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View Full Version : Anyone Else Miss Foulke?


ssang
07-16-2003, 08:12 AM
Do you think it's safe to say that Billy Beane is making KW look absolutley foolsih on the Koch/Foulke deal? Yeah, yeah Neal Cotts....whatever. The way I figured it is that the Sox would have AT LEAST 6 more victories with Foulke ion the mound instead of Koch this season. Think about how many games Koch has blown or given up the lead in a tie game. A TON! And we're only at the all-star break!!! Good thing the Sox gave up on Foulke after 1/2 of a bad season...the first half!!! He was awesome after the break last year. Good trade? Yeah, for Oakland.

Hangar18
07-16-2003, 08:17 AM
I miss him. was nice to see him get the Save like that.

xil357
07-16-2003, 08:23 AM
I'd rather have Keith's unmarried sister, Miss Foulke, as the Sox closer than Koch right now.

Mammoo
07-16-2003, 08:46 AM
I applauded the trade at the time, so I'm not going to back stab KW now. The best thing Williams can do now is unload the useless Koch, hope Neil Cotts develops and move on.

You win some, you lose some. :gulp:

Irishsox1
07-16-2003, 09:29 AM
I don't miss Foulke cherping about wanting to be a starter.
I miss Billy Koch's 98 mph fastball.

hold2dibber
07-16-2003, 10:00 AM
I did not like the trade at the time because (1) I felt Foulke was better than Koch; and (2) I was concerned about Koch's workload last year. If Koch still had his 99 mph heat, he'd be okay, but without it, he's not even as good as Bobby Howry was in his prime. He is, at BEST, an average middle reliever. And we're going to be devoting WAY too much of our payroll to this guy through next year. If we're really, really, lucky, that heat will come back. Otherwise, we're stuck with him.

On a related subject, I wonder where Foulke will end up next year. I certainly don't expect the A's to retain him. My guess is Boston, where Epstein, like Beane, is a big fan of the statistical measures that show how good Foulke is and who, unlike Beane, may have the money to pay Foulke. The Mets are also a possibility.

daveb816
07-16-2003, 10:22 AM
I miss him, but six games is an exaggeration.

There's the KC game on 4/15, the Tampa one on 7/4, and one or both of the extra-inning losses (vs. Bos on 6/19, at Minn. on 6/25). You're assuming Keith would have been absolutely flawless and you can't assume that. That's why I'm not including the 4/3 game in K.C. because he came into a bags loaded situation.

CHISOXFAN13
07-16-2003, 10:23 AM
Do we have to read this thread every week? I mean, come on. Did you guys really feel this much of a bond with this guy when he was blowing saves against the Yankees last season??? I know I didn't.

HawkDJ
07-16-2003, 10:31 AM
I have to admit when the trade was made I was happy and I didn't think I would miss Foulke. He blew one too many big games for me. However, now I think it is safe to say everybody ehre misses him.

voodoochile
07-16-2003, 11:07 AM
At the time, I felt Foulke got a raw deal from Sox management. I wanted to see him closing late last season after working his way back into form.

I wasn't disappointed in the trade and was one of Koch's most ardent supporters because I honestly believed he could do the job. The way he has pitched has been a shock and even his biggest detractors have to admit they didn't expect him to be THIS bad. I didn't believe Foulke has the proper makeup to be a closer and I was obviously wrong on that point.

However, Foulke has blown 4 saves this year for Oakland, so odds are he would have done the same here in Chicago and people would be calling for his head and pointing to those games as games the Sox desperately needed. So, let's not make this into something it isn't. Foulke would be getting ripped if her were here in Chicago...

ssang
07-16-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
Do we have to read this thread every week? I mean, come on. Did you guys really feel this much of a bond with this guy when he was blowing saves against the Yankees last season??? I know I didn't.

I was a little frustrated with Foulke last season, no doubt. But I NEVER liked this deal. First off, KW dealing with Billy Beane should be an automatic red flag for Kenny! That is a mismatch if I ever saw one. So the fact alone that it was a Kenny trade with Billy Beane should've been a strong indicator that we were gonna be losers in this trade. And secondly, Koch causes nightmares.....for his teammates and fans! That guy made all his saves interesting. I knew the A's offense bailed him out plenty last year, hence the 11 wins for a friggin' closer! Thirdly, he had a huge workload last season. And finally, Foulke was just flat out better. So this is why this trade sucked. Combine this one with the Ritchie trade (A.K.A. the worst trade in baseball history) and that should prove that Kenny is not a good GM. I do, however, give him credit for having the balls to "go for it" with these recent deals. It shows that he cares and wants to win. But does that make him a good GM??? Absolutley not! So KW is someone who will give it his all for this organization but just isn't good at being a GM. Too bad.

Hangar18
07-16-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
Do we have to read this thread every week? I mean, come on. Did you guys really feel this much of a bond with this guy when he was blowing saves against the Yankees last season??? I know I didn't.

Yeah, but that YANKEE game I blame on Manuel. He OBVIOUSLY didnt have it when he brought him on in the 8th innning, barely
escaping out of that jam. SO JM brings him on in the 9th
and he was TORCHED

MarkEdward
07-16-2003, 11:21 AM
Very much so. It really sucks when you lose the best reliever in baseball.

hold2dibber
07-16-2003, 11:49 AM
Would you agree, however, that it wouldn't suck nearly as much if Koch still had his 99 mph heater and was pitching at the same level at which he pitched last year? If Koch had the same numbers (in terms of ERA, WHIP and save %) as last year, I wouldn't be bumming - Foulke is still better, but we'd have Cotts and we'd have Koch for next year (whereas Foulke will be a FA after this year). I guess my point is that while I didn't like the trade at the time, it has turned out much worse than even I expected, because Koch has lost his velocity. Of course, this may have been somewhat predictable in light of his heavy workload last year; in essence, KW took a gamble that Koch would not break down despite his heavy workload. It appears that he lost that bet (reminscent of the gamble he took on Ritchie and the gamble he took when he dealt Durham under the belief that draft pick compensation would be done away with).

FarmerAndy
07-16-2003, 01:40 PM
I wouldn't say I miss Foulke. I'm just extremely dissapointed with Koch. At the time of the trade I thought it was great. Of course I'd rather have Foulke's performance this year. No one could've expected that Koch was going to lose 10 MPH velocity. I just don't know what is wrong with the guy.

I was never a huge Foulke fan. He ran his mouth too much. He put up good overall numbers, but he'd always blow the big games. But yeah, I don't think anybody could argue that they wouldn't rather have him right now.

LauraJ14
07-16-2003, 02:38 PM
"Very much so. It really sucks when you lose the best reliever in baseball"


Since when did we have John Smoltz????

doublem23
07-16-2003, 04:35 PM
Foulke has been the best reliever in baseball over the last 3 years... Hands down.

MarkEdward
07-16-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
"Very much so. It really sucks when you lose the best reliever in baseball"


Since when did we have John Smoltz????

Here we go again:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22108

Read post seven.

Anyway, I'll compare Smoltz and Foulke (considering that Smoltz has only been a reliever for 2.5 years). By ARP:

2001
Smoltz: 13.0
Foulke: 20.0
2002
Smoltz: 17.8
Foulke: 17.5
2003
Smoltz: 19.2
Foulke: 9.7

Pretty even. However, considering that A) Foulke is younger, B) Foulke is healthier, C) Foulke is cheaper, and D) Foulke has been a dominant reliever for a longer time period, I'd give the advantage to Keith.

gosox41
07-16-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
Do we have to read this thread every week? I mean, come on. Did you guys really feel this much of a bond with this guy when he was blowing saves against the Yankees last season??? I know I didn't.

The thing is the trade was such a blatantly bad trade. Of course we're going to relive it. Maybe it'll get KW fired if Sox fans keep pointing out his many faults. It has cost the Sox victories.

Bob

gosox41
07-16-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
I wouldn't say I miss Foulke. I'm just extremely dissapointed with Koch. At the time of the trade I thought it was great. Of course I'd rather have Foulke's performance this year. No one could've expected that Koch was going to lose 10 MPH velocity. I just don't know what is wrong with the guy.

I was never a huge Foulke fan. He ran his mouth too much. He put up good overall numbers, but he'd always blow the big games. But yeah, I don't think anybody could argue that they wouldn't rather have him right now.

You should go back to the posts when the trade was made. Me and a few others were concerned about his workload last season and it's long term effect. I compared him to Bobby Thigpen after the 1990 season. Did I say he'd lose 10MPH? No. But I did say that history has taught us (at least most of us except KW) that power pitchign relievers tend to burn out quickly after carrying large work loads. Whether he loses 8MPH or 12MPH, Koch is still ineffective and lousy.

Bob

Chisox_cali
07-16-2003, 05:09 PM
I do, but I don't miss this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=142) I will NEVER forget that.

chisoxt
07-16-2003, 08:38 PM
I didn't rip Kenny at the time, either. Actually, the trade looked OK because even though I felt that Keith was a better closer, Koch was still decent and had two years to go on his contract. I think that someone from Oakland knew something about Koch that the Sox didn't know.

gosox41
07-16-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt
I didn't rip Kenny at the time, either. Actually, the trade looked OK because even though I felt that Keith was a better closer, Koch was still decent and had two years to go on his contract. I think that someone from Oakland knew something about Koch that the Sox didn't know.

The numbers alone told me the trade was stupid. Look at the career WHIP's, K/BB ratio and K/IP. Saves is an overrated stat that should be overanalyzed.

Bob

fuzzy_patters
07-17-2003, 12:11 AM
The wierd part about the Koch situation is that he was great in spring training. I remember listening to his first spring appearance, when he struck out the side, and Rooney and Farmer said he hit 100 on the radar gun. What happened? Was it the lighter air in Arizona compared to Chicago? Is he injured?

gosox41
07-17-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
The wierd part about the Koch situation is that he was great in spring training. I remember listening to his first spring appearance, when he struck out the side, and Rooney and Farmer said he hit 100 on the radar gun. What happened? Was it the lighter air in Arizona compared to Chicago? Is he injured?


Maybe he's got a bad hip.

Bob