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Blueprint1
07-05-2003, 08:21 PM
This team has no heart at all. To me seems like they really do not care if they win. The only teams they get up for are the top teams. These are games we had down as automatic series wins. Look now we have to avoid the sweet tomorrow. By the way I think we know why Texas made that trade. Now we have another guy that can't hit.

Konerkoholic
07-05-2003, 08:26 PM
I don't think the Sox lack heart anymore. I saw effort on the part of the players. But the manager has to get the team ready for the game. That means not sitting your best hitter. It also means making sure the team treats every game like it was against the Twins. There was no clear game plan. Hitters were swinging away first pitch after a walk. Guys were fishing at mediocre stuff. Chalk this one up to JM.

MarkEdward
07-05-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
Chalk this one up to JM.

So it was Manuel's fault that the Sox couldn't score with the bases loaded and nobody out?

Konerkoholic
07-05-2003, 08:31 PM
You're right, MarkEdward. Only part of it is his fault. I give more blame to Olivo. Again, worst at bat ever, plus he made a dumb decision later on that led to the everntual third and winning run.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So it was Manuel's fault that the Sox couldn't score with the bases loaded and nobody out?

No, it's Jerry Manuel's fault for tinkering with a line up that was on a tear. It's also Jerry Manuel's fault for benching his #4 hitter for no apparent reason besides giving him a day of rest.

The White Sox do not score enough runs for Jerry Manuel to play "what if" 162 times. He's hurting the ballclub for NO good reason.

How could Manuel possibly know which line ups work and which ones don't? He nevers sticks with one long enough to find out.

:jerry
"It's very important that we get the 25th man on the bench into a groove. That's when I know we'll have it all together for a drive to the finish!"

:ohno
"We'll all be dead before that happens."

MarkEdward
07-05-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
No, it's Jerry Manuel's fault for tinkering with a line up that was on a tear. It's also Jerry Manuel's fault for benching his #4 hitter for no apparent reason besides giving him a day of rest.


Players aren't robots. They do need days off once in a while.

bmwal
07-05-2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So it was Manuel's fault that the Sox couldn't score with the bases loaded and nobody out? Yeah it was his fault There is a thing in Baseball caled pinch hitting

Konerkoholic
07-05-2003, 08:48 PM
It seems these off-days have been a little more frequent than once in a while. Maggs isn't an old veteran with bad legs. He's our best hitter.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Players aren't robots. They do need days off once in a while.

Not with the schedule we've been playing. He just got a day off Thursday, Mark! He's getting a 3-day break the end of next week, too.

I mean really, that's about as lame a defense for Manuel's actions as I've heard yet.

duke of dorwood
07-05-2003, 08:51 PM
These guys just had a day off. They only "work' a few hours a day. 1 day off should refresh them enuf that this clown manager doesnt need changes every day.

:firejerry

Lip Man 1
07-05-2003, 08:51 PM
Mark:

The Sox had a day off Thursday. They have another day off Monday.

How many days off do the players need?

Just wondering?

Lip

jeremyb1
07-05-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So it was Manuel's fault that the Sox couldn't score with the bases loaded and nobody out?

well duh. something negative happened and we lost a game, clearly manuel is the only one to blame.

TornLabrum
07-05-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Not with the schedule we've been playing. He just got a day off Thursday, Mark! He's getting a 3-day break the end of next week, too.

I mean really, that's about as lame a defense for Manuel's actions as I've heard yet.

You missed the off day on Monday.

mike squires
07-05-2003, 09:22 PM
I hope Walker asked Mr. Everett if he was going for the fences or trying to hit the ball hard up the middle on that last at bat. all we needed was to tie the game up...to me, it looked like he was going for the fences which usually results in a high pop up to the infield.

ilsox7
07-05-2003, 09:53 PM
One of the signs of a good manager is to keep his team on the same level. This means not playing up or down to your competition. It means being consistent. Was that inning with the bases loaded and no outs all manuel's fault? No. However, all of us have noticed the trend of the Sox to completely suck against no name pitchers. I really have to wonder how much preparation the team puts into scouting these guys. If you watched Jose, TGraf and Olivo that inning, you may have noticed none of them had any clue what they were doing. And preparation for games DOES come back to the manager. Somehting this team does, or does not do, to prepare for games is flawed. And that most definitely is manuel.

Jurr
07-05-2003, 10:21 PM
don't be such f***ing losers. Get off it. Teams lose. It happens. It's pro baseball for God's sake. The season isn't over. Have some tact or somehow ACT like you know about baseball. Every team is a pro team and can beat anyone, regardless of rest, skill, what have you. If you didn't think there'd be a little adjustment period, you're crazy. It's not that big a deal. Two games does not a season make.

TornLabrum
07-05-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
Two games does not a season make.

You're right. But they are enough to put you two games below .500 in two days.

gosox41
07-06-2003, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
don't be such f***ing losers. Get off it. Teams lose. It happens. It's pro baseball for God's sake. The season isn't over. Have some tact or somehow ACT like you know about baseball. Every team is a pro team and can beat anyone, regardless of rest, skill, what have you. If you didn't think there'd be a little adjustment period, you're crazy. It's not that big a deal. Two games does not a season make.

I cn handle losing. I can't handle losing stupidly. It's the little things JM does that make it that much more difficult fort his team to win.

For example, is it easier or harder to win a game without your second best offensive player in the lineup? If that said player is not in the starting line up, is it easier or harder to win a close game in the 7th inning with the bases loaded and 2 outs and pinch hitting the second best offensive player for a guy who is hitting .220?

This is why the JM is a lousy manager. Is Ordonez hurt or sick? Not from what I heard. So why rest him? He had a day off Thursday and one coming Monday. Surely a 28 year old athlete can play 3 games in a row, unless of course JM is manager.

Bob

soxrme
07-06-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Players aren't robots. They do need days off once in a while. Almost every player we have will be off for three days next week. Maggs and Crede were both given"rests" last week. Crede was given the day off so the Jimenez at 3rd experment could be done in front of 45,000 people and we know how that tumned out. He has to play the best players. This tinkering has to stop. He is a moron!

PaleHoseGeorge
07-06-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by soxrme
Almost every player we have will be off for three days next week. Maggs and Crede were both given"rests" last week. Crede was given the day off so the Jimenez at 3rd experment could be done in front of 45,000 people and we know how that tumned out. He has to play the best players. This tinkering has to stop. He is a moron!

You know what is REALLY disturbing about all of this? After Ordonez hits his dinger in the ninth, Manuel probably thinks it was a good idea to have Maggs on the bench. I can just imagine one of his meandering post-game comments...

:jerry
"Well, in terms of the ninth inning, obviously we're pleased with what Magglio brings to the table... having him available off the bench is the sort of thing that adds a whole different dimension to what our offense is capable of.... Maggs gives us more options in the later innings... but we need more production earlier so Maggs can win the game rather than just make it close."

:ohno
"My God, he's an idiot."

:hurt :maggs
"If you're good, you don't play."

:walnuts :weewillie
"And if you're not good, you DO play until you're good."

:jerry
"EXACTLY! And remember--everything I say is meaningless. I'm liable to change my mind with the very next line up card I fill out."

RKMeibalane
07-06-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
You know what is REALLY disturbing about all of this? After Ordonez hits his dinger in the ninth, Manuel probably thinks it was a good idea to have Maggs on the bench. I can just imagine one of his meandering post-game comments...

:jerry
"Well, in terms of the ninth inning, obviously we're pleased with what Magglio brings to the table... having him available off the bench is the sort of thing that adds a whole different dimension to what our offense is capable of.... Maggs gives us more options in the later innings... but we need more production earlier so Maggs can win the game rather than just make it close."

:ohno
"My God, he's an idiot."

:hurt :maggs
"If you're good, you don't play."

:walnuts :weewillie
"And if you're not good, you DO play until you're good."

:jerry
"EXACTLY! And remember--everything I say is meaningless. I'm liable to change my mind with the very next line up card I fill out."

:hurt

"And by the way, I'm gone after this season."

RKMeibalane
07-06-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Jurr
Two games does not a season make.

Thanks for sharing, Yoda. As a result of those two games, the Sox are back under .500. Thank goodness Minnesota and Kansas City lost.

HawkDJ
07-06-2003, 10:51 AM
So far it appears to be another case of new players, same White Sox.

Lip Man 1
07-06-2003, 12:15 PM
Wait it gets even better! This was in today's Chicago Tribune:

"Plus, I've got to find time for Harris, I've got to find time for (Aaron) Rowand, and I've definitely got to find time for Konerko,

Considering all THREE of those guys have had dismal seasons, I'd have to ask Manager Gandhi WHY?

If he concerned that those guys are going to get "mad" at him? LOL

Seriously I read a comment along those lines recently and it was a great point. Manager Gandhi doesn't want to be a leader, he doesn't have the personality that can take people being mad at him. He'd rather be a follower or short of that making sure that everyone likes him.

Again I think it was right on the money and gives some insight into this constant tinkering.

Here's another point, considering the media says that Gandhi is a great guy who gets along with people (in other words a "players" manager) how in the recent Sports Illustrated poll could those same players vote him the 3rd worst manager? (actually the manager they wouldn't like to play for!) Could it be his reputation as a "tinkerer" has caused those same players problems? (i.e. in knowing their roles, having a stable situation etc...) and the players HATE that?

Just wondering.

Lip

Kilroy
07-06-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Wait it gets even better! This was in today's Chicago Tribune:

"Plus, I've got to find time for Harris, I've got to find time for (Aaron) Rowand, and I've definitely got to find time for Konerko,

Considering all THREE of those guys have had dismal seasons, I'd have to ask Manager Gandhi WHY?

Well, Rowand was pretty much in the middle of a nice hot streak when the Everrett trade happened. And I'd rather see Rowand's D in cf than Everett's, so I have no problem with getting him on the field.

Harris is debatable, but he can make some things happen with his speed. And PK has to get some PT eventually. So I don't really find that much to complain about.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-06-2003, 02:15 PM
Here's what I have to ask all the "baseball fans" who constantly complain like little kids whenever we lose...WHEN we make the playoffs, do you really think that it will be IN SPITE of the manager? I've never heard of such a thing in my life.

pudge
07-06-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Here's what I have to ask all the "baseball fans" who constantly complain like little kids whenever we lose...WHEN we make the playoffs, do you really think that it will be IN SPITE of the manager? I've never heard of such a thing in my life.

Well, the Dimaondbacks won a World Series in spite of some horrible managing by Bob Brenly. I guess you are just a "smarter" baseball fan than everyone else on this website, huh?

Fridaythe13thJason
07-06-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Well, the Dimaondbacks won a World Series in spite of some horrible managing by Bob Brenly. I guess you are just a "smarter" baseball fan than everyone else on this website, huh?

Whoa, when did I claim to be smarter? I just think this is the most negative group of people ever. They also tend to get a little bandwagonny when it comes to Firing Jerry. There are some, who I respect, that want to fire him even when we win, but there are a lot who only say things when they lose. That's ignorant to the sport of baseball.

Any specifics on that "horrible job" by Brenly?

pudge
07-06-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC


Any specifics on that "horrible job" by Brenly?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1275052.html

That was Neyer's article after game 7 - you have to get about halfway through before he starts talking about Brenly... But, it doesn't even discuss the sac-bunt debacle that nearly cost them the series vs. the Cardinals... that was actually worse than anything he did in the World Series, IMO... I remember Schilling saying they were lucky as hell to get past St. Louis, and they were. I've never seen a manager do so poorly in October and still win the World Series.

Corkinator
07-06-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
So it was Manuel's fault that the Sox couldn't score with the bases loaded and nobody out?

It's Manuel's fault he didn't pinch hit for Olivo in the sixth with Maggs instead of pinch hitting him to lead off the ninth. I have a question. Do any of you feel you get a better sense of haw a game is managed when you are in attendance? I was at last night's and todays games. Last night you could see Lou Pinella working the game. He had the bullpen working at the right times, he used his bench. If you didn't see Manuel out arguing that call at second, you wouldn't have known he was there. I think Manuel waits for his boys to go deep and save the day.