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View Full Version : Koch: What Might Have Been?


balboner
07-05-2003, 07:42 PM
If the Sox fail to make the playoffs this year, are we going to look back at the July 4th game vs TB and think of where this team could have gone if Koch didnt suck? This team has lost all of its momentum, and look flatter than ever.

Lip Man 1
07-05-2003, 08:42 PM
No....well think about the NINE GAMES (so far) that the Sox have lost after taking a lead into the 7th inning or later.

We'll think about a 12-12 record (so far) against the dregs of baseball Detroit, Cleveland, San Diego and Tampa Bay AFTER STARTING OFF 9-2 AGAINST THEM.

It's not just Koch, it's a "team" effort.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
It's not just Koch, it's a "team" effort.


I agree 100 percent. In fact, that's the reason I find tonight's loss far more disturbing than Koch's blown save yesterday. Our offense was terrible, another great effort by Loaiza was wasted, and Jerry Manuel just keeps tinkering away. Ordonez on the bench? ***!

It's games like tonight's that will kill the Sox. It was a team effort.

TornLabrum
07-05-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I agree 100 percent. In fact, that's the reason I find tonight's loss far more disturbing than Koch's blown save yesterday. Our offense was terrible, another great effort by Loaiza was wasted, and Jerry Manuel just keeps tinkering away. Ordonez on the bench? ***!

It's games like tonight's that will kill the Sox. It was a team effort.

George, I place a lot of this loss squarely on the fact that last night's loss was demoralizing. It was a definite momentum breaker, and based on past history, this club usually responds to such things by reverting to corpseball for several games after that.

RKMeibalane
07-05-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I agree 100 percent. In fact, that's the reason I find tonight's loss far more disturbing than Koch's blown save yesterday. Our offense was terrible, another great effort by Loaiza was wasted, and Jerry Manuel just keeps tinkering away. Ordonez on the bench? ***!

Originally posted by TornLabrum
George, I place a lot of this loss squarely on the fact that last night's loss was demoralizing. It was a definite momentum breaker, and based on past history, this club usually responds to such things by reverting to corpseball for several games after that.

Hal and George, I think you're both right. First of all, last night's game was demoralizing. The Sox had played extremely well up to that point, and to lose a game they had in the bag was just awful. However, Jerry Manuel didn't help things when he made out the lineup card for tonight's game. As a result of his tinkering, the team turned in a lackluster performance.

The Sox came into tonight feeling badly about the one that got away. As the manager, it is Manuel's responsibility to see that his team has a good chance to win every night. Yet, he left Ordonez and Crede out of the lineup, just so he could Harris more at-bats. What was he thinking?

So what happened? Without Ordonez in the lineup, other guys started pressing. Carlos Lee is once again trying to pull everything, and it shows. He was awful this evening. Frank had two doubles, but one wonders what might have happened had he not struck out twice against Sosa with men on base. Daubach was awful in the cleanup spot, and Miguel Olivo hasn't been right since he hit that grand slam at the Urinal. He must be trying to pull everything, too.

In closing, I think last night's game had an effect on what happened tonight, but this effect could have been minimized if Jerry "The Tinkerer" Manuel had used a lineup capable of scoring runs. He didn't do that, and another loss was the result.

oheeoh...magglio
07-05-2003, 10:32 PM
i don't believe one loss in early july against an out of division team that sucks can cause a team to "lose all momentum." The fact is, this team plays FAR better against good ball clubs because of the motivation factor. When you play a good ball club, that in itself is motivation for the players. When you play a struggling and/or poor ballclub, the manager needs to map out a plan of what to do and how to motivate his team. The sad fact is that these days, players can't always motivate themselves due to things such as high salaries. This in my opinion exposes ghandi part 2's weakness, along with being a tinkerer, which is he is too calm. And for the record, the sox looked just as flat yesterday. I mean 3 runs against tampa bay still sucks, and they left nearly as many guys on base. Yesterday's game never should have come to the point where the koch scratcher could come in and blow it, and then when you leave the bases loaded with nobody out and don't score, you just deserve to lose, simple as that. Fortunately, this loss didn't hurt us in the standings, and with the way buehrle has pitched, hopefully we can bounce back tomorrow.

VeeckAsInWreck
07-05-2003, 11:47 PM
I agree with the previous post. Being that Koch is such an easy target, here are a few more people who would like to blame everything on Billy Koch.

:canseco
"Billy forced me to use steroids"

:shammy
"I never cheated until I met Billy Koch"

:walnuts
"Billy helped me with my swing"


Folks, we all make mistakes. Today the offense blew it, let's hope the team can salvage a win and build up some momentum.

IronFisk
07-05-2003, 11:54 PM
Get a grip! If the Sox are going to a championship team, then it gets over these "bumps". If not, then they don't deserve it anyway! Problem is, Jerry-boy is still at the helm - THAT will prove to be our downfall. :(:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-06-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck
...Being that Koch is such an easy target, here are a few more people who would like to blame everything on Billy Koch...
Folks, we all make mistakes. Today the offense blew it, let's hope the team can salvage a win and build up some momentum.

I agree completely, Wreck. I've noticed a phenomenon that exists throughout baseball between closers and the fans:

Everybody HATES their own closer while COVETING everybody else's.

Even a hall-of-famer like Dennis Eckersley had his detractors. Flubbie fans used to climb all over Lee Smith, and before that Bruce Sutter, too. It's the nature of the closer's job. Everybody expects perfection, and you're a bum if you don't deliver everytime across 162 games.

StillMissOzzie
07-08-2003, 12:59 AM
The part about hating your own closer while coveting the other guy's may be true, but the fact remains that a respecatable closer gets the job done about 80% of the time. Koch is way below this. Respectable closers don't have nearly as many decisions as Koch does, and the only reason his W-L record looks mediocre is because the team has bailed his ass out of at least two blown saves to credit him with a victory!

:gulp:

Iwritecode
07-08-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
The part about hating your own closer while coveting the other guy's may be true, but the fact remains that a respecatable closer gets the job done about 80% of the time. Koch is way below this.

Actually, even including this year's stats, I believe he's at about 85%...

Jurr
07-08-2003, 11:24 AM
Just because the team loses a couple in a row, we're going to be okay. Billy Koch's miscue has cost him a closer's spot, which may help the team in the long run. Don't think the wheels fell off and get so cynical over a couple of losses. This team is now the class of the division, and we're going to win this thing.


:threadsucks

ssang
07-08-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
Just because the team loses a couple in a row, we're going to be okay. Billy Koch's miscue has cost him a closer's spot, which may help the team in the long run. Don't think the wheels fell off and get so cynical over a couple of losses. This team is now the class of the division, and we're going to win this thing.



I agree whole-heartedly. It's better to have Koch blow a game so pathetically now and have the Sox completley yank him from his closing role, rather than trying to keep Koch as closer only to have him implode later on in the season as each passing game becomes more important than the previous one. Imagine if Koch closed through the playoffs (assuming we get there). It would suck!! It's better to find out sooner rather than later that Koch is the worst closer in MLB history. Now what DOES scare me is that Manuel might be to stupid to and willing to give Koch another shot at closing. 9 out of 10 managers would keep Koch as far away as possible from the mound. Manuel, unfortunatley might fall into that 1/10 managers who continues to hand out chances to no avail.

TheRockinMT
07-08-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
The part about hating your own closer while coveting the other guy's may be true, but the fact remains that a respecatable closer gets the job done about 80% of the time. Koch is way below this. Respectable closers don't have nearly as many decisions as Koch does, and the only reason his W-L record looks mediocre is because the team has bailed his ass out of at least two blown saves to credit him with a victory!

:gulp:

I don't want to appear to negative about Koch because if anything he is a battler and I hope will get back to his 100 MPH fastball. However, right now he is not doing the job and the blown saves and losses keep mounting up. We can say after each blown save that one game isn't going to make or break the Sox chances and that's right, but it isn't just one game it's a lot of games and that does hurt. Saving grace is the fact we can look at the Bosox and their blown games and see their still fighting the Yankees so we should be able to keep fighting the Royals and Twins.

fquaye149
07-08-2003, 02:07 PM
are you only talking about saturday when we looked flat?

or are you talking about on sunday when we put up an 11 spot and buehrle cruised. is that when we looked flat?

boog_alou
07-08-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
are you only talking about saturday when we looked flat?

or are you talking about on sunday when we put up an 11 spot and buehrle cruised. is that when we looked flat?
I think maybe he's saying that the Sox looked flat over the course of that series that they lost to one of the worst teams in baseball. It's hard to put a positive spin on that. Maybe they can turn it all around again.