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Reichardt
07-10-2003, 04:26 PM
Even the most staunch Manuel supporters must agree that it is inevitable that he will be gone by the end of the year.
As happy as that will make many of us Sox fans - the problem is that KW is still the GM. Is he capable of attracting the top flight manager that this team needs or is he even capable of understanding what skills a good manager brings to the organization? God help us all! We're in a vicious loop of Reinsdorf -Williams- Manuel. If Manuel is gone and the other two remain, we're destined to suffer the same results with a different manager.

voodoochile
07-10-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Reichardt
Even the most staunch Manuel supporters must agree that it is inevitable that he will be gone by the end of the year.
As happy as that will make many of us Sox fans - the problem is that KW is still the GM. Is he capable of attracting the top flight manager that this team needs or is he even capable of understanding what skills a good manager brings to the organization? God help us all! We're in a vicious loop of Reinsdorf -Williams- Manuel. If Manuel is gone and the other two remain, we're destined to suffer the same results with a different manager.

KW has shown the guts to make big moves. The question is will JR let him spend the money to attract the best manager possible. The answer to that is probably "no".

DonkeyKongerko
07-10-2003, 05:28 PM
Isn't there a manager somewhere who thinks he can wins with a pretty decent lineup on paper, a decent rotation, and in the worst division in all of baseball?

Then again I think KW rejects all those managers.

Hangar18
07-10-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
KW has shown the guts to make big moves. The question is will JR let him spend the money to attract the best manager possible. The answer to that is probably "no".

He's shown that he can make the big move, but they somehow
BackFire. Does he have to guts to Get the RIGHT player this time?

Hangar18
07-10-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by DonkeyKongerko
Isn't there a manager somewhere who thinks he can wins with a pretty decent lineup on paper, a decent rotation, and in the worst division in all of baseball?

Then again I think KW rejects all those managers.

LET ME MANAGE THIS TEAM. Im dead serious, I wouldnt have gotten us those lost games (at least 5 of them) Im managing,
I have us at 5 more wins than where were at now...

TheRockinMT
07-10-2003, 05:56 PM
There is nothing wrong with Paul Konerko's hips, Kenny Williams is the GM and Jerry Manuel won't be fired.

jeremyb1
07-10-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
LET ME MANAGE THIS TEAM. Im dead serious, I wouldnt have gotten us those lost games (at least 5 of them) Im managing,
I have us at 5 more wins than where were at now...

i think its so ridiculous that everyone thinks we could do a 180 just because we had a different manager. that's the only reason we're not the best team in baseball?

Sufferin
07-10-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i think its so ridiculous that everyone thinks we could do a 180 just because we had a different manager. that's the only reason we're not the best team in baseball?

No, he's the only reason we're not leading the division. They don't have the talent to be the best team in baseball but they're certainly the class of the division. This clown screws around so much he somehow manages to put a lineup together that scores a run a game against the friggin Tigers!

Hey Jerry, Frank hits 50 points higher when he's playing 1st! Why the **** do you keep putting him at DH? Better defense my ass, the only things Frank sucks at are throwing to 2nd and popups. How many times a game does a 1st baseman have to do either of these things?

I really don't think he'll be fired though, unfortunately.

guillen4life13
07-10-2003, 06:24 PM
Someone named Jeff Torborg was fired not too long ago. (hint hint Kenny!!)

jeremyb1
07-10-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Sufferin
No, he's the only reason we're not leading the division. They don't have the talent to be the best team in baseball but they're certainly the class of the division. This clown screws around so much he somehow manages to put a lineup together that scores a run a game against the friggin Tigers!

Hey Jerry, Frank hits 50 points higher when he's playing 1st! Why the **** do you keep putting him at DH? Better defense my ass, the only things Frank sucks at are throwing to 2nd and popups. How many times a game does a 1st baseman have to do either of these things?

I really don't think he'll be fired though, unfortunately.

i agree with you manuel is far from perfect he certainly makes mistakes such as putting frank at dh. there are certainly things i'd do things different but to argue that manuel is solely responsible for an offense that was the 3rd best in baseball last season yet has completely collapsed this season and was only able to score three runs in three games against one of the worst teams in baseball is asanine.

if you were really worried about the team, you'd be asking what else was wrong because no one factor such as the manager can make an offense fall apart like this. manuel was the manager in the past when we hit well, right? he also seems to recognize that the problem is our plate discipline from some of his recent quotes so i don't see how he's the only one to blame.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2003, 10:06 PM
When Manager Gandhi gets fires this Fall I'm going to have a long, cold beer and laugh at him and all his myopic supporters.

Then I'm going to start worrying because we are going to get stuck with another inexperienced, cheaply paid flunky who is going to have to learn on the job following in the brilliant footsteps of Gene Lamont, Terry Bevington and Manager Gandhi.

Lip

gosox41
07-10-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
KW has shown the guts to make big moves. The question is will JR let him spend the money to attract the best manager possible. The answer to that is probably "no".

Don't forget, KW has also shown the supidity to mess up the big moves.

Bob

gosox41
07-10-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
When Manager Gandhi gets fires this Fall I'm going to have a long, cold beer and laugh at him and all his myopic supporters.

Then I'm going to start worrying because we are going to get stuck with another inexperienced, cheaply paid flunky who is going to have to learn on the job following in the brilliant footsteps of Gene Lamont, Terry Bevington and Manager Gandhi.

Lip

Where are all those Manuel supporters that were here last week?

Here's an idea Manuel, why not move Ordonez to 8th in the lineup to get more production out of the bottom of the order.

Bob

jeremyb1
07-10-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
When Manager Gandhi gets fires this Fall I'm going to have a long, cold beer and laugh at him and all his myopic supporters.

Then I'm going to start worrying because we are going to get stuck with another inexperienced, cheaply paid flunky who is going to have to learn on the job following in the brilliant footsteps of Gene Lamont, Terry Bevington and Manager Gandhi.

Lip

its not really an issue of support though in my opinion. its the people that are being naive about the effects of a managerial change compared to those that are aware of manuel's faults but simply realize there is a lot more wrong with this club than the manager.

FoulTerritory
07-10-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i agree with you manuel is far from perfect he certainly makes mistakes such as putting frank at dh. there are certainly things i'd do things different but to argue that manuel is solely responsible for an offense that was the 3rd best in baseball last season yet has completely collapsed this season and was only able to score three runs in three games against one of the worst teams in baseball is asanine.

if you were really worried about the team, you'd be asking what else was wrong because no one factor such as the manager can make an offense fall apart like this. manuel was the manager in the past when we hit well, right? he also seems to recognize that the problem is our plate discipline from some of his recent quotes so i don't see how he's the only one to blame.

Some thoughts on this . . .

I don't see people here arguing that Maneul is "solely" responsible for the sox problems. But we all see him as partially responsible, and that "part" needs to be ousted. I agree that Manuel has managed us into 5-10 losses that 90% of the managers in baseball would not have messed up. Just because this team has other flaws (defense, bunting for example) doesn't mean that Manuel is not also a flaw, and a damned critical one at that.

I mean, Sox fans aren't Cub fans, we don't think there are magical cures and that one aspect is responsible for all problems. We can think some, and realize that this team has quite a few problems, but we also realize that Manuel is one of those glaring problems, and that taking steps to rectify our managerial problem would likely be a step in the right direction.

gosox41
07-10-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
Some thoughts on this . . .

I don't see people here arguing that Maneul is "solely" responsible for the sox problems. But we all see him as partially responsible, and that "part" needs to be ousted. I agree that Manuel has managed us into 5-10 losses that 90% of the managers in baseball would not have messed up. Just because this team has other flaws (defense, bunting for example) doesn't mean that Manuel is not also a flaw, and a damned critical one at that.

I mean, Sox fans aren't Cub fans, we don't think there are magical cures and that one aspect is responsible for all problems. We can think some, and realize that this team has quite a few problems, but we also realize that Manuel is one of those glaring problems, and that taking steps to rectify our managerial problem would likely be a step in the right direction.

Here's something for Jerry to think about. The Sox two most productinve hitters this year are Frank and Magglio. They both consistently bat 3 and 4 in the order (except for a few select times.) That is their role on the team. Is it coindicence that there more proctive then guys sitting 3 games a week or batting 2nd, then 7th or whatever?

Bob

Jerko
07-10-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Here's something for Jerry to think about. The Sox two most productinve hitters this year are Frank and Magglio. They both consistently bat 3 and 4 in the order (except for a few select times.) That is their role on the team. Is it coindicence that there more proctive then guys sitting 3 games a week or batting 2nd, then 7th or whatever?

Bob

It's been that way for 3 years now my friend. We have nothing more than a little league manager here. He can watch somebody hit 100000 homers in a row, but on the 100001st at bat, when we need one run to tie, he'd pull the guy and say "well, he's 100000 for 100000 with 100000 home runs, but after seeing him for the 100000th time, they might get him out. I know that is extreme, but I just go back to that game last year vs. the Yanks, Clemons v. Buehrle, Sox up 4-1, and out comes JM to yank Buehrle because 'it was the 4th time through the order coming up, and it will be hard to hold them to only 3 hits'. So it did not MATTER that it was already 4-1 and he had already gotten these guys out, he changed pitchers because of what he THOUGHT might happen instead basing a decision on what was actually going on right in front of his face. The man is inept at best and that's being nice.

jeremyb1
07-11-2003, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
Some thoughts on this . . .

I don't see people here arguing that Maneul is "solely" responsible for the sox problems. But we all see him as partially responsible, and that "part" needs to be ousted. I agree that Manuel has managed us into 5-10 losses that 90% of the managers in baseball would not have messed up. Just because this team has other flaws (defense, bunting for example) doesn't mean that Manuel is not also a flaw, and a damned critical one at that.

I mean, Sox fans aren't Cub fans, we don't think there are magical cures and that one aspect is responsible for all problems. We can think some, and realize that this team has quite a few problems, but we also realize that Manuel is one of those glaring problems, and that taking steps to rectify our managerial problem would likely be a step in the right direction.

i agree that the team could be better with a different manager. i think that managing a team into 10 losses or about one out of every 8 games is a nearly impossibly high amount. while i'll leave open the possibility manuel is a sizable part of the problem, the offense is certainly a much much larger problem.

blaming manuel for the offense seems to be a popular argument but he was the manager when we had one of the best offenses in baseball the past few seasons. entering a season when we were expected to have one of the five best offenses in baseball and have instead been one of the three worst by a longshot all season long and then claming the manager deserves the majority of the blame is a huge copout if you ask me.

how is manuel to blame for konerko hitting .180 instead of .300? how is manuel to blame for crede being one of the two or three worst regulars in all of baseball? how is manuel responsible for rowand's offseason injury and subsequent awful start at the plate? the only hitter's performance i feel manuel is somewhat to blame for is carlos. carlos has been a huge disapointment this season because he simply refuses to take pitches and hit the ball the other way. he needs to be benched until he agrees to refine his approach at the plate.

FoulTerritory
07-11-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i agree that the team could be better with a different manager. i think that managing a team into 10 losses or about one out of every 8 games is a nearly impossibly high amount. while i'll leave open the possibility manuel is a sizable part of the problem, the offense is certainly a much much larger problem.

blaming manuel for the offense seems to be a popular argument but he was the manager when we had one of the best offenses in baseball the past few seasons. entering a season when we were expected to have one of the five best offenses in baseball and have instead been one of the three worst by a longshot all season long and then claming the manager deserves the majority of the blame is a huge copout if you ask me.

how is manuel to blame for konerko hitting .180 instead of .300? how is manuel to blame for crede being one of the two or three worst regulars in all of baseball? how is manuel responsible for rowand's offseason injury and subsequent awful start at the plate? the only hitter's performance i feel manuel is somewhat to blame for is carlos. carlos has been a huge disapointment this season because he simply refuses to take pitches and hit the ball the other way. he needs to be benched until he agrees to refine his approach at the plate.

ok, so the offense AND Manuel are "sizable" problems. But we can't change the whole offense in one fell swoop, but we can get a new manager immediately. So why not take that step? Thats all I'm saying. Just because there are other major problems, doesn't mean we shouldn't fix this one as soon as possible. If you can fix some problems now, then do it, and the ones you have to fix gradually . . . fix them gradually. But Manuel can be replaced by tomorrow if KW deems it, so lets get it done.

kempsted
07-11-2003, 12:56 AM
Here's an idea Manuel, why not move Ordonez to 8th in the lineup to get more production out of the bottom of the order.

Bob

You joke but he has Valenitn who has been one of their top hitters of late batting 8th in the last two games.

kempsted
07-11-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i agree that the team could be better with a different manager. i think that managing a team into 10 losses or about one out of every 8 games is a nearly impossibly high amount. while i'll leave open the possibility manuel is a sizable part of the problem, the offense is certainly a much much larger problem.

blaming manuel for the offense seems to be a popular argument but he was the manager when we had one of the best offenses in baseball the past few seasons. entering a season when we were expected to have one of the five best offenses in baseball and have instead been one of the three worst by a longshot all season long and then claming the manager deserves the majority of the blame is a huge copout if you ask me.

how is manuel to blame for konerko hitting .180 instead of .300? how is manuel to blame for crede being one of the two or three worst regulars in all of baseball? how is manuel responsible for rowand's offseason injury and subsequent awful start at the plate? the only hitter's performance i feel manuel is somewhat to blame for is carlos. carlos has been a huge disapointment this season because he simply refuses to take pitches and hit the ball the other way. he needs to be benched until he agrees to refine his approach at the plate.

Ahhh. He was the manager in 2000. But keep in mind - anyone can win as manager if the team is hitting a lot of home runs. Even he can win if they are hitting home runs. A GOOD manager though is one that can get some runs when the team isn't hitting it out of the park. So yes. A team with this line up way underproducing in number of runs is at least in part the fault of the manager.

Manuel is bad at (1) managing the line up (2) Running the offense (3) Managing the pitchers. Hmmm I guess he is great other than that.

captain54
07-11-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1


blaming manuel for the offense seems to be a popular argument but he was the manager when we had one of the best offenses in baseball the past few seasons. entering a season when we were expected to have one of the five best offenses in baseball and have instead been one of the three worst by a longshot all season long and then claming the manager deserves the majority of the blame is a huge copout if you ask me.



Jerry Manuel has been manager now since the late 90's and we have absolutely nothing to show for it, except one great first half of baseball in 2000 when two pitchers were pitching lights out, and the Sox took advantage of some beat up teams while banging the ball out of the park....

all of the Sox previous big offensive numbers the last few years were based on homeruns....now it has dried up and Manuel is exposed for what he is...leader of a fundamentally unsound baseball team that no longer can rely on the long ball....

if you can't blame the manager for a team underachieving, then why have a manager??? just set up a laptop in the dugout....

jeremyb1
07-11-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
Ahhh. He was the manager in 2000. But keep in mind - anyone can win as manager if the team is hitting a lot of home runs. Even he can win if they are hitting home runs. A GOOD manager though is one that can get some runs when the team isn't hitting it out of the park. So yes. A team with this line up way underproducing in number of runs is at least in part the fault of the manager.

Manuel is bad at (1) managing the line up (2) Running the offense (3) Managing the pitchers. Hmmm I guess he is great other than that.

manuel was not only the manager in '00, he was the manager last season when with a very similar lineup we scored the third most runs in baseball. what did he do last year that allowed the offense to flourish? what is he doing this year he didn't do last season that is crushing our offensive potential.

as far as your other criticisms go you'll have to point out to me the part of my post where i claim manuel 1) is a great manager 2) should without a doubt keep his job.

jeremyb1
07-11-2003, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by captain54
Jerry Manuel has been manager now since the late 90's and we have absolutely nothing to show for it, except one great first half of baseball in 2000 when two pitchers were pitching lights out, and the Sox took advantage of some beat up teams while banging the ball out of the park....

all of the Sox previous big offensive numbers the last few years were based on homeruns....now it has dried up and Manuel is exposed for what he is...leader of a fundamentally unsound baseball team that no longer can rely on the long ball....

if you can't blame the manager for a team underachieving, then why have a manager??? just set up a laptop in the dugout....

haha. at least we've figured out what the manager's job is, to take all the blame when the team underachieves regardless of where the actual problem is. do you really think if we fire manuel tommorow this team will magically transform into the 95 win club most envisioned overnight? that konerko's will get hot, crede will learn to walk, and carlos will hit the ball the other way instead of trying to hit home runs every at bat?

this claim about homeruns is ridiculous. first of all, this team is hitting a lot of homeruns i believe we rank in the top 5 or 6 in the al. second of all, homeruns are a valid way of scoring runs. you're going to tell me that if our homerun totals were cut in half from previous seasons that shouldn't be a problem? with a good manager we should score just as many runs? that's insane. if in fact the reason we dropped from third to 27th in runs scored this season is because we don't hit home runs anymore that is a huge problem that is not directly tied to manuel in my opinion and should certainly be addressed.

the notion that a good manager can win 90+ games without scoring runs is completely nonsensical. there's a direct correlation between runs allowed, runs scored, and wins. to suggest a good manager wins games regardless of whether or not his team hits well is insane.

gosox41
07-11-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
It's been that way for 3 years now my friend. We have nothing more than a little league manager here. He can watch somebody hit 100000 homers in a row, but on the 100001st at bat, when we need one run to tie, he'd pull the guy and say "well, he's 100000 for 100000 with 100000 home runs, but after seeing him for the 100000th time, they might get him out. I know that is extreme, but I just go back to that game last year vs. the Yanks, Clemons v. Buehrle, Sox up 4-1, and out comes JM to yank Buehrle because 'it was the 4th time through the order coming up, and it will be hard to hold them to only 3 hits'. So it did not MATTER that it was already 4-1 and he had already gotten these guys out, he changed pitchers because of what he THOUGHT might happen instead basing a decision on what was actually going on right in front of his face. The man is inept at best and that's being nice.

I remember that game. And they very next night al his logic for pulling his best pitcher went out the window and he left Jon Garland in for the 8th and 9th innings to give up a lead. Personally, I would have left both guys stay in, even with the advantage of hindsight. Sure Garland got hurt, be he was pitching great. But if JM want to believe in the 4th time through the batting order crap, then he should leave his best pitcher (Buehrle) in and pull Garland early, not the opposite.

Bob

gosox41
07-11-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
ok, so the offense AND Manuel are "sizable" problems. But we can't change the whole offense in one fell swoop, but we can get a new manager immediately. So why not take that step? Thats all I'm saying. Just because there are other major problems, doesn't mean we shouldn't fix this one as soon as possible. If you can fix some problems now, then do it, and the ones you have to fix gradually . . . fix them gradually. But Manuel can be replaced by tomorrow if KW deems it, so lets get it done.

I believe that if the manager stuck with one consistent line up (or 2 one for lefties and one for righties) then this offense would be better. May not be the best int he league, but this team is hitting .243 as a team. It's not all Crede or Rowand's fault. Let the players get in a groove. Show faith in playing your best hitters in big games even though they're 0-4 agains then in their careers. How's that a fair sample size?

Bob

gosox41
07-11-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by captain54
Jerry Manuel has been manager now since the late 90's and we have absolutely nothing to show for it, except one great first half of baseball in 2000 when two pitchers were pitching lights out, and the Sox took advantage of some beat up teams while banging the ball out of the park....

all of the Sox previous big offensive numbers the last few years were based on homeruns....now it has dried up and Manuel is exposed for what he is...leader of a fundamentally unsound baseball team that no longer can rely on the long ball....

if you can't blame the manager for a team underachieving, then why have a manager??? just set up a laptop in the dugout....

Wow, you sound exactly like me. I suggested that in a post about 2 moths ago. It's good to see that I'm not the only one who thinks like this.

Bob

gosox41
07-11-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
manuel was not only the manager in '00, he was the manager last season when with a very similar lineup we scored the third most runs in baseball. what did he do last year that allowed the offense to flourish? what is he doing this year he didn't do last season that is crushing our offensive potential.

as far as your other criticisms go you'll have to point out to me the part of my post where i claim manuel 1) is a great manager 2) should without a doubt keep his job.

If you look back over the last 2 1/2 years there is a correlation to tinkering and the team not hitting. As JM tinkers more, the team scores less. Remembe 2001 when Julio Ramirez was here? Last year's team slumps after the Yankees swept us. It wasn't until mid-August that htey started scoring a ton of runs. It was because JM put out a pretty consistent lineup and let it ride.

Bob

kempsted
07-11-2003, 10:49 AM
this claim about homeruns is ridiculous. first of all, this team is hitting a lot of homeruns i believe we rank in the top 5 or 6 in the al. second of all, homeruns are a valid way of scoring runs. you're going to tell me that if our homerun totals were cut in half from previous seasons that shouldn't be a problem? with a good manager we should score just as many runs? that's insane. if in fact the reason we dropped from third to 27th in runs scored this season is because we don't hit home runs anymore that is a huge problem that is not directly tied to manuel in my opinion and should certainly be addressed.

You are correct. Homeruns are a valid way of scoring. But you don't need a manager when the team is hitting homeruns consistently. The fact is the Sox win when they have multi-home run games. They are 20 -7 in multi homerun games. So in 90 games they have scored more than one home run in 27. So 63 games they have scored one or fewer homeruns. They have won 23 of those games. 23 - 40 in games they don't score at least two home runs.

So is it the managers fault that they are not scoring home runs? No. But when a team is not hitting homeruns that is where the manager is most crucial and he has shown nothing. The home run argument started because people wanted to bring out Manuel's success. But those have always been when we have hit lots of home runs.

Sufferin
07-11-2003, 05:15 PM
I'm actually of the thinking tha tyou shoud change mangers/coaches as little as possibl ein sports. Hoever that's assuming the guy is at least somewhat competent. Manuel seems like a very nic eguy and all, but he's not getting the most out of his players.

I hold hikm largely responsible for thier offensive malaise. Why? Because there's no repercussions if they don't go about theri business properly. Our tema can't bunt, hit and run or run the bases as well as a little eague team. These are professional players and they should be expected to know the fundamentals. I fhtey don't they should be fined and /or benched. At the very least they should get an earful. Ghandi just sits there and does nothign, I swear it's like he's afraid of his own players.

During a long season athletes need an occasional kick in the arse, and he doesn't give it to them. Add this top the already stated juggling of the lineup, DH ing Frank, and the strange insistence on tryong to make Graffanino n everyday player and he's too blame.

When a team's no hitting like they should you have to resort to hit and run, bunt, stealing bases and this joker does none of this.

Don't even get me started onhis handling of the pitchers. What do you think it does to a guiy's attitude when he pitches his heart out for 6 inning to keep the team in a 1-0 game then he gets yanewkd after an infield hit? Or he's cruising along in a 6-0 game and he gets pulled after 8 so a reliever can "get some work".

He's just a BAD manager who I feel has already cost us 10 games this year if not more.

Put the same 9 guys out there for 1 week straight and you'd be amazed at the sudden offense. Anyone else think it's no coincidence the hitting went into the tank the day Everett and R. Alomar joined the club? (Yes I know this isnt' Manuel's fault, but it illustrates the effect changing a lineup can have)

jeremyb1
07-11-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
If you look back over the last 2 1/2 years there is a correlation to tinkering and the team not hitting. As JM tinkers more, the team scores less. Remembe 2001 when Julio Ramirez was here? Last year's team slumps after the Yankees swept us. It wasn't until mid-August that htey started scoring a ton of runs. It was because JM put out a pretty consistent lineup and let it ride.

first of all, i'm not entirely sure that you're accurate in your accounts of manuel's tinkering. if you're annoyed by how often he switches the lineup to begin with you'll undoubtedly associate tinkering with losses. i totally disagree that manuel tinkered less at the end of last season than he did in june and july last season. he was tinkering far more at the end of the season because we were trying to get a look at young players for next season. jimenez played games at ss as well as second while harris played in cf and at second. olivo and mj both got a fair amount of playing time in september. there were a lot of guys who weren't in the lineup every day.

regardless of whether or not manuel's tinkering adversely affects the club, to argue that it has played more than a small role in this team going from one of the best offensive clubs in baseball to the worst makes no sense. i'm not sure you realize what a massive dropoff in production our offense has experienced from last season. to blame more than a very small part of that dropoff on tinkering would be ridiculous. there's no way manuel can transform one of the best hitting teams in baseball to a team hitting .243 because jose is not sure whether he's hitting second or 6th on a given night.