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B. Diddy
07-06-2003, 03:48 PM
Did anyone read this in the Southtown today?

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/arvia/x06-ard1.htm

doublem23
07-06-2003, 03:51 PM
Looks like the Tribune will just have to "sweep this under the carpet."

MarqSox
07-06-2003, 04:06 PM
The Daily Herald reported it, but was much less critical.

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_story.asp?intID=3780877

Fridaythe13thJason
07-06-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
The Daily Herald reported it, but was much less critical.

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_story.asp?intID=3780877

"Theorizes on handling the heat?"

That's a cute little headline. There would've been some interesting heat had a white manager said something like "Well, my black guys play better in the day."

hose
07-06-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Looks like the Tribune will just have to "sweep this under the carpet."


LOL !!!!


Where's Hangar 18 ? he would be all over them.

B. Diddy
07-06-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
"There would've been some interesting heat had a white manager said something like "Well, my black guys play better in the day."

Gotta love double standards... or maybe triple standards, in this case...

:jerry
"I'm glad I'm not that stupid... it would've on the front page of the Cubune!"

duke of dorwood
07-06-2003, 04:29 PM
He's just another snake oil salesman hiding behind race. The fact is its true, they love the heat. But my saying it makes it racial. Him saying it is "just Dusty".

Crap on him, the Tribune and anyone who chided Jimmy the Greek and tolerates this brother clown and Reggie White.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-06-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
He's just another snake oil salesman hiding behind race. The fact is its true, they love the heat. But my saying it makes it racial. Him saying it is "just Dusty".

Crap on him, the Tribune and anyone who chided Jimmy the Greek and tolerates this brother clown and Reggie White.

While it may certainly be true that Latin players who were born in tropical, hot places may enjoy the heat, there is no reason whatsoever to think that players of dark complexion have it any easier in the heat.

MarqSox
07-06-2003, 04:45 PM
In defense of the Cubune, Rick Morrissey did take Baker on today, although he too was pretty soft on him.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-030705morrisseycolumn,1,7706072.column?coll=cs-home-headlines

valposoxfan
07-06-2003, 06:04 PM
How come people can't see through this guy?? He is very shady everyone. From getting mad at every other team in the Majors for celebrating, to making an outrageous claim about race, this man is an idiot. I've had enough of people letting things slide with him because he apparently is the managing messiah. I am sick of it. I have no respect for this man, period.

WhiteSox = Life
07-06-2003, 06:10 PM
Not to mention, he's not even that great as a manager. Look at the teams he had in San Francisco. Those were some really good teams and you didn't have to do much besides pencil in the lineup, let the rotation turn and then bring in a good bullpen with an excellent closer.

He helped lose the World Series for the Giants, clearly.

RKMeibalane
07-06-2003, 07:19 PM
Baker's an idiot. That's all I have to say.

Viva Magglio
07-07-2003, 11:20 AM
You can bet that the race-baiting Mike North will have a lot to say about this.

duke of dorwood
07-07-2003, 11:26 AM
Hey Dusty, maybe blacks cant manage in the cold

Up yours.

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 11:26 AM
If you want the scientific explanations for differing skin colors, I can give them to you. First off, the development of skin color occurred in an evolutionary phase over the course of around 10,000 years, we believe. This had everything to do with the particular environment one was win for that given period. While the earliest humans were in fact a darker complexion (because we believe they came out of what is now Africa/Middle East --- Ethiopia), because of their equator surroundings, they maintained an advantage of having a dark colored skin which is less penetrable by light and need not use light to make vitamin D, an essential vitamin for the body which can be produced by exposure to the light. So, it was better to have darker skin in order a) not get burned b) possibly blend in with your environment during the hunt and c) you didn't need the vitamin D because you were always in the sun.

Meanwhile, the development of fairer skin is thought to come from the need for Vitamin D because of less exposure to the sun --- thus less pigment blockers in the skin. Most of the time further from the equator it would get very cold and layers of clothing would have to be warm, so fairer skin would be advantageous for the creation of more vitamin D.

Now, it gets interesting. All the traits that we have (or are disposed to now genetically) were determined a LONG time ago. Right now, it's all about environment, less about genetics (especially in terms of dealing with heat, etc.). A few things to think about are the theories that state that the farther you get away from the equator, the more intelligent you are because you had to find ways to get food in the winter, to build houses and keep from freezing to death, etc, whereas around the equator all you have to do is eat to survive. Also, nearer the equator in many lands would be more land predators so a development of physical characteristics for speed and fast twitch fibers woudl be accentuated, while in the other lands endurance would be favored. These theories would seem to indicate that in general a lighter skinned person would be more intelligent and a darker skinned person would be more apt to be faster, etc.

Location then would relate to culture and the differences among them. Obviously, most germanic anglo groups are considered extremely logical in their thought and culture, whereas equator groups are though to be more advanced in emotional, shamanistic, and other unquantifiable aspects.

The crazy thing now is that groups have changed so much since that early time it is nearly impossible to say someone is all of something or another thing. Race has changed so much that in my opinion it's all bullcrap. For example, 70+% of all african americans have what is considered "white" blood in them, whatever that means. Mediterranean europeans had connections with northern africa, most latinos have huge genetic ties to Spanish Europeans, obviously, the list is endless.

I'd like to state that I am not giving an opinion in this issue, but rather am just setting forth explanations by others

The whole political idea of race over the years is a total struggle of "oppressors vs. victims" as it has been for the entirety of humanity. Certain people think they are better, and others think they are victims, and both groups draw power from this issue.

As Arvia is saying in that column, I just wish that either people would tell it like it is, or just adhere to the political correctness rule -- not be exempt from responsibility just because you fall into a so-called group and can say whatever you want.

I hope this wasn't too boring or long, guys. :?:

Gumshoe

voodoochile
07-07-2003, 11:43 AM
Also, nearer the equator in many lands would be more land predators so a development of physical characteristics for speed and fast twitch fibers woudl be accentuated, while in the other lands endurance would be favored. These theories would seem to indicate that in general a lighter skinned person would be more intelligent and a darker skinned person would be more apt to be faster, etc.

*****! What creditable scientist actually put forth this load of hooey?

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 01:19 PM
Yes, it might be funny to you. Of course scientists wouldn't go on RECORD saying this, but the fact of the matter is that it makes sense, even if you don't agree with it (I'm not saying I do agree or disagree).

Obviously, I knew that when I wrote that it would be slightly controversial, but I'm not biased, or racist, or anything. Just looking for objective fact. Voodoo, would you say that "blacks" are faster, by and large, than "whites"?
I'd like to hear your answer?

Of course, don't just read what voodoo quotes because there is far more in my post that deals with reasonable analysis.

Gumshoe

B. Diddy
07-07-2003, 01:30 PM
Obviously, people of difference races are not biologically equivalent. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that Dusty is not a biochemist and knows very little about this subject. For him to bring it up during a press conference is idiotic and unprofessional.

Spiff
07-07-2003, 01:39 PM
gumshoe you know what you're talking about, i know what you're talking about. it's a taboo nobody likes to discuss for whatever reason. blacks have been shown to be better athletes for reasons involving muscle-twitch fibers and lung capacity, enviroment, etc.

don't feel like you have to prove yourself on this issue, cause some people just aren't going to listen.

maurice
07-07-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
A few things to think about are the theories that state that the farther you get away from the equator, the more intelligent you are because you had to find ways to get food in the winter, to build houses and keep from freezing to death, etc, whereas around the equator all you have to do is eat to survive.

That explains why those Eskimos are sooo much smarter than the Chinese.

A non-white "scientist" might argue that the folks in cold climes must be inherently inferior, since they moved out of the areas where life was so damn easy. If they were really smart, etc., they would have stayed where it was warm. That makes just as much "sense."

Also, nearer the equator in many lands would be more land predators so a development of physical characteristics for speed and fast twitch fibers woudl be accentuated, while in the other lands endurance would be favored.

Why do folks near the equator need to run away from "land predators," if "all [they] have to do is eat to survive"?

Wouldn't intellegence help you avoid "land predators"?

Those Kenyans must have become great distance runners because the lack of "land predators" in Kenya allowed them to accumulate endurance instead of "fast twitch fibers." I always wondered why those really smart Europeans traditionally go on safari there.

It's a good thing that wolves run real slow, or those pokey white folks would have been wiped out.

Obviously, most germanic anglo groups are considered extremely logical in their thought and culture

That explains WWII. Damn, that Hitler was a genius.

Most germanic anglo groups jingoistically consider THEMSELVES to be extremely logical. That doesn't make it so.

Of course scientists wouldn't go on RECORD saying this

Right, you learned it during your top-secret, off-the-record conversations with leading geneticists.

Going on RECORD is one of the main ways an actual scientist distinguishes himself from a crackpot with an opinion. Actual scientists subject their theories to peer review by publishing them in respected journals and subjecting them to informed criticism.

I'm not biased, or racist, or anything.

Gee, I've never heard a racist say that before, but non-racists feel the need to say things like that all the time!

The lady doth protest too much.

Certainly, there is some physical varience among groups from differents parts of the world, but there is no scientific support for any of this cause-and-effect nonsense.

fquaye149
07-07-2003, 02:31 PM
i don't know about any of these athletic questions...they seem like just speculation made after the fact BUT

it is proven that blacks have a higher incidence of anemia and heart disease, and whites have a higher incidence of other diseases which i can't think of off the top of my head...and i think they have a higher incidence of down syndrome...

so it seems from this that we can assume that races are biologically different in SOME ways.

B. Diddy
07-07-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
i don't know about any of these athletic questions...they seem like just speculation made after the fact BUT

it is proven that blacks have a higher incidence of anemia and heart disease, and whites have a higher incidence of other diseases which i can't think of off the top of my head...and i think they have a higher incidence of down syndrome...

so it seems from this that we can assume that races are biologically different in SOME ways.

I'm an analytical chemist (with a research emphasis in bioinorganic chemistry) and have taken a number of biochemistry and bioanalytical chemistry courses. From what I've been taught, I can verify the statement above. People of different races are not biologically equivalent.

For Dusty Baker, who is far from an expert in this field, to make the generalizations that he did shows what an ignoramous he is. It also shows how important science education is.

voodoochile
07-07-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Yes, it might be funny to you. Of course scientists wouldn't go on RECORD saying this, but the fact of the matter is that it makes sense, even if you don't agree with it (I'm not saying I do agree or disagree).

Obviously, I knew that when I wrote that it would be slightly controversial, but I'm not biased, or racist, or anything. Just looking for objective fact. Voodoo, would you say that "blacks" are faster, by and large, than "whites"?
I'd like to hear your answer?

Of course, don't just read what voodoo quotes because there is far more in my post that deals with reasonable analysis.

Gumshoe

No, reasonable analysis has NOTHINTG to do with it. You can provide annecdotal evidence after annecdotal evidence that white folks are "on the whole" smarter than dark skinned folks and when you stack it up with science, it doesn't hold water. Not even close. The same goes for the athletics issue.

I will need actual certifiable evidence to make me believe otherwise on both issues.

raul12
07-07-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, reasonable analysis has NOTHINTG to do with it. You can provide annecdotal evidence after annecdotal evidence that white folks are "on the whole" smarter than dark skinned folks and when you stack it up with science, it doesn't hold water. Not even close. The same goes for the athletics issue.

I will need actual certifiable evidence to make me believe otherwise on both issues.

i think a lot of it has to do with environment (genetics vs. environment argument). States don't spend enough money on inner city schools just like they don't spend enough money on schools in the appalatians. Different races, both uneducated. I think the differences you see in grown-ups has more to do with upbringing than pure genetics. Although ability has something to do with genetics, I have yet to see statistical evidence that the difference between individuals within a race is significant compared to differences between races. that's my two cents.

voodoochile
07-07-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by raul12
i think a lot of it has to do with environment (genetics vs. environment argument). States don't spend enough money on inner city schools just like they don't spend enough money on schools in the appalatians. Different races, both uneducated. I think the differences you see in grown-ups has more to do with upbringing than pure genetics. Although ability has something to do with genetics, I have yet to see statistical evidence that the difference between individuals within a race is significant compared to differences between races. that's my two cents.

Excellent point. Again, this mix of different cultures is more pronounced in America also where many cultures are thrown together. American black culture has long idolized it's sports heros and that is one reason black Americans have a larger than expected statistical showing in large professional sports leagues. It is easy to say, "genetics", but the answer goes much deeper than that...

WhiteSox = Life
07-07-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Excellent point. Again, this mix of different cultures is more pronounced in America also where many cultures are thrown together. American black culture has long idolized it's sports heros and that is one reason black Americans have a larger than expected statistical showing in large professional sports leagues. It is easy to say, "genetics", but the answer goes much deeper than that...

Compared to environment and upbringing, I would say that you can't get much deeper or more complex than genetics...

Of course, that's just my opinion.

:smile:

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 03:21 PM
Maurice, first off I like most of your posts, but this time, you aren't making ANY sense. That last post was pathetic.

Furthermore, I was just offering "explanations or theories", and NEVER did I once even claim to have PROOF of anything. Don't put words into my posts. I just think that people believe that it is OK to say that blacks are better athletes and yet amazingly abhorrent to say that a white might have an innate advantage at anything. Whatever, it doesn't matter. I was just offering reasons why people might think different things.

You can think what you want to think. My personal opinion is that every group when considered as such has intelligent people, athletes, beauty, emotional intelligence, ETC. Some groups have more of certain characteristics than do others. The point is that we are different. Now, if you read my post, you would have recognized that I said that many people nowadays are so mixed that this thing called race is virtually inexistent or can't be quantified. We're better off for this.

However, I would say that the larger than expected statistical showing of blacks in modern athletics is directly correlated to the fact that slaves were SELECTED --- the biggest, strongest, best looking bodies were taken from their homelands. Yes, it's a terrible thing but it's true. This is why the NFL is almost all black ... it's all about size and speed. The other factors like the previous poster's realization that sports stars are idolized in black culture are also have a play in the scheme of things. Baseball is a different story; it's more a skill game. Think about it. While there are great runners from all countries, in sprints, which nation has led the olympics in gold medals, and is virtually the best every year? The United States.

WhiteSox = Life
07-07-2003, 03:30 PM
Race has become so skewed it's unbelievable. In the short amount of time I've been on Earth, there are so many things that can change one's opinion or make them think differently about black, whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a stereotype associated with each race, which I will not name, but you probably know what I mean. In no way am I a racist, but sadly, a lot of races are portrayed a certain way and are seemingly stuck like that as more fuel is added to the fire if you watch the news. And, almost only the bad stuff is shown on the news, too...

Race used to be a beautiful word that meant individuality while meaning everybody else at the same time. Now it's a negative word in many aspects.

I told myself I wasn't going to become involved in this conversation (which has greatly steered from Dusty, btw), but I just wanted to interject with my views, hopefully not too controversial.

Ethnicity is becoming very much the same thing, but that's for the next thread talking about something stupid Dusty said.

:smile:

QueerGirrl
07-07-2003, 03:50 PM
Yikes!!!! Why would he say something like that?!? Even if he truly believes it, why would he say it out loud? He sounds insane! I just want to let everyone here know that I'm a black woman and I can't stand the heat, and it can't stand me either.

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 04:10 PM
Yup, I'm sorry if it got out of hand. Dusty is stupid, too bad there are double standards and he can get away with it.

In any case, suffice to say that race and culture are states of the mind. Obviously, anyone can grow up in any culture and be a part of it. In all situations, the body is the least important of the mind - body - spirit continuum.

Gumshoe

maurice
07-07-2003, 04:36 PM
Gum, I'm very careful not to put words into other folks posts. That's why I quoted your "theories," instead of recharacterizing what you said. You claim that the "theories" make sense, and I provided specific counter-examples. If you don't believe your "theories" are true, then there's no reason for you to be defensive.

Baseless steroetypes cause real-world problems for all "races." For example, even in the last few decades, baseless stereotypes have prevented a number of qualified blacks from playing QB and serving as head coach in the NFL, and prevented good white athletes from playing RB and WR. That's bad for the players and bad for the fans, irresepective of race.

Hangar18
07-07-2003, 04:49 PM
I actually heard some of this on a soundBite, and was gonna
COMMENT on this earlier, but was too busy Voting for Frank,
Heh Heh, but I'll weigh in on this now. I heard what he was
saying, especially about the sunscreen, and black guys being
made for the heat etc etc, and I laughed, because the way the
media was painting this, was that it was CUTE and CHUCKLE-Funny, just Dusty being Dusty, isnt that great....etc etc. I can
take a racial reference here and there, Im not going to say I
would be that Offended, but man....THIS GUY IS IN THE MEDIA, MAKING REALLY INSENSITIVE REMARKS LIKE THIS. Its not like he
was having a drink with these reporters, and made this off the record, he was trying to be CALLOUS, using the idea that well
hey, he's BLACK so he can say whatever he wants. If Jimmy The Greek said what he said, and got Lambasted by the Politically Correct Media because of it (I know Jesse jacksons a Sox Fan, but where is he in THIS Situation?) Why isnt the Media all Over
DUSTY because of this? Wheres Mike Kiley? Theres no way
Dusty is a Hero Mr. Kiley, and Id appreciate it if you didnt make him out to be Funny and Charming to the Media because he Uses the word "HOMIES" more than once when addressing the Media/World. HE doesnt come off Charming to me. He comes off like a BUFFOON is what he does. Those comments are VERY INSENSITIVE, but you know what everyone? Relax its ok.
HES A CUB. HES JUST BEING FUZZY BLUE AND LOVABLE.
What a Load of BS. the Guy is a Bigot.

Gumshoe
07-07-2003, 04:54 PM
Well said Maurice, I agree with your second paragraph there. However, your first paragraph and your attacking a few of the explanations I put forth earlier made little to no sense. Those explanations gave plausible answers to WHY things might be why they are. They didn't make gross generalization/conclusions from themes like:

"Eskimos are smarter than Chinese" (which could be true, who knows, I'm sure you don't)

or
Hitler existed therefore Germans aren't logical people

or
your land predators comment

Those attempts of yours to seemingly "prove" or point something out didn't do anything. They just asked WHY to specific case examples. I wasn't commenting on YOUR examples. I wouldn't claim anything about Northern African citizens because of their dictators, but you did about the Germans. That is totally unfair. I think you see where I come from now. All i was trying ot do was give a possible explanation. If you want me to answer your specific case examples, just shoot them forth. Most often, they'll be too complex to attribute just one thing to them, for certain.

Hangar18
07-07-2003, 04:58 PM
And on top of this, when have we ever heard Jerry Manuel
refer to himself, his policies, or his methods as "BLACK" ??
Never. Thats the one thing we can say we like about JM, he
doesnt use being Black as something funny or a crutch, something to be used whenever the time is right. JM is a person, and addresses everyone that way, the media, Himself, and his players. This is the difference between JM and Moses (JHood on the score calls him Black Moses, which makes me laugh uncontrollably, and I know he doesnt say it in reference to his color, but to the way the Media Follows his every word. Hilarious)
is that MOSES makes so many distinctions, and references to
being black and Homies, and what homies do etc etc. Does the world really need that? Its not so bad maybe, but man, I think i like the world better when were not referring to each other by stereo-types, and just as people. Why cant he
just be smart and be a role-model ? This, I can say I like JM for.

TornLabrum
07-07-2003, 05:10 PM
Regarding Gumshoe's original post on race and intelligence:

Only one problem with the location/intelligence BS (and that's what it is). The Neanderthals were a different species that evolved in Europe during the ice ages. They lived in those northern climates and apparently were less intelligent in the same ways your sources are crediting Homo sapiens for being intelligent. And in fact, the Neanderthals did just fine until Homo sapiens came along and were more efficient in exploiting their common environment.

I don't think what you're describing has anything to do with intelligence but more in how different cultures go about making a living. There might be less need to develop technologies in tropical areas that there was need for in areas where it is more difficult to survive. The fact that there are doctors, lawyers, and scientists from "backwards" groups in these tropical countries is evidence that it has nothing to do with intelligence but on how that intelligence needed to be used in order to survive.

MarqSox
07-07-2003, 05:18 PM
Dusty getting slammed on SportsCenter NOW!!

maurice
07-07-2003, 05:33 PM
Dude, note my typically extensive use of teal. My alleged "gross generalization/conclusions" were sarcastic responses to the numerous "gross generalization/conclusions" contained in your "theories." If you don't agree with the "theories," I can't see why my sarcastic responses should bother you in the slightest.

Your contention that the democratic election of Hitler and the genocidal/suicidal policies of the Third Reich do not reflect on the relative rational ability of the German people has "Parking Lot" written all over it. I'm not going to expound on this point, but I'm sure WSI's resident WWII scholars would have quite a lot to say about that.

Seriously, I doubt that Germans are any more logical than, say, folks from India. I also doubt that folks from India can run any faster than Germans, notwithstanding their proximity to Bengal Tigers. I will also note that the earliest civilizations thrived in areas relatively close to the equator thousands of years before the first city was founded in Germany.

pearso66
07-07-2003, 05:37 PM
Baker is a moron. And this is a double standard that he isn't getting fired or even punished for those remarks. If this had been Tony Larussa making this comment, Jesse Jackson and Reggie White would be all over him, calling for him to be fired, and of course he would be fined a lot, or even yes, fired.
Everybody makes stereotypes, they just aren't stupid enough to make them in a place where they can be put in paper where it can be taken wrong. I do believe he was joking, but that is besides the point. If a white coach would get punished for this, Dusty should also get punished.
Just like where they have to at least interview a minority for a coaching job, what if they only go after 1 person and it is a minority? They should be punished just like they would be punished for not interviewing a minority.

1951Campbell
07-07-2003, 06:23 PM
Oh Dusty, you just gave the Clones about 1,000,000 years of material for email jokes.

Gumshoe
07-08-2003, 10:50 AM
I understand your inquiries. It's all good, maurice. I still think your German thing is way off though. I mean, if you are going to say that, then I could come back with, why does Germany have by far the best economy in Europe and make the best cars and have the best engineers in the world? Those are no doubt facts. There are many reasons behind this as were the many reasons that Hitler came to power. Enough of that, though, it's endless.

Do you believe that some languages are built around different concepts that could lead people to believe in certain ways? Perhaps more spiritual in some cases? Perhaps more concrete? I think so. This doesn't mean other people can't find these things within their own system (which I've said from post 1), it's just that only the really enlightened of each culture can tap into them. The masses are more destined to what they have "inherited". Just some thoughts.

G

maurice
07-08-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Do you believe that some languages are built around different concepts that could lead people to believe in certain ways?

No, but I don't have an adequate background in linguistics to form a solid opinion. I do, however, firmly agree with what Torn had to say. The evidence shows that so-called "advanced" cultures work much harder and more frequently (and thus relax and enjoy life a lot less) than less "advanced" cultures. For example, the extremely "advanced" Japanese salaryman works all the time while pastoralists hardly ever do anything that can remotely be described as "work." This distinction is dictated by environment, not genes.

With respect to Baker, I recently heard his comment that it's okay for him to state conclusions that non-black folks can't say. That's absurd and extremely offensive. A conclusion is either right or wrong. The identity of the person saying it is irrelevant.

moochpuppy
07-08-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Spiff
it's a taboo nobody likes to discuss for whatever reason. blacks have been shown to be better athletes for reasons involving muscle-twitch fibers and lung capacity, enviroment, etc.



Can this be classified as a Jimmy "The Greek" sighting? :smile:

Gumshoe
07-08-2003, 11:29 AM
Maurice:

I respect your opinions. I just think the ideas we are talking about are very complex, although they can be explained in certain ways (and I've offered some thoughts). In any case, they don't really matter, so I won't make a big deal out of it or pursue it. Plus, it's always hard to talk about this stuff on message boards. Forget it, lets go SOX.

Your point about relevancy is correct, but it doesn't address the truth of the situation. If a white manager had said it, he wouldn't just be getting flak for saying something stupid, he would be FIRED. The identity, is, as you rightly say, irrelevant, but the repercussions are very relevant, and that's what people are talking about. It's clear double standard hypocrisy. nevertheless, I never take one thing a person says and demonize them. That is stupid. It's just a knock on Dusty's character that he would even mention stupid stuff like that. He's starting to sound like a real moron with this new age "homie this, my boy that" bullcrap. No wonder he got caught by the IRS ... he doesn't think all the time.

G