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View Full Version : Anyone remember Keith Foulke?


MarkEdward
07-04-2003, 06:56 PM
Yeah, he was good...

Brian26
07-04-2003, 07:00 PM
Well, we've filled the holes at 2b and CF. Now it becomes glaringly obvious that the closer situation needs to be addressed immediately. Either make Gordon or Marte the closer, or go out and get somebody. Koch blew the game tonight. He wasn't effective Wednesday night. He should thank Konerko for saving him from a loss there. He blew the lead in the Cubs game last Friday until Jose saved him. These are all off the top of my head.

RKMeibalane
07-04-2003, 07:02 PM
Memo to Jerry Manuel:

Find someone else to close out games. Koch has been awful lately, and tonight's game is proof of that.

harwar
07-04-2003, 07:05 PM
WHAT THE F#CK!!! Billy Koch must die!!!!!! I'm so sick of this #@%^$$#!*# that i could freakin explode.It looks like the same old White Sox to me.Playoffs? ..don't make me laugh.

OEO Magglio
07-04-2003, 07:13 PM
Well, we've filled the holes at 2b and CF. Now it becomes glaringly obvious that the closer situation needs to be addressed immediately. Either make Gordon or Marte the closer, or go out and get somebody. Koch blew the game tonight. He wasn't effective Wednesday night. He should thank Konerko for saving him from a loss there. He blew the lead in the Cubs game last Friday until Jose saved him. These are all off the top of my head.
Your being to nice to koch don't forget the 11th inning homer by jacque jones last week. HE SUX, we need to make Flash or Damaso the closer on this team.

ssang
07-04-2003, 07:16 PM
Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please ..............................MAKE MARTE OUR CLOSER!

Tragg
07-04-2003, 07:30 PM
Marte was our closer for 1/2 of the season last year - he did fine. Let's not go out and overpay for some "closer", many of whom are no better than what we have.
We had a good one on the team last year and didn't know it (Biddle)- maybe there's another one.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-04-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Marte was our closer for 1/2 of the season last year - he did fine. Let's not go out and overpay for some "closer", many of whom are no better than what we have.
We had a good one on the team last year and didn't know it (Biddle)- maybe there's another one.

I love Marte, but the dumbest move Jerry Manuel made all last season was benching Foulke early and never giving him another shot. That was unconscionable behavior shown towards a pitcher who clearly had recovered his good stuff after the all-star break.

kermittheefrog
07-04-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yeah, he was good...

That may be what his stats say but he can't come through in the clutch.

Lip Man 1
07-04-2003, 08:03 PM
Just wondering..

Weren't the boards filled with the exact same comments after Keith blew two Yankee games? and that crucial Twins game? and the game to the Mariners in the playoffs???

Lip

JRIG
07-04-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
That may be what his stats say but he can't come through in the clutch.

Plus he only threw 90 mph. Closers have to throw really hard. You know, like that Billy Koch guy.

pudge
07-04-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering..

Weren't the boards filled with the exact same comments after Keith blew two Yankee games? and that crucial Twins game? and the game to the Mariners in the playoffs???

Lip

Foulke blew some BIG games, but he would not have blown a game in Tampa Bay. Koch just sucks all around against everyone. I am so sorry I ever got pissed at Foulke, but I knew when we made the deal that Foulke was a better pitcher than Koch. Foulke's 1999 season as a middle reliever was one of the most dominating I've ever seen. Man, I wish we still had him now.

kermittheefrog
07-04-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering..

Weren't the boards filled with the exact same comments after Keith blew two Yankee games? and that crucial Twins game? and the game to the Mariners in the playoffs???

Lip

Well I've never questioned Foulke, I knew he was a great reliever. I can't speak for MarkEdward but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that waffles on players after one particular game. So I'd say even if the board filled up with the exact same comments there are those that have always been firmly in the "Foulke is kickin' rad" camp, myself being one of them.

Interesting note: A year ago today Foulke helped blow a game against another crappy team, the Detroit Tigers. He allowed 3 runs without recording an out and Kelly Wunsch picked up the loss in a 6-5 game.

kermittheefrog
07-04-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Plus he only threw 90 mph. Closers have to throw really hard. You know, like that Billy Koch guy.

Don't forget a closer's mentality. Foulke didn't have that. Koch does, how else could he have saved so many last year?

pearso66
07-04-2003, 09:27 PM
just a little point in defense of Koch. That game against the Cubs where he blew the save, he came in with bases loaded and nobody out, I think he did damn good to only give up 2 runs. Not everyone comes in and is lights out 1,2,3. If that is what you are expecting as a closer, then you'll never have anyone that you want.

RedPinStripes
07-04-2003, 09:48 PM
Foulke also works with a great pitching coah now. Whatever problems he had last year are not half as serious.

JRIG
07-04-2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
just a little point in defense of Koch. That game against the Cubs where he blew the save, he came in with bases loaded and nobody out, I think he did damn good to only give up 2 runs. Not everyone comes in and is lights out 1,2,3. If that is what you are expecting as a closer, then you'll never have anyone that you want.


I'm not exactly sure what this is worth, but I went through the game logs for Koch. In games in which he has either recorded a save, blown save, win, or loss (24 games total, 2 with a decision and blown save):

Koch has faced the minumum number of batters (2 in 2/3 of an inning, 3 in 1 inning, etc.) only 6 times. He has faced more than the minimum 16 times.

QueerGirrl
07-04-2003, 11:53 PM
On one hand I miss Keith and on the other, I remember how bad he was last year. Lord, help KW and JM do the right thing. :(:

Thunderstruck30
07-05-2003, 12:04 AM
Manuel should go up to Koch and tell him that the next time he blows a game he has to shave whatever it is he calls the thing on his chin. Steinbrenner made Giambi cut his hair shorter and trim his facial hair, so Manuel or Reinsdorf should do the same.

Nellie_Fox
07-05-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Thunderstruck30
Steinbrenner made Giambi cut his hair shorter and trim his facial hair, so Manuel or Reinsdorf should do the same. Yeah, Giambi has really been on a tear.

THE_HOOTER
07-05-2003, 12:09 AM
As I remember, Foulke lost his job on Memorial day, or that weekend.

He had blown three saves, and was struggling.

Well, Koch has lost us more games in the first half than Foulke in the last two years-

Just put him on the bench, and put Wirght in the bullpen. Bring up a young arm ,and hope the offense comes through.

Having Koch out there is suicide, and has been all year-does anyone watch him pitch?

He sucks!

VeeckAsInWreck
07-05-2003, 01:07 AM
To play Devil's advocate for all you Koch nay-sayers. Don't get me wrong, I am not happy that he blew the save. But, at least it won't mess him up the next time he is out there.
Koch is not as psychologically sensitive as Foulke was. The next time Koch goes out there he will nail the save and everyone will be back to hoping for a good playoff run in October.

kermittheefrog
07-05-2003, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by VeeckAsInWreck

Koch is not as psychologically sensitive as Foulke was. The next time Koch goes out there he will nail the save and everyone will be back to hoping for a good playoff run in October.

I hate it when people say stuff like that. How the $%#$#%$ do you know how sensitive one ballplayer or another is unless you happen to be very close to both of them? Nonetheless if I have to chose between one guy who is good at getting batters out and another guy who isn't good at getting batters out but is emotionally tough I'm picking the guy who is good at getting batters out.

hose
07-05-2003, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Yeah, he was good...


Keith Foulke is a Oakland A , I don't care or think about him every time Koch blows a save.

Unless this is some kind of "I told you so" thread what's the point? Foulke isn't coming back this season and the Sox do have other capable closers on the team.

The injury to Kelly Wunsch has really limited Manuel . Once Kelly gets going the Sox will be back to having 2 very dependable left handers and Gordon or Marte as a possible closer.

Koch will be moved to a 6th or 7th inning reliever probably for the rest of the year and hopefully his arm will bounce back next season.

I don't think the Sox pen is in dire straights, Rick White is starting to pick it up and overall(besides Koch) the rest have been decent.

TornLabrum
07-05-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by hose
Keith Foulke is a Oakland A , I don't care or think about him every time Koch blows a save.

Unless this is some kind of "I told you so" thread what's the point? Foulke isn't coming back this season and the Sox do have other capable closers on the team.

The injury to Kelly Wunsch has really limited Manuel . Once Kelly gets going the Sox will be back to having 2 very dependable left handers and Gordon or Marte as a possible closer.

Koch will be moved to a 6th or 7th inning reliever probably for the rest of the year and hopefully his arm will bounce back next season.

I don't think the Sox pen is in dire straights, Rick White is starting to pick it up and overall(besides Koch) the rest have been decent.

I can find one reason to mention Foulke. Seems to me that after a few failures to save games, Foulke was benched last year, and wasn't allowed to close again until September, even after he showed that he was "back." Koch deserves to better nor worse treatment than that.

gosox41
07-05-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
Marte was our closer for 1/2 of the season last year - he did fine. Let's not go out and overpay for some "closer", many of whom are no better than what we have.
We had a good one on the team last year and didn't know it (Biddle)- maybe there's another one.

Closers are overrated. All the Sox need to do is demote Koch to mop up duty in the bullpen and begin using Glover a whole lot more.


Bob

gosox41
07-05-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Don't forget a closer's mentality. Foulke didn't have that. Koch does, how else could he have saved so many last year?


Other important stats to look at are scoreless appearances and percent of saves converted.

Bob

hose
07-05-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I can find one reason to mention Foulke. Seems to me that after a few failures to save games, Foulke was benched last year, and wasn't allowed to close again until September, even after he showed that he was "back." Koch deserves to better nor worse treatment than that.


ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. -- Billy Koch escaped reporters after Friday night's stunning 4-3 loss to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

But the struggling White Sox closer could not escape the three-run walk-off homer by Carl Crawford in the bottom of the ninth at Tropicana Field.

Sox manager Jerry Manuel said Koch's future as the team's closer might be in doubt because of his recent troubles, and Tom Gordon or Damaso Marte could replace him.

"You have been on the edge for so long, and now [Koch] finally breaks," Manuel said. "You probably have to try to get better matchups for him—maybe a little earlier in the game."


Looks like it's a done deal.

Bottom line is that Foulke is gone he isn't available to Jerry Manuel. Another pitcher besides Koch will have to get the job done, somebody will step up.

Trades are like ex-girlfreinds, ex-wives, stock, bets, ect....should of could of would of.

jeremyb1
07-05-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering..

Weren't the boards filled with the exact same comments after Keith blew two Yankee games? and that crucial Twins game? and the game to the Mariners in the playoffs???

Lip

well, here's hoping this reinforces the point i've been making for several seasons now. it does NOT matter which situations you blow saves in. foulke was not a bad closer because he "couldn't do it in the clutch" and blew the games against minnesota, the yankees, and against seattle in the playoffs. with the obvious exception of the playoffs, a blown save is a blown save. they always kill your momentum and make for a terrible loss. koch is on pace to save 21 of 29 chances. it doesn't matter which games the closer which pitches well enough to blow the fewest saves is the best period.

JRIG
07-05-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1


well, here's hoping this reinforces the point i've been making for several seasons now. it does NOT matter which situations you blow saves in. foulke was not a bad closer because he "couldn't do it in the clutch" and blew the games against minnesota, the yankees, and against seattle in the playoffs. with the obvious exception of the playoffs, a blown save is a blown save. they always kill your momentum and make for a terrible loss. koch is on pace to save 21 of 29 chances. it doesn't matter which games the closer which pitches well enough to blow the fewest saves is the best period.

Yeah, but Koch has a much better makeup than Foulke. He wouldn't have blown those games Foulke did last year. He's real closer. Just look at how he did in the clutch in the playoffs last year.

Oops.

B. Diddy
07-05-2003, 03:37 PM
Foulke gets hitters out by changing speeds. Koch used to just blow hitters away by throwing 95-100 mph, not unlike Bobby Howry. Now he can't throw a mid-90's fastball. Something tells me that Kenny Williams didn't notice that he threw 90+ innings last year, because I sure as hell would be hesitant to trade a guy like Foulke for a guy whose arm is about to fall off. Or maybe JM and KW soured relations with Foulke so badly that a trade was the only option.

Whatever the reason, KW screwed up big time here.

Foulke has had more than his share of bad outings on the South Side, but he did it in bunches. He could be counted on as lights out for months at a time. Koch has more or less sucked this whole season.

Again, KW screwed up big time here.

MarkV
07-05-2003, 04:46 PM
Trading Keith Foulke was one of the worst moves in Sox history. Foulke has never had an ERA worse than 2.93 since he became a reliever. The only reason he was bad early was because they never got him in games-we were either winning by a lot or losing by a lot. He got rusty, and, thus, struggled. The last four months of the season, he was unhittable with an ERA under 1.20. But they never gave him his job back. Yet Koch has sucked since the end of Spring Training, and he hasn't lost his job yet. You don't need overpowering stuff to be a good closer if you've got good breaking stuff, good movement on your pitches, and you don't walk guys. Besides, Keith Foulke's fastball reaches 94 mph routinely-he just uses his changeup to get guys out because it's his best pitch. Koch has never had movement on his fastball. The only reason he ever had success was because he could get the ball up to 100 mph at times. He hasn't reached 96 mph yet this year and he can't find the strike zone very often either. The only reason we traded Foulke was cause Kenny didn't like him. Anybody Kenny dislikes gets traded. When it's all said and done, Foulke will be celebrating a World Series Championship while we'll be cursing Koch for blowing it for us in the playoffs. :angry:

ilsox7
07-05-2003, 04:49 PM
This is directed at no one in particular, but I am just sick of reading about Keith Foulke. The trade was made. Koch hasn't worked out thus far. I don't think you'll find anyone who would take Koch over Foulke as we use our 20/20 hindsight. Let's deal with who is on this team, not who isn't.

VeeckAsInWreck
07-05-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I hate it when people say stuff like that. How the $%#$#%$ do you know how sensitive one ballplayer or another is unless you happen to be very close to both of them? Nonetheless if I have to chose between one guy who is good at getting batters out and another guy who isn't good at getting batters out but is emotionally tough I'm picking the guy who is good at getting batters out.

OK so Foulke and I didn't hang out very often, but as soon as he had a bad outing, it carried over for the next week and a half. When Koch has a bad outing he usually rebounds and has a good one the next time up.

Unless you have a time machine, there is nothing you can do to change the trade that was made. Let It Be!

gosox41
07-05-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by B. Diddy
Foulke gets hitters out by changing speeds. Koch used to just blow hitters away by throwing 95-100 mph, not unlike Bobby Howry. Now he can't throw a mid-90's fastball. Something tells me that Kenny Williams didn't notice that he threw 90+ innings last year, because I sure as hell would be hesitant to trade a guy like Foulke for a guy whose arm is about to fall off. Or maybe JM and KW soured relations with Foulke so badly that a trade was the only option.

Whatever the reason, KW screwed up big time here.

Foulke has had more than his share of bad outings on the South Side, but he did it in bunches. He could be counted on as lights out for months at a time. Koch has more or less sucked this whole season.

Again, KW screwed up big time here.

I could have lived with trading Foulke if the Sox didn't get a worese pitcher for more money. This offseason the team new it had holes in CF, C, and possibly 2B as well as starting pitching. Why not trade Foulke for that.

It's that much easier to critique the Koch/Foulke trade because the Sox traded a closer for a closer.

Bob

gosox41
07-05-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
This is directed at no one in particular, but I am just sick of reading about Keith Foulke. The trade was made. Koch hasn't worked out thus far. I don't think you'll find anyone who would take Koch over Foulke as we use our 20/20 hindsight. Let's deal with who is on this team, not who isn't.

For the record, I was against this trade the day it happened. Go back and read the posts. No hindsight was needed to see it was a crappy trade just like no hindsight is need to see that extending Konerko's contract for $24 mill. over 3 years was a huge mistake...even if he had the exact same numbers in 2002 and 2003.

I've been saying that since the day these moves happened. And I will continue to bring up how bad the Foulke trade was as long as Foulke succeeds and Koch continues to blow. Why?? Because I was right then when it was clearly obivous to a few people here including me that it was a dumb trade. Just like it's obivous that KW is not the long term answer to be GM of this team.

I keep bringing it up because I do not want to be accused of saying things in hindsight. I hate that. Also because if Sox fans keep beating down the many stupid deals of KW maybe he'll get canned and a more competent GM will run this team. It's all I can do since I unfortunately don't have the power to fire him nor the money to buy the team.

Bob

B. Diddy
07-06-2003, 10:31 AM
Besides, Keith Foulke's fastball reaches 94 mph routinely-he just uses his changeup to get guys out because it's his best pitch.

Unless he's been taking steroids recently, Keith's fastball was never 94 "routinely." It was more like 91-92. His changeup probably makes it look like 97, though.

Koch has never had movement on his fastball. The only reason he ever had success was because he could get the ball up to 100 mph at times. He hasn't reached 96 mph yet this year and he can't find the strike zone very often either.

Not to mention the fact that he has no curve, slider, etc. He is definitely a one-trick pony.

The only reason we traded Foulke was cause Kenny didn't like him. Anybody Kenny dislikes gets traded.

I agree that was a big part of it. Foulke was on bad terms with JM last year.

When it's all said and done, Foulke will be celebrating a World Series Championship while we'll be cursing Koch for blowing it for us in the playoffs.

[In Jim Mora's voice:] PLAYOFFS?!? PLAYOFFS?!?

If we keep losing to the Devil Rays, we're not going to even make the playoffs.