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voodoochile
07-02-2003, 02:43 PM
Remember after the Sox won the division in 2000 Reinsdorf said something praising the WFT?

Well, here it comes back at you, Reinsy...

I hope JR now realizes what a complete and total failure the WFT was and that the way to build a successful team and attract fans and positive media attention is to add big time players when the moment comes upon you. Anyone who thinks this team can't catch Minnesota and KC is crazy...

Paulwny
07-02-2003, 02:50 PM
I guess this is how yankmee fans feel knowing "King George" will get players to fill holes.

white sox bill
07-02-2003, 03:19 PM
IIRC didn't JR say something along the lines of

"A lot of people were skeptical of the WFT, but this (clinching the division) proves that the plan worked blah blah"

Am I right?

1951Campbell
07-02-2003, 04:11 PM
:reinsy

"Just remember...now that we acquired these two guys, we had better avearge 44,000 people a game, otherwise I'lll just think you're all a bunch of ingrates..."

daveb816
07-02-2003, 04:30 PM
I'm excited about the moves yesterday, but the WFT turned out well. They wouldn't have signed Roberto or Wilson and got a great reliever (Foulke) and a pretty good one (Howry). That team in late July was a mediocre mess and wouldn't have stayed with the Tribe, no matter what the margin happened to be on 7/31.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by daveb816
I'm excited about the moves yesterday, but the WFT turned out well. They wouldn't have signed Roberto or Wilson and got a great reliever (Foulke) and a pretty good one (Howry). That team in late July was a mediocre mess and wouldn't have stayed with the Tribe, no matter what the margin happened to be on 7/31.

Reinsy is that you?

Nice to see you are buying the company line... If the team can't compete with the top team in the division and you are only 3.5 out, you have TWO choices...

1)Trade away the FA's to be and give up.

2)Acquire more players who can give you a chance at the title.

You like 1. I like 2.

Remind me again, how many titles did the WFT bring to the southside? Oh that's right... zero. Could the 2000 team have won the division with some scrapheap closer instead of Foulke? Probably. Now I see your logic...

Tragg
07-02-2003, 06:46 PM
The thing is, none of this is costing JR a nickle; and he will reap the benefits of enhanced attendance.
What it is costing him is prospects - but that's not money out of his pocket.
As a fan, I just as soon keep players and let JR pay salary; but, it doesn't work that way.
Point is that JR really isn't risking squat by letting KW go out and get players because, at least so far, the original club pays the salaries.

MarqSox
07-02-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
The thing is, none of this is costing JR a nickle; and he will reap the benefits of enhanced attendance.
What it is costing him is prospects - but that's not money out of his pocket.
As a fan, I just as soon keep players and let JR pay salary; but, it doesn't work that way.
Point is that JR really isn't risking squat by letting KW go out and get players because, at least so far, the original club pays the salaries.

In fact, at $150,000, I bet Robbie paid for himself today in walkup sales.

chisoxt
07-02-2003, 07:12 PM
I hope JR now realizes what a complete and total failure the WFT was and that the way to build a successful team and attract fans and positive media attention is to add big time players when the moment comes upon you. Anyone who thinks this team can't catch Minnesota and KC is crazy.

On paper the trades that KW made look OK, but this could still turn out to be a collossal failure in the end...I think over time and the history of similiare trades, the advantage always seems to go with the team that gets the younger players, and not the one that gets the veterans to help spur a pennant drive.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt
On paper the trades that KW made look OK, but this could still turn out to be a collossal failure in the end...I think over time and the history of similiare trades, the advantage always seems to go with the team that gets the younger players, and not the one that gets the veterans to help spur a pennant drive.

Yep, the Sox might not mtake advantage of the better players they acquired, but that still is no excuse for not trying. This is a good move, period. Even if the guys we end up giving away turn into solid major leaguers, this is still a good move.

MarqSox
07-02-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt
On paper the trades that KW made look OK, but this could still turn out to be a collossal failure in the end...I think over time and the history of similiare trades, the advantage always seems to go with the team that gets the younger players, and not the one that gets the veterans to help spur a pennant drive.
That's true, but we've always been that other team, and look how that's turned out ....

chisoxt
07-02-2003, 07:24 PM
This is a good move, period. Even if the guys we end up giving away turn into solid major leaguers, this is still a good move

I dunno.... it's all relative to what other teams may have given up in return. It just always seems that Kenny can never get the upper hand in any trade. Compare the Alomar trade with the Durham trade last year......both were for star second basemen going to teams to help them in a pennant drive.....Oakland gave up NOTHING to get Durham...the Sox even paid his salary......But, we gave up one of our top minor league pitchers to get a washed up head case.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt
I dunno.... it's all relative to what other teams may have given up in return. It just always seems that Kenny can never get the upper hand in any trade. Compare the Alomar trade with the Durham trade last year......both were for star second basemen going to teams to help them in a pennant drive.....Oakland gave up NOTHING to get Durham...the Sox even paid his salary......But, we gave up one of our top minor league pitchers to get a washed up head case.

Ring's a reliever - in the minors. I'm sorry, it was a crappy pick at the time and as good as he is, he ain't all that.

chisoxt
07-02-2003, 07:28 PM
Ring's a reliever - in the minors. I'm sorry, it was a crappy pick at the time and as good as he is, he ain't all that .

Time will tell......Go Sox!

Daver
07-02-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Ring's a reliever - in the minors. I'm sorry, it was a crappy pick at the time and as good as he is, he ain't all that.

How good do you have to be to be a set up man/lefty specialist,because as of Monday that was all I would have projected him to be.

Almonte and Salvo will probably never make the Majors.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by daver
How good do you have to be to be a set up man/lefty specialist,because as of Monday that was all I would have projected him to be.

Almonte and Salvo will probably never make the Majors.

Even if he ends up being a closer, it isn't that big of an issue. Guys who project as relievers in the minors (even closers) just aren't that valuable.

Biddle never was a reliever in the minors and he is tearing it up as a closer. Same with Foulke. In fact most good major league relievers were starters in the minors.

Lip Man 1
07-02-2003, 08:02 PM
Remind me again, how many titles did the WFT bring to the southside? Oh that's right... zero. Could the 2000 team have won the division with some scrapheap closer instead of Foulke? Probably. Now I see your logic...

PLUS the resulting local and national publicity made the Sox a laughingstock and crippled this franchise. Remember the anger in Joe Morgan's voice when on Baseball Tonight he talked about feeling sorry for season ticket holders and Sox fans? Or how about the main story in Sports Illustrated?

That move was an unmitigated disaster!

PLUS it's six years later and we don't have ONE player still with the Sox AND only 4 of the 6 EVER spent a day in the big leagues.

"Great future" in a pig's rear end!

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
07-02-2003, 09:31 PM
I've repeated the quote from Reinsdorf innumerable times. It was on TV and reported widely. On the day the Sox clinched the 2000 division championship, Reinsdorf was inside the clubhouse celebrating with the team. Obviously it was loud party atmosphere. Everybody is happy, so what does Reinsdorf say.

:reinsy
"I'm sure Sox Fans are glad to have been wrong [sic] about the White Flag trade."

HUH???

We've covered this topic a million times around here. There seems to be no consensus on whether the team was truly brought back to a competitive level quicker for dumping players and salary. We sacrificed several first round sandwich picks by not "going crazy" and trying to catch Cleveland. The ballplayers we traded for won exactly ZERO playoff games for us. Thus the on-field performance was basically a push.

In stark contrast, what everybody seems to agree on is how devastating the fallout from the WFT has been to the credibility of the Sox with their fan base. Coming on the heels of Reinsdorf's role in the '94 strike, the team's attendance has fallen by nearly one-third. It sure rings hollow whenever the Sox start whining about low attendance and being cash-strapped to sign top ballplayers. Who is to blame for breaking the string of record-breaking attendance seasons? The fans were showing up in record numbers for games--until they stopped playing them.

Who was wrong about the WFT, Mr. Reinsdorf? The answer is obvious.

The WFT violated the trust between fans and ownership. How anybody can claim this was anything but a disaster for the franchise is beyond me.

StillMissOzzie
07-02-2003, 10:30 PM
About the dough the Sox are paying Roberto Alomar and Carl Everett - I think that it's part of the colective bargaining agreement and paying the minimum MLB salary.

The Sox are paying $150,000 which is the pro-rata share (that is, about HALF) of the $300,000 MLB minimum, and the Mets are picking up the rest. I understand that it's essentially the same deal with Everett.

The $150,000 is chicken feed compared to the $3 million or $4 million covered by the Mets & Rangers, but the Sox are obligated to pay that much.

:gulp:

TRL
07-02-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
The thing is, none of this is costing JR a nickle; and he will reap the benefits of enhanced attendance.
What it is costing him is prospects - but that's not money out of his pocket.
As a fan, I just as soon keep players and let JR pay salary; but, it doesn't work that way.
Point is that JR really isn't risking squat by letting KW go out and get players because, at least so far, the original club pays the salaries.

You make this sound like a bad thing. Do you think that we would have traded for these guys if we had to pay them $8M? So what if Reiny makes some money. It's better than giving him an excuse to complain about low attendance to pay for his payroll. We got two players that we are paying peanuts. It is economical and is an improvement over Rios and Jiminez. What more do you want.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by TRL
You make this sound like a bad thing. Do you think that we would have traded for these guys if we had to pay them $8M? So what if Reiny makes some money. It's better than giving him an excuse to complain about low attendance to pay for his payroll. We got two players that we are paying peanuts. It is economical and is an improvement over Rios and Jiminez. What more do you want.

Exactly. In fact, I'll go on record as saying I hope JR and his partners make millions and millions of dollars. Because, the only way they are going to do that is to bring fans to the park and they only way they are going to make that happen is to consistently field winners...