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JasonC23
07-02-2003, 11:53 AM
I was pretty vocal yesterday in my dislike of the Alomar trade. Now that the Everett trade has gone through, as well, I've decided that these trades make me sad, scared, and (yes) even happy. My thoughts (if anyone cares)...

Happy!
1. The Sox are actually trading FOR players, not trading AWAY players. I'd forgotten what that was like. :smile:

2. If Willie Harris and Aaron Rowand are your starting 2B and CF, getting 2 more productive players at those positions is actually intelligent. :smile: But more on this in a second...

Sad
1. D'Angelo Jimenez got a raw deal from Sox management and fans. If he's your starting 2B, you don't need Alomar, as Jimenez has been more productive the past 2 years at the plate. Yes, he makes dumb baserunning mistakes and his defense isn't the best, but A) Alomar's defense isn't what it used to be, B) no matter how many dumb mistakes he made, he should never have been benched for Willie Harris, and C) it seems like he became the convenient whipping boy for the team's failures, like Keith Foulke last year (and we all know how that trade worked out).

Scared
1. Kenny Williams correctly identifies CF as a Sox weakness. He trades for a great OF bat in Everett...but Everett shouldn't be playing CF. If the Sox play Lee in LF, Everett in CF, and Ordonez in RF, their OF defense is going to be atrocious. Honestly, I'm excited about his bat and think it will more than make up for his lack of fielding, but I just wanted to point this out before people get sick of all of the doubles and triples landing in the gap. :cool:

2. This is the perfect opportunity for Jerry Manuel to use a more flexible lineup to the best of its abilities. As others on here have postulated, he could use Everett as a CF, LF, or DH; Frank as 1B or DH; Daubach as 1B, LF, or DH; Harris and Rowand as matchup subs or defensive subs; etc. But what, really, are the chances that he makes the correct moves and lets the lineup work to its fullest potential? :(:

So, to sum up...I'm glad the Sox made moves and I hope they're the right moves, but there are enough red flags here to make me fear that they may just blow up in their face. Of course, if they do, maybe Jerry and Kenny will be fired and everyone will be happy... :cool: but I rather it not come to that.

For now, I'll try and remain cautiously optimistic, but reserve the right to say "I told you so" if the moves don't work. You all, of course, have the right to mock me utterly and completely if they work so well the Sox win it all. :smile:

Go Sox!

Randar68
07-02-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by JasonC23
Kenny Williams correctly identifies CF as a Sox weakness. He trades for a great OF bat in Everett...but Everett shouldn't be playing CF. If the Sox play Lee in LF, Everett in CF, and Ordonez in RF, their OF defense is going to be atrocious. Honestly, I'm excited about his bat and think it will more than make up for his lack of fielding, but I just wanted to point this out before people get sick of all of the doubles and triples landing in the gap.


And that is different from when Rowand plays there how?

JRIG
07-02-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23


Sad
1. D'Angelo Jimenez got a raw deal from Sox management and fans. If he's your starting 2B, you don't need Alomar, as Jimenez has been more productive the past 2 years at the plate. Yes, he makes dumb baserunning mistakes and his defense isn't the best, but A) Alomar's defense isn't what it used to be, B) no matter how many dumb mistakes he made, he should never have been benched for Willie Harris, and C) it seems like he became the convenient whipping boy for the team's failures, like Keith Foulke last year (and we all know how that trade worked out).


Amen. The fact that it looks like we're going to let him become a free agent sickens me. I don't think he'll accept the assignment, so he's as good as gone. Jimenez would be much more valuable on the bench than Willie Harris.

Much like Keith Foulke didn't throw 100mph or have facial hair, Jimenez does make mistakes in the field on on the basepaths. It's easy to criticize. But guys with around a .350 OBP just don't fall out of trees. It's foolish to throw him away, especially since Alomar probably won't be here next year.

delben91
07-02-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And that is different from when Rowand plays there how?

Ummm....Everett knows enough to not run into the outfield fence at full speed?? :?:

JasonC23
07-02-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And that is different from when Rowand plays there how?

Hmmm...good point. :smile: But I think Rowand is better than Everett, which should scare you. :cool:

Shoeless Joe
07-02-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23

D'Angelo Jimenez got a raw deal from Sox management and fans

I believe that's guaranteed in every Sox's players contract...

xil357
07-02-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe
I believe that's guaranteed in every Sox's players contract...

That is particularly creepy coming from someone whose user name is "Shoeless Joe."

hold2dibber
07-02-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
I was pretty vocal yesterday in my dislike of the Alomar trade. Now that the Everett trade has gone through, as well, I've decided that these trades make me sad, scared, and (yes) even happy. My thoughts (if anyone cares)...

Happy!
1. The Sox are actually trading FOR players, not trading AWAY players. I'd forgotten what that was like. :smile:

2. If Willie Harris and Aaron Rowand are your starting 2B and CF, getting 2 more productive players at those positions is actually intelligent. :smile: But more on this in a second...

Sad
1. D'Angelo Jimenez got a raw deal from Sox management and fans. If he's your starting 2B, you don't need Alomar, as Jimenez has been more productive the past 2 years at the plate. Yes, he makes dumb baserunning mistakes and his defense isn't the best, but A) Alomar's defense isn't what it used to be, B) no matter how many dumb mistakes he made, he should never have been benched for Willie Harris, and C) it seems like he became the convenient whipping boy for the team's failures, like Keith Foulke last year (and we all know how that trade worked out).

Scared
1. Kenny Williams correctly identifies CF as a Sox weakness. He trades for a great OF bat in Everett...but Everett shouldn't be playing CF. If the Sox play Lee in LF, Everett in CF, and Ordonez in RF, their OF defense is going to be atrocious. Honestly, I'm excited about his bat and think it will more than make up for his lack of fielding, but I just wanted to point this out before people get sick of all of the doubles and triples landing in the gap. :cool:

2. This is the perfect opportunity for Jerry Manuel to use a more flexible lineup to the best of its abilities. As others on here have postulated, he could use Everett as a CF, LF, or DH; Frank as 1B or DH; Daubach as 1B, LF, or DH; Harris and Rowand as matchup subs or defensive subs; etc. But what, really, are the chances that he makes the correct moves and lets the lineup work to its fullest potential? :(:

So, to sum up...I'm glad the Sox made moves and I hope they're the right moves, but there are enough red flags here to make me fear that they may just blow up in their face. Of course, if they do, maybe Jerry and Kenny will be fired and everyone will be happy... :cool: but I rather it not come to that.

For now, I'll try and remain cautiously optimistic, but reserve the right to say "I told you so" if the moves don't work. You all, of course, have the right to mock me utterly and completely if they work so well the Sox win it all. :smile:

Go Sox!

I pretty much agree with everything you said, but have a couple of observations:

(1) Everett, IMHO, is no worse than Rowand in CF. And I would guess that Rowand will start in CF against lefties anyway, with Everett DH'ing and Daubach on the bench. And Everett is clearly a big offensive upgrade.

(2) I think and hope that Alomar will improve his offense back in the comfort of the AL Central, playing with his brother and will produce at least as well as Jimenez would have. But even if he doesn't, his ability to steal bases, play defense, bunt and play smart baseball would at the very least make him as valuable as Jimenez, even if his stick doesn't come back around.

(3) Overall, I just don't see any significant risk to these trades. There is some risk that, down the road, Royce Ring will become a good closer and that the Sox will miss Jimenez next year, but for this year, these trades make the team better. And I can't, as a fan who has bitched and moaned about the organization's refusal to take winning seriously, can't complain about that.

A.T. Money
07-02-2003, 01:09 PM
Jimenez sucks.....period!

If we want to win, then we need to part ways with the mental blunders, and he's in most of them.

I can live with the physical errors at times. Human Beings make mistakes. If Jose makes a bad throw to first, or someone strikes out, then fine. But constant mistakes because your head isn't in the game...unacceptable.

I'm not upset we gave up minor leaguers. The time is now. Win THIS year. There are no guarentees in this game. We'll never know what will become of the minor leaguers. We're in it to win now! I'm sick of preparing for the future. Most of the time, it never pans out.

Not one person will bitch if we get to the playoffs. Not one.

seventytwo
07-02-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by SoxDemon
Jimenez sucks.....period!

If we want to win, then we need to part ways with the mental blunders, and he's in most of them.

I can live with the physical errors at times. Human Beings make mistakes. If Jose makes a bad throw to first, or someone strikes out, then fine. But constant mistakes because your head isn't in the game...unacceptable.

I'm not upset we gave up minor leaguers. The time is now. Win THIS year. There are no guarentees in this game. We'll never know what will become of the minor leaguers. We're in it to win now! I'm sick of preparing for the future. Most of the time, it never pans out.

Not one person will bitch if we get to the playoffs. Not one.

kevingrt
07-02-2003, 01:37 PM
Yeah listening to a Rangers beat write this morning he sounded all happy about Everett and his production except that he has a tough time in CF. Hopefully he can just stand in CF and not make any stupid plays or errors, and we just lose a little range with him. If not we could always move Maggs out there but he is very iffy in CF too

jeremyb1
07-02-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
(3) Overall, I just don't see any significant risk to these trades. There is some risk that, down the road, Royce Ring will become a good closer and that the Sox will miss Jimenez next year, but for this year, these trades make the team better. And I can't, as a fan who has bitched and moaned about the organization's refusal to take winning seriously, can't complain about that.

the problem is that the move to let jimenez go was largely independent of the trades. the deals necessitated clearing some room on the roster for alomar and everett but it in no way required us to cut jimenez instead of simply sending harris down (i believe he has options left). the notion that our organization values having harris as a reserve over jimenez this season so much that they'd cut jimenez, an average to above average hitter this season, leaving harris the man with a .200 on base percentage as our incumbent second basemen next season makes me ill.

JRIG
07-02-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1

The notion that our organization values having harris as a reserve over jimenez this season so much that they'd cut jimenez, an average to above average hitter this season, leaving harris the man with a .200 on base percentage as our incumbent second basemen next season makes me ill.

But Harris has speed!....And he has good fundamentals!....And he "plays the game the way it's supposed to be played!"

Who cares about a .350 OBP when you have a player like that?

Foulke You
07-02-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23

1. A) Alomar's defense isn't what it used to be


The difference between Robbie Alomar's defense and D'angelo's defense is that Robbie HAS many gold gloves and D'angelo has once HEARD about gold gloves.

Roberto Alomar on his WORST day is still better and smarter defensively than Jimenez. Naysayers are going to marvel at the plays Roberto makes in the hole and up the middle. The guy is amazing to watch out there. C'mon guys don't you remember Roberto breaking our hearts when he was in Cleveland and Toronto with acrobatic plays? You can doubt whether he finds his offensive stroke but never doubt his defense.

hold2dibber
07-02-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the problem is that the move to let jimenez go was largely independent of the trades. the deals necessitated clearing some room on the roster for alomar and everett but it in no way required us to cut jimenez instead of simply sending harris down (i believe he has options left). the notion that our organization values having harris as a reserve over jimenez this season so much that they'd cut jimenez, an average to above average hitter this season, leaving harris the man with a .200 on base percentage as our incumbent second basemen next season makes me ill.

I agree 100%. And Harris does have options left, I'm pretty sure.

Fridaythe13thJason
07-02-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the problem is that the move to let jimenez go was largely independent of the trades. the deals necessitated clearing some room on the roster for alomar and everett but it in no way required us to cut jimenez instead of simply sending harris down (i believe he has options left). the notion that our organization values having harris as a reserve over jimenez this season so much that they'd cut jimenez, an average to above average hitter this season, leaving harris the man with a .200 on base percentage as our incumbent second basemen next season makes me ill.

Again, people are not looking at the position that this bencher is about to play. Willie or D'Angelo would be a backup player. In terms of that, there are a few categories...

A) Pinch Hitter - D'Angelo is better
B) Pinch Runner - Willie is better
C) Defense - Willie is better, and plays multiple positions

Right now, I care nothing about next year. I only care about now. I know that's shallow, but we have a chance to do damage with that pitching this year. You keep Willie Harris. We will not have too many pinch hitting opps with this offense and Int. Play over with. Also, the intangibles go to Willie because of hustle, mental preparedness, and attitude.