting to end the season when he is in the middle of a salary drive? Your logic doesn't make sense.

The Sox gave up mid-level prospects at best. No big names. No major talents and nothing final yet. When the Rangers actually finalize the 3 PTBNL, then you may have an argument, but right now, it looks like the Sox haven't offered much of anything.

Okay, I claim insanity on that one...my point is moot.


One thing,go take a look at the list of eight prospects that the Rangers have to choose from and tell me where you see a "mid to top prospect" in the bunch. (From Daver)

IMO only on this one...I still think that Anthony Webster, Corwin Malone and Josh Rupe will make decent/good major leaguers one day. Webster, with his athleticism, can be a five tool player. Malone, if he ever gets his mechanics down, can be a lefty specialist or at least a #4 or #5 starter from some team. Rupe has potential. Sorry about that...maybe I should've put the "IMO" disclaimer before I stated it.

Jerko
07-18-2003, 10:41 AM
I agree with firing Manuel but I don't think that should be an off-season priority. It should be an in-season priority.