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Jjav829
07-09-2003, 10:36 PM
This season is over! Write it down! Today, July 9th 2003, I am declaring the season officially over. The Sox will not make the playoffs. I for one will not fall into their trap again. I had them all but written them off and then they put together a nice streak and made 2 trades and I was optimistic again. But I've had it with them. I don't care if they win tomorrow or the next day or the next day. When they really need to step up and play, they won't.

This is NOT Jerry Manuel's fault. You can blame his tinkering all you want, but the bottom line is that Manuel is NOT hitting. You can give me all that bull**** about Manuel not motivating them and blah blah blah. These are professional hitters. They should not need a manager to get them motivated. If an embarrassing loss to the Tigers like the one on Tuesday or losing 2 out of 3 to the Drays doesn't get you motivated to win the next day, nothing will!! Not Manuel giving some rah-rah speech. Nothing. Whats he going to say? "Hey guys, why don't you try hitting" "O thanks, Jerry, we hadn't thought of that! Good suggestion!" You can blame Jerry all you want, but if this team is truly as good as we thought they were, no manager in the world can be bad enough to make them play this bad. The reason a team plays like this, is because they are a bad team. And that is the reason this team SUCKS! You think the Tigers are bad, the Sox are worse! The Tigers have an excuse, they have a lack of talent. The Sox don't. These are all players who have performed well in the past.

I've had it. KW can white flag it for all I care right now. This team won't do crap.

:angry: :angry:

Jerry_Manuel
07-09-2003, 10:51 PM
Bravo.

Someone with a clue.

Kilroy
07-09-2003, 10:57 PM
Let's make an official list of all those who jump off the bandwagon, so that when they try to jump back on, we can haze the **** out of them...

dzipio
07-09-2003, 10:59 PM
At the beginning of the season I thought this team couldn't win because it had no heart. Then I thought "maybe!" Now, I don't know. What the hell is wrong with these bozos? 3 runs against the Tigers? No heart! None! :angry: :angry:

oheeoh...magglio
07-09-2003, 11:09 PM
i honestly don't know what's worng with this team. I know they have talent, and a manager can't lose games by himself. I think this is a team effort, they just don't get up to play teams that sucks and it's really a awful sight to see. This team has a golden opportunity to jump up and win this division, and if they don't get their act togther soon, they will have no chance. It's not over yet, but come on guys time is running out!!!

duke of dorwood
07-09-2003, 11:12 PM
Its not a winning team. We had a great 12 games. Even the worst teams have at least one streak like that a year. That was ours. And now back to your regularly scheduled bad season.

IronFisk
07-09-2003, 11:13 PM
Sure...blame the ballplayers who have to succumb to Jerry-boy's constant shuffling. I'm sorry, but that's what's killing us...point blank! He can't manage worth a damn since good managing takes some COMMON SENSE which he s$%tcans in lieu of the "precentages". BARF!

Somebody get out the record books...why can't this chump field a better than .500 team year after year. This is same crap I've seennow since 01, with us getting to the break-even mark, just to tread water until the end. How can any of those players ever get into a groove?!?! I'm sorry, but if Jerry can't manage from the heart once in a while, we are simply DOOMED to repeat the same crap.

As Christ himself said...either be hot or cold....but you are lukewarm...i SPIT you from out of my mouth!

AMEN! :angry:

oheeoh...magglio
07-09-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by IronFisk
Sure...blame the ballplayers who have to succumb to Jerry-boy's constant shuffling. I'm sorry, but that's what's killing us...point blank! He can't manage worth a damn since good managing takes some COMMON SENSE which he s$%tcans in lieu of the "precentages". BARF!

Somebody get out the record books...why can't this chump field a better than .500 team year after year. This is same crap I've seennow since 01, with us getting to the break-even mark, just to tread water until the end. How can any of those players ever get into a groove?!?! I'm sorry, but if Jerry can't manage from the heart once in a while, we are simply DOOMED to repeat the same crap.

As Christ himself said...either be hot or cold....but you are lukewarm...i SPIT you from out of my mouth!

AMEN! :angry:

quoting christ himself and comparing it to the white sox and the inadequacies of our manager is a bit rash, but you have the right idea :)

JJAustin69
07-09-2003, 11:21 PM
I agree, this is an absolute disgrace! There is no way a team with any self respect loses two straight series to two of the worst teams in the league. What the %$#@ is the matter with these guys! DETROIT!!!! This is freakin' DETROIT!! They couldn't play .500 ball in AAA and they are handing us our @#$!!!! I am completely and utterly outraged. :chunks

oheeoh...magglio
07-09-2003, 11:25 PM
:jerry

"come on guys! all of our very talented players are getting time on the field, and although this prevents us from rhythm and consistency, everyone gets their playing time and none of the parents complain and isn't that all that matters??"

this guy sucks!!!!! maybe he isn't the reason for ALL of our faults, but he is the worst manager in baseball, i will honsetly start to miss bevington at this rate.... :angry:

spanishwhite
07-09-2003, 11:27 PM
that picture is hilarious!

Jerko
07-09-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
This season is over! Write it down! Today, July 9th 2003, I am declaring the season officially over. The Sox will not make the playoffs. I for one will not fall into their trap again. I had them all but written them off and then they put together a nice streak and made 2 trades and I was optimistic again. But I've had it with them. I don't care if they win tomorrow or the next day or the next day. When they really need to step up and play, they won't.

This is NOT Jerry Manuel's fault. You can blame his tinkering all you want, but the bottom line is that Manuel is NOT hitting. You can give me all that bull**** about Manuel not motivating them and blah blah blah. These are professional hitters. They should not need a manager to get them motivated. If an embarrassing loss to the Tigers like the one on Tuesday or losing 2 out of 3 to the Drays doesn't get you motivated to win the next day, nothing will!! Not Manuel giving some rah-rah speech. Nothing. Whats he going to say? "Hey guys, why don't you try hitting" "O thanks, Jerry, we hadn't thought of that! Good suggestion!" You can blame Jerry all you want, but if this team is truly as good as we thought they were, no manager in the world can be bad enough to make them play this bad. The reason a team plays like this, is because they are a bad team. And that is the reason this team SUCKS! You think the Tigers are bad, the Sox are worse! The Tigers have an excuse, they have a lack of talent. The Sox don't. These are all players who have performed well in the past.

I've had it. KW can white flag it for all I care right now. This team won't do crap.

:angry: :angry:




Why do people insist on using that bull crap "Manuel did not go 0-4 tonight" crap argument to defend him? Does that mean since Detroit won that their manager had a few hits? Come on. I am not just using tonight's game as a measuring stick. The man is not a good manager, plain and simple. There have been many many different players on this team since 2000 and yet they look EXACTLY the same as they have since they lost in the playoffs. You're right, Manuel does not play for the White Sox, but can you honestly say that he is a good manager? I agree, Manuel learns from his mistakes, but usually after he makes the same one 30 times. HE sets the lineups, HE messes up with his pitching moves, etc. Just please PLEASE quit using the lame ass "Manuel wasn't 0-4 tonight, or Manuel didn't pitch tonight". Also, if Manuel is not to blame for this team's lack of "heart", I don't want to hear anybody praise him because "he gets his team up to play the Cubs". Well, you can't have it both ways. If it's not his job to motivate the team when they are playing Detroit, he should not get credit that they were motivated vs. the Cubs. The only reason they were motivated vs. Min was because they were still on a Cub high. I admit, it's not Manuel's fault it rained, it's not Manuel's fault that the upper deck is too high, he is not the cause of the world's problems. That doesn't make him a good manager. I am NOT absolving the players either, don't get me wrong, but how many different players have we had since 2000? A lot. There have been many different players on the roster the last few years to blame this on ALL of them when the ONE consistent factor is Manuel.

Jjav829
07-10-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Let's make an official list of all those who jump off the bandwagon, so that when they try to jump back on, we can haze the **** out of them...

Go ahead. Maybe to save yourself some time, you can just make a list of those still left on the bandwagon. It would probably go quicker. Or you can just continue to tell yourself that this team has a chance. Hell, maybe if you say it enough times, you'll actually begin to believe it. Me though, I'm gonna be realistic. I am tired of watching this team play down to their competition. That's not what good teams do. This team is now 6-5 on the season against the absolute worst team in baseball and one of the worst of all time. KC on the other hand is 8-1 against the same team. Theres your difference. So go ahead and make your little list, and if the Sox make the playoffs you can start a thread devoted to ripping me and anyone else who you want to rip for jumping off the Sox bandwagon. Hell, I'll even start the thread for you. But for some reason I don't that thread will be started.

Jjav829
07-10-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Why do people insist on using that bull crap "Manuel did not go 0-4 tonight" crap argument to defend him? Does that mean since Detroit won that their manager had a few hits? Come on. I am not just using tonight's game as a measuring stick. The man is not a good manager, plain and simple. There have been many many different players on this team since 2000 and yet they look EXACTLY the same as they have since they lost in the playoffs. You're right, Manuel does not play for the White Sox, but can you honestly say that he is a good manager? I agree, Manuel learns from his mistakes, but usually after he makes the same one 30 times. HE sets the lineups, HE messes up with his pitching moves, etc. Just please PLEASE quit using the lame ass "Manuel wasn't 0-4 tonight, or Manuel didn't pitch tonight". Also, if Manuel is not to blame for this team's lack of "heart", I don't want to hear anybody praise him because "he gets his team up to play the Cubs". Well, you can't have it both ways. If it's not his job to motivate the team when they are playing Detroit, he should not get credit that they were motivated vs. the Cubs. The only reason they were motivated vs. Min was because they were still on a Cub high. I admit, it's not Manuel's fault it rained, it's not Manuel's fault that the upper deck is too high, he is not the cause of the world's problems. That doesn't make him a good manager. I am NOT absolving the players either, don't get me wrong, but how many different players have we had since 2000? A lot. There have been many different players on the roster the last few years to blame this on ALL of them when the ONE consistent factor is Manuel.

No he is not a good manager. Believe me, I am not defending Manuel. I want him gone as well, but this is simply not his fault. A manager can only do so much and especially in baseball. This isn't football where you can blame a coach for calling a bad game. A manager doesn't have that great of a role in baseball. There is no designed play. The hitter simply has to hit. Sure you can blame him if you feel he doesn't put on steals or hit-and-runs enough, but there is only one person to blame for hitters not hitting, and thats the hitters themselves. I've never credited Manuel for getting the players up for the games against the Cubs. The players do that themselves. In fact, thats probably the only series they actually get excited about playing. If they were that enthused about every game, we wouldn't be looking at a team 3 games under .500. As for 2000, it was a fluke. We had a lot of players having career years and it all fell apart in the playoffs. Manuel did nothing special that year. He was manager of the year because he got lucky that guys like Eldred, Baldwin, and Valentin had career years.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2003, 12:20 AM
Jjava:

Touche' VERY WELL SAID. Some of us have basically suffered through this crap for decades. It DOES gets old!

Lip

Konerkoholic
07-10-2003, 12:46 AM
Yeah, Jjava that last one was one of the best posts I have ever read. You can blame Jerry for some things, but the players have to do their damn jobs.

Jerko
07-10-2003, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
No he is not a good manager. Believe me, I am not defending Manuel. I want him gone as well, but this is simply not his fault. A manager can only do so much and especially in baseball. This isn't football where you can blame a coach for calling a bad game. A manager doesn't have that great of a role in baseball. There is no designed play. The hitter simply has to hit. Sure you can blame him if you feel he doesn't put on steals or hit-and-runs enough, but there is only one person to blame for hitters not hitting, and thats the hitters themselves. I've never credited Manuel for getting the players up for the games against the Cubs. The players do that themselves. In fact, thats probably the only series they actually get excited about playing. If they were that enthused about every game, we wouldn't be looking at a team 3 games under .500. As for 2000, it was a fluke. We had a lot of players having career years and it all fell apart in the playoffs. Manuel did nothing special that year. He was manager of the year because he got lucky that guys like Eldred, Baldwin, and Valentin had career years.



Good points all, but if you have a bad hitting team, you kind of probably have to steal or hit and run every now and then instead of just standing there watching double play after double play. Maybe a few more hit and runs would result in a few less games with 4 GIDPs. The main point I was trying to make is that people ignore the mistakes JM makes with the line "Manuel doesn't hit for us." I hate that. The Yankees are in first, is Joe Torre batting .350? No, but his cleanup hitters know how to bunt and his subs know how to run the bases. Why don't ours? Not everything is Manuel's fault, but I really think ignoring his mistakes by saying he didn't go 0-4 is shortsighed at best. How can he hold his players accountable for their lack of hitting when nobody holds him accountable for all the bad moves he makes? That's the problem.

pudge
07-10-2003, 01:00 AM
Who is to blame for this being such a terrible hitting team? Greg Walker? I mean, none of our hitters like to walk... NONE. You cannot beat anybody when you NEVER walk. When the count is 2-0 and you get a pitch out of the zone, DON'T SWING. Damn it all to hell, I've never seen so much excitement get sucked away so fast. I thought the Minnesota sweep combined with the two trades was one of the best moments of my 20+ year career as a Sox fan, and now we're back to sucking a$$.

NewyorkSoxFan
07-10-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by pudge
Who is to blame for this being such a terrible hitting team? Greg Walker? I mean, none of our hitters like to walk... NONE. You cannot beat anybody when you NEVER walk. When the count is 2-0 and you get a pitch out of the zone, DON'T SWING. Damn it all to hell, I've never seen so much excitement get sucked away so fast. I thought the Minnesota sweep combined with the two trades was one of the best moments of my 20+ year career as a Sox fan, and now we're back to sucking a$$.

Absolutely, this team has no discipline at the plate at all. And we added another one in Everett who is always 0-2 1-2, swinging at everything. If I blame JM for anything its that he treats these guys like veterans when he shouldn't. How many times do our hitters have a 3-1 or 3-0 count and foul out or swing at balls out of the zone, when we are down 2 or 3 runs? Its ridiculous, we must have the dumbest team in baseball.

Last nite man on 2nd nobody out, Sandy strikes out, I mean put the ball in play or bunt if you feel like you can't, take it upon yourself. Has JM hurt the team with his tinkering? Absolutely, but these guys are all or nothing they either hit 4 HRs or they ground into 4 DP's. If they don't win this season I blow up this entire lineup. Keep the pitching and get a new offensive philosophy. Players that give themself up and move runners, don't get thrown out making dumb baserunning plays those are the players we need, not guys trying to hit 40 hrs every year.

NYSF

soxfan45
07-10-2003, 09:27 AM
Although I also cannot blame Jerry for lack of hitting, what I can do is blame him for not riding these guys for having lousy at-bats and absolutly no clue as to the concept of situational hitting. I think NYSoxfan said it well, what the hell is Sandy Alomar doing swinging wildly at 3 pitches for the K when he should be bunting with such a cold hitting team. MANUFACTURE RUNS!!!!!! Then his brother takes a 3-1 count to a wild pitcher and swings at a few balls and also Ks.

We have no discipline at the plate and there are no consequences for having bad mental approaches. Face it, Frank wants to jack everything as well.

I share your pessimism after watching these guys and assessing their chances to go anywhere. All a team needs to do is bring up a AAA pitcher and we are dead meat.

It seems like Walker and Manuel should have a talk with each of these guys before they take an at bat and explain and agree upon an approach.

SpringfldFan
07-10-2003, 09:49 AM
I like what Jerko had to say. He made a very good point that I had been about to post myself - the fact that the only common denominator in the last three disappointing seasons has been Jerry Manuel. How can waves of promising players continue to cycle through the Sox roster and yet it always amounts to the same undisciplined, selfish, and lackluster effort? At least the on field manager is one possible explanation. Other than that, nobody has any answer as to why the players underachieve as soon as they put silver and black on. The repeating problems among every lineup the sox puts on the field are far to prevalent to be just coincidences of bad luck. There has to be a reason other than "they all happen to be sucking at the same time the same way, again and again year after year..."

I think Hawk hit it pretty close in the Tampa series. He mentioned that no matter what talent a Pinella team puts on the field, you can be sure they will play hard every game and every play - or they won't be playing under him for long. If you put that kind of accountability on the shoulders of a team with any kind of talent you have a gold mine, I guarantee it.

xil357
07-10-2003, 10:12 AM
There is plenty of blame to go around:

Virtually every hitter is hitting below their career averages, including Frank.
BLAME THE PLAYERS

Stupid base running and defensive miscues. Maybe this will subside now that Duh'Angelo is gone, although Lee deserves to feel some heat, too.
BLAME THE PLAYERS AND COACHES

Bad defense, especially up the middle. Alomar helps somewhat, but SS and CF still are glaring holes.
BLAME KW FOR ASSEMBLING A ROSTER OF TWO-TOED SLOTHS
BLAME REINSDORF FOR BEING SUCH A TIGHTWAD

Manuel constantly shuffling lineups and not having Frank at 1B, where even he now acknowledges what WE ALL HAVE KNOWN FOR A LONG TIME, that Frank hits better when he plays the field.
BLAME THE MANAGER

HOW DO YOU FIX IT?

Not by just firing the manager, because you still are left with a roster with too many DH / 1B / LF types: Konerko, Frank, Daubach, Lee, Everett; and the players still have to hit. There are three positions available with five players vying for time (sadly Everett is not a legit CF). This is where most of the needless tinkering happens. Platooning Sandy and Olivo is not tinkering. Getting Graffy some ABs when Crede and Valentin struggle is not tinkering.

I said it at the time and I will continue to say it, KW should have traded for Juan Pierre, who both could have batted lead-off, allowing Alomar to hit in his more natural 2 hole, and would have fixed the CF problem. At the same time, he should have placed Konerko on the DL. Then, Rowand could have been put in a role that better suits him: late inning corner OF defensive replacement, and Harris could have been the pinch-runner/backup 2B. Jerry then wouldn't dare remove Pierre from CF, and then he would only have to be convinced to have Daubach DH and put Frank at 1B. There would be a legitimate fielder at every position, and only three players would be confined to the three positions among DH, LF and 1B.

This doesn't absolve Jerry, who until a week ago I vigorously defended. This lineup tinkering has got to stop PRONTO. He needs to put his foot down and have Frank play 1B all the time, bench Konerko and DH Everett. He needs to expose KW for not filling the glaring hole in CF.

I believe he tinkers because he has lots of holes that he has to cover up, both in the lineup and on the field. Just because I understand his reasons doesn't mean I approve of it, though. If anything it covers KW's butt for not acquiring / developing players who play key positions (like CF and SS), and Reinsdorf's unwillingness to pay to fill those holes.

In conclusion, while the tinkering definitely hurts the team and probably has cost us victories in both Tampa Bay and Detroit, Manuel isn't the only one deserving blame.

bobj4400
07-10-2003, 10:28 AM
the bandwagon...


It has been the same song and dance with this team since the all star break in 2000. Basically, they have a been a .500 team since then. Anytime there are any expectations on this team, they go in the tank.

Think about it.

2000: they were supposed to be a year away from contending so there was no pressure on them to play well. They got hot for a 2 months, built an insurmountable lead on an Indians team that was on the verge of being broken up anyway, then in the second half when they were expected to play well, they cracked under the pressure and played .500 ball before being summarily whipped by the Mariners in three straight.

2001: David Wells is brought in to be the #1. The lineup is intact, and the Sox are the pick to win the central again. Pressure is on from day one. The Sox suck it up in the first half, effectively eliminating themselves from the playoffs by June. Then, the second half comes along and they are 15 games out. No more pressure. The Sox look like a playoff team in the second half, and finish a couple games above .500 for the season.

2002: Same story as 2001.

2003: Kenny makes a bunch of (seemingly) good trades in the offseason. The Sox look to be the class of the Central (which isnt saying much). They play with no sense of urgency and hover around 5-10 games under .500 until late June. Expectations are lowered and pressure comes off a bit. B/c the Central sucks, when they go on a mini-run, they get back in the race. Now they are back at .500 and the pressure mounts again. Time to lose 5 out of 6 to the Suck Rays and AAA Tigers.

I will not fall for this again. I am so fed up. This team is killing me slowly day by day.

SoxxoS
07-10-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
the bandwagon...


It has been the same song and dance with this team since the all star break in 2000. Basically, they have a been a .500 team since then. Anytime there are any expectations on this team, they go in the tank.

Think about it.

2000: they were supposed to be a year away from contending so there was no pressure on them to play well. They got hot for a 2 months, built an insurmountable lead on an Indians team that was on the verge of being broken up anyway, then in the second half when they were expected to play well, they cracked under the pressure and played .500 ball before being summarily whipped by the Mariners in three straight.

2001: David Wells is brought in to be the #1. The lineup is intact, and the Sox are the pick to win the central again. Pressure is on from day one. The Sox suck it up in the first half, effectively eliminating themselves from the playoffs by June. Then, the second half comes along and they are 15 games out. No more pressure. The Sox look like a playoff team in the second half, and finish a couple games above .500 for the season.

2002: Same story as 2001.

2003: Kenny makes a bunch of (seemingly) good trades in the offseason. The Sox look to be the class of the Central (which isnt saying much). They play with no sense of urgency and hover around 5-10 games under .500 until late June. Expectations are lowered and pressure comes off a bit. B/c the Central sucks, when they go on a mini-run, they get back in the race. Now they are back at .500 and the pressure mounts again. Time to lose 5 out of 6 to the Suck Rays and AAA Tigers.

I will not fall for this again. I am so fed up. This team is killing me slowly day by day.

That is part of being a fan, Bob.

Jerko
07-10-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
the bandwagon...


It has been the same song and dance with this team since the all star break in 2000. Basically, they have a been a .500 team since then. Anytime there are any expectations on this team, they go in the tank.

Think about it.

2000: they were supposed to be a year away from contending so there was no pressure on them to play well. They got hot for a 2 months, built an insurmountable lead on an Indians team that was on the verge of being broken up anyway, then in the second half when they were expected to play well, they cracked under the pressure and played .500 ball before being summarily whipped by the Mariners in three straight.

2001: David Wells is brought in to be the #1. The lineup is intact, and the Sox are the pick to win the central again. Pressure is on from day one. The Sox suck it up in the first half, effectively eliminating themselves from the playoffs by June. Then, the second half comes along and they are 15 games out. No more pressure. The Sox look like a playoff team in the second half, and finish a couple games above .500 for the season.

2002: Same story as 2001.

2003: Kenny makes a bunch of (seemingly) good trades in the offseason. The Sox look to be the class of the Central (which isnt saying much). They play with no sense of urgency and hover around 5-10 games under .500 until late June. Expectations are lowered and pressure comes off a bit. B/c the Central sucks, when they go on a mini-run, they get back in the race. Now they are back at .500 and the pressure mounts again. Time to lose 5 out of 6 to the Suck Rays and AAA Tigers.

I will not fall for this again. I am so fed up. This team is killing me slowly day by day.



You are correct my friend. EVERY time this team has had high expectations, they S U C K suck suck suck. Like I said before and you said above, this has been going on since mid-2000. The last 2 times the Sox have played well were at the beginning of 2000 when they had ZERO expectations and June of 2001 after they were already what, 14-29 and the pressure was off? Look at all the times the pressure was on and we sucked. 2000 playoffs. Beginning of 2001. Beginning of 2003. After we got Everett and Alomar. EVERY TIME we get press and are considered 'good', the team tanks it. EVERY TIME. For 3 years. It can't just be the players, half of them are gone from mid-2000. My only question is this: Who puts the pressure on them? The 14000 of us at the games? It sure as hell isn't the manager, they can make the same mistakes every game and never get disciplined for lack of a better word. A joke. I said it before, you can get whoever you want on this roster, if Manuel is in charge they will not win. And I don't count getting swept in the first round of the playoffs while having the league's best record winning.

voodoochile
07-10-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Absolutely, this team has no discipline at the plate at all. And we added another one in Everett who is always 0-2 1-2, swinging at everything. If I blame JM for anything its that he treats these guys like veterans when he shouldn't. How many times do our hitters have a 3-1 or 3-0 count and foul out or swing at balls out of the zone, when we are down 2 or 3 runs? Its ridiculous, we must have the dumbest team in baseball.

Last nite man on 2nd nobody out, Sandy strikes out, I mean put the ball in play or bunt if you feel like you can't, take it upon yourself. Has JM hurt the team with his tinkering? Absolutely, but these guys are all or nothing they either hit 4 HRs or they ground into 4 DP's. If they don't win this season I blow up this entire lineup. Keep the pitching and get a new offensive philosophy. Players that give themself up and move runners, don't get thrown out making dumb baserunning plays those are the players we need, not guys trying to hit 40 hrs every year.

NYSF

Thanks for saying this. I feel like when I say that SOME of the responsibility lies on Manuel's shoulders, people respond with, "That's just Voodoo. He hates Manuel" and ignore it. The fact of the matter is that Manuel has a responsibility to prepare the batters to face the other pitcher. That means giving pep talks and talking about what is expected of them. Figuring out a hitting strategy for the game and then following it. Knowing the scouting reports. Yes, Greg Walker is supposed to shoulder most of this responsibility, but ultimately it comes back to Manuel.

One of thoes DP's the other night happened when the Sox tried a H&R with Rowand on first. Frank hit a liner back up the middle that went right to the 2B who was covering the bag on the steal. That's the other thing Manuel has horrid "luck".

A new philosophy won't work if the guy in the dugout doesn't know how or doesn't care to implement it. I really think Jerry has given up...

guillen4life13
07-10-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Thanks for saying this. I feel like when I say that SOME of the responsibility lies on Manuel's shoulders, people respond with, "That's just Voodoo. He hates Manuel" and ignore it. The fact of the matter is that Manuel has a responsibility to prepare the batters to face the other pitcher. That means giving pep talks and talking about what is expected of them. Figuring out a hitting strategy for the game and then following it. Knowing the scouting reports. Yes, Greg Walker is supposed to shoulder most of this responsibility, but ultimately it comes back to Manuel.

One of thoes DP's the other night happened when the Sox tried a H&R with Rowand on first. Frank hit a liner back up the middle that went right to the 2B who was covering the bag on the steal. That's the other thing Manuel has horrid "luck".

A new philosophy won't work if the guy in the dugout doesn't know how or doesn't care to implement it. I really think Jerry has given up...

Something I'd like to add is that, in the last three years, the Sox have gone through three hitting coaches, and they have had many changes in the lineup. The only people who were starters on the 2001 club that are still starters here are Maggs, Lee, Valentin, Frank (though I don't count him b/c he was injured in 2001), Pauly (he's no longer the regular 1B), and Sandy (who plays 2 of 5 games now). Rowand, Everett, Alomar, Crede, Daubach and Olivo are the other regulars who weren't under Von Joshua. One thing about Crede, is that the hitting coach change may have hurt him. He was doing pretty well under Ward.

My point is that the hitting coach isn't the problem, and there have been enough changes in the lineup to assume that there is something else that is going on. Constant shuffling of the lineup is unacceptable. Look at the Yankees. That's their everyday lineup... and (gasp!), they ACTUALLY use it on a regular basis!

Soriano
Jeter
Giambi
Williams
Matsui
Posada
Sierra
Mondesi
Ventura


One thing Manuel doesn't seem to do is look at what successful, winning managers do, and then learn from them. You would think that he would have learned this type of stuff from Felipe Alou, but apparently it didn't sink in. :angry:

B. Diddy
07-10-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I mean, none of our hitters like to walk... NONE. You cannot beat anybody when you NEVER walk.

Frank doesn't like to walk?

Unfortunately, he's the only one. It's amazing how this lineup went from powerhouse to outhouse so quickly...

gosox41
07-10-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
No he is not a good manager. Believe me, I am not defending Manuel. I want him gone as well, but this is simply not his fault. A manager can only do so much and especially in baseball. This isn't football where you can blame a coach for calling a bad game. A manager doesn't have that great of a role in baseball. There is no designed play. The hitter simply has to hit. Sure you can blame him if you feel he doesn't put on steals or hit-and-runs enough, but there is only one person to blame for hitters not hitting, and thats the hitters themselves. I've never credited Manuel for getting the players up for the games against the Cubs. The players do that themselves. In fact, thats probably the only series they actually get excited about playing. If they were that enthused about every game, we wouldn't be looking at a team 3 games under .500. As for 2000, it was a fluke. We had a lot of players having career years and it all fell apart in the playoffs. Manuel did nothing special that year. He was manager of the year because he got lucky that guys like Eldred, Baldwin, and Valentin had career years.

I think you're wrong about the manager's role. Remember last weeks game against Tampa Bay when he sat Ordonez but let him pinch hit leading off the 9th inning.

1. Who decided not to play the team's second most productive hitter when the team had a day off on Thursday and one again on Monday.

2. Who's decision was it to not use the asset that was on the bench in a bases loaded situation and 2 outs when Olivo wasi n the middle of an 0-20 slump. Do I know if Magglio would have gotten a hit in that situation? No. But if I were betting, I'd bet that Magglio has a better chance to get a hit off any pitcher in baseball then Olivo does.

This is just one example. Do you want me to bring up more inconsistencies? Taking the bat out of your best hitters hands 4 timesa night is not a good move.

Bob

Jjav829
07-10-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I think you're wrong about the manager's role. Remember last weeks game against Tampa Bay when he sat Ordonez but let him pinch hit leading off the 9th inning.

1. Who decided not to play the team's second most productive hitter when the team had a day off on Thursday and one again on Monday.

2. Who's decision was it to not use the asset that was on the bench in a bases loaded situation and 2 outs when Olivo wasi n the middle of an 0-20 slump. Do I know if Magglio would have gotten a hit in that situation? No. But if I were betting, I'd bet that Magglio has a better chance to get a hit off any pitcher in baseball then Olivo does.

This is just one example. Do you want me to bring up more inconsistencies? Taking the bat out of your best hitters hands 4 timesa night is not a good move.

Bob

Yes, I would like you to. I would then like you to explain how Manuel was the reason the Sox were swept by the Tigers. And how it's Manuels fault that we don't have a single hitter hitting over .300. And how it's Manuel's fault that Sox hitters can't get clutch hits and how they always hit into double plays in crucial situations. Go ahead and nitpick Manuel for the bad moves hes made. Even if he corrected all those, this team would still suck.

gosox41
07-10-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


A new philosophy won't work if the guy in the dugout doesn't know how or doesn't care to implement it. I really think Jerry has given up...

:jerry

Give up now?? I gave up last season when Kenny started his clubhouse tirades. Ever see the movie "Trading Places?" Well me and Paul Konerko have a $1 bet of who could do their job worse and remain with the team the longest.

Bob

SpringfldFan
07-11-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
... And how it's Manuels fault that we don't have a single hitter hitting over .300. And how it's Manuel's fault that Sox hitters can't get clutch hits and how they always hit into double plays in crucial situations...

Simple, he can just pull the hitters aside (or have Walker do it) and tell them if they don't quit trying to jerk everything out of the park and if they don't start taking a pitch here and there, then they will be riding the pine. How much more difficult can it be?

SpringfldFan
07-11-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by SpringfldFan
Simple, he can just pull the hitters aside (or have Walker do it) and tell them if they don't quit trying to jerk everything out of the park and if they don't start taking a pitch here and there, then they will be riding the pine. How much more difficult can it be?

And while I am at it, how the hell hard can it be to spend 15 minutes with some of these guys (i.e. Harris) and show them that when you bunt, you DON'T FRIGGIN STAB at the the ball?!! Bunting isn't the easiest thing in the world but how hard would it be for JM or GW get these guys to hold the bat still? Crap, I was able lay a simple bunt down before I was 10! Sheesh, its fundamental remedial crap like that that the manager can dam well address and make a positive difference!