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Irishsox1
07-05-2003, 12:44 PM
ESPN said that the White Sox and Yankees have been talking trade with Flash Gordon going to the Yankees for Jeff Weaver.

Any trade involving Weaver would flat out suck! That guy has his head way up his ass. Not only does the guy blow, he's the jerk that started the 2000 fight against the Sox. I liked the last two trades, but this one would be a terrible trade. The Sox need bullpen help, not to mention a closer.

MarqSox
07-05-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
ESPN said that the White Sox and Yankees have been talking trade with Flash Gordon going to the Yankees for Jeff Weaver.

Any trade involving Weaver would flat out suck! That guy has his head way up his ass. Not only does the guy blow, he's the jerk that started the 2000 fight against the Sox. I liked the last two trades, but this one would be a terrible trade. The Sox need bullpen help, not to mention a closer.

I'm far less concerned about whether we acquire Weaver as I am about giving up Gordon. If Kroch doesn't get his head on straight, we're gonna need Flash to close games for us. Like, today.

voodoochile
07-05-2003, 12:46 PM
Maybe they are going to make Weaver the closer. I don't understand this trade. Sox need bullpen help more than starting help.

Perhaps it is a fly through trade where Weaver then gets dealt for a closer...

B. Diddy
07-05-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
ESPN said that the White Sox and Yankees have been talking trade with Flash Gordon going to the Yankees for Jeff Weaver.

Any trade involving Weaver would flat out suck! That guy has his head way up his ass. Not only does the guy blow, he's the jerk that started the 2000 fight against the Sox. I liked the last two trades, but this one would be a terrible trade. The Sox need bullpen help, not to mention a closer.

This is bad. We're trading a shaky middle reliever that we need as a closer now (because our current closer sucks) for a guy who would be maybe the 5th best starter on our team? No, thanks.

Our only saving grace is that JR might not let KW do it because he won't want to deal with Boras again.

Brian26
07-05-2003, 12:59 PM
I don't get it either. This team doesn't need Weaver. The top 4 starters are just fine right now. You don't use your 5th starter in the playoffs. We do need some bullpen insurance though. Trading Gordon just doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't mind picking up Robin from the Yankees though.

MrX
07-05-2003, 01:06 PM
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/105737940994440.xml
According to the NJ paper it's Gordon and Cotts for Weaver

joecrede
07-05-2003, 01:21 PM
Weaver's got a big longterm contract that I don't think any other team would take on. If the Yankees were willing to pay his contract I'd make the deal, but I don't see Flash being enough to make the Yankees do that.

RKMeibalane
07-05-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by MrX
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/105737940994440.xml
According to the NJ paper it's Gordon and Cotts for Weaver

If Williams makes this trade, he should be fired. Why would he want to undo the good moves he made earlier in the week by doing something stupid?

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2003, 01:37 PM
I'll gladly trade a reliever for a starting pitcher any day of the week. However, as JoeCrede already pointed out, Weaver has a big fat contract. Unless the Yankees are picking up his salary, this trade is questionable. The Sox simply don't have the spare cash lying around while You-Know-Who is still here trying to figure out how to break .200.

RKMeibalane
07-05-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'll gladly trade a reliever for a starting pitcher any day of the week. However, as JoeCrede already pointed out, Weaver has a big fat contract. Unless the Yankees are picking up his salary, this trade is questionable. The Sox simply don't have the spare cash lying around while You-Know-Who is still here trying to figure out how to break .200.

The only good thing I could see coming out of this is that Dan Wright would be moved to the bullpen. Otherwise, I don't want Jeff Weaver on this team. He is extremely overrated, IMO.

JRIG
07-05-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


The only good thing I could see coming out of this is that Dan Wright would be moved to the bullpen. Otherwise, I don't want Jeff Weaver on this team. He is extremely overrated, IMO.


Actually, IMO Weaver's been very good. I don't think he's overrated at all. His road ERA has actually been better than his home ERA the past 3 years, so he's not a product of Comerica's spacious outfield. Good control, good strikeout rate.

This year his stats aren't terrible, he's just giving up a ton of hits. That's something I think is either correctable or just a fluke. His K rate is down a little too. He's still only 26 too.

I'd trade Konerko's fat contract for Weaver's in a heartbeat.

RKMeibalane
07-05-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'd trade Konerko's fat contract for Waever's in a heartbeat.

Konerko I might be willing to part with. Gordon, however, is one of the few reliable pitchers in the Sox bullpen. If Williams wants to accquire Weaver, then he needs to find a way to fill some of the holes in the bullpen. Koch is killing the Sox with his daily mound implosions.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'd trade Konerko's fat contract for Weaver's in a heartbeat.

I agree 100 percent. If Baltimore won't give us Ponson, this deal with the Yankees starts making sense. With Daubach and Thomas hitting, Konerko is worse than worthless. He's Expensive-Taking-PT-From-Guys-Who-Help-Us-Win worthless.

JRIG
07-05-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Konerko I might be willing to part with. Gordon, however, is one of the few reliable pitchers in the Sox bullpen. If Williams wants to accquire Weaver, then he needs to find a way to fill some of the holes in the bullpen. Koch is killing the Sox with his daily mound implosions.

I don't really think we need another starter. That said, if we do aquire Weaver, that would allow Wright to move to the pen and would probably mean Glover gets more work. The guy was lights out from the bullpen last year. As you said, moving Gordon does open a hole that one of those two guys would need to fill. There's no certainty that happens.

RKMeibalane
07-05-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I agree 100 percent. If Baltimore won't give us Ponson, this deal with the Yankees starts making sense. With Daubach and Thomas hitting, Konerko is worse than worthless. He's Expensive-Taking-PT-From-Guys-Who-Help-Us-Win worthless.

The question is, can the Sox find anyone who wants Konerko? With the rumors about his hip constantly swirling, it's a wonder that anyone would be interested in trading for him.

RedPinStripes
07-05-2003, 01:55 PM
Cotts and Gordon for weaver? I dont like this at all. Gordon will be needed around here . We dont have a closer. Well, Jerry Manuel cant figure it out.

TRL
07-05-2003, 02:12 PM
The starters have been giving us quality outings this year. It wouldn't make any sense to trade one of our bullpen guys. You can't win games if you can't close them out.

spanishwhite
07-05-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Cotts and Gordon for weaver? I dont like this at all. Gordon will be needed around here . We dont have a closer. Well, Jerry Manuel cant figure it out.

Hey guy, noone mentioned anything about Cotts.

Talks were halted before when the Yanks tried to get him.

Let's not get crazy. Dont start any silly rumors now.

If Weaver for Gordon has been mentioned, it should be straight
up. The Yanks are desperate for relief and Weaver has no place there.

Chisoxfn
07-05-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Hey guy, noone mentioned anything about Cotts.

Talks were halted before when the Yanks tried to get him.

Let's not get crazy. Dont start any silly rumors now.

If Weaver for Gordon has been mentioned, it should be straight
up. The Yanks are desperate for relief and Weaver has no place there.

I would think that Koch for Weaver would make a lot more sense. Obviously if the Sox deal Tom for Weaver the Yanks are picking up most of Weavers contract, otherwise it wouldn't make sense from Jerry's perspective. The Sox would be adding a ton of payroll.

The only thing I could think of in this deal is they are moving Wright to the closers role and the Yanks turned down a Koch for Gordon swap, evne though that would make a lot more sense financially.

Then you move Wright to the closers role with Weaver starting.

And for those that doubt Weaver, I think your wrong. Weaver is a good pitcher. He still has excellent stuff and will do just fine once he gets away from New York. He's been jumped from rotation to bullpen the entire year and those type of things just don't work, at least not for some pitchers, especially in New York.

joecrede
07-05-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by TRL
The starters have been giving us quality outings this year. It wouldn't make any sense to trade one of our bullpen guys. You can't win games if you can't close them out.

I believe Weaver is signed through '05. If the Yankees are going to pay his salary, which I assume would be the case since Cotts is involved, I think it would be a good gamble for the Sox.

'04 rotation:

Buehrle - Arbitration ($7M?)
Garland - Arbitration ($4.5M?)
Loiaza - $3.5M option
Weaver - $0

Getting a pitcher of Weaver's caliber and paying him nothing, if that is the case, is very tempting.

TheRockinMT
07-05-2003, 02:42 PM
ALL I AN SAY IS LET'S HOPE NOT. READ THE NJ LEDGER STORY LINK AND SEE THAT THE YANKEES DON'T THINK WEAVER CAN WIN AND THEY WANT A GOOD RELIEVER AND RESTOCK THEIR FARM SYSTEM. SO WHAT ARE THE SOX TO GAIN HERE? WE GIVE THE YANKEES WHAT THEY WANT FOR SOMEONE WHO CAN'T WIN AND WE CONTINUE TO LOSE OUR GOOD YOUNG ARMS? I WOULD AGREE TO A KOCH FOR WEAVER TRADE BEING GOOD, BUT NO MORE THAN THAT.

spanishwhite
07-05-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I believe Weaver is signed through '05. If the Yankees are going to pay his salary, which I assume would be the case since Cotts is involved, I think it would be a good gamble for the Sox.

'04 rotation:

Buehrle - Arbitration ($7M?)
Garland - Arbitration ($4.5M?)
Loiaza - $3.5M option
Weaver - $0

Getting a pitcher of Weaver's caliber and paying him nothing, if that is the case, is very tempting.

Where is everbody getting this Cotts thing from. The thread started off saying nothing about it, and it was reported that talks for Weaver originally broke down when Cotts was mentioned.

Even it that was the case, the Yankees would not pay for two other years of additional salary. That isnt even worth the value of Cotts. His huge salary is 4 mil for this year. I think the Sox would pick up 1.5 mil of that. That is not a huge increase. I think it will be Gordon and maybe a C prospect for Weaver.

B. Diddy
07-05-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Cotts and Gordon for weaver? I dont like this at all. Gordon will be needed around here . We dont have a closer. Well, Jerry Manuel cant figure it out.

I agree. If we can't deal for a closer, we will need Gordon. And I'm not a big fan of Gordon in the closing role either...

A Konoerko for Weaver or Koch for Weaver trade would work. All three are playing poorly and are overpaid, but Weaver is more valuable, IMO, because...

(1) Weaver's a starting pitcher and one can never have too many of those. I'd rather have him in the #5 spot than Wright.

(2) Koch is worthless right now. At least Weaver can eat up innings.

(3) We have an excess of players at the 1B/DH positions

jeremyb1
07-05-2003, 02:55 PM
i'd certainly be hesitant to give up gordon as well as he's pitched lately but you have to give up talent to get talent. i think that weaver can be an effective starter and that wright can be almost as good as gordon in the pen. personally i don't see why wright couldn't be our closer once he gets his feet wet.

i dislike giving up cotts but i don't think he'll ever be as good as weaver and if that somehow convinces the yankees to pay the rest of weaver's gigantic contract you certainly have to consider it. personally though i'd rather use this as an opportunity to dump one of our bad contracts in koch or paully as others had mentioned.

OEO Magglio
07-05-2003, 03:24 PM
Flash for Weaver would be terrible, the sox need flash right now, on the other hand if the sox could somehow do Koch for Weaver I think that would be perfect for the sox, then Danny goes to the pen make Flash the closer, I think that would make the sox bullpen and rotation both stronger.

kevingrt
07-05-2003, 03:34 PM
This would be horrible... I hate Weaver and don't want him ever since he became a Yank and stopped playing baseball. And I don't want to get rid of our most consistent reliever when our bullpen falt out sucks!

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2003, 05:02 PM
As I read this thread the skeptic in me keeps saying that today we wouldn't be so damned worried about losing a middle reliever as streaky as Flash Gordon if yesterday Billy Koch had simply earned the save in Tampa Bay.

Getting Weaver fixes the hole the Sox were trying to fill negotiating a trade with Baltimore for Ponson. If the Yankees pay Weaver's salary, I pull the trigger on this deal.

TornLabrum
07-05-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
As I read this thread the skeptic in me keeps saying that today we wouldn't be so damned worried about losing a middle reliever as streaky as Flash Gordon if yesterday Billy Koch had simply earned the save in Tampa Bay.

Getting Weaver fixes the hole the Sox were trying to fill negotiating a trade with Baltimore for Ponson. If the Yankees pay Weaver's salary, I pull the trigger on this deal.

I disagree. To me it seems that you're replacing the Danny Wright hole with the Jeff Weaver hole. No net change. Might as well keep throwing Wright out there.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-05-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I disagree. To me it seems that you're replacing the Danny Wright hole with the Jeff Weaver hole. No net change. Might as well keep throwing Wright out there.

No, now I disagree with you. :smile:

If we get Weaver, we still have Wright as insurance for trouble in the rotation. For example, that horseshoe up Loaiza's tailpipe has got to come out sooner or later, and there is always the threat of injury to starting pitchers. It would be catastrophic to the Sox pennant chances if one of our top-four was lost.

Weaver is insurance against Wright, and Wright is insurance against Weaver, and both are insurance for everyone else. We only need one of them to come through for us this year, and we have both of them back for 2004 when one or both may become expendable for filling another need identified at that time.

<sticks out tongue at Torn>

dickallen15
07-05-2003, 05:51 PM
If Koch was pitching up to expectations, this would be a no brainer except for Cotts, but the Yankees are so desperate for bullpen help, I'm sure you could do it without giving up Cotts. But Koch blows so you can't make this deal unless you have another idea for the bullpen.

guillen4life13
07-05-2003, 06:02 PM
How's about Koch AND Konerko to some team for a really high quality starter?

ilsox7
07-05-2003, 06:20 PM
How's about Koch AND Konerko to some team for a really high quality starter?

You're not gonna get a really high quality starter for those two.

Iguana775
07-05-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by MrX
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/105737940994440.xml
According to the NJ paper it's Gordon and Cotts for Weaver

they can take that trade and stick it up their butt!

Lip Man 1
07-05-2003, 08:10 PM
a lot of "ifs" here...

If Kelly Wunsch is ready to come back...
If the Sox are in the process of picking up another relief pitcher (percival?)

and "if" Koch can somehow get straightend out (or come close), I'd make the deal. Weaver simply can't pitch in new York. When he was with Detroit he pitched well for a bad team and usually gave the Sox real trouble when he faced them.

You can never have enough pitching.

Lip

guillen4life13
07-05-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
You're not gonna get a really high quality starter for those two.

I forgot the teal. I'm about to edit it.

gosox41
07-05-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by MrX
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/105737940994440.xml
According to the NJ paper it's Gordon and Cotts for Weaver

If that deal is made for those players, then my slowly increasing confidence in KW to put together a good trade just crashed and burned.

Bob

gosox41
07-05-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
I would think that Koch for Weaver would make a lot more sense. Obviously if the Sox deal Tom for Weaver the Yanks are picking up most of Weavers contract, otherwise it wouldn't make sense from Jerry's perspective. The Sox would be adding a ton of payroll.

The only thing I could think of in this deal is they are moving Wright to the closers role and the Yanks turned down a Koch for Gordon swap, evne though that would make a lot more sense financially.

Then you move Wright to the closers role with Weaver starting.

And for those that doubt Weaver, I think your wrong. Weaver is a good pitcher. He still has excellent stuff and will do just fine once he gets away from New York. He's been jumped from rotation to bullpen the entire year and those type of things just don't work, at least not for some pitchers, especially in New York.

Let's see here...Danny Wright has a history of struggling in the first inning he pitches before he settles in. There is talk of the Sox making him a releiver. Why would the Sox want a reliever who struggles so much the first inning he's in a game. Especially if there's men on base. As a starter, Wright has a history of settling in after the first inning and pitching better so he can still pitch the Sox into the 6-7 inning.

Bob

TornLabrum
07-05-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
No, now I disagree with you. :smile:

If we get Weaver, we still have Wright as insurance for trouble in the rotation. For example, that horseshoe up Loaiza's tailpipe has got to come out sooner or later, and there is always the threat of injury to starting pitchers. It would be catastrophic to the Sox pennant chances if one of our top-four was lost.

Weaver is insurance against Wright, and Wright is insurance against Weaver, and both are insurance for everyone else. We only need one of them to come through for us this year, and we have both of them back for 2004 when one or both may become expendable for filling another need identified at that time.

<sticks out tongue at Torn>

No, what will happen is that Wright will become Gary Glover, Jr., because Manuel will be afraid to use him due to his usual wildness when he first comes out. He will not be insurance because he will be too rusty from never pitching.

spanishwhite
07-05-2003, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Let's see here...Danny Wright has a history of struggling in the first inning he pitches before he settles in. There is talk of the Sox making him a releiver. Why would the Sox want a reliever who struggles so much the first inning he's in a game. Especially if there's men on base. As a starter, Wright has a history of settling in after the first inning and pitching better so he can still pitch the Sox into the 6-7 inning.

Bob

there is a difference b/t the first inning and seventh inning.

If wright were to come in after, lets say Buehrle, it is two different styles and it would force the hitter to adjust.

If wright were a reliever, teams wouldn't study him so much b/c he wouldn't have a set schedule.

Theoretically his velocity goes up. He also only has to depend on a couple of pitches since he doesn't have to go through the lineup more than once.

And, he couldn't be any worse than he is starting.

StillMissOzzie
07-06-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
How's about Koch AND Konerko to some team for a really high quality starter?

Sorry, there's only one KW out there at the moment!

:gulp:

dougs78
07-06-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
a lot of "ifs" here...

If the Sox are in the process of picking up another relief pitcher (percival?)


Thats the key for me. If we are somehow getting this Percival or Glaus deal (or even just Percival) then I'd be happy to get Weaver. I'd start to worry about what we'd have given up in total after acquiring all those guys, but who knows.


An aside that worries me alot about Weaver is that his contract goes for 2 more years. I'd not be surprised to see the Yanks pick up this years, but my main concern is that bringing in Weaver takes up money for next year and assures us that Colon will not be back. That would piss me off. In effect, it would free up that money for NY to sign him away from us.