PDA

View Full Version : *Official* 74th All-Star Game Thread


voodoochile
07-15-2003, 07:02 PM
Use this thread for all game related comments. All others will be deleted. The chat room is open.

Go Esteban!
Go Carl!
Go Magglio!

Unregistered
07-15-2003, 07:03 PM
Figured we need one, right? Especially with our boy Stevie starting for the AL...

Unregistered
07-15-2003, 07:08 PM
Sorry Voodoo, didn't see yours :D:

BTW, How much can MLB sell out? (or probably FOX, I guess) Opening the All-Star game with what is essentially a 5 minute commercial for "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"? Sad.

Unregistered
07-15-2003, 07:12 PM
Heh, funny to see Wood and Prior get a rather loud round of boos...

JJAustin69
07-15-2003, 07:14 PM
Manuel booed loudly upon introduction.

JJAustin69
07-15-2003, 07:18 PM
Baker booed to but obviously for different reasons ha ha. Can't help but think that this is the last all-star game he will be coaching.

Lip Man 1
07-15-2003, 07:31 PM
Actually my take on the introductions was a little different.

I agree that Baker and Wood got roasted, however I thought Prior's reception was mixed. Obviously he hasn't pissed off Sox fans like the other two.

Barry Bonds got roasted

As far as Manuel, I was EXTREMELY disappointed that he wasn't ripped apart. I thought the booing was mixed at best. I'm taping the game and will go back and listen to it again later.

Mags and Loazia got loud raucous receptions. I thought Everett's was luke warm.

I also was disappointed in Aparicio's reception. He should have gotten a loud standing ovation, instead kind of "eh." You'd think even younger fans would know who the hell he is.

I also enjoyed the "reception" the Royals and Twins players got. I think McDougal was taken aback by it.

Lip

koch44
07-15-2003, 07:41 PM
It's shocking to see Manuel standing at the dugout fence watching the game, instead of sitting and napping.

trimbo
07-15-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

I agree that Baker and Wood got roasted, however I thought Prior's reception was mixed. Obviously he hasn't pissed off Sox fans like the other two.


IMO Prior hasn't done anything to deserve getting booed. He's all of 22 years old and hyped by the media, not by himself. He's a low-key guy that seems to work his ass off. Although the Wood/Prior SI article is filled with the hype we've heard for years, the most interesting thing I read was Prior's workout ethic. And he can actually hit the ball too.

Oh, and the only time he pitched against the sox he gave up 5H, 4BB, 4 ER in 5 innings :)

RKMeibalane
07-15-2003, 07:53 PM
I was surprised that Manuel wasn't booed worse by the fans. I was happy to see that Gardenhire, Guardado, MacDougal, and Sweeney were all booed. Baker got hammered. That was great.

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 07:59 PM
Well done, Esteban. Hope they get some runs and make you the winner. Clemens due in next inning...

The announcers definitely described Manuel's reception as mixed.

RKMeibalane
07-15-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The announcers definitely described Manuel's reception as mixed.

I can't understand why anyone would cheer that man after all the crap that's gone on the past three seasons.

Jerry Manuel with a lineup card is the equivalent of a six-year-old who's gotten ahold of his father's gun. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

fquaye149
07-15-2003, 08:15 PM
as much as i hate him, it was painful to see manuel booed in front of a national audience.

it's even more painful to see the sox in 2nd though

Bisco Stu
07-15-2003, 08:21 PM
E-Lo looked good, maybe a little tight, but he got a K so I'm happy.

Now all we need is Mags to hit a granny.

Carl? Eh, I wish it were Frank. Such an insult that he's not here, our greatest player ever.

RKMeibalane
07-15-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
E-Lo looked good, maybe a little tight, but he got a K so I'm happy.

Now all we need is Mags to hit a granny.

Carl? Eh, I wish it were Frank. Such an insult that he's not here, our greatest player ever.

Don't worry. Frank will make the National League All Star team next season, when he is wearing a Dodgers uniform.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 08:32 PM
1-0 A.L on top. Clemens is in line for the victory.

Loaiza pitched very well. Schmidt, too. They each gave up a hit but both batters were jammed.

Also, Bonds first AB: He practically hit it off the handle and still smoked it 300 feet! That is just sick!

It's also looked like McClellan has been squeezing the plate a bit, but the hitters are swinging and missing a lot. The players all look more relaxed now.

Anyway, go American League All-Stars!

And, Scioscia; Give Maggs an at-bat!!!

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 08:36 PM
Moyer gets help from his fellow Mariner!

What a really nice play by Ich-a-ro, as Joe Buck calls him.

Again, Bonds gets jammed and hits it nearly 400 feet this time. Amazing...

RKMeibalane
07-15-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
Also, Bonds first AB: He practically hit it off the handle and still smoked it 300 feet! That is just sick!

That's what steroids will do for you, among other things.

WhiteSoxWinner
07-15-2003, 08:51 PM
OK, why is Hasegawa on the AS team again?

FarWestChicago
07-15-2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
OK, why is Hasegawa on the AS team again? He should have been pitching in the Home Run Derby. It would have been better. :smile:

WhiteSoxWinner
07-15-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
OK, why is Hasegawa on the AS team again?

Same question only substitute Everyday Eddie. Everyday, what, he gives up a lead?

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 09:04 PM
Has anyone bothered to tell Shig and Eddie that "This time it counts"?

WhiteSoxWinner
07-15-2003, 09:05 PM
Is there any way we can pin this on Manual, too?

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Same question only substitute Everyday Eddie. Everyday, what, he gives up a lead?

Just another classic example of why no matter how good a relief pitcher is, they are never as good as the starters.

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Is there any way we can pin this on Manual, too?

Well, there were a bunch of L/R switches right there...

FarWestChicago
07-15-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Has anyone bothered to tell Shig and Eddie that "This time it counts"? Well, the NL was going to have home field if it didn't count. I guess Shiggy and Eddie liked the old way. :D:

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well, the NL was going to have home field if it didn't count. I guess Shiggy and Eddie liked the old way. :D:

Either that or they're trying to throw the game because they figure they won't be in the World Series...

Another "master stroke" by bud "the tool"...

WhiteSoxWinner
07-15-2003, 09:16 PM
I love that idea, Tim McCarver. In order to make the World Series mean more, the league of the winner of the Series should get the All-Star game. That would raise the ratings of the WS because then people will tune in to find out who gets the next AS game. Or maybe not. Makes as much sense as the system we have, I guess.

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 09:43 PM
What did you guys think of the decision to award home to the runner on first on the fan interference play?

I know it is a judgement call, but it happens so rarely. To see it called under these circumstances was interesting to say the least...

Fridaythe13thJason
07-15-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What did you guys think of the decision to award home to the runner on first on the fan interference play?

I know it is a judgement call, but it happens so rarely. To see it called under these circumstances was interesting to say the least...

I think it was a bad call. When its obvious, do it. When its that close, you can't just give a guy a run.

Also, I just wanted to take another chance to note how much I hate this song. Why do people stand and take off their hats? I didn't at one game and some people around me got on me about it.

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
I think it was a bad call. When its obvious, do it. When its that close, you can't just give a guy a run.


Yeah, I thought it was weird because the runner hadn't even reached 3B yet...

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


That's what steroids will do for you, among other things.

Well, it's all okay since he is the personification of the Negro Leagues, after all.

Originally posted by SoCalUIC


I think it was a bad call. When its obvious, do it. When its that close, you can't just give a guy a run.

Also, I just wanted to take another chance to note how much I hate this song. Why do people stand and take off their hats? I didn't at one game and some people around me got on me about it.

:tool
"Guess who had a hand in that?"

And, I thought Amy Grant performed the song very well. Her own interpretation coupled with the interesting instrumental accompaniment made it a very nice performance.

Magglio is in! Go, Maggs!!!

Fridaythe13thJason
07-15-2003, 09:51 PM
This is setting up perfectly for Maggs to be a hero in the 9th.

And gosh, this sure is a fun atmosphere on there...sure would be fun to see meaningful playoff games at that stadium eh?

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 09:52 PM
Magglio with a foul popout to Sexson.

Wagner is dealing.

Giambi takes that and calls gin rummy.

Why was "Na na na, Hey Hey" played?

Fridaythe13thJason
07-15-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
Magglio with a foul popout to Sexson.

Wagner is dealing.

Giambi takes that and calls gin rummy.

Why was "Na na na, Hey Hey" played?

Home team home run, like it always is.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
This is setting up perfectly for Maggs to be a hero in the 9th.

And gosh, this sure is a fun atmosphere on there...sure would be fun to see meaningful playoff games at that stadium eh?

A Maggs walk-off shot would work.

I'm sure it's exciting at the Cell, but I just don't feel the same exhilaration sitting here in my chair at home.

I mean, I know you're not supposed to and "This Time It Counts!" but I just don't have that visceral feeling that puts me on the edge of my seat and it's not just the fact the game had the NL up a few runs and then the game slowed down. I don't know about the rest of you, but it's just like the All-Star Game is lacking still. Just my opinion, of course.

Daver
07-15-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Home team home run, like it always is.

Nancy Faust has really shined all night long,this has to be her finest hour.

doublem23
07-15-2003, 10:00 PM
The All-Star Game is pretty boring. Sorry, no matter how much it counts it is still just an exhibition game.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Home team home run, like it always is.

I guess... It may have been a home team guy in pin stripes who hit a home run, but danged if it just didn't feel right.

:smile:

Fridaythe13thJason
07-15-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
I guess... It may have been a home team guy in pin stripes who hit a home run, but danged if it just didn't feel right.

:smile:

Well, you have to have a home team. Doesn't matter who is on it.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-15-2003, 10:10 PM
Well, that was fun...but its ruining my Magglio Pipe Dream. Garrett Anderson may have the MVP wrapped up though if the AL wins.

Glad we'll have Home Field in the World Series if we keep this up.

doublem23
07-15-2003, 10:13 PM
Foulke to close it...

I used to think irony was funny.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Well, that was fun...but its ruining my Magglio Pipe Dream. Garrett Anderson may have the MVP wrapped up though if the AL wins.

Glad we'll have Home Field in the World Series if we keep this up.

Well, it certainly made it more exciting. Not to mention, Blalock hit it off of one of the best closers in baseball.

Hey, Foulke closing! Irony at its best.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-15-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Foulke to close it...

I used to think irony was funny.

Watch him blow it...that would be funny.

ssang
07-15-2003, 10:16 PM
He'll close this out no problem. How bad do we feel that we traded Foulke for Billy Koch!!!!!!! :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

doublem23
07-15-2003, 10:17 PM
Anyone know where I can get a tape of this game? My piece of **** American-made TV/VCR combo spit out my tape sometime while I was out shootin' hoops...

I assume I could just buck up the $20 to get one from MLB. Any help?

Nick@Nite
07-15-2003, 10:17 PM
47,609 in attendance... largest ever at the Cell.

34rancher
07-15-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Anyone know where I can get a tape of this game? My piece of **** American-made TV/VCR combo spit out my tape sometime while I was out shootin' hoops...

I assume I could just buck up the $20 to get one from MLB. Any help?
E-mail me, I can hook you up. 34rancher@comcast.net

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
A Maggs walk-off shot would work.

I'm sure it's exciting at the Cell, but I just don't feel the same exhilaration sitting here in my chair at home.

I mean, I know you're not supposed to and "This Time It Counts!" but I just don't have that visceral feeling that puts me on the edge of my seat and it's not just the fact the game had the NL up a few runs and then the game slowed down. I don't know about the rest of you, but it's just like the All-Star Game is lacking still. Just my opinion, of course.

No, it was more like you typed it, this time it counts. It was a fun game to watch, but even the players didn't seem to be taking it all that seriously. Still, one of the better ASG's I can remember. Nice comeback and lots of homeruns.

I thought it was a great managerial decision by Soscia (sp?) to put Hernandez in the game late and save Mulder and Foulke to use when he was catching. Distinct advantage to have a pitcher/catcher duo that is familiar with each other late in the game.

Having Foulke close was a total shot at Manuel. Even if it wasn't intended that way...

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 10:24 PM
Mike Scioscia out-manages Dusty Baker again!

Garret Anderson is the Ted Williams MVP.

Bisco Stu
07-15-2003, 10:29 PM
I agree Dusty Faker got completely outmanaged. Great game, the 4th AS Game on the Sout Side was a gem.

Sweet that Mags made the last catch.

doublem23
07-15-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher
E-mail me, I can hook you up. 34rancher@comcast.net

Sent... Thanks, man.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, it was more like you typed it, this time it counts. It was a fun game to watch, but even the players didn't seem to be taking it all that seriously. Still, one of the better ASG's I can remember. Nice comeback and lots of homeruns.

I thought it was a great managerial decision by Soscia (sp?) to put Hernandez in the game late and save Mulder and Foulke to use when he was catching. Distinct advantage to have a pitcher/catcher duo that is familiar with each other late in the game.

Having Foulke close was a total shot at Manuel. Even if it wasn't intended that way...

Right. Disregarding all the hoopla over "This Time It Counts!" and the fact that it still is an exhibition game showcasing some of the best players currently in the game, it was a pretty entertaining game. Maybe not emotionally, but not everything has to be that way for you to have a good time.

I was going to put it was a lot better than last year's, but it was so funny last year that I'm not quite sure.

Nah, this year was better. Maggs may not have had a hit, but it was great seeing him in RF to finish the game off and Loaiza pitched like he has pitched all year long - like a Cy Young Award winner.

And, as Kevin Kennedy interviews Scioscia, I can't stress how wonderful it was to watch the coach of the home team at the Cell do a fantastic job at managing.

Scioscia, referring to Rafael Furcal almost hitting the game-tying home run in the 9th: "That little guy has some pop!"

That's a great line.

duke of dorwood
07-15-2003, 10:35 PM
Baker is a sham with a big mouth and average managerial ability. Foulke to Maggs-what could have been.

duke of dorwood
07-15-2003, 10:36 PM
Now they can fire Manual while all the media is there

mandmandm
07-15-2003, 10:37 PM
Doublem23: American made tv vcr, is it from the early 80's? As glad as I am that the American league came back I am happy I cashed in my seats. Looking forward to attending a half empty cell as the Tigers go for their second straight sweep on Sunday. Now that is White Sox baseball. None of those fancy, big shot allstars.

MarkEdward
07-15-2003, 10:43 PM
Quick thoughts:

- Did anyone else think the crowd was a bit quiet? Then again, maybe it was just Fox's screwed up audio.

- Booing anyone on the AL team= classless. If, by some odd chance, we actually make it to the Series, these AL players are trying to get us home field advantage. And you're going to boo them?

- I loved how Buck and McCarver made such a big deal of Dusty's "six inning game," only too see Gagne and Wagner completely blow the game.

- Overall, a good game. Thomas needed to be there though.

Vsahajpal
07-15-2003, 10:46 PM
How did Dusty get outmanaged? His plan was perfect, get the lead, go to the best 3 closers in major league baseball. Gagne just blew it. Oh I get it...should've brought in Smoltz...and THEN Gagne. lol

doublem23
07-15-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Doublem23: American made tv vcr, is it from the early 80's? As glad as I am that the American league came back I am happy I cashed in my seats. Looking forward to attending a half empty cell as the Tigers go for their second straight sweep on Sunday. Now that is White Sox baseball. None of those fancy, big shot allstars.

No, this thing is relatively new. It was working fine and then I went to the park to shoot some hoops and I come back and the tape it half-out.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
How did Dusty get outmanaged? His plan was perfect, get the lead, go to the best 3 closers in major league baseball. Gagne just blew it. Oh I get it...should've brought in Smoltz...and THEN Gagne. lol

I'm not one to usually argue, but let me back up what I said.

Obviously, Baker can't be held totally responsible for what his team does, but here we go. Here's how Dusty was out-managed:

Scioscia prepared himself, kept his bench open for changes from Baker. Baker made the move to bring in Wagner in the 7th. Then in the 8th, he brought in Gagne. Scioscia used pinch-runners best suited for running, brought in pitchers that were best suited to their role (for the most part) and as I said above, kept his bench open for change.

With the chance to tie the game or take the lead, Scioscia brings Hank Blalock, a lefty who hits well against right-handers. Gagne is a right-hander, whom Baker had brought in and was getting hit pretty handily. It didn't take too long for Scioscia's managing to out-manage Baker's.

And, Baker manages to be on the losing team against Mike Scioscia again.

MarkEdward
07-15-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
How did Dusty get outmanaged? His plan was perfect, get the lead, go to the best 3 closers in major league baseball. Gagne just blew it. Oh I get it...should've brought in Smoltz...and THEN Gagne. lol

For what it's worth, I wasn't bashing Dusty. I was bashing McCarver and Buck. Dusty's strategy was fine (might've taken out his starters a bit early though).

Iguana775
07-15-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
I'm not one to usually argue, but let me back up what I said.

Obviously, Baker can't be held totally responsible for what his team does, but here we go. Here's how Dusty was out-managed:

Scioscia prepared himself, kept his bench open for changes from Baker. Baker made the move to bring in Wagner in the 7th. Then in the 8th, he brought in Gagne. Scioscia used pinch-runners best suited for running, brought in pitchers that were best suited to their role (for the most part) and as I said above, kept his bench open for change.

With the chance to tie the game or take the lead, Scioscia brings Hank Blalock, a lefty who hits well against right-handers. Gagne is a right-hander, whom Baker had brought in and was getting hit pretty handily. It didn't take too long for Scioscia's managing to out-manage Baker's.

And, Baker manages to be on the losing team against Mike Scioscia again.

if only the Sox had a manager that could out manage someone.

Vsahajpal
07-15-2003, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
I'm not one to usually argue, but let me back up what I said.

Obviously, Baker can't be held totally responsible for what his team does, but here we go. Here's how Dusty was out-managed:

Scioscia prepared himself, kept his bench open for changes from Baker. Baker made the move to bring in Wagner in the 7th. Then in the 8th, he brought in Gagne. Scioscia used pinch-runners best suited for running, brought in pitchers that were best suited to their role (for the most part) and as I said above, kept his bench open for change.

With the chance to tie the game or take the lead, Scioscia brings Hank Blalock, a lefty who hits well against right-handers. Gagne is a right-hander, whom Baker had brought in and was getting hit pretty handily. It didn't take too long for Scioscia's managing to out-manage Baker's.

And, Baker manages to be on the losing team against Mike Scioscia again.


That's some funny sheet. Scioscia used pinch runners better suited for running? LMAO! Okay...

Wagner-Gagne-Smoltz, PERIOD! These three are the best in the business. Baker used relievers better suited for relieving...

Lefty-right, it doesn't matter. Left-handed batters are hitting .137 against Eric Gagne. That is absolutely frightening. He hasn't blown a save all season.

In all honesty, I thought this was the best game Dusty's managed all year...lol. Scioscia brought in Guardado to face Edmonds, Baker pinch-hits with Andruw, and he smacks a 2-run double to left. I was shocked he did something right.

Scioscia used pitchers best suited for their role? Uh, maybe Donnelley, apart from that, he got burned with Hasegawa, Mulder, and Guardado.

Or...maybe they just didn't perform. Nah that couldn't be it...

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 11:07 PM
The more and more I hear from Alex Rodriguez, the more and more I believe he is the perfect spokesman for Major League Baseball.

He has dignity, is knowledgeable, carries himself extremely well and seems like an incredibly amiable person.

Not to mention his support of the White Sox. He said just now, on Fox post-game, that of the seven all-star games he's been to, tonight's (July 15, 2003) was the best.

And, just for emphasis, I'll say it again:

The more and more I hear from Alex Rodriguez, the more and more I believe he is the perfect spokesman for Major League Baseball.

:smile:

Vsahajpal
07-15-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Dusty's strategy was fine (might've taken out his starters a bit early though).

Wasn't that a beautiful thing, to see him not abuse young pitchers? I wish he managed every game like he did today.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
That's some funny sheet. Scioscia used pinch runners better suited for running? LMAO! Okay...

Wagner-Gagne-Smoltz, PERIOD! These three are the best in the business. Baker used relievers better suited for relieving...

Lefty-right, it doesn't matter. Left-handed batters are hitting .137 against Eric Gagne. That is the absolutely frightening. He hasn't blown a save all season.

In all honesty, I thought this was the best game Dusty's managed all year...lol. Scioscia brought in Guardado to face Edmonds, Baker pinch-hits with Andruw, and he smacks a 2-run double to left. I was shocked he did something right.

Scioscia used pitchers best suited for their role? Uh, maybe Donnelley, apart from that, he got burned with Hasegawa, Mulder, and Guardado.

Or...maybe they just didn't perform. Nah that couldn't be it...

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have a speedster like Melvin Mora on second than have him handle the bat... Especially against the best one-two-three punch in baseball!

Regarding roles, Scioscia pitched them where he thought they would have had success, but they didn't. Baker did the same thing. It didn't work out, either.

I never said Baker didn't manage well at all. I never said the whole blame should be on him. Players don't perform all the time, sure, I'll except that.

When Gagne started struggling, Baker opted to let him ride it out. Gagne was giving up some knocks, and they weren't exactly bloops, either. I don't know if Baker had Smoltz up (which would've completed the triumvirate!), but Gagne was allowed to try and finish the inning.

Up came Blalock, whom Scioscia had kept on the bench. As far as I know, Blalock had never faced Gagne before. Scioscia made the move and Baker stood pat.

How do you out-manage an opposing manager? Try and anticipate what options he has and might utilize and when the moves are made, he can do what he thinks will offset them or give his team the advantage. Baker might've had some moves work for him, but Scioscia had some too and he had the one that provided the game-winner.

If that's not out-managing an opposing manager - pulling out all the stops that you need to win the game and playing off another manager's move into your own advantage - then I don't know what is.

Gagne may not have had his stuff, but Baker left him out there. Scioscia countered it perfectly and that proved to be the game-winning decision.

Nick@Nite
07-15-2003, 11:25 PM
Hope Garret Anderson cools off before the Angels play the Sox in August, mercy!

I hope Garret Anderson rips KC/Twins pitching... that'd be nice.

Bisco Stu
07-15-2003, 11:29 PM
Baker ran through his position players too quick, Scioscia saved them for key matchups.

WhiteSox = Life
07-15-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
Baker ran through his position players too quick, Scioscia saved them for key matchups.

Thank you. Another solid point, plainly stated instead of Life-Style.

Vsahajpal
07-15-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have a speedster like Melvin Mora on second than have him handle the bat... Especially against the best one-two-three punch in baseball!

Regarding roles, Scioscia pitched them where he thought they would have had success, but they didn't. Baker did the same thing. It didn't work out, either.

I never said Baker didn't manage well at all. I never said the whole blame should be on him. Players don't perform all the time, sure, I'll except that.

When Gagne started struggling, Baker opted to let him ride it out. Gagne was giving up some knocks, and they weren't exactly bloops, either. I don't know if Baker had Smoltz up (which would've completed the triumvirate!), but Gagne was allowed to try and finish the inning.

Up came Blalock, whom Scioscia had kept on the bench. As far as I know, Blalock had never faced Gagne before. Scioscia made the move and Baker stood pat.

How do you out-manage an opposing manager? Try and anticipate what options he has and might utilize and when the moves are made, he can do what he thinks will offset them or give his team the advantage. Baker might've had some moves work for him, but Scioscia had some too and he had the one that provided the game-winner.

If that's not out-managing an opposing manager - pulling out all the stops that you need to win the game and playing off another manager's move into your own advantage - then I don't know what is.

Gagne may not have had his stuff, but Baker left him out there. Scioscia countered it perfectly and that proved to be the game-winning decision.


No manager would take out Gagne, none. It wasn't about being out-managed, it was about Gagne not making his pitch, and Blalock capitalizing on it. Gagne was without question the guy to use in that situation. Two batters earlier, Scioscia countered with a lefty (Everett), and Gagne made him look silly. With one out to go in the 8th, and a two run lead, no need to bring in Smoltz or anyone else.

voodoochile
07-15-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
No manager would take out Gagne, none. It wasn't about being out-managed, it was about Gagne not making his pitch, and Blalock capitalizing on it. Gagne was without question the guy to use in that situation. Two batters earlier, Scioscia countered with a lefty (Everett), and Gagne made him look silly. With one out to go in the 8th, and a two run lead, no need to bring in Smoltz or anyone else.

The only problem I see - and this isn't truly a knock on Baker is that closers are used to closing. Pitching them in the 7th and 8th innings isn't what they are used to doing. In addition, it once again comes down to the difference between starters and closers. Starters are better pitchers. Late in the game, Scioscia had Mulder come in and pitch to his regular battery mate. Now some of that is good luck and some of it is good planning.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2003, 12:00 AM
I LOVED IT that Sox fans booed the dung out of the "enemy" especially since it was members of other A.L. teams.

Sox fans were showing that the only team they care about is their own, to hell with everyone else.

As far as "home field advantage" in the World Series, that's not going to be an issue for the Sox again is it?

Lip

voodoochile
07-16-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I LOVED IT that Sox fans booed the dung out of the "enemy" especially since it was members of other A.L. teams.

Sox fans were showing that the only team they care about is their own, to hell with everyone else.

As far as "home field advantage" in the World Series, that's not going to be an issue for the Sox again is it?

Lip

Not anymore...

WhiteSox = Life
07-16-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
No manager would take out Gagne, none. It wasn't about being out-managed, it was about Gagne not making his pitch, and Blalock capitalizing on it. Gagne was without question the guy to use in that situation. Two batters earlier, Scioscia countered with a lefty (Everett), and Gagne made him look silly. With one out to go in the 8th, and a two run lead, no need to bring in Smoltz or anyone else.

It's always tough to say which manager did better. If one manager gives his players more chances to win and they pull through, I say he out-managed the opposing manager. Just for the simple fact he depended upon his players and gave them chances to win.

Baker did the same thing, and it just didn't work for him. Sometimes as a manager, you're not as key in the game as long as the players take care of it. In the All-Star Game, the manager has to juggle the talent as much as possible to figure out the best positions and situations for his players.

I believe that while Baker did a very fine job, Scioscia just managed to do a bit of a better job, which led to the American League winning.

You have your opinion, which I highly respect and I have mine, too. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this argument.

And, I think we both can manage that.

doublem23
07-16-2003, 12:09 AM
Eh, is it really that much of a question who did a better job? Even though I think Baker's got as much mental activity as an earwig, I got to say that the biggest reason the National League lost was that Gagne put one in Blalock's wheelhouse and he turned on the ****.

If Hank hit that ball an inch to the side we'd all be roasting Mike for sticking in Shigetoshi Hasegawa and Eddie Guardado. :?: :?: :?:

voodoochile
07-16-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Eh, is it really that much of a question who did a better job? Even though I think Baker's got as much mental activity as an earwig, I got to say that the biggest reason the National League lost was that Gagne put one in Blalock's wheelhouse and he turned on the ****.

If Hank hit that ball an inch to the side we'd all be roasting Mike for sticking in Shigetoshi Hasegawa and Eddie Guardado. :?: :?: :?:

You know, if Blalock doesn't turn on that pitch, there might be a whole lot of talking about the HF advantage in the WS being decided on a umpire's unusual judgement call to allow a runner to score from first on a ground rule double...

Vsahajpal
07-16-2003, 12:20 AM
Exactly, doub. Gagne made a mistake and Hank doesn't miss too many of those.


Didn't Mulder give up some hits? Jones' solo HR, among them?

What're the odds that Wagner gives up a HR to a lefty? And then Gagne blows his first save in a millenium?

Sorry, Dusty wasn't outmanaged.

FarWestChicago
07-16-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Sorry, Dusty wasn't outmanaged. You're probaby right, Vic. He's probably just picked up the North Side Curse...doomed to failure. :smile:

doublem23
07-16-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal

Sorry, Dusty wasn't outmanaged.

Err, I'm not going to go that far, as I do think that Sciosia managed a better game than Baker, but I don't think that Baker is the lone/biggest reason the American League won.

Players didn't perform when asked. They are All-Stars you know.

There is a difference between putting Antonio "Six Fingers" Alfonseca a day after giving up a walk-off homer and putting the game in Eric Gagne's hands.

WhiteSox = Life
07-16-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Err, I'm not going to go that far, as I do think that Sciosia managed a better game than Baker, but I don't think that Baker is the lone reason the American League won.

Right. With all the talent that the National League had, a whole bunch of factors had to go the American League's way for their victory. It wasn't just the managing from either side, it was about the players, too.

It was a bunch of variables that led to the National League's loss, and it just seemed compounded in Baker's direction when Gagne, for whatever reason, couldn't get out of an inning without blowing the game and giving up the lead.

MarkEdward
07-16-2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Wasn't that a beautiful thing, to see him not abuse young pitchers? I wish he managed every game like he did today.

Oh, just be happy the game didn't go into extra innings. I could totally see Dusty pitching Prior for five or six innings, if need be.

siugrad25
07-16-2003, 12:39 AM
For what it's worth, I'm very glad I got a chance to shut some people up the past few days. It seems like everyone I know down here wants to throw a jab or two at the expense of White Sox fans and the Cell.

At my paper down here, they were starting, 'how many fans would run onto the field' pools and wondered how many blue seats they would see there.

And they couldn't understand why the fans of Chicago would boo another Chicago player (i.e. Baker, Woods) at an ASG.

It's amazing how much flack I've gotten since I moved down here about how the Cubs are so great... blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, Comiskey looked great and the fans for the most part seemed to be having a blast. I think we turned a lot of heads these past three days and that should help us when we move into first place in the second half of the season.

cheeses_h_rice
07-16-2003, 12:41 AM
I got back from the game about an hour ago, and I have to say it turned out to be an excellent night of baseball. It certainly didn't look that way for a while, thanks to "Shiggy" Hasegawa and "Fast Eddie" Guardado, but the AL kept chipping away, and it was pretty great seeing Eric Gagne meltdown, Keith Foulke get the save, and Maggs pocketing the final AL out.

Re: the crowd and the booing. The crowd was mostly Sox fans, and yes we were booing everyone on the Cubs as well as everyone else in the AL Central -- why not? Sure they're on our "team," but hey, they're still the enemy for 162 games this year. I had mixed feelings on people booing Manuel (I cheered for him), but whatever, I can understand it.

Overall, I thought the crowd was a bit quiet, but when Blaylock hit his zinger, people were going nuts. I especially liked directing my cheers toward the 2 Cub fan fatties down the row from me who were taking special glee in Maggs' popping out and Everett's weak grounder to first. Other than those 2, I thought everyone around me was very polite and well-mannered...except of course for the drunken Cub fan who decided to almost assault my mother on the walk to our car, asking her "Surely you're too smart to be a Sox fan, right?" I asked her what she meant by that (seeing as the opposite holds more true), but she was too wasted to back up her smack. Whatever. It wasn't a Cubs-Sox game, you idiot -- it was the All-Star game. Leave the smack at home next time, or at least consume fewer than 6 beers.

And one last comment: I almost felt compelled to boo Vanessa Carlton for her weak-assed TAPED/studio-touched-up version of the National Anthem. Absolutely disgusting; I've never heard anyone do a lip-synced version of that song...if she couldn't sing it live, then get Wayne Messmer or somebody else. Sheesh.

All in all, both Chicago teams were represented decently, with the Sox doing better on defense (Loaiza's 2 innings, Maggs' several put-outs). Too bad Maggs couldn't get more than one AB, but when you're subbing for Ichiro, take what you can get, I guess.

Unregistered
07-16-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You know, if Blalock doesn't turn on that pitch, there might be a whole lot of talking about the HF advantage in the WS being decided on a umpire's unusual judgement call to allow a runner to score from first on a ground rule double... If memory serves, after the Ump made that call, the next batter hit a double to score another run. That being said, even without the call the runner would have scored anyway. I don't think it would have been that big a scandal.

As far as Dusty Baylor's managing - It seemed like he was managing to get everyone in the game, as demonstrated by pretty much replacing his entire roster in the 5th inning. As was talked about on ESPN, it seemed like Scioscia was managing more to win and play favorable matchups than to get all of his players in.

cheeses_h_rice
07-16-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
If memory serves, after the Ump made that call, the next batter hit a double to score another run. That being said, even without the call the runner would have scored anyway. I don't think it would have been that big a scandal.

As far as Dusty Baylor's managing - It seemed like he was managing to get everyone in the game, as demonstrated by pretty much replacing his entire roster in the 5th inning. As was talked about on ESPN, it seemed like Scioscia was managing more to win and play favorable matchups than to get all of his players in.

But according to Vic, he wasn't outmanaged.

Go figure.

:)

trimbo
07-16-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice

And one last comment: I almost felt compelled to boo Vanessa Carlton for her weak-assed TAPED/studio-touched-up version of the National Anthem. Absolutely disgusting; I've never heard anyone do a lip-synced version of that song...if she couldn't sing it live, then get Wayne Messmer or somebody else. Sheesh.


Hey, at least the version wasn't one of those long, drawn out, off-key, off-beat versions that these "A&M Artist So-And-Sos" always insist on doing. I was listening on the internet, so I didn't realize it was lipsynced until I just caught up on my tivo a little bit ago.

Speaking of the game though, I don't think it's really fair to compare who managed better in this game. It's not a normal baseball game. They're rotating starters into the game in the 4th inning, players into various positions, pinch hitting, etc.. The whole situation doesn't give the managers any room to make real game decisions.

Besides, Dusty already proved he was outmanaged by Scioscia in the World Series last year, what else do you want?


Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
All in all, both Chicago teams were represented decently[/B]

I thought The Cell looked spectacular on TV and Chicago was very well represented. When's the last time the country really got to see the scoreboard explode like it did with that Blalock HR? It's too bad it wasn't Mags or (dare I even say it?) Crazy Carl, but hey, I think the park came across as a really exciting, great place to see a game.

voodoochile
07-16-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
If memory serves, after the Ump made that call, the next batter hit a double to score another run. That being said, even without the call the runner would have scored anyway. I don't think it would have been that big a scandal.


You are correct.

Lip Man 1
07-16-2003, 02:18 AM
Thoughts on the game:

The park looked great at night. The first time since October 1993 a meaningful game was played at night there and the entire country got to see it. I started thinking how wonderful it would be if someday that could happen again in LATE October.

Sox players did well especially Esteban and Mags (three putouts)

Chris Berman can kiss my ass for his bitching remarks towards Sox fans after the game. If he's that dumb that he doesn't realize that Sox fans HATE the Cubs then he should stick with football. (Which he should do anyway!) Karl Ravich should be doing that stuff, he does it all year, then Berman horns in at the All Star Game and World Series. Typical New Yorker (which he is...)

Seeing Clemens in home white pinstripes and A-Rod just made me wonder, what would this franchise look like if the Sox had signed Clemens and say Moises Alou (who had three tremendous years for the Astros) instead of Belle and Navarro. And what might have happened had Jerry Reinsdorf not pissed off Scott Boras to the point that he completely blew the Sox off when Williams wanted to meet with A-Rod.

Sigh...

Lip

Vsahajpal
07-16-2003, 05:13 AM
Dusty's replacements are precisely why they built the lead in the first place. He pinch hit Furcal for Renteria, and Raffy singled Rolen to 2nd. Scioscia brought in Guardado, Dusty replaced Edmonds with Andruw Jones, who laced the 2-run double to left, and scored the 5th run on a Pujols single. Jones also drilled the solo HR...

I guess I'll rest my case here, I've seen the backlash Manuel gets, so really I shouldn't care. But it is beyond me how anyone could argue against Wagner-Gagne-Smoltz with a 3-run lead going into the 7th. 9 times out of 10, they could replace the positional NL All-Stars with Pirates and Padres, and the NL would still prevail with those 3 aces on the mound.

Believe, I'm no fan of Dusty, I think I've made that clear in other threads.

DrCrawdad
07-16-2003, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
...I guess I'll rest my case here, I've seen the backlash Manuel gets, so really I shouldn't care. But it is beyond me how anyone could argue against Wagner-Gagne-Smoltz with a 3-run lead going into the 7th. 9 times out of 10, they could replace the positional NL All-Stars with Pirates and Padres, and the NL would still prevail with those 3 aces on the mound.

Believe, I'm no fan of Dusty, I think I've made that clear in other threads.

I don't think that Dusty was exactly outmanaged, the players made the day. But what would people be saying if the NL won? Don't you think we'd be hearing how it was further proof of the "geniusness" of Dusty?

I won't comment on your little slap at Sox fans.

Vsahajpal
07-16-2003, 06:41 PM
What slap?