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Viva Magglio
07-08-2003, 11:14 PM
I have never recalled any previous baseball season in which the umpiring was so bad. It seems that every game we see contains at least one instance of an umpire blowing a call either at our expense or that of the opposing team. I realize that it's hard for umpires to have a 100% perfection rate, and we are not expecting that by any means. However, the blown call rate seems to be increasing dramatically. We have had more than our fair share of blown calls go against us (i.e., Crede's HR that wasn't).

Making matters even worse, we have a dope of a commissioner in Bud Selig. Uncle Bud opposes the use of instant replay and says the game of baseball should rely solely upon the "human element." That is completely moronic. It is an absolute load of crap. The "human element" is WHY we have a problem because we have human umpires whose increasing imperfection is causing the problem in the first place!!!

BRING INSTANT REPLAY TO BASEBALL. The system would be similar to the NFL. Whenever there is a legitimate question over a call, an MLB replay official in the press box would buzz the crew chief. The crew chief would then go to a camera well and review the play in question with the power to adjudicate a decision based upon his review of the replay.

ilsox7
07-08-2003, 11:16 PM
Making matters even worse, we have a dope of a commissioner in Bud Selig. Uncle Bud opposes the use of instant replay and says the game of baseball should rely solely upon the "human element."

About the only thing instant replay should EVER be used for in baseball is a fair/foul call on a home run. Otherwise it cannot be implemented (see the play in TB last week with the Red Sox).

Viva Magglio
07-08-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
About the only thing instant replay should EVER be used for in baseball is a fair/foul call on a home run. Otherwise it cannot be implemented (see the play in TB last week with the Red Sox).

Fair/foul on any kind of batted ball in addition to whether baserunners are safe or out on tags/force plays. Also, whether fly balls are caught or trapped.

voodoochile
07-08-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Fair/foul on any kind of batted ball in addition to whether baserunners are safe or out on tags/force plays. Also, whether fly balls are caught or trapped.

You'd have to limit the amount of appeals like in the NFL. And the evidence would always have to be conclusive.

Viva Magglio
07-08-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You'd have to limit the amount of appeals like in the NFL. And the evidence would always have to be conclusive.

Unlike the NFL, I would not give the managers ANY challenges. It would the the sole discretion of the MLB press box official to call for a review. If managers were given challenges, how would they be penalized if the call was upheld? In the NFL, a team that unsuccessfully challenges a call loses a timeout.

ilsox7
07-08-2003, 11:30 PM
Fair/foul on any kind of batted ball in addition to whether baserunners are safe or out on tags/force plays. Also, whether fly balls are caught or trapped.

It simply cannot be done. Look what happened in TB last week. They go back and change the call and it's chaos. Which runners are put on what bases?

Let's say you have a runner on 1st and 2 outs. Hitter gets a single and runner tries for 3rd. The throw goes to 3rd (with the hitter looking to take 2nd on the throw). The ump calls the guy out at 3rd, thus ending the inning. However, replay says he was safe. Where does the runner trying to advance to 2nd go? If the ump had called him safe (the proper call) the 3rd baseman could have had a chance to get the guy going to 2nd, but stopped b/c the inning apparently ended.

Runner on 1st, blooper down the right field line called foul. Replay shows it was a fair ball. Does the runner on 1st get 3rd base no matter what? Does the hitter get a double or a single? There is really no way to determine it.

All replay will do in baseball is cause confusion. There is no way to regulate what happens when calls are reversed, b/c the rest of the play depended on the umps call on the field.

StepsInSC
07-09-2003, 12:48 AM
Just what baseball needs, longer games!

Thunderstruck30
07-09-2003, 01:35 AM
Yes and no. No because then the games would be even longer. Yes because Im tired of seeing the Sox getting screwed by bad calls.

jcw218
07-09-2003, 02:12 AM
IMHO, there should not be instant replay in baseball. The game is played and officiated be humans. And as humans, the game participants are using their best judgement. Yes I was upset at the boneheaded calls by the home plate umpire yesturday. I have no problem with the umpires when they are consistent with their calls, i.e calling balls and strikes the same for both pitchers. What I DO have a problem with is when one pitcher gets a wider strike zone than the other.

One way to correct the fair/foul situation is to use a 6 man crew. If baseball can use a 6 man crew for the play-offs, world series, and all-star game, why not during the regular season as well?

ilsox7
07-09-2003, 02:14 AM
If baseball can use a 6 man crew for the play-offs, world series, and all-star game, why not during the regular season as well?

Two reasons:
1. $$$$$$ Umpires make a lot of it
2. There aren't many fair/foul calls that are wrong.

StepsInSC
07-09-2003, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by jcw218
One way to correct the fair/foul situation is to use a 6 man crew. If baseball can use a 6 man crew for the play-offs, world series, and all-star game, why not during the regular season as well?

What?!? And have to pay 6 umpires per game? I`m sorry but I draw the line at paying players 250 million!

whitesoxwilkes
07-09-2003, 08:33 AM
Conpsiracy Theory: are the umps possibly prejudiced against the Sox because of the Laz Diaz incident?

Hangar18
07-09-2003, 08:48 AM
All I know is, that umpire from last nite, Chris Guccione,
should get himself a 3 game suspension. He let himself make
a bad call, refused to Appeal it to the 1B umpire, then in a fit
of anger and retribution, rings up Ordonez because hes still
mad at Thomas for showing him up. Im tired of Bad Umpiring...

pl8ump1012
07-09-2003, 09:51 AM
Just some general thoughts on this subject, as an amateur umpire in a very large and respected umpire's association (we do everything from 9 year olds in house, to high school to some D3 college, and of the six umpires in the high school state finals, two came from my association. I only mention all of this to try to give an idea as to what kind of training - for both rules, and just "thinking as an umpire" they give us, and to try to use that to establish at least a little bit of credibility for me to respond on this subject).

All that said, my schedule this summer has made it so that I have not had a chance to watch nearly as many games as I would like to this year. However, I will say that i have noticed an increase in "bad calls" over recent years.

However, I am still amazed at the number of calls that I see on TV and think to myself "what the hell was that guy thinking," and then see 4 or 5 replays, all from different angles, and think to myself, "wow..that was actually the right call." THese include calls that go against the sox. THere have been times when Im watching, and I hear the crowd erupt in boo's, and i didnt even question the call.

As far as the umpires being prejudice against the sox because of the Laz Dias (sp?) I find it ridiculous. I've heard of umps saying something like "this manager gets a little hot tempered some times, just watch out for that," but I simply cannot imagine umps saying "a guy came out of this stadium's stands and attacked another umpire, let's punish the team."

The Mags and Frank thing someone referred to, I didnt get a chance to see it, but base on what people are saying, I also find this highly unlikely. This is what I was referring to with the "thinking like an umpire" training. We're taught that every pitch is its own pitch, every at bat is its own at bat, etc." Sure, if a pitcher that has been "on" the whole night is 3-0 on a batter, if the fourth pitch is "questionable" (these are pitches that could be called either way, not a ball that could be seen as a strike from a certain angle) it will probably be called a strike.
On the other hand, though, umpires don't get upset if someone gives them a hard time. They're very self-confident people, and if someone complains about calls, it isn't going to hurt their feelings, or effect the way that they call the next at-bat. They don't go home at the end of the day and lay awake thinking about getting yelled at by one of the batters, they wait until they are out of view of the cameras (or for amateurs when they are out of view of the teams and fans) and they are joking about the game, talking about who is buying the round of beer after the game. :gulp: At the very most (this is most likeyl happening far more seldom in the pros than in the amateurs) one umpire is explaining to another something they may have done wrong (I'm admitting, it does happen), and a better way to have covered it. They are not, in any case I have ever seen, saying "that guy bitched and moaned about the calls I made, I'm gonna screw his team mate to make a point."

As far as the instant replay goes, I am almost totally against it. The only thing I would consider supporting is possibly for fair/foul home run calls. I think human intuition is very important to the game, and the only reason I may support it in this case is because it is very easy to lose the ball in front of lights/sun/fans.

I started writing this about an hour ago, I have no idea what has been posted since I started typing. Also, please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that umps don't screw up; I am not saying that they dont have bad days; I am not even ruling out the possibility that more umps have had bad days at Comiskey than at any other park. But I am saying that they do a great job 99.7% of the time.

Bring on the responses: :smile:

harwar
07-09-2003, 10:13 AM
The umpiring has been exeedingly bad all year for every team.I think one of the main problems early on was that the umps were concentrating so hard on moving the game along and making sure the hitters,pitchers,& coaches didn't waist any precious time,that they started blowing calls left and right.They seemed more intent on keeping the games short(too short?)then getting the calls correct.

boog_alou
07-09-2003, 10:21 AM
If baseball had any instant replay system, it would just slow down a game which already has a very leisurely pace. If MLB instituted a replay rule with a standard similar to the NFL, which allows for overturning a call only when there is "incontrovertible visual evidence," then very few calls would be overturned. Certainly the two check swing strike outs in last night's game would not have been overturned. They were close calls (at least Frank's was a close call). Definitely not overturnable.

We can all point to the most exceptional bad calls (like the HR they took away from Crede which was fair by several feet), but they are exceedingly rare.

voodoochile
07-09-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by ilsox7
It simply cannot be done. Look what happened in TB last week. They go back and change the call and it's chaos. Which runners are put on what bases?

Let's say you have a runner on 1st and 2 outs. Hitter gets a single and runner tries for 3rd. The throw goes to 3rd (with the hitter looking to take 2nd on the throw). The ump calls the guy out at 3rd, thus ending the inning. However, replay says he was safe. Where does the runner trying to advance to 2nd go? If the ump had called him safe (the proper call) the 3rd baseman could have had a chance to get the guy going to 2nd, but stopped b/c the inning apparently ended.

Runner on 1st, blooper down the right field line called foul. Replay shows it was a fair ball. Does the runner on 1st get 3rd base no matter what? Does the hitter get a double or a single? There is really no way to determine it.

All replay will do in baseball is cause confusion. There is no way to regulate what happens when calls are reversed, b/c the rest of the play depended on the umps call on the field.

Just wanted to let you know that your response changed my mind on the issue. I used to be a replay proponent, but missed this obviously huge issue.

I now believe that it could only be used for HR/Foul and don't believe it would be worth it to do so. Instead, maybe they could install one of those systems like they use to determine fault, no fault in tennis. If the ball goes by on the fair side, a colored light lights up.

The rest is simply impossible.

jabrch
07-09-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by ilsox7
It simply cannot be done. Look what happened in TB last week. They go back and change the call and it's chaos. Which runners are put on what bases?

Let's say you have a runner on 1st and 2 outs. Hitter gets a single and runner tries for 3rd. The throw goes to 3rd (with the hitter looking to take 2nd on the throw). The ump calls the guy out at 3rd, thus ending the inning. However, replay says he was safe. Where does the runner trying to advance to 2nd go? If the ump had called him safe (the proper call) the 3rd baseman could have had a chance to get the guy going to 2nd, but stopped b/c the inning apparently ended.



The simple answer is to deal with it via the ground rules...The same was as if a runner is on 1st and a ball is pounded into the corner but picked up by a fan...by rule, the runner advances only 2 bases. It isn't perfect, but it might help get some of the umpiring mistakes out of the game.

Dadawg_77
07-09-2003, 10:37 AM
Major League screwed up game with its labor dispute with the umpires to replace the guys who they kicked out, they used not as good scabs and thus quality of umping has lowed since then.

voodoochile
07-09-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
The simple answer is to deal with it via the ground rules...The same was as if a runner is on 1st and a ball is pounded into the corner but picked up by a fan...by rule, the runner advances only 2 bases. It isn't perfect, but it might help get some of the umpiring mistakes out of the game.

So, you want to rewrite the most fundamental rules of the game to fix a problem that occurs once a month?

boog_alou
07-09-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
So, you want to rewrite the most fundamental rules of the game to fix a problem that occurs once a month?
That would be the worst idea to hit baseball since the designated hitter.

voodoochile
07-09-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by boog_alou
That would be the worst idea to hit baseball since the designated hitter.

I like the DH. I hate watching teams walk .220 hitters to pitch to the pitcher.

voodoochile
07-09-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Major League screwed up game with its labor dispute with the umpires to replace the guys who they kicked out, they used not as good scabs and thus quality of umping has lowed since then.

Most of those guys were allowed back. I think only 6 guys or something ended up being forced out.