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hold2dibber
07-14-2003, 05:23 PM
John Sickels of ESPN.com has a pretty high opinion of Scott Dunn (http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/downonthefarm/1580231.html), who the Sox acquired for Jimenez. Makes me feel a little bit better about jettisoning the best 2B option the Sox had for '04.

MHOUSE
07-14-2003, 06:24 PM
Jimenez sucked. The fact that we got a decent relief prospect for him is a steal. I know he's hitting well for the Reds now, but he'll come back down to earth. He would be terrible as our future second baseman. The guy has nothing between his ears.

hold2dibber
07-15-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Jimenez sucked. The fact that we got a decent relief prospect for him is a steal. I know he's hitting well for the Reds now, but he'll come back down to earth. He would be terrible as our future second baseman. The guy has nothing between his ears.

He is a rockhead, but he also is way more talented than Harris, Hummel, Miles, or anybody else the Sox have to play 2B next year. Jimenez will have a better career than any of those guys.

Gumshoe
07-15-2003, 11:54 AM
MHOUSE, you don't know what you are talking about. Jimenez virtually carried the team offensively for the first 2 months. He made a few mistakes. No one said to trade Miguel Olivo for his stupid miscues! God knows he had as many on the basepaths.

Dib knows that D'Angelo under good managerial direction will be a fine player. I know it too. It'll be another example of the Sox giving up someone who turns out to be very solid.

Face it, add another to the things that Gumshoe will have been right about. Foulke, Jimenez, Everett will be a bad trade.

If we can get Weaver somehow I'll applaud KW. If we get Weaver and get RID of Koch, that's the best deal of all time.

Gumshoe

Randar68
07-15-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Face it, add another to the things that Gumshoe will have been right about. Foulke, Jimenez, Everett will be a bad trade.



"Another?"

Doesn't that insinuate that there was at least one instance prior? Still waiting.

Gumshoe
07-15-2003, 03:35 PM
Foulke is the most evident bad trade I've seen in a while.

Jimenez will show you. So will Everett.

Ok Randar?

Gumshoe

Randar68
07-15-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Foulke is the most evident bad trade I've seen in a while.

Jimenez will show you. So will Everett.

Ok Randar?

Gumshoe


Hey, I am not a big fan of either trade, but it's not like you are out on a limb by yourself defending some valiant point. A good majority of folks did not like either trade.

The Everett trade is a good one no matter which prospects they get as long as the Sox get draft pick compensation and he rejects arbitration. Otherwise, if they gave up prospects and get no picks, it was a bad trade.

NC_sox_fan
07-16-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
John Sickels of ESPN.com has a pretty high opinion of Scott Dunn (http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/downonthefarm/1580231.html), who the Sox acquired for Jimenez. Makes me feel a little bit better about jettisoning the best 2B option the Sox had for '04.

Sickels was also very high on Royce Ring in this article.

baseballboy
07-16-2003, 10:43 PM
I have liked every single trade Kenny has ever made except for the Ritchie deal. Right off the bat I thought he gave up too much for that. I never liked Wells, but we should have received more than Ritchie. Fogg never got a chance, but he hasnt looked very good since the beginning of last year and Sean Lowe sucks so who cares. Just too much for a guy with a half of a good year. I even liked getting Jimenez in return for nothing from the padres, however I soon realized why we received him for nothing.

But every other trade Kenny has made has looked good from the beginning. Just hasnt worked out. But I love his aggressiveness. I love to see that he is trying to win. Dont forget this guy does snot have the money of the yanks or the scrubs or the braves or red sox. He has to be creative. Get deals to work with the financial restrictions he encounters. Look at the guys he acquired this year. Colon, Loaiza, Flash Gordon, Rick White, Daubach, Everett and Alomar.

Yeah you pessimists will point out Koch and Rios, I know I know KW sucks. But hey he tries. Can you say that about the scrubs? Hawks? Bulls? Isn't it nice to at least have that in this town of losing teams? A GM that tries and wants to win more than anything? You KW rippers make me sick. Koch, a healthy Koch. A Koch that can throw 97-100 consistently is much better than Keith "I wanna be a starter and never asked to be the closer" Foulke.

Does anyone even remember Foulke last year? He sucked! When asked about when he lost his job he said "I don't care, I never asked to be the closer in the first place" Little sissy. Fight for your job. You are the closer. The sox converted you into a closer because you sucked as a starter. Deal with it a do your job you little cry baby horses ass!

I am so sick of people saying what we dont have. Like these guys we gave up on this team now would make us any better. Foulke would still be crap here. Who is to say any different after seeing him last year. Even after he was going well, he had another chance at closing a game. He stunk! Minnesota, Seattle, Yankees, I can just see him in big games. I would be sweating it out everytime. Damn I hated him.

Come on get behind this team. Hopefully Manual gets replaced soon and we can get on a run here.

LETS GO WHITE SOX!!!!!!!!!

baseballboy
07-16-2003, 11:02 PM
Oh and one more thing. Gumshoe, if Jimenez practically carried the team offensively during the first month then why couldnt he keep his head in the game defensively? Arent you the same guy that wants Rowand in center because he is much better defensively? I would like a little consistencey here. To me Harris is a no brainer to keep on the bench instead of Jimenez. He can only play one position and not very well. They tried him at third where he also sucked. Harris can play both 2nd and CF. CF not as well, but 2b he looks to be very good. He has hit consistently well in the minors. He has potential. A lot more upside than D'ummy Jimenez.

His bad play was also causing some animosity between he and others in the clubhouse. I don't think you really want to get this clubhouse going south again do you? It doesnt even bother me that he got a potential middle reliever for the 25th man on the roster.

Then you compare him to Olivo? WHAT A JOKE! Big deal he made the same amount of baserunning mistakes. Olivo looks to be a stud behind the plate. A canon for an arm. He will continue to grow at the plate and he will be a stud for us for years. He can actually shut down a running game by himself. Again the defense that you mentioned so well with Everett and Rowand shows up again here.

For once actually cheer for a team you call your own. Stop complaining about worthless players such as Jimenez, who the hell cares about the 25th man. If Koch was throwing 97-100, trust me you wouldnt be complaining.

Rocklive99
07-16-2003, 11:26 PM
I still can't forget that game against Arizona. And that's not the only game where he'd run the Sox out of an inning. DJ just used to, I guess a good word is 'lollygag', it's like he would just roam the basepaths not knowing any situations or thinking at all. Not to mention that he used to live up to Ryan Klesko's claim of him being lazy everytime I saw him. The only part I miss is him being a decent hitter from both sides of the plate, but Alomar is also a switch hitter and I believe his 1st White Sox hit was off a lefty.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 12:08 AM
[i]

Yeah you pessimists will point out Koch and Rios, I know I know KW sucks. But hey he tries. Can you say that about the scrubs? Hawks? Bulls? Isn't it nice to at least have that in this town of losing teams? A GM that tries and wants to win more than anything? You KW rippers make me sick. Koch, a healthy Koch. A Koch that can throw 97-100 consistently is much better than Keith "I wanna be a starter and never asked to be the closer" Foulke.

Does anyone even remember Foulke last year? He sucked! When asked about when he lost his job he said "I don't care, I never asked to be the closer in the first place" Little sissy. Fight for your job. You are the closer. The sox converted you into a closer because you sucked as a starter. Deal with it a do your job you little cry baby horses ass!

I am so sick of people saying what we dont have. Like these guys we gave up on this team now would make us any better. Foulke would still be crap here. Who is to say any different after seeing him last year. Even after he was going well, he had another chance at closing a game. He stunk! Minnesota, Seattle, Yankees, I can just see him in big games. I would be sweating it out everytime. Damn I hated him.


LETS GO WHITE SOX!!!!!!!!! [/B]

A healthy Koch still isn't better then Foulke. Foulke had a solid year last season. He had a few bad outings, but far less then Koch has already had this year.

As for the drop off in velocity, the SOx should have expected it. Did you see how many games hand innings he pitches last season. A good GM would take that fact into consideration just like he's take into conisderation that Koch is nothing but a one pitch pitcher. Once that pitch goes, so does Koch as evidenced by the 2003 season.

I'm sick of trying. JM is trying to win, he just sees the best way to do it is through tinkering. KW is trying to win by being aggressive. But they're not doing it. It's not working. How much time are you going to give KW before you see that. Also take into consideration the intangibles. How many players are sick of KW coming into the clubhouse with his tirades. He's undermining JM's authority right there, and pissing off the players.

Is it any wonder that so many players that have been traded away the last 2 years have nothing positive to say about there time with the Sox?

Bob

hold2dibber
07-17-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
But every other trade Kenny has made has looked good from the beginning. Just hasnt worked out. But I love his aggressiveness. I love to see that he is trying to win. Dont forget this guy does snot have the money of the yanks or the scrubs or the braves or red sox. He has to be creative. Get deals to work with the financial restrictions he encounters. Look at the guys he acquired this year. Colon, Loaiza, Flash Gordon, Rick White, Daubach, Everett and Alomar.

There is no doubt in my mind that KW really, really wants to win. Which is certainly part of the battle. I am still not sold on his acumen, but he's at least decent (good: Marte for Guerrier, Colon for Biddle/Osuna/Liefer, signing Gordon, Howry for prospects; bad: Foulke for Koch, Wells/Lowe/Fogg for Ritchie, Durham for Adkins). He built a team with a lot of talent this year. They're not perfect, but they certainly have the most talent in the AL Central. That they're nonetheless 7 games out is an indictment of JM and the players, not of KW.

Koch, a healthy Koch. A Koch that can throw 97-100 consistently is much better than Keith "I wanna be a starter and never asked to be the closer" Foulke..

That is simply not true. By virtualy every single possible statistical measure, Foulke has been better than Koch over the course of their careers.

I am so sick of people saying what we dont have. Like these guys we gave up on this team now would make us any better. Foulke would still be crap here. Who is to say any different after seeing him last year. Even after he was going well, he had another chance at closing a game. He stunk! Minnesota, Seattle, Yankees, I can just see him in big games. I would be sweating it out everytime. Damn I hated him.


Why would Foulke "still be crap here"? Was he "crap" in 2000 or 2001? Was his under 1.00 ERA in the second half last year crap? Like so many others, you remember his blown saves only and use that "evidence" to conclude that he sucked. But every closer blows games. It's the same in every town; Giants fans crap their pants when Nen comes in, Mets fans crap their pants when Benitez comes in, etc., etc., because they remember that game last year when the closer blew that big lead and man that sucked. But Foulke blows less games than most. He also puts less base runners on than most, which improves his chances of closing out the game. He is one of the best closers in the game, and has been for several years. JM mis-used him last year, and KW undervalued him.

baseballboy
07-17-2003, 09:12 AM
What player do you actually care about that was traded by KW besides Keith Foulke? I have never heard Any player traded by Kenny have anything bad or good to say abou the sox. I can't remember anyone having anything bad to say about KW or the sox. I dont know where you were going with that.

When are you going to realize that maybe it isnt KW but Manual ruining the team. He should be fired. This was not Kenny's choice as manager and maybe he is being forced to keep him by Reinsdorf. Remember he was hired by Schuler.

Say what you want but someone has to try to fire up this club. I have only heard of one tirade and I guess that is what you are referring to. I also heard of one tirade by Reinsdorf at the end of last year. Obviously Manual can't fire em up. Unless you are acutually inside the clubhouse and have seen KW with any more tirades than the one that was reported then I really dont think you know what you are talking about.

Foulke did good as long as he wasnt the closer for us. He did terrible while he was. Once he was taken out of that situation he returned to form. Once he was given an opportunity again while going good he sucked it up again. He couldnt handle that job with us. Plus he didnt want it. Are you saying you cant remember his complaining about being a starter? Give me a break.

Your right though. We should have realize Koch threw a lot of innings last year. So if he throws half of that this year are you saying his arm will bounce back? Are you insuating that he is hurt? Does he just need rest? I don't know what you are sayin there either.

Benny

MarkEdward
07-17-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy

Does anyone even remember Foulke last year? He sucked!

Can somebody, ANYBODY, statistically back this up? Please? Numerous people on this board (and elsewhere) point out that Keith Foulke was well above average last year using every metric available. Yet people continue to say that Keith Foulke sucked.

Based on any evidence, can someone develop a logical argument in support of baseballboy's above statement? If so, I'd love to see it.

As for bad Kenny Williams' deals, remember Royce Clayton?

voodoochile
07-17-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
As for bad Kenny Williams' deals, remember Royce Clayton?

Well acquiring Royce was a bad decision all around, but the Sox didn't give up jack for him. Is Mayette even still in baseball?

Iwritecode
07-17-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Can somebody, ANYBODY, statistically back this up? Please?

Statistically, probably not.

The thing with Foulke is I don't think JM knew how to use him properly. When he came in to start the ninth inning he was usually lights out. But for whatever reason Manuel insisted on bringing him in during the 8th inning, with men on base in a tie ballgame. Keith has proven that he doesn't do well when he has to pitch more than one inning or when it is a tie game. Combine that with the fact that he lost control of his change for a little while last year and when he did finally get it back JM only used him in "non-pressure" situations, and you have the situation of today. For whatever reason he got on someone's bad side and got traded.

See Lowe, Sean for another example...

Iwritecode
07-17-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well acquiring Royce was a bad decision all around, but the Sox didn't give up jack for him. Is Mayette even still in baseball?

I thought I just saw his name show up in a trade somewhere...

Iwritecode
07-17-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I thought I just saw his name show up in a trade somewhere...

Yep, he was traded by the Tribe to the Phillies for Lyle Muton

voodoochile
07-17-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Yep, he was traded by the Tribe to the Phillies for Lyle Muton

Be still my beating heart...

Gumshoe
07-17-2003, 02:31 PM
Baseball Boy, you make some of the most insanely idiotic assertions in your above two posts. You are asking me for consistency. I'll give you my thorough analysis of KW:

The ultimate issue with a GM and a manager is the simplest in the world. All you lovers of KW and JM listen to me! If you win, you did a good job. You made the right moves. If you don't, you didn't do a good job. It's as simple as that. Who CARES about "it wasn't a bad move at the time" or "i would have done the same thing". That is all horsecrap. Yes, it is that simple. The main flaw behind KW is that he has tried to do too much instead of being patient. If he makes a good deal, he can't stop (witness Alomar leading to Everett deal). He clutters the lineup with guys who are not that versatile, which gives JM a harder time figuring things out. And if KW didn't think he could with a situation where Reinsdorf controls (even partially) his decisions, HE SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN the job. Since he did, he is fair game to criticism, because he chose the job with a purpose to WIN. I don't wanna hear this "he tries really hard crap." Who doesn't???????????????? Come on.

Now on to the moves:

Royce Clayton for Myette + others
Sox pay a 4 MIL salary for a guy with good D but little range, a cancer in the clubhouse, and a .220. Hm, what a great move to make. Oh yeah, let's let JM shuffle Jose to 3rd, CF, 2nd. Crap, let's let him play all 9. Good job, KW. Highlight? I was at the game where Royce got a hit off Cris Carpenter in the ninth after his average dipped BELOW .200. We cheered, MVP, MVP, MVP! I bet KW was proud.

Glover for Scott Eyre
I thought this was a steal at the time. Eyre sucked for us, Glover came in and pitched well. As is usual for KW, he brings in more guys later on so Glover can never pitch again. Even Sanders gets more innings now. Eyre was effective in the NLCS and World Series, much to my amazement, with SF.

David Wells for shouldergate incident
This is a great example of what KW backers are all about. "That was a great deal at the time," they'll say. What they don't recognize is the X-factors involved. Wells, a cancer who never wanted to be in our clubhouse (KW should have known), claims Frank is a ***** who won't play because he fakes injuries. There goes the Clubhouse. There goes the season. Good job, KW. Good intentions get us NOWHERE.

Kip Wells, Josh Fogg for Ritchie
At least Ritchie took it like a man. He sucked and made NO excuses. Another example of bringing over NL pitchers to the American league to get bombed. Wells I didn't think was that much risk giving up but Fogg has been solid for the Pirates, unspectacular. Still, way better than Ritchie.

Damaso Marte for minor leaguer(s)
GREAT move. One of his best. Too bad he doesn't have enough sense to make him the closer or pitch him MORE than guys like Tom Gordon.

D'Angelo Jimenez for 2 minor leaguers
Great move. Doesn't keep him around even as a utility player though, gone in less than a year. Willie Harris is better?????? This one will bite the Sox in the butt. Once DJ gets a good manager, he'll hit with power, average, good speed.

Willie Harris from Baltimore for Singleton
Ok, trade a CF for a 2B who is Ray Durham clone except 10 times WORSE. Then complain about not having a good CF. Oh and by the way, Singleton is at .280 this year (200 AB), and he hit around .298 for the Sox in 2001 (full season). Harris hits .198 in sporadic use.

Miguel Olivo for Chad Bradford
Gave up quality to get a player with a big upside at a needed position. Slight edge to the White Sox, becuase catchers are hard to find. Good move.

Loaiza, White, Gordon
Loaiza is the best pitcher in the AL. MADD credit to KW for what he deserves. White, another NL crossover, gets pounded. He looks a bit better now. Gordon blew just as many games as White. KW did a good job to invite a pitcher and then sign two guys to blow his wins.

Which brings us to the worst trade of them all, not only because it didn't work out, but because BEFOREHAND it was simply and insanely IDIOTIC, like baseball boys previous arguments (not all, some of them ... don't wanna get you too pissed).

The anti-Foulke argument consists of the folllowing:
a) Foulke didn't want to be a closer
b) He had a bad attitude
c) He blew big games
d) I don't like him, either

The pro-Foulke argument is this:
a) his K/BB ratio from 1999-2002 is enormous
1999: 6:1 with a 2.22 ERA
2000: 4:1 with a 2.97 ERA
2001: 3.5:1 with a 2.33 ERA
2002: 4.8:1 with a 2.90 ERA

I don't have to post Koch's stats. Over that time period, Foulke has a better K/BB ratio than Mariano Rivera. His ERA is slightly higher.

Not only do you give up a pitcher who is better in EVERY facet to Koch, but you trade away a catcher (there is no way they could have known that Olivo would be even close to ready for MLB) ,and another young closer (AND 2 draft picks because of FA). That's not all, folks. The worst part of the deal is that KW doesn't realize the enormous amount of pitches Koch threw in his TONS of innings the last 3 years.

You say, well IF Koch was throwing 97, I wouldn't be pissed? That's exactly the point! He's not, and it's for a reason. But even if he WERE, he's still not even close to Keith Foulke as a pitcher (remember last year against the Twins, game 5 ALDS???)

I'll end with this quote from Benny:
Foulke did good as long as he wasnt the closer for us. He did terrible while he was. Once he was taken out of that situation he returned to form. Once he was given an opportunity again while going good he sucked it up again. He couldnt handle that job with us. Plus he didnt want it. Are you saying you cant remember his complaining about being a starter? Give me a break.

He was arguably the best closer in baseball from 1999-2002. WHO CARES what his sentiment is???!!! He's not going to take the field and NOT try. With Foulke, we'd be 6 games up instead of 6 games under, my friends. That's all. Now we want to deal Koch. Good job, KW. Hahahaha, the guy is a LOSER, just like JM.

Gumshoe

MarkEdward
07-17-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Well acquiring Royce was a bad decision all around, but the Sox didn't give up jack for him. Is Mayette even still in baseball?

You're right. We didn't give up anything for him. But it did make our team much, much worse.

Originally posted by Iwritecode

The thing with Foulke is I don't think JM knew how to use him properly.


So it this Foulke's fault or Manuel's fault?

Gumshoe
07-17-2003, 04:02 PM
There is NO doubt that Foulke was HORRIFICALLY used at the start of 2002 which led to many stupid opinions. You don't go to a top 5 closer in baseball to a "bad closer" (as many would have you believe here, the stupid ones of course). The Yankee game which we lost because Foulke had problems was due more to JM not using him for 2 weeks at the time. He had no work. I'm not saying Foulke isn't going to blow a save from time to time. Gagne is the only one that good right now. However, when you don't get work for a full 2 weeks you can't say that it was the "same"pitcher or the same outcome would have occurred. Obviously a lot of these are JM's faults too. Watch Jimenez prosper under a good manager. Watch. It will have been a terrible mistake unless this Miles guy is unreal and we find a long term SS. I hope VAlentin stays but how much longer can he play?

hold2dibber
07-17-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I'm not saying Foulke isn't going to blow a save from time to time. Gagne is the only one that good right now.

Didn't you see the All Star game? I'd take Smoltz over Gagne (but just by a bit). But your point is a good one. They all blow saves, that's the nature of the job. But Foulke blows fewer than most, and doesn't flirt with disaster the way Koch always has.

Iwritecode
07-17-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So it this Foulke's fault or Manuel's fault?

Misuseing him was Manuel's fault.

Although as I said earlier, Foulke did go through period where he couldn't spot his changeup. Since that is his out pitch, the only thing he had left was his low ninties fastball. That was a time where he was getting hit hard. Management lost confidence in him then and never got it back even after he started posting great second-half numbers.

The only thing Foulke did wrong while he was here was talk about wanting to be a starter...

Iwritecode
07-17-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
But Foulke blows fewer than most, and doesn't flirt with disaster the way Koch always has.

He may not blow as many but I sure don't remember very many 1-2-3 ninth innings from him either...

:)

hold2dibber
07-17-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Now on to the moves:

Royce Clayton for Myette + others
Sox pay a 4 MIL salary for a guy with good D but little range, a cancer in the clubhouse, and a .220. Hm, what a great move to make. Oh yeah, let's let JM shuffle Jose to 3rd, CF, 2nd. Crap, let's let him play all 9. Good job, KW. Highlight? I was at the game where Royce got a hit off Cris Carpenter in the ninth after his average dipped BELOW .200. We cheered, MVP, MVP, MVP! I bet KW was proud.

Glover for Scott Eyre
I thought this was a steal at the time. Eyre sucked for us, Glover came in and pitched well. As is usual for KW, he brings in more guys later on so Glover can never pitch again. Even Sanders gets more innings now. Eyre was effective in the NLCS and World Series, much to my amazement, with SF.

David Wells for shouldergate incident
This is a great example of what KW backers are all about. "That was a great deal at the time," they'll say. What they don't recognize is the X-factors involved. Wells, a cancer who never wanted to be in our clubhouse (KW should have known), claims Frank is a ***** who won't play because he fakes injuries. There goes the Clubhouse. There goes the season. Good job, KW. Good intentions get us NOWHERE.

Kip Wells, Josh Fogg for Ritchie
At least Ritchie took it like a man. He sucked and made NO excuses. Another example of bringing over NL pitchers to the American league to get bombed. Wells I didn't think was that much risk giving up but Fogg has been solid for the Pirates, unspectacular. Still, way better than Ritchie.

Damaso Marte for minor leaguer(s)
GREAT move. One of his best. Too bad he doesn't have enough sense to make him the closer or pitch him MORE than guys like Tom Gordon.

D'Angelo Jimenez for 2 minor leaguers
Great move. Doesn't keep him around even as a utility player though, gone in less than a year. Willie Harris is better?????? This one will bite the Sox in the butt. Once DJ gets a good manager, he'll hit with power, average, good speed.

Willie Harris from Baltimore for Singleton
Ok, trade a CF for a 2B who is Ray Durham clone except 10 times WORSE. Then complain about not having a good CF. Oh and by the way, Singleton is at .280 this year (200 AB), and he hit around .298 for the Sox in 2001 (full season). Harris hits .198 in sporadic use.

Miguel Olivo for Chad Bradford
Gave up quality to get a player with a big upside at a needed position. Slight edge to the White Sox, becuase catchers are hard to find. Good move.

Loaiza, White, Gordon
Loaiza is the best pitcher in the AL. MADD credit to KW for what he deserves. White, another NL crossover, gets pounded. He looks a bit better now. Gordon blew just as many games as White. KW did a good job to invite a pitcher and then sign two guys to blow his wins.

Which brings us to the worst trade of them all, not only because it didn't work out, but because BEFOREHAND it was simply and insanely IDIOTIC, like baseball boys previous arguments (not all, some of them ... don't wanna get you too pissed).

The anti-Foulke argument consists of the folllowing:
a) Foulke didn't want to be a closer
b) He had a bad attitude
c) He blew big games
d) I don't like him, either

The pro-Foulke argument is this:
a) his K/BB ratio from 1999-2002 is enormous
1999: 6:1 with a 2.22 ERA
2000: 4:1 with a 2.97 ERA
2001: 3.5:1 with a 2.33 ERA
2002: 4.8:1 with a 2.90 ERA

I don't have to post Koch's stats. Over that time period, Foulke has a better K/BB ratio than Mariano Rivera. His ERA is slightly higher.

Not only do you give up a pitcher who is better in EVERY facet to Koch, but you trade away a catcher (there is no way they could have known that Olivo would be even close to ready for MLB) ,and another young closer (AND 2 draft picks because of FA). That's not all, folks. The worst part of the deal is that KW doesn't realize the enormous amount of pitches Koch threw in his TONS of innings the last 3 years.

You say, well IF Koch was throwing 97, I wouldn't be pissed? That's exactly the point! He's not, and it's for a reason. But even if he WERE, he's still not even close to Keith Foulke as a pitcher (remember last year against the Twins, game 5 ALDS???)

Gumshoe

Off the top of my head, you forgot:

(1) Colon for Liefer/Biddle/Osuna (good trade);
(2) Durham for Adkins (bad trade);
(3) Howry for prospects (good trade);
(4) Alomar (Sandy) for prospects (good trade);
(5) Lofton for prospects (not sure);
(6) Baldwin for Majewski (?) and Masoaka (sp?) (and Barry/Berry?) (not sure);
(7) Signing Daubach, Rios and (Sandy) Alomar (good, bad, okay);
(8) Ring and others for Alomar (Robbie) (good);
(9) Prospects for Everett (not sure);
(10) Osuna for prospects (good);
(11) Signing Lofton (good);

I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. Overall, I'd give KW a C for his moves. He has had a couple completely blow up in his face, but he's made a couple of awfully good ones, too. In any event, while I suppose it is true that, ultimately, he is responsible for the Ws and Ls, do you not agree that the talent on this team is good enough to win the Central, and certainly better than their record indicates? You have to hold the manager and the players accountable, too. Now, with that said, KW should have canned Manuel about 2 months ago and replaced him with Leyland, Davey Johnson, Backman, or someone else who is going to get the most out of his players.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
He may not blow as many but I sure don't remember very many 1-2-3 ninth innings from him either...

:)

He has to have more then Koch. Koch has a 1.50 WHIP and at least check Foulke was at .99.

Bob

hold2dibber
07-17-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
He may not blow as many but I sure don't remember very many 1-2-3 ninth innings from him either...

:)

Foulke has WAY more 1-2-3 innings than Koch (and probably more than just about any closer in baseball over the last 4 years). Here are their respective WHIPs (walks plus hits per inning pitched) over the years:

'99: Koch 1.34, Foulke 0.88
'00: Koch 1.22, Foulke 1.00
'01: Koch 1.47, Foulke 0.98
'02: Koch 1.27, Foulke 0.97
'03: Koch 1.51, Foulke 0.97
Career: Koch 1.34, Foulke 1.05

Foulke ALWAYS allows less baserunners than Koch. Every year. By a wide margin. You may remember Foulke not having many 1-2-3 innings, but that's just because when he's on the hill, the game is on the line and you (and all Sox fans) are nervous and on the edge of your seat. Every baserunner is cause for an ulcer. But the facts are that Foulke lets up way fewer base runners than just about any closer in baseball (in fact, way fewer base runners than just about any pitcher in baseball).

baseballboy
07-17-2003, 07:09 PM
Post removed for offensive language. Try it again, without the graphic sexual references, please...

Gumshoe
07-17-2003, 08:06 PM
Benny, I seem to have put you on the defensive ... now you react with offense, but still without lucid thought or argument.

I don't care WHO we had, what was done, or what wasn't done. It didn't work. Get that through your head. I think we have a lot of talent, and for it not to be working has to be a direct reflection on our managerS.

You bringing up the guys we missed is absurd. And if you want to know the truth, if Everett is in CF, yes I DO miss Singleton. If Harris is at 2B I DO miss Jimenez.

Royce Clayton had a WEAK arm and average range at best. He was like Sandberg. He made plays but Jose has made far more major league plays. He has also made more errors, few of which ever seem to hurt us.

Why don't you tell KW to take his skirt off and put together a team that wins? I'm just going by facts and I watch every single game. If you can't see that the FOULKE trade was a complete ripoff and not understand that bullpen has been 1 of the 2 biggest downfalls this year, that goes to show a lot about how you view the Sox. I'll stop talking about it, because it continues to baffle me as well as show your idiocy time and time again.

When all is said and done, will KW have a winning team? He hasn't assembled ANYthing like it, from the last 2 years, and he's had players. If he gets it done this year, I'll give credit where it's due. But remember, this team with JM hasn't been over .500 for about 2-3 months.

When all is said and done, is KW a winner? FAR FROM it.

Oh yeah, I love how hard he tries. Putting grilled onions on a kosher dog would be hard for him, I guess. I'd pay money to see him doing what he should be doing --- Watching the game from the concourse selling me churros for 7 bucks/hour. That is about all he's worth.

HA

Gumshoe

Ventura23Fan
07-17-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Good luck to you and Fouke. I don't believe he will be seeing the playoffs this year either. How many blowns saves does he have this year? Oh yeah 4. Hmm, doesn't he pitch in a pitchers ballpark? Oh yeah, he does. Maybe those 4 games he blew will come down to the A's making the playoffs or not. Wouldn't that be marvelous!?!?!?

A blown save is not the same thing as a loss. Yes, Keith has 4 blown saves, but only one loss. Oh well, nobody's perfect. He also has 24 saves and 7 wins. Usually, when Keith does blow a save, he limits the damage to a run or two and he keeps his team in the game.

baseballboy
07-17-2003, 09:28 PM
Please help me out here. Give me a straight answer because it seems like you love all the players that left this team. You think that this team is better with Singleton in center and Jimenez at 2nd rather than Alomar at 2nd and Rowand/Everett in center? I think that is lunacy. The bullpen was also a downfall last year if I'm not mistaken and your boy Foulke was one of the reasons. One of the major reasons, because he couldn't handle the closers role. But like he said he never asked for it and never wanted it. I wish they kept stats of how well he did in closing situations last year as I am sure you would be whistling another tune. He was awful in that role last year, I am really sorry that you can't admit that.

I'm sorry I don't keep track of all of Jose's errors the way you do. It was well documented during our playoff year that they didn't hurt, but what is the percentages of them catching up to him? Jose has a much stronger arm, I will give you that. I can notice that when he is throwing them into right field, in the stands, across the dan ryan and into the robert taylor homes. Your right, very strong arm.

You think we have a lot of talent? Then what are you complaining about? You think we have a lot of talent in spite of Kenny Williams? Kenny Williams has nothing to do with the talent on this team?

I agree with JM being a horrible manager. He has proven that time and time again. Ever since being outmanaged by Sweet Lou in the playoffs. However, KW can't do nothing with the manager without Jerry's approval. I don't believe that approval has been given or Manual would have been gone.

I don't see you offereing any suggestions about who we should have or could have recieved to help us win for what we gave up. All I see you doing is complaining about the guys we gave up.

Good job at liking Jimenez and pointing out that he was great for 2 months of this season. I mean do you realize how pathetic that sounds. To like someone and think he is good becuase he was average for 2 months out of his 4 year career? He has no speed so I don't know where you get that from.

Here are his career stats:

AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG
1051 149 278 47 13 14 107 129 191 14 9 .265

You see anything at all that you like there? And his average has actually climbed this year. Imagine if he didnt have those GREAT 2 MONTHS you keep shoving down everyone's throats. This is in 286 games, I don't know if that matters to you, just thought I would throw that in for ya. He doesn't impress me and he hasn't ever. .265 career hitter? I thought he can hit? Oh wait, speed right? Yeah 14 SBs and he has been on base at least 393 times. He has attempted 23 SBs and been thrown out 9? That is getting thrown out about 39 percent of the time! WOW WHAT SPEED! WHAT A GREAT BASE RUNNER. I MISS HIM ALREADY! He would probably be the greatest 25th man on any roster if we would have kept him. Do you do realize that is all he is or all he ever will be? Just a bench player.

Now we already know he can't field so we won't even bother with those stats. Power, Average, Speed? Shouldn't he have developed at least one of those things by now? I mean he is 25 years old.

I don't think you realize how annyoing you sound when you complain all the time. Stop whining like a little bitch! It is the easiest thing in the world to sit back and 2nd guess someone. That is wonderful that you have that skill. You are probaby the most annoyingly pessimistic person on this board.

gosox41
07-17-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Foulke has WAY more 1-2-3 innings than Koch (and probably more than just about any closer in baseball over the last 4 years). Here are their respective WHIPs (walks plus hits per inning pitched) over the years:

'99: Koch 1.34, Foulke 0.88
'00: Koch 1.22, Foulke 1.00
'01: Koch 1.47, Foulke 0.98
'02: Koch 1.27, Foulke 0.97
'03: Koch 1.51, Foulke 0.97
Career: Koch 1.34, Foulke 1.05

Foulke ALWAYS allows less baserunners than Koch. Every year. By a wide margin. You may remember Foulke not having many 1-2-3 innings, but that's just because when he's on the hill, the game is on the line and you (and all Sox fans) are nervous and on the edge of your seat. Every baserunner is cause for an ulcer. But the facts are that Foulke lets up way fewer base runners than just about any closer in baseball (in fact, way fewer base runners than just about any pitcher in baseball).

Thanks for posting those numbers. It helps prove that saves are overrated and Koch really isn't that good of a pitcher. This whole 'Closer's Mentality' that Koch allegedly has is a load of bunk. Same think with the "bend but don't break" approach" when Koch puts runners on base just about every outing.

Bottom line is I want the pitcher that has the lowest WHIP; the one who puts the fewest guys on base is the one who is more likely a lot more effective.

Koch can take his 11 wins and 44 saves and so-called 100MPH fastball and shove it.

Bob