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View Full Version : Most of WSI is WRONG about Jimenez


Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 10:37 AM
I'd like to clear the air. I did like the Alomar deal. He is old, but he is the best 2nd basemen of all time, in my opinion. We'll see what happens with that move. KW can never stop when he's ahead though, now he's getting Everett and jamming up the lineup? Daubach was hot, doing a good job as spot player. Why Everett? Rowand is showing he's very capable, and CE isn't a true CF anyway.

In any case, my main point here is that WSI bashes D'Angelo disproportionately. Guys, he carried the team over certain stretches offensively! Yes, he made a few mental errors, but he walked, something which only Thomas mimics on this team. I just think he would have been good to keep around ... and potentially use after we sign NONE of the Free Agents after this season. Obviously, Miles is in the plans, but Jimenez, even with his errors, did so much more than anyone on the team for a long time, both offensively and defensively. I'm just saying I wish we still had him. If you think Willie Harris is better than Jimenez you are on CRACK. That's why Manuel still has to go.

I'm not convinced. I have a feeling KW is set to make MORE moves. We better win, or else we'll have NOTHING for like 10 years ...

WillieHarris12
07-07-2003, 10:40 AM
I will change my mind on Jimenez if you vote for Frank 100 times.

A.T. Money
07-07-2003, 10:52 AM
Jimenez sucks man. I'm sure Willie Harris or Alomar wouldn't have dropped the inning-ending pop up vs. Oakland, and I'm sure those others would have scored in Minnesota to give them the sweep in the Baggy Dome.

This whole thread is pointless. He's old news, he's been traded. He's someone else's problem now. Who gives a crap?

:threadsucks:

harwar
07-07-2003, 10:58 AM
Jimenez is the WORST baserunner that i ever saw,he's lazy and(lets just say)not very bright.Theres no point in talking about his defense because,well,you know,he's bad.I like what i see from Willie Harris but he should be down in AAA learning how to bunt and work the count.I feel he will be the White Sox second baseman(and a good one) for years to come.

duke of dorwood
07-07-2003, 11:18 AM
Bottom line-we are better without him

voodoochile
07-07-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Bottom line-we are better without him

Comes a moment, you cut your losses. Jimenez has a ton of talent, but fails at the mental side of the game. He is gone, people need to get over it...

kermittheefrog
07-07-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
Jimenez sucks man. I'm sure Willie Harris or Alomar wouldn't have dropped the inning-ending pop up vs. Oakland, and I'm sure those others would have scored in Minnesota to give them the sweep in the Baggy Dome.

This whole thread is pointless. He's old news, he's been traded. He's someone else's problem now. Who gives a crap?


Why don't we all just reply and say the thread sucks if we don't agree with the first poster? What a great idea!

Seriously, at the very least we shouldn't have dumped Jimenez for next to nothing, he's a useful player. A weak defender and guy who makes a few mental errors but his bat was useful. If nothing else use him off the bench and occasionally DH.

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 11:31 AM
Thanks Kermit --- at least someone is slightly objective.

I love the "cut your losses" bit. He played for 1/2 a season and you judge him as a total failure? That's INSANE. Why do I want Ray Durham #2 (who isn't nearly as good as Durham) playing for my team?

Meixner007
07-07-2003, 11:33 AM
1)His defense sucks

2)Yes, he was good offensively...compared to the team, but that's not saying much. Who cares if he can get on base if he's just going to get thrown out, or not take advantage of a hit while he's there? He was awful, and I, for one, am happy he's gone. He was the worst fundamental baseball player I have ever seen....hands down.

voodoochile
07-07-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Thanks Kermit --- at least someone is slightly objective.

I love the "cut your losses" bit. He played for 1/2 a season and you judge him as a total failure? That's INSANE. Why do I want Ray Durham #2 (who isn't nearly as good as Durham) playing for my team?

I never said he was a total failure. I just think they made the right move. I don't think he will make a good bench player and am happy with Alomar at 2B and Daubach/Everett/Thomas at the DH slot instead of Jimenez.

Like I said. He has talent, but has a hard time harnessing it.

He is long gone. What do you hope to gain with this thread. Maybe we should wait and see if he turns into the "stud" the FODJ think he will.

I admit I was on the fence with the kid. Barring an acquisition, I wanted to see him start at 2B most of the time, but once Alomar came, I didn't mind seeing DJ go at all....

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 12:00 PM
I'll say that the point of this is for Sox fans to not get caught up in extreme opinions of certain players based on the team's struggles. I mean, why didn't you bitch about Daubach getting thrown out in that Jimenez play? Maybe DJ thought that since Brian was such a moron that he could get 2nd. If Daubach runs the bases the way he's supposed to, Jimenez never gets out. No one EVER mentioned that. Well, I'm done. I hope they play Rowand more.

Gumshoe

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Why don't we all just reply and say the thread sucks if we don't agree with the first poster? What a great idea!

Seriously, at the very least we shouldn't have dumped Jimenez for next to nothing, he's a useful player. A weak defender and guy who makes a few mental errors but his bat was useful. If nothing else use him off the bench and occasionally DH.

As our resident stathead, I'm curious what your viewpoint would be on this subject, Froggie.

The Sox added Alomar and Everett to the roster. You can only fit 25 guys onto the roster. With the upgraded roster, Jimenez is no longer good enough to start every day. So who among the reserves would you cut to make room? Pick two:

Konerko
Daubach
Graffanino
Harris
Rowand
Jimenez
Rios

I'm not much of a fan of any of these guys, but I agree with the Sox that Jimenez and Rios were the two most expendable. Meanwhile I'm tickled pink that we've upgraded two positions (2B and CF) that represented gaping holes in our championship aspirations.

So Froggie, where's the beef?

B. Diddy
07-07-2003, 12:08 PM
We got a pitching prospect for Jiminez. Perhaps he's worth more than that, but we have Alomar now, who is worth infinitely more.

Robbie might not be around next year, but if we don't go deep into the playoffs this year, a lot of other players won't either...

pudge
07-07-2003, 12:28 PM
I'm not crying over Jimenez, but I do think he got bashed a little unfairly... I think the entire team was pretty bad at fundamentals at the start of this season, so who do you blame for that? Still, it just goes to show, you gotta have your head in the game at the MLB level or your career could come to a quick end.

hold2dibber
07-07-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
As our resident stathead, I'm curious what your viewpoint would be on this subject, Froggie.

The Sox added Alomar and Everett to the roster. You can only fit 25 guys onto the roster. With the upgraded roster, Jimenez is no longer good enough to start every day. So who among the reserves would you cut to make room? Pick two:

Konerko
Daubach
Graffanino
Harris
Rowand
Jimenez
Rios

I'm not much of a fan of any of these guys, but I agree with the Sox that Jimenez and Rios were the two most expendable. Meanwhile I'm tickled pink that we've upgraded two positions (2B and CF) that represented gaping holes in our championship aspirations.

So Froggie, where's the beef?

Rios was an obvious choice. Konerko, Daubach, and Graffanino weren't going anywhere. So it came down to Jimenez, Rowand or Harris. One of them had to go. It seems to me that either Rowand or Harris had to stick, because with Rios gone, no one else on the roster could back up Everett in CF. So the Sox had to cut lose Jimenez or one of Harris or Rowand. Because both Harris and Rowand have options left, I would have kept Jimenez and probably shuffled Rowand and Harris back and forth between Chicago and Charlotte as necessary. Why? Because Alomar isn't going to be back next year, and IMHO, Willie Harris, while a potentially valuable bench player (because of his speed, ability to play 2 positions (though neither very well) and ability to bunt) is not and never will be a good every day player (because he can't hit well enough). The Sox didn't really need Jimenez this year. But he is better than any other 2B in the organization who will still be with the team next year. Plus, he is a good offensive player - it's not like he's worthless. He can pinch hit, DH, spell Alomar, Valentin or Crede and he's a switch hitter.

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 01:26 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who thinks Harris is better is on CRACK. The Everett move wasn't good. All it does is clog the lineup up, too. Rowand is the one you want in CF. I'm not judging Everett yet, but he hasn't looked good in center, and why not give AR a chance?

As dibber said, Alomar will be gone next year, maybe we use Miles at 2B, but then who plays short? Are we going to sign Valentin again? I hope, but I have my doubts. Jimenez was far too versatile to just DROP. Send down David Sanders, for god sakes, if you have to!

I'm glad Rios is gone, finally, at least.

G

OEO Magglio
07-07-2003, 01:43 PM
The problem with sending down Sanders at that time, or right now is the sox would only have 5 pitchers out of the pen, once Wunsch is back sanders will be back in aaa.

B. Diddy
07-07-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I'm not crying over Jimenez, but I do think he got bashed a little unfairly... I think the entire team was pretty bad at fundamentals at the start of this season, so who do you blame for that? Still, it just goes to show, you gotta have your head in the game at the MLB level or your career could come to a quick end.

With the departure of Durham, he had to step up rigt away. He's talented and he'll get an opportunity somewhere else. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't going to happen on a team that's making a run for the playoffs.

voodoochile
07-07-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who thinks Harris is better is on CRACK. The Everett move wasn't good. All it does is clog the lineup up, too. Rowand is the one you want in CF. I'm not judging Everett yet, but he hasn't looked good in center, and why not give AR a chance?

As dibber said, Alomar will be gone next year, maybe we use Miles at 2B, but then who plays short? Are we going to sign Valentin again? I hope, but I have my doubts. Jimenez was far too versatile to just DROP. Send down David Sanders, for god sakes, if you have to!

I'm glad Rios is gone, finally, at least.

G

I guess now I'm confused. You want Jimenez back on the team because he has better stats than Harris, but want Rowand in CF instead of Everett.

raul12
07-07-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I hope, but I have my doubts. Jimenez was far too versatile to just DROP. G

In that case, we need to get Mr. Versatility back!

:versatile
"you called?"

maurice
07-07-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I guess now I'm confused. You want Jimenez back on the team because he has better stats than Harris, but want Rowand in CF instead of Everett.

Consider the source, voodoo. Given his posts in the "Baker's Big Mouth" thread, Gumshoe prefers Rowand over Everett (a 2003 All Star), because Rowand is logical, has more endurance, and has a greater ability to build houses and find food in Chicago's cold-weather climate. Everett's advantage against land predators is virtually useless this far from the equator!

voodoochile
07-07-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Consider the source, voodoo. Given his posts in the "Baker's Big Mouth" thread, Gumshoe prefers Rowand over Everett (a 2003 All Star), because Rowand is logical, has more endurance, and has a greater ability to build houses and find food in Chicago's cold-weather climate. Everett's advantage against land predators is virtually useless this far from the equator!

*****!

Meixner007
07-07-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who thinks Harris is better is on CRACK. The Everett move wasn't good. All it does is clog the lineup up, too. Rowand is the one you want in CF. I'm not judging Everett yet, but he hasn't looked good in center, and why not give AR a chance?



God forebid we "clog" the lineup with allstars.

hold2dibber
07-07-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
The Everett move wasn't good. All it does is clog the lineup up, too. Rowand is the one you want in CF. I'm not judging Everett yet, but he hasn't looked good in center, and why not give AR a chance?

I agree with you on the Jimenez situation, but strongly disagree with you on the Everett/Rowand situation. Why go with Everett instead of Rowand? Rowand is, at best , a .270 avg., 15 HR, 80 RBI, .325 OBP, .750 OPS player. Everett is, on average , a .275 avg., 25 HR, 95 RBI, .350 OBP, .825 OPS player. Plus he is a switch hitter. He is a huge upgrade over Rowand offensively. I don't know about Everett's defense in CF. But from what I've seen, Rowand is average, at best. I think Rowand is a decent 4th outfielder because he's fast, can play all 3 outfield positions, and he does have a little pop in his bat. But he is a far cry from Carl Everett with the stick, without a doubt.

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 04:18 PM
I'm not saying you are wrong, but what tells you that Rowand CAN'T hit .275 with 25 dongs over the course of a season. Yes, CE is a switch hitter, but he's not going to be with us next year. No way. Rowand is better defensively, I'm guessing. Rowand does not have a year where he a)played consistently b)got over 300 at bats .... I'm saying let's give him a chance.

G

kermittheefrog
07-07-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
As our resident stathead, I'm curious what your viewpoint would be on this subject, Froggie.

The Sox added Alomar and Everett to the roster. You can only fit 25 guys onto the roster. With the upgraded roster, Jimenez is no longer good enough to start every day. So who among the reserves would you cut to make room? Pick two:

Konerko
Daubach
Graffanino
Harris
Rowand
Jimenez
Rios

I'm not much of a fan of any of these guys, but I agree with the Sox that Jimenez and Rios were the two most expendable. Meanwhile I'm tickled pink that we've upgraded two positions (2B and CF) that represented gaping holes in our championship aspirations.

So Froggie, where's the beef?

I'd send off Rios and Harris. Between them the only baseball skill you have is Harris' ability to steal a base. I think most people are convinced Rios sucks but Harris is just as bad.

Harris can't hit and isn't much on D either. Also unlike Jimenez, Harris isn't out of options. Harris could have been sent to the minors without being sent through waivers. So if Harris ever found out how to get on base regularly he'd still be in the Sox organization to help us out.

Paulwny
07-07-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I'm not crying over Jimenez, but I do think he got bashed a little unfairly... I think the entire team was pretty bad at fundamentals at the start of this season, so who do you blame for that? Still, it just goes to show, you gotta have your head in the game at the MLB level or your career could come to a quick end.

I wish I knew the answer to the lack of fundamentals seen in today's game, its not only the sox.
The sox are the 3rd organization Jimenez has played for, he's either very stupid or noone teaches fundamentals in their minor league system.

hold2dibber
07-07-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Also unlike Jimenez, Harris isn't out of options. Harris could have been sent to the minors without being sent through waivers. So if Harris ever found out how to get on base regularly he'd still be in the Sox organization to help us out.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

It just doesn't make sense to trade Jimenez for nothing when they could have kept both he and Harris in the organization. Jimenez isn't a world beater, but he's better than anyone else the Sox have to play 2B next year. My conclusion is that the Sox came to view Jimenez as a loafer and decided that Klesko was right. Therefore, they did not want him around, notwithstanding the fact that he clearly is a better than Willie Harris at this point in time. Addition via subtraction. We, of course, don't really know what goes on behind closed doors, so maybe there's something to it. From where I sit, it doesn't seem like the brightest decision, but I'm not really losing sleep over it because I have my doubts that Jimenez will ever "discover" the intensity and desire needed to transform his potential into performance.

pearso66
07-07-2003, 05:11 PM
The only way that Jimenez will ever find the determination to play hard all the time, and not be "lazy" is if he keeps going from team to team for nobody's. I myself am also glad to see him gone. He won't learn to play hard here. And as for Harris, my only beef is that he isn't hitting well. I personally havn't seen anything that has shown he is a worse fielder than Jimenez. At least he has his head in the game. He also looks to be raising his average and getting on base more.

According to DJ, he's too competitive to keep hitting the way he has been. I'm hoping he's right

oldcomiskey
07-07-2003, 05:11 PM
ever seen a player get eaten alive---let Jiminez mess up while Carl Everett is around

jeremyb1
07-07-2003, 05:23 PM
i think it more or less goes without saying but i strongly agree with the point made by gumshoe, dibber, and kermitt in this thread. as i've said all along, many posters here have proven themselves to be incapable of looking at the big picture and getting past their emotions, more specifically the frustration jimenez has caused them, to see that jimenez is valuable to this ballclub and shouldn't be given away for nothing. people seem to be angry not because jimenez's mistakes were particularly costly - he only had about 8 errors at second base and most posters are only able to name one or two baserunning blunders - but because the "stupid" or "mental" mistakes he made were very frustrating to a lot of fans watching the games.

in the end we dealt a cheap, productive player that was still only 25 years old for nothing instead of sending a player who can't hit, take a walk, or play outstanding defense to the minor leagues. a number of people have argued harris makes the better bench player but anyone who thinks anyone on manuel's bench won't see substantial at bats is out of their mind. harris has already had a number of at bats since he was moved to the bench and he will continue to have many more. his ability to pinch run from time to time in no way trumps jimenez's ability to produce offensively when you consider that harris will most likely have at least 50 at bats over the rest of the season and maybe quite a few more.

most importantly this move underscores the fact that kenny has more or less completely abandoned any strong chance of competing in '04. by designating jimenez for assignment, harris who has yet to shown the ability to contribute offensively, is now the incumbent shortstop after this season barring a miricle allowing us to resign alomar. i fail to see how having harris as a reserve is in any way more important that avoiding starting a player that will most likely be amongst the worst hitting regulars in baseball in '04.

TornLabrum
07-07-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who thinks Harris is better is on CRACK. The Everett move wasn't good. All it does is clog the lineup up, too. Rowand is the one you want in CF. I'm not judging Everett yet, but he hasn't looked good in center, and why not give AR a chance?

As dibber said, Alomar will be gone next year, maybe we use Miles at 2B, but then who plays short? Are we going to sign Valentin again? I hope, but I have my doubts. Jimenez was far too versatile to just DROP. Send down David Sanders, for god sakes, if you have to!

I'm glad Rios is gone, finally, at least.

G

Harris has one advantage over Jimenez. He is fast. This makes him useful as a late-inning defensive replacement in CF or as a pinch runner.

Unregistered
07-07-2003, 05:37 PM
If memory serves, I remember reading a quote from Frank Thomas mentioning that Jimenez had some trouble in the clubhouse leading up to his demotion as well. When pressed for details, Frank said something like "I don't want to get into it, but let's just say we wish D'Angelo the best...''. That being said, I think it's entirely possible that some of the guys were fed up with Jimenez' attitude, lack of focus, or something that we might not even know about, and started voicing their opinions to him, causing a bit of a clubhouse stir...

Unregistered
07-07-2003, 05:43 PM
Just found that quote:

from the Sun-Times:
''I don't think it was mental mistakes,'' said Thomas, who considered Jimenez a friend. ''Stuff had been happening for the last month with him, with a few things going on around here, and it got out of hand. But D'Angelo's a good guy, and we're going to miss him.''

Ask to clarify what he meant, Thomas shed a little more light on the situation.

''Just little things,'' Thomas said. ''They're talking about working harder on ground balls, just nitpicking. It's been going on here, and guys have been bickering a little about it. D'Angelo's a very good player.''

jeremyb1
07-07-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
If memory serves, I remember reading a quote from Frank Thomas mentioning that Jimenez had some trouble in the clubhouse leading up to his demotion as well. When pressed for details, Frank said something like "I don't want to get into it, but let's just say we wish D'Angelo the best...''. That being said, I think it's entirely possible that some of the guys were fed up with Jimenez' attitude, lack of focus, or something that we might not even know about, and started voicing their opinions to him, causing a bit of a clubhouse stir...

i don't recall frank saying the problem was in the clubhouse but more in terms of putting in work as far as infield practice and whatnot. that's obviously not a good thing but its not the same as causing problems with players in the clubhouse.

jeremyb1
07-07-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Harris has one advantage over Jimenez. He is fast. This makes him useful as a late-inning defensive replacement in CF or as a pinch runner.

its important to remember that speed does not necessarily equal range in centerfield a lot of it is the routes a player takes to the ball. personally i think rowand is probably about as good or better than harris in centerfield.

having a pinch runner can be beneficial but i think its highly overrated. you can only use harris as a pinch runner once ever game and unless its a really close game in the late innings you don't even need a pinch runner.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2003, 05:56 PM
Okay, if I'm reading this correctly, some of you are pissed that the Sox kept Harris rather than Jimenez. The only exception is Gumshoe who seriously asserted that Rowand deserves CF over Everett, a 2003 all-star. I won't even dignify that opinion with a response. As for the rest...

Whether we kept Harris or Jimenez doesn't seem to be material. We're talking about--at best-- the #24 ballplayer on the roster. Neither is going to make or break the Sox this season or any other season for the forseeable future. Each has advantages over the other which I won't bother to recount since others already have.

Here's what I know. One of them HAD to go. The reason one of them had to go was two new ballplayers were brought in that CLEARLY upgraded the 25-man roster. In other words, there wasn't room for both of them on the roster anymore. This is a GOOD PROBLEM to have, and I won't be losing any sleep worrying about Harris getting chosen over DJ, or DJ becoming a world beater with the fourth ballclub to pick him up for cheap after the previous three tossed him on the trash pile.

Man, think of something else to bitch about.

jeremyb1
07-07-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Okay, if I'm reading this correctly, some of you are pissed that the Sox kept Harris rather than Jimenez. The only exception is Gumshoe who seriously asserted that Rowand deserves CF over Everett, a 2003 all-star. I won't even dignify that opinion with a response. As for the rest...

Whether we kept Harris or Jimenez doesn't seem to be material. We're talking about--at best-- the #24 ballplayer on the roster. Neither is going to make or break the Sox this season or any other season for the forseeable future. Each has advantages over the other which I won't bother to recount since others already have.

Here's what I know. One of them HAD to go. The reason one of them had to go was two new ballplayers were brought in that CLEARLY upgraded the 25-man roster. In other words, there wasn't room for both of them on the roster anymore. This is a GOOD PROBLEM to have, and I won't be losing any sleep worrying about Harris getting chosen over DJ, or DJ becoming a world beater with the fourth ballclub to pick him up for cheap after the previous three tossed him on the trash pile.

Man, think of something else to bitch about.

i want to reiterate that one of them did NOT have to go. sending a player to charlotte is not the equivalent of designating a player for assignment. as for one player's ability to make or break a season, i think you're being somewhat shortsighted here. if each player is to perform at a similar level next year compared to this season which is reasonable to expect to a certain extent, jimenez would be league average and harris would be the worst offensive regular in baseball. that's a huge difference. even if you figure we will sign someone to play second, not having jimenez in the fold as an option increases the likelihood of signing a second basemen which is money that could be spent on colon or a different player.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i want to reiterate that one of them did NOT have to go...

The reason Jimenez is gone is far more fundamental than this, jeremy. He's gone because the Sox don't need the 25th man being someone who can only play second base and MAYBE shortstop. They tried DJ at third base just last month, remember? He committed two errors! Clearly the Sox would want his bat in the line up over Crede, but maybe--- JUST MAYBE-- Jimenez was too much of a horse's ass to take the opportunity and run with it? Do think MAYBE that could be why he is gone? Surely you don't think he is good enough to take Alomar's job, or are you telling us the '03 Sox are supposed to be a training camp for the '04 Sox? Give it a rest already.

Harris plays the outfield and at least TRIES to learn. That's easily more valuable for this team right now. As for next year and beyond, I'm going to try real, REAL hard not to laugh when you claim this year's #25 ballplayer--already dumped by 3 different ballclubs before his 26th birthday-- is the Second Coming of Christ at second base.

Harris or Jimenez. It won't make a bit of difference.

guillen4life13
07-07-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
He's gone because the Sox don't need the 25th man being someone who can only play second base and MAYBE shortstop.

I was under the impression that shortstop was his natural position. Isn't that what he was listed as in the Yankees farm system?

PaleHoseGeorge
07-07-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I was under the impression that shortstop was his natural position. Isn't that what he was listed as in the Yankees farm system?

He has played both positions, but not shortstop for the Sox since last year. If he isn't good enough to start, he has to be a substitute for someone else. Jimenez can cover two positions, both of them also covered by Tony Graffanino. Is his bat REALLY that good that we want two Tony Graffaninos on the bench?

Daver
07-07-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I was under the impression that shortstop was his natural position. Isn't that what he was listed as in the Yankees farm system?

He has not been able to play effectively at SS since his car accident,and I think it was proved when the Sox tried him a 3rd,where he was ineffective in fielding the position as well as throwing the ball.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2003, 09:35 PM
In the end we dealt a cheap, productive player that was still only 25 years old for nothing

We didn't get rid of Duh Angelo for nothing. We got a double A pitcher.

You remember them don't you? We got a whole bunch of them late last July when some of the same folks who are upset we're saying that the Sox got some good arms in the deal.

I guess it was only OK to get Double A prospects for Durham, Lofton and Alomar

I agree with PHG...it's not like we're talkin Nomar Garciaparra or Alfonso Soriano here!

Spock's 1st law: A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Lip

guillen4life13
07-07-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Spock's 1st law: A difference that makes no difference is no difference.


:)

jeremyb1
07-07-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The reason Jimenez is gone is far more fundamental than this, jeremy. He's gone because the Sox don't need the 25th man being someone who can only play second base and MAYBE shortstop. They tried DJ at third base just last month, remember? He committed two errors! Clearly the Sox would want his bat in the line up over Crede, but maybe--- JUST MAYBE-- Jimenez was too much of a horse's ass to take the opportunity and run with it? Do think MAYBE that could be why he is gone? Surely you don't think he is good enough to take Alomar's job, or are you telling us the '03 Sox are supposed to be a training camp for the '04 Sox? Give it a rest already.

Harris plays the outfield and at least TRIES to learn. That's easily more valuable for this team right now. As for next year and beyond, I'm going to try real, REAL hard not to laugh when you claim this year's #25 ballplayer--already dumped by 3 different ballclubs before his 26th birthday-- is the Second Coming of Christ at second base.

Harris or Jimenez. It won't make a bit of difference.

i fail to see why it is so incredibly crucial that we have a third player capable of playing centerfield on the roster. if you remember correctly, we came out of spring training with rowand as our starting centerfielder and rios as his backup. why do we suddenly need everett backed up by rowand backed up by harris? playing second base and centerfield doesn't exactly make you a superutility player.

i find your comment about making the team a "training ground for '04" utterly riduculous. are you suggesting every player on the roster should be on the roster solely for the purposes of what he will accomplish this season? if that's the case we very well may want to ship of crede for someone like jose hernandez. crede certainly has not helped this team offensively this season as he's been one of the absolute worst hitter regulars in all of baseball. and if you think that playing good defense at third cancels this out, that goes back to most people's issues with jimenez, they find below average defense frustrating regardless of how much it actually hurts the team.

again, what it all comes back to for those in the anti-jimenez camp is not the player that achieves the most but the player who is the least frustrating. otherwise why would it matter what harris' attitude is and how hard he tries? if he's busting his butt to hit .200 he's obviously not doing really well. if jimenez has a bad attitude and still hits circles around harris he's obviously a much more valuable asset. furthermore i don't understand why this argument is entirely about jimenez. no one is holding him up to be a god. what i am holding him up as is an average major league second basement with the potential to be even better if he puts his head on straight. the biggest point for me is that willie harris has been absolutely atrocious. he has never hit at the major league level. ever. so why you would want one of the worst hitters in baseball over a player who is average for a starting second basemen on your bench just because of each player's percieved attitude is completely beyond me. it just does not add up when you think about how much you'r sacrificing in terms of ability.

jeremyb1
07-07-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
In the end we dealt a cheap, productive player that was still only 25 years old for nothing

We didn't get rid of Duh Angelo for nothing. We got a double A pitcher.

You remember them don't you? We got a whole bunch of them late last July when some of the same folks who are upset we're saying that the Sox got some good arms in the deal.

I guess it was only OK to get Double A prospects for Durham, Lofton and Alomar

I agree with PHG...it's not like we're talkin Nomar Garciaparra or Alfonso Soriano here!

Spock's 1st law: A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

come on lip, clearly all AA pitchers are not equal. clearly there have been incredible pitchers at AA. buehrle was in AA in '00 i'd hate to think he was completely worthless at that point simply because he was a minor league pitcher.

there's a world of difference between trading lofton a player that wasn't even going to be on the team next year for a 22 year old AA pitcher that has helped us to land everett by being included in the group of prospects texas is choosing from, and has pitched well as a starter in AAA and a 25 year old non-prospect in AA.

pearso66
07-07-2003, 11:05 PM
I don't think that Jimenez will ever get his head on straight, at least if he is with the same team and not being shown he is hurting the team. The only way he learns is to consistantly be traded and each team saying he is lazy, then maybe, just maybe, something will click.

guillen4life13
07-07-2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
I don't think that Jimenez will ever get his head on straight, at least if he is with the same team and not being shown he is hurting the team. The only way he learns is to consistantly be traded and each team saying he is lazy, then maybe, just maybe, something will click.

Last year, he came in and added a spark to this team. This year, in the beginning, he added a spark, then went into a prolonged slump, and his defense/baserunning blunders became much more frequent. Maybe he's one of those guys whose work ethic/focus wears out after a while, and needs a new team to get that element back... temporarily.

I'm glad Jimenez is gone... I just think the Sox could have recieved more in return. A AA relief pitcher who is (according to the poster who opened the trade thread) 25-26 years old with a 3.79 ERA is not worth a major league ready 2B... especially one who has shown himself of being a capable everyday starter. As far as I can see, Scott Dunn does not look like he will end up being a valuable pitcher in the pen, as he already is somewhat old (considering he's in AA). According to baseball-reference.com, he has never made an appearance in the major leagues.

Surely St. Louis, the Marlins (who are supposedly looking to trade Castillo), and the Mets would have some use for Jimenez... right? As far as I know, the Mets' best options as of now at 2B are Rey Sanchez, and Jay Bell who are hitting .209 and .203 respectively. Jimenez is an offensive upgrade over both of them, plus his salary is relatively low.

St. Louis has been using Bo Hart, who is damn good defensively, and is hitting .390 in only 77 ABs. Jimenez, while streaky, could be a possibility there, just because of the experience and he is a leadoff possibility. By the way... who is StL using as the leadoff hitter?

kermittheefrog
07-08-2003, 12:06 AM
It seems like Jimenez's detractors fail to recognize that Jimenez had a lot of future value as a solid hitting second baseman. If it was all about this year and who was going to be the 23rd or 24th man then yes it's not a big deal. However I see this as a guy with talent who has proven he can hit in the majors for a C- pitcher. If I recall correctly Dunn is barely younger than Jimenez and just in AA.

Even if you don't want to keep Jimenez long term if you just keep him in the organization and send Harris to the minors. D'Angleo could acquire more trade value later. Someone might get injured and need a replacement, Jimenez could go on another tear, anything could happen in the next several months to inflate his trade value. Designating him for assignment left Kenny just ten days to maximize what could be acquired for Jimenez.

I know you can say "what if his trade value declines?" Well who cares? All we'd miss out on is a AA pitcher that might some day be Gary Glover. There is literally no reason to give up on Jimenez now. Hell maybe we could have traded him for a reliever to help us in the immediate if we had waited a little longer. Who knows? All I know is a guy who can obviously hit was kicked to the curb.

And before you even get to the "no one wants guys like Jimenez who make mental mistakes" I'll bring up there is a bestseller about how Oakland put together a great team using players other people didn't want. There is a market for guys who get on base.

pearso66
07-08-2003, 01:05 AM
The last I heard of Jimenez being a highly touted player was when he was first with the Padres. But he got replaced because he wasnt doing his job. apparently he was gone from the yankees, because he couldn't do his job. He was traded from the Sox cuz he couldn't do his job. Would that be the case of 3 strikes and your out?

WhiteSox = Life
07-08-2003, 01:20 AM
:shammy
"If that were true, would I still be around?"

jeremyb1
07-08-2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
[BI know you can say "what if his trade value declines?" Well who cares? All we'd miss out on is a AA pitcher that might some day be Gary Glover. There is literally no reason to give up on Jimenez now. Hell maybe we could have traded him for a reliever to help us in the immediate if we had waited a little longer. Who knows? All I know is a guy who can obviously hit was kicked to the curb. [/B]

exactly except gary glover is probably shooting a little high since he's 26 NOW and debuted at 23!

ilsox7
07-08-2003, 03:39 AM
For all the DJ "supporters" doesn't it tell you something about how the rest of baseball views him if the best we could do was this AA guy? There are a few teams out there who could use a guy with DJ's numbers, but those teams obviously did not want him. If they did, we would have more than a AA no name.

Stats are important and all, but they are not the whole picture. It has been pretty well documented as to how DJ's teammates view him. Many don't like him and respect him even less.

MarkEdward
07-08-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by ilsox7
For all the DJ "supporters" doesn't it tell you something about how the rest of baseball views him if the best we could do was this AA guy? There are a few teams out there who could use a guy with DJ's numbers, but those teams obviously did not want him. If they did, we would have more than a AA no name.


Or maybe it shows the incompetence of most major league GMs.

Or maybe Kenny just took the first offer that came his way. Remember, Williams has 10 days to trade him or Jimenez would get released. Many teams were hoping that DJ would get cut.

ilsox7
07-08-2003, 02:49 PM
Or maybe it shows the incompetence of most major league GMs.

Contrary to popular belief, most GM's are not idiots. They actually know the game.

Or maybe Kenny just took the first offer that came his way. Remember, Williams has 10 days to trade him or Jimenez would get released. Many teams were hoping that DJ would get cut.

EVERY General Manager in the game knew DJ was available. They also knew he could be had for very little, as players designated for assignment are not going to bring a top prospect. So you don't think if a team like the Astros, or maybe even the Cards, who need a middle infielder, would have thrown a C level prospect at the Sox if they wanted DJ? Again, it truly says something about the guy when teams who NEEDED someone who played the positions he plays and has decent stats, yet are completely unwilling to pay next to nothing for him. That's the best valuation of DJ that can be made.

kermittheefrog
07-08-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
Contrary to popular belief, most GM's are not idiots. They actually know the game.



EVERY General Manager in the game knew DJ was available. They also knew he could be had for very little, as players designated for assignment are not going to bring a top prospect. So you don't think if a team like the Astros, or maybe even the Cards, who need a middle infielder, would have thrown a C level prospect at the Sox if they wanted DJ? Again, it truly says something about the guy when teams who NEEDED someone who played the positions he plays and has decent stats, yet are completely unwilling to pay next to nothing for him. That's the best valuation of DJ that can be made.

Did this post mean something to anyone else? I can't figure out what he's saying for the life of me because we did trade DJ for next to nothing when we maybe could have kept him around and traded him for something.

Meixner007
07-08-2003, 03:29 PM
couldn't he have refused the assignment and become a free agent...then we would have gotten nothing for him?

voodoochile
07-08-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Did this post mean something to anyone else? I can't figure out what he's saying for the life of me because we did trade DJ for next to nothing when we maybe could have kept him around and traded him for something.

He was pointing out that there was hardly a bidding war going on for DJ's services. Thus obviously many people who run baseball teams concur with the Sox analysis of him.

RedPinStripes
07-08-2003, 04:28 PM
Every team has at least 1 dumb player, but Jiminez screws up enough for 5 people. Some of the errors he made on the field weather it was a routine grounder, a dp, opo up, throwing to the wrong base, or not covering happened all in 1 game it seemed. And i wont even talk about the base running. No team that plans to go to the play offs can offord to have a player this dumb. Carlos Lee is pretty stupid , but Jiminez makes him look like a genius.

This team is better off without him. Other teams called him stupid and lazy. Why didnt the Sox listen?

ilsox7
07-08-2003, 04:40 PM
He was pointing out that there was hardly a bidding war going on for DJ's services. Thus obviously many people who run baseball teams concur with the Sox analysis of him.

Sorry I wasn't clear, but this statement sums up what I was saying.

kermittheefrog
07-08-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He was pointing out that there was hardly a bidding war going on for DJ's services. Thus obviously many people who run baseball teams concur with the Sox analysis of him.

There isn't going to be a bidding war for a guy who was just designated for assignment. When you designate a guy for assignment you throw away all your leverage because you've committed to getting rid of him in some form or fashion. If the Sox at least pretended they were interested in keeping Jimenez around they could create some leverage for a trade.

voodoochile
07-08-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
There isn't going to be a bidding war for a guy who was just designated for assignment. When you designate a guy for assignment you throw away all your leverage because you've committed to getting rid of him in some form or fashion. If the Sox at least pretended they were interested in keeping Jimenez around they could create some leverage for a trade.

Sure, but the fact remains. This guy supposedly has value, yet no one offered to beat this offer. I realize that when the guy is about to be cut loose, it makes the offers smaller, but if this guy had some greater value, one would think that SOMEONE would have stepped up with an AAA starter or something. Yet, it didn't happen.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-08-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
There isn't going to be a bidding war for a guy who was just designated for assignment. When you designate a guy for assignment you throw away all your leverage because you've committed to getting rid of him in some form or fashion. If the Sox at least pretended they were interested in keeping Jimenez around they could create some leverage for a trade.

I cannot believe I'm reading this. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting KW was supposed to put the Mets on ice while maximizing the trade value of D'Angelo Jimenez? You are aware that MLB has strict rules about the number of ballplayers you're allowed to carry on the roster, right? I'm guessing you're in favor of juggling the roster in the interim period, too? Nevermind that the Sox have declared they are going for it in '03 because it is July and the division title is clearly there to be taken. Maybe Graffanino can play the outfield, right?

We're entering a really bizarre area. Not only are people honestly asserting that there is a REAL difference between keeping DJ vs. Harris, but now they're in favor of HOLDING UP TRADES with other teams to make this (presumably) huge difference work out to our favor.

Scary... truly scary.

kermittheefrog
07-08-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I cannot believe I'm reading this. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting KW was supposed to put the Mets on ice while maximizing the trade value of D'Angelo Jimenez? You are aware that MLB has strict rules about the number of ballplayers you're allowed to carry on the roster, right? I'm guessing you're in favor of juggling the roster in the interim period, too? Nevermind that the Sox have declared they are going for it in '03 because it is July and the division title is clearly there to be taken. Maybe Graffanino can play the outfield, right?

We're entering a really bizarre area. Not only are people honestly asserting that there is a REAL difference between keeping DJ vs. Harris, but now they're in favor of HOLDING UP TRADES with other teams to make this (presumably) huge difference work out to our favor.

Scary... truly scary.

Wow I read through what I wrote a few times and I never saw anything about not making the trade for Alomar. You keep Jimenez around on the bench where he is a better hitter than Harris anyway and you let Harris workout his sub .200 BA problems in the minors. How does that hurt the Sox?

ilsox7
07-08-2003, 08:06 PM
I think the point people are missing is that DJ had apparently worn out his welcome in the Sox clubhouse, along with all of his mental errors. A couple of weeks back, a Sox columnist (maybe Phil Rogers) said he talked to a couple of players and they told him that "Klesko was right." And add to that Frank's comments about things not going DJ's way the last month (referring to off the field stuff). That's why he is gone.

RedPinStripes
07-08-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Wow I read through what I wrote a few times and I never saw anything about not making the trade for Alomar. You keep Jimenez around on the bench where he is a better hitter than Harris anyway and you let Harris workout his sub .200 BA problems in the minors. How does that hurt the Sox?

Whenever Jiminez gets on base ther's room for mental mistakes.

Daver
07-08-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Whenever Jiminez gets on base ther's room for mental mistakes.

There is no stat for stupid baseball play,unfortunetly.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-08-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Wow I read through what I wrote a few times and I never saw anything about not making the trade for Alomar.

Read it yourself, Kermie. You wrote:
There isn't going to be a bidding war for a guy who was just designated for assignment. When you designate a guy for assignment you throw away all your leverage because you've committed to getting rid of him in some form or fashion.

We wouldn't have designated ANYBODY for assignment (least of all the great D'Angelo Jimenez), if we hadn't completed the trade for Alomar. Yet above you're suggesting it was a mistake to do just that.

THINK about what you're saying here.

Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You keep Jimenez around on the bench where he is a better hitter than Harris anyway and you let Harris workout his sub .200 BA problems in the minors. How does that hurt the Sox? [/B]

Harris and Jimenez DO NOT play the same positions. They aren't equals, Kermie. How many back up shortstop/secondbasemen are the Sox suppose to leave hanging around on the roster? We've already got Alomar, Valentin, and Graffanino AHEAD of Jimenez on the depth chart.

Based on what you write above, I guess YOU don't have any problem with dead weight on the roster. Fortunately for the rest of us, the Sox disagree and are pulling out all the stops to win the '03 division title precisely because it is so OBVIOUSLY winnable.

Finally, what I find most amusing about your protestations. You tell us how stupid it is for the Sox to trade Jimenez after designating him for assignment (albeit for no reason except trading for the infinitely superior Roberto Alomar), claiming we've lost our negotiating leverage. Then you spin on a dime and completely ignore the obvious lack of negotiating leverage the Sox would have by keeping a THIRD STRING shortstop/secondbasemen on the roster. How dumb do you take the rest of us to be? For that matter, how dumb do you take every other league GM to trade something marginally more valuable than a AA prospect for a three-time loser with a bad reputation? Let's get real...

...and all of this because you think there is a RELEVANT difference between keeping Jimenez vs. Harris. Next please present your convincing evidence for how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin.

RedPinStripes
07-08-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by daver
There is no stat for stupid baseball play,unfortunetly.

LOL!

MarkEdward
07-08-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
[B]


We wouldn't have designated ANYBODY for assignment (least of all the great D'Angelo Jimenez), if we hadn't completed the trade for Alomar. Yet above you're suggesting it was a mistake to do just that.

THINK about what you're saying here.

Here's was Kermit's point was (I think): Kermit was OK with trading for Alomar. HOWEVER, instead of DFAing Jimenez, we could have sent Harris to AAA. By DFAing Jimenez, we lost any opportunity of getting anything good for DJ in a trade.

Harris and Jimenez DO NOT play the same positions. They aren't equals, Kermie. How many back up shortstop/secondbasemen are the Sox suppose to leave hanging around on the roster? We've already got Alomar, Valentin, and Graffanino AHEAD of Jimenez on the depth chart.

How many center fielders are the Sox supposed to have on the roster? They already have Rowand and Everett (Ordonez too).

Based on what you write above, I guess YOU don't have any problem with dead weight on the roster. Fortunately for the rest of us, the Sox disagree and are pulling out all the stops to win the '03 division title precisely because it is so OBVIOUSLY winnable.

How in the world is Willie Harris not dead weight? He's fast, but how many times have we needed a pinch-runner in the late innings this year? Not enough to warrant keeping a player with a .220 OBP on the roster.

Oh, and by the way, Useless D'Angelo went 1-3 with a walk and run today. Jesus H. Alomar went 0-4.

Finally, what I fine most amusing about your protestations. You tell us how stupid it is for the Sox to trade Jimenez after designating him for assignment (albeit for no reason except trading for the infinitely superior Roberto Alomar), claiming we've lost our negotiating leverage. Then you spin on a dime and completely ignore the obvious lack of negotiating leverage the Sox would have by keeping a THIRD STRING shortstop/secondbasemen on the roster. How dumb do you take the rest of us to be? For that matter, how dumb do you take every other league GM to trade something marginally more valuable than a AA prospect for a three-time loser with a bad reputation? Let's get real...

By not DFAing DJ, it at least gives other GMs the impression that we were going to keep him on our roster. We lose *all* leverage by DFAing him.

Edit: Sorry for posting for you Kermit. I apologize if I misinterpreted any of your ideas.

ilsox7
07-08-2003, 10:07 PM
Oh, and by the way, Useless D'Angelo went 1-3 with a walk and run today. Jesus H. Alomar went 0-4.

One game is a huge sample size. Alomar has been quite good since he came here. Let's just hope he's here in August.

RedPinStripes
07-08-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
One game is a huge sample size. Alomar has been quite good since he came here. Let's just hope he's here in August.

And Alomar got to at least 2 ball today that Jiminez wouldnt stand a chance on.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-08-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Here's was Kermit's point was (I think): Kermit was OK with trading for Alomar. HOWEVER, instead of DFAing Jimenez, we could have sent Harris to AAA. By DFAing Jimenez, we lost any opportunity of getting anything good for DJ in a trade.



How many center fielders are the Sox supposed to have on the roster? They already have Rowand and Everett (Ordonez too).



How in the world is Willie Harris not dead weight? He's fast, but how many times have we needed a pinch-runner in the late innings this year? Not enough to warrant keeping a player with a .220 OBP on the roster.

Oh, and by the way, Useless D'Angelo went 1-3 with a walk and run today. Jesus H. Alomar went 0-4.



By not DFAing DJ, it at least gives other GMs the impression that we were going to keep him on our roster. We lose *all* leverage by DFAing him.

Edit: Sorry for posting for you Kermit. I apologize if I misinterpreted any of your ideas.

Mark, this would be a positively BRILLIANT retort if only you and Kermie would FINALLY come clean about one obvious fact:

I'm not the one suggesting it will make a difference whether Harris or Jimenez was kept as the 25th man. THAT POSITION IS THE ONE YOU HAVE TAKEN.

You want to make a case for how foolish all of us are for disagreeing with you, you had better start by explaining how ANY 25th man is worth the time and effort you and the rest of the gang that couldn't shoot straight seems hellbent to prove.

I can assure you, suggesting it would be more prudent to either hold up the Alomar trade, or NOT lose negotiating leverage with a third string secondbasemen is NOT the way to win this argument.

Now, by all means, please carry on.

pearso66
07-08-2003, 11:00 PM
Even if we kept D'ang up at the majors, our trade leverage would still be NOTHING. Every team knows we just aquired(sp?) Alomar. Right there takes away any leverage we could have had. Plus they all know his past. I'm glad to see the guy gone. I stood up for him a couple times, but then when i noticed his "brain farts" happened almost every other game, i realized there is no excuse for him.

Yes we did keep willy as a 3rd string 2nd baseman, but he is also the 3rd string CF. Which means he can play either, and lately, I have seen him play both pretty well. D'angelo could only play 2nd, and he showed, even that wasn't very well.

And for sending Harris down to work on his average in AAA, he was hitting what, .430 there? Obviously he can hit, he is just having troubles right now on the major league roster. I believe Rowand was hitting just as bad as Harris up until recently, and this tear he is on WILL end. Yet I hear many people saying we shouldn't have traded for Everett because we had Rowand. I don't get why you would want Rowand but not Harris, when they are pretty much one in the same, except harris is faster, and rowand has a little more power.

MarkEdward
07-08-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Mark, this would be a positively BRILLIANT retort if only you and Kermie would FINALLY come clean about one obvious fact:

I'm not the one suggesting it will make a difference whether Harris or Jimenez was kept as the 25th man. THAT POSITION IS THE ONE YOU HAVE TAKEN.

You want to make a case for how foolish all of us are for disagreeing with you, you had better start by explaining how ANY 25th man is worth the time and effort you and the rest of the gang that couldn't shoot straight seems hellbent to prove.

I can assure you, suggesting it would be more prudent to either hold up the Alomar trade, or NOT lose negotiating leverage with a third string secondbasemen is NOT the way to win this argument.

Now, by all means, please carry on.

I tried responding to your post point-by-point, but I just couldn't. Maybe I'm really dense, but I still don't understand what you're arguing for. From what I gathered, you're saying that doesn't matter who our 25th man is, right? In other words, it doesn't matter if Harris or Jimenez was that 25th man because he wouldn't make much of a difference, right? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

Here are my points:
1. Trading for Alomar is/was redundant. Jimenez and Alomar are about the same fielding-wise, and Jimenez is the better hitter so far this year.
2. Since we traded for Alomar, then it was stupid to DFA Jimenez. If Jimenez is kept on the Sox, it at least gives the impression that he is still valuable to us. Since we DFAed him, however, he lost ALL of his trade value because he would've become a free agent after ten days.

I'd really like to continue this discussion if only to understand your points. If I misunderstood you in any way, please correct me. Also, you seem to be saying that Kermit and I are somehow "twisting the facts." In what way are we doing this?

pearso66
07-09-2003, 12:17 AM
Alomar and Jimenez are not even in the same league when it comes to fielding. Alomar has more range, without the lazyness or brain farts.

kermittheefrog
07-09-2003, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by pearso66
Alomar and Jimenez are not even in the same league when it comes to fielding. Alomar has more range, without the lazyness or brain farts.

Maybe when Alomar was 25 but right now he's 35 and has lost a step...

PaleHoseGeorge
07-09-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I tried responding to your post point-by-point, but I just couldn't. Maybe I'm really dense, but I still don't understand what you're arguing for. From what I gathered, you're saying that doesn't matter who our 25th man is, right? In other words, it doesn't matter if Harris or Jimenez was that 25th man because he wouldn't make much of a difference, right? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

Thank you for a civilized response. My responses below.

Originally posted by MarkEdward
Here are my points:
1. Trading for Alomar is/was redundant. Jimenez and Alomar are about the same fielding-wise, and Jimenez is the better hitter so far this year.

I disagree. Alomar is far the superior secondbasemen. In fact, if Jimenez was all the secondbasemen you say he is, the Sox wouldn't have been auditioning DJ at third base (without success) before Alomar's arrival. If you honestly believe Jimenez is a superior secondbasemen, then I'll need more proof than what you're providing here.

Originally posted by MarkEdward
2. Since we traded for Alomar, then it was stupid to DFA Jimenez. If Jimenez is kept on the Sox, it at least gives the impression that he is still valuable to us. Since we DFAed him, however, he lost ALL of his trade value because he would've become a free agent after ten days.

Your beef isn't with me. It's with MLB and the New York Mets. The Sox had to pull the trigger on the deal when the Mets agreed to it--not a moment sooner, and not a moment later. Having made the deal, MLB requires the Sox to clarify who is on the 25-man roster. The Sox aren't allowed to carry 26 guys. Jimenez was odd-man out. I doubt any ballplayer selected as the 25th man--whether it be D'Angelo Jimenez and Willie Harris today, or Kevin Beirne or Jeff Abbott in the past--can ever make a significant contribution to a team. Yeah, call me crazy.

They are by definition role players and fill small needs. That's why I think it is foolish to waste such effort defending one over another. I also think it is foolish to suggest we should leave a 25th man hanging around on the roster for no other reason than to maximize his trade potential beyond the AA pitcher we in fact got before outright releasing him. We have enough dead wood on our roster already, spelled K-O-N-E-R-K-O.

maurice
07-09-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I doubt any ballplayer selected as the 25th man--whether it be D'Angelo Jimenez and Willie Harris today, or Kevin Beirne or Jeff Abbott in the past--can ever make a significant contribution to a team. . . .

I also think it is foolish to suggest we should leave a 25th man hanging around on the roster for no other reason than to maximize his trade potential beyond the AA pitcher we in fact got before outright releasing him. . . .

These two statements are inconsistent. If the identity of the 25th man is essentially irrelevant, there's no harm in keeping "deadwood" on the roster for the purpose of increasing his trade value. KW did something analogous when he kept three catchers on the roster out of spring training, until he was sure that Deadwood Josh Paul could clear waivers. As a result, the Sox kept Paul as insurance for the inevitable Alomar injury. Once KW was able to get a better insurance policy at catcher, he let Paul walk. Keeping D'Ang on the 25-man and demoting Harris until D'Ang could be traded certainly would not have held up the Mets deal in any way, as Kermie has illustrated.

That being said, I agree with the move for a very different reason. The purpose of KW's recent moves is to help the Sox win THIS SEASON. Alomar currently represents an upgrade over D'Ang. I gather from media reports (especially Frank's comments) that D'Ang was a problem in the clubhouse, and that KW decided to DFA him to get him out of there ASAP. There's no question he lost trade leverage by doing this, but he may have strengthened the clubhouse for the stretch run. I'd been hoping for a shakeup for months, so I can't complain. This team really needed a kick in the rear to compete this season.

:bandance:
"And also a little help from me."

MarkEdward
07-09-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Thank you for a civilized response. My responses below.

I disagree. Alomar is far the superior secondbasemen. In fact, if Jimenez was all the secondbasemen you say he is, the Sox wouldn't have been auditioning DJ at third base (without success) before Alomar's arrival. If you honestly believe Jimenez is a superior secondbasemen, then I'll need more proof than what you're providing here.

Well, I guess you and I may have to agree to disagree on the values of Jimenez and Alomar. This year, Jimenez is beating Alomar in every conceivable offensive stat. Defensively, Alomar has the better range but Jimenez leads in zone rating.

Also, Jimenez is a lot younger. Many think that Alomar's falling OBP and SLG was due to playing with the New York Mets. I don't buy that. In my opinion, I think it's old age setting in.

Your beef isn't with me. It's with MLB and the New York Mets. The Sox had to pull the trigger on the deal when the Mets agreed to it--not a moment sooner, and not a moment later. Having made the deal, MLB requires the Sox to clarify who is on the 25-man roster. The Sox aren't allowed to carry 26 guys. Jimenez was odd-man out. I doubt any ballplayer selected as the 25th man--whether it be D'Angelo Jimenez and Willie Harris today, or Kevin Beirne or Jeff Abbott in the past--can ever make a significant contribution to a team. Yeah, call me crazy.

I'd agree that a 25th man isn't extremely important, but you must look at the way Manuel uses his bench. Unlike a 25th man on another team, a Sox 25th man will get a fair share of plate appearances. So Willie Harris, who should be only used for pinch-runner duties, will start once or twice a week.

Also, Jimenez could've been valuable to the team, even as a 25th man. Alomar can't hit lefties, while DJ put up a .732 OPS against lefties. A DJ-Alomar platoon would've been great.

guillen4life13
07-09-2003, 02:26 PM
Forgive me for not knowing this, but could someone explain it to me?

Why didn't the Sox option D'Angelo Jimenez to AAA?

I know this is a stupid question, but I guess this would offer me an explanation for a lot of this baseball economics stuff.

boog_alou
07-09-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Forgive me for not knowing this, but could someone explain it to me?

Why didn't the Sox option D'Angelo Jimenez to AAA?

I know this is a stupid question, but I guess this would offer me an explanation for a lot of this baseball economics stuff.
I believe he was out of options. You get three option years and between SD and CHI, he exhausted his option years.

delben91
07-09-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Forgive me for not knowing this, but could someone explain it to me?

Why didn't the Sox option D'Angelo Jimenez to AAA?

I know this is a stupid question, but I guess this would offer me an explanation for a lot of this baseball economics stuff.

I'm not certain, but I believe that D'Angelo was out of minor league options. Thus, Jimenez was given the choice of accepting assignment at AAA, or rejecting it. He rejected it, and by doing so, the Sox had 10 days to waive or trade him. I could be way off on some or all of these points though, but that's my rough understanding.

guillen4life13
07-09-2003, 02:37 PM
Thanks for clarifying guys.