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View Full Version : I like the trades, but 3/8 PTBNL ?


JUGGERNAUT
07-02-2003, 08:25 AM
Scares the **** out of me!
ESPN is reporting TEXAS gets to pick 3 ml out of a pool of 8 players.

Does KW think ml players are nothing more than chips at a casino?

harwar
07-02-2003, 08:38 AM
I like what KW is doing.He has more guts than most GM's.He is doing what most fans scream for every year..he is going for it all..right now.Reinsdorf has said very recently than there are more trades to come,but that will mean that major leaguers will go this time as i believe they are through with trading from the farm.KW has been ripped every way you can but i feel now is the time for all White Sox fans to forgive and forget and jump on the band wagon and get their buts out to the park and support this team on their drive to the playoffs.If we fill the park every night,they would then have the money to buy a player or two,if not then someone on the roster might have to go.What a difference a few weeks has made.GO WHITE SOX!!!

WhiteSoxWinner
07-02-2003, 08:52 AM
The other key to these deals is that the former teams are picking up the costs. JR, always payroll conscious, would not sign off on deals that would would inflate payroll. Good moves.

chosk8
07-02-2003, 08:56 AM
Although they were not involved in the trade, I think you have to consider that we also gave up 2 others in Jimenez and Rios. As far as Rios goes, good riddance. I may be in the minority about Jimenez, but I like the guy. I hate to see a good switch hitter just let go basically. Yes, he had many brain cramps at times, but I think this is correctable. So basically we gave up 8 guys for these 2. I hope it works out, but I have my doubts. I am dreading to here the names of the players in the Everett deal.

hold2dibber
07-02-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by chosk8
Although they were not involved in the trade, I think you have to consider that we also gave up 2 others in Jimenez and Rios. As far as Rios goes, good riddance. I may be in the minority about Jimenez, but I like the guy. I hate to see a good switch hitter just let go basically. Yes, he had many brain cramps at times, but I think this is correctable. So basically we gave up 8 guys for these 2. I hope it works out, but I have my doubts. I am dreading to here the names of the players in the Everett deal.

I'm excited about the moves, but I'm withholding final judgment until I find out who the Sox are sending to the Rangers. The Expos had a deal worked out to get Juan Gonzalez from the Rangers for 2 "b" type prospects; I certainly hope that the Sox don't end up paying more than that for Everett.

I also agree with your reaction to the release of Jimenez. I don't get it. The guy has talent - he's lackidaisical (sp?) and not nearly fiery enough, but you can (theoretically, at least) work on those things, whereas talent can't be taught. I would have sent down Harris and kept Jimenez around, or at least tried to have traded him (which I know is still a possibility) for a prospect.

lowesox
07-02-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I would have sent down Harris and kept Jimenez around, or at least tried to have traded him (which I know is still a possibility) for a prospect.

These trades are going to mean less playing time for whichever of these two players that stays. From a talent perspective Harris makes sense to keep because the team will need a late inning pinch-runner. He fits that bill since he's fastest. He's also younger.

I think Jimenez will get traded, but probably not for much in return. KW better make sure it's to an NL team because Jimenez can be deadly when he focuses (as we saw earlier this year) and he'll probably want to burn the sox after all of this.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-02-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
Does KW think ml (minor league) players are nothing more than chips at a casino?

I'm not sure you intended this, but you may have hit it right on the head.

Nobody goes to the casino for the sake of collecting chips. You go to the casino to WIN. Chips are worth exactly nothing until you cash out. The Sox haven't cashed out in 85+ years.

The division is ripe for the taking. As lousy as the team has played the first three months, we've got an excellent shot at winning this--and a chance at a whole lot more.

This is the time to make moves. Start "spending" some chips.

NC_sox_fan
07-02-2003, 09:49 AM
If you guys think the Sox are getting out cheaply, don't forget the signing bonuses they've given guys like Ring. I believe it was fairly heftly.

The overall cost will come down the road, when the farm system is depleted even more than it is now. With no prospects left in the farm system, all of you guys in Chicago will be whining about why Kenny traded them all away. Especially if Alomar and Everett are only here for this year and we don't win.

I understand Kenny's thinking (SCARY!), but I don't know if his gamble will be worth it. I SURE HOPE SO.

Tragg
07-02-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm not sure you intended this, but you may have hit it right on the head.

Nobody goes to the casino for the sake of collecting chips. You go to the casino to WIN. Chips are worth exactly nothing until you cash out. The Sox haven't cashed out in 85+ years.

The division is ripe for the taking. As lousy as the team has played the first three months, we've got an excellent shot at winning this--and a chance at a whole lot more.

This is the time to make moves. Start "spending" some chips.

Indeed. Johnny Ruffin never won any rings.
But it's still rational to hope that we got the best deal for our chips or use as few chips as possible. The proposed deal for Gonzales is a good comparison to decide whether kenny struck a good bargain.

valposoxfan
07-02-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by NC_sox_fan
If you guys think the Sox are getting out cheaply, don't forget the signing bonuses they've given guys like Ring. I believe it was fairly heftly.

The overall cost will come down the road, when the farm system is depleted even more than it is now. With no prospects left in the farm system, all of you guys in Chicago will be whining about why Kenny traded them all away. Especially if Alomar and Everett are only here for this year and we don't win.

I understand Kenny's thinking (SCARY!), but I don't know if his gamble will be worth it. I SURE HOPE SO.

That's why it's called a "gamble", folks. You don't really know what is going to happen with these deals but these are players that the White Sox needed THIS YEAR. If they don't work, that sucks, but the effort was there to beat this team over the top. It will be interesting to see what happens, and I am worried about the farm system now, trust me. But these needed to happen for ths year to make a run, a worthwhile run, and I hope the next deals are even more interesting. Right now I'm thinking positive about these deals.

moochpuppy
07-02-2003, 10:04 AM
What prospects has KW traded away that has amounted to anything yet? Would you rather have him out trading for guys like Jose Hernandez?!? Sometimes people complain just for the sake of complaining. If KW just went out and dumped Colon and Loaiza for a bunch of prospects this board would be filled with quotes like, "The Sox have been playing well, we are only 3 games out, it's another White Flag trade, why don't they try and win now"

I like both moves and I've never been one to pin too many hopes on unproven minor league players. As for most teams, it doesn't work out. There is no time like the present.

With that being said, let's send Konehead over to the scrubs for Farnsworth.

chosk8
07-02-2003, 10:10 AM
If we win it all this year, I could care less if we become the Detroit Tigers next year. The thing that scares me is if we don't win. I understand it's a gamble, but I think we have a habit of giving up too much in trades. 3 prospects here, another 3 prospects there and throw in Rios and Jimenez who are gone also, I'm not sure we got enough in return. And to top it off, the year we decide not to make pitching a priority in the draft, we are about to lose quite a bit of it in these 2 trades. I can't say this enough, but I dread hearing the names of the players we give up in the Everett deal.

dougs78
07-02-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by chosk8
I can't say this enough, but I dread hearing the names of the players we give up in the Everett deal.

I am anxious to hear also, but I really don't think you are going to be dreading it once you hear it. I can't imagine the demand for Carl was huge around the league. I think we'll all be quite happy when we hear we didn't give up too much.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-02-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by NC_sox_fan
If you guys think the Sox are getting out cheaply, don't forget the signing bonuses they've given guys like Ring. I believe it was fairly heftly.

The overall cost will come down the road, when the farm system is depleted even more than it is now. With no prospects left in the farm system, all of you guys in Chicago will be whining about why Kenny traded them all away. Especially if Alomar and Everett are only here for this year and we don't win.

I understand Kenny's thinking (SCARY!), but I don't know if his gamble will be worth it. I SURE HOPE SO.

Minor league ballplayers are like crops. They are only there to be harvested. The crops themselves are worthless unless they bring you something of value.

Some minor leaguers rise up to the parent club and become regular ballplayers, maybe even stars. That's valuable to the parent club. Others get traded while still in the minors for ballplayers that fill immediate needs for the parent club, like when the season is half over and a spot in the October playoffs is there for the grabbing. That's valuable, too.

Finally, just like crops, a fresh batch of new minor leaguers is ready to be raised. The high schools and colleges keep cranking them out. Not one of them is worth a damned thing until you get something of value back from them--either at 35th & Shields, or from another ballclub willing to give you something of value in trade.

Make moves now, because the time is definitely right.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by JUGGERNAUT
Scares the **** out of me!
ESPN is reporting TEXAS gets to pick 3 ml out of a pool of 8 players.

Does KW think ml players are nothing more than chips at a casino?

Yep and it sounds like the right way to treat them.

Go Kenny! Go Kenny! Go Kenny!

:bandance:

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by NC_sox_fan
If you guys think the Sox are getting out cheaply, don't forget the signing bonuses they've given guys like Ring. I believe it was fairly heftly.

The overall cost will come down the road, when the farm system is depleted even more than it is now. With no prospects left in the farm system, all of you guys in Chicago will be whining about why Kenny traded them all away. Especially if Alomar and Everett are only here for this year and we don't win.

I understand Kenny's thinking (SCARY!), but I don't know if his gamble will be worth it. I SURE HOPE SO.

I promise to never complain about these trades, no matter how bad the minor league system is 3 years from now... Honestly... I promise...

:bandance:

chosk8
07-02-2003, 10:44 AM
I am anxious to hear also, but I really don't think you are going to be dreading it once you hear it. I can't imagine the demand for Carl was huge around the league. I think we'll all be quite happy when we hear we didn't give up too much.

I hope you are right. I just don't want to see Rauch, Honel and Cotts or even 2 of those names and another lower prospect. I can deal with one, preferrably Rauch, and 2 other lower prospects.

Chisoxfn
07-02-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by NC_sox_fan
If you guys think the Sox are getting out cheaply, don't forget the signing bonuses they've given guys like Ring. I believe it was fairly heftly.

The overall cost will come down the road, when the farm system is depleted even more than it is now. With no prospects left in the farm system, all of you guys in Chicago will be whining about why Kenny traded them all away. Especially if Alomar and Everett are only here for this year and we don't win.

I understand Kenny's thinking (SCARY!), but I don't know if his gamble will be worth it. I SURE HOPE SO.

Think of it this way...Sox make the playoffs or they keep these guys and fall short.

In the offseason they say, they aren't going to sign them.

Heres what happens
-Two First Rounders for Alomar as compensation for him leaving
-At least one for Everett and I'd guess it would be two
-You'd get a compensation for Jose (Not sure when)
-You'd get 2 1st rounders for Colon

Now lets look at what we gave up in the Alomar deal. One damn good reliever, a fringe guy, and a nobody. In return, we get Aloamr for free for a year and then can let him walk for two first round picks, if done right, would amount to a whole lot more then Ring.

With Everett is it a lot harder to read since we don't know who they gave up, but I can't believe we give up any of our Top Prospects. The best guy that could go is someone like Munoz (Don't see him going since we just dealt Ring) or Diaz or Ginter or someone like Hummel, guys like Ryan Meaux. I really can't see Honel, Wing, Cotts involved (Scares me if they are) as they are better guys then Ring, imo.

If its the case we give up a few guys, none of which are our best, then we get some good picks in return as well, definately recouping what we gave up.

Heck, thinking about things, we could win the series, JR could decide not to spend a fortune and take a ton of picks. We could make the playoffs, JR could pick up a ton of picks letting a few guy, while replacing other guys spending some money (I know, not very JR like).

We'll all have to wait and see, but these moves could pay off and if they don't, we hold onto them and get tons of draft picks.

mack10zie
07-02-2003, 10:48 AM
On baseball tonight I think Harold Reynolds said something to the effect of: "Out of the pool of eight, the Rangers will get to pick three players, but this pool does not include the three players that the Sox feel are untouchable." I'm thinking Borchard, Rauch, and Honel may be those guys, but I really don't know. Rauch actually might not be one, maybe Cotts instead, but at least we know that Texas won't be getting any of our 'top 3' prospects, at least how our organization ranks them.

Chisoxfn
07-02-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by mack10zie
On baseball tonight I think Harold Reynolds said something to the effect of: "Out of the pool of eight, the Rangers will get to pick three players, but this pool does not include the three players that the Sox feel are untouchable." I'm thinking Borchard, Rauch, and Honel may be those guys, but I really don't know. Rauch actually might not be one, maybe Cotts instead, but at least we know that Texas won't be getting any of our 'top 3' prospects, at least how our organization ranks them.

And for Rauch to be on that list over Cotts, Wing, etc is ridiculous in my mind.

Webster and Reed are right on the top. I have to think that the Sox aren't giving up any great prospects. I think it will be 3 average guys.

chosk8
07-02-2003, 11:00 AM
My thinking is that it will be at least 2 pitchers just because Texas is in dire need of pitching. And I'd also say they'd be looking for at least one who they could throw in the rotation right away.

MHOUSE
07-02-2003, 11:37 AM
I hold judgement on the trades until the 2 or 3 players are named. If they're lower level prospects then that's great. If he gives up too much then I might be nervous about it all. Rios is a good riddance, he played well enough to start out and then lost it and has sucked. He'll become a free agent. Jimenez will proabably be traded so at least we'll get something back. He's a schmuck. I can see that he works the count well and walks and was hitting around .300 but now he's back around .250 and his lackadasical play and lack of focus can't be changed. Klesko said he was the laziest player ever a year ago and it rings true again. There's no reason to keep him.

xil357
07-02-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
Think of it this way...Sox make the playoffs or they keep these guys and fall short.

In the offseason they say, they aren't going to sign them.

Heres what happens
-Two First Rounders for Alomar as compensation for him leaving
-At least one for Everett and I'd guess it would be two
-You'd get a compensation for Jose (Not sure when)
-You'd get 2 1st rounders for Colon



I support the deals for Alomar and Everett, but I hope that Borchard, Honel, Cotts, Webster, Reed, Wing, etc. are not among the possible PTBNL. If KW gambles by dealing one of these studs, and the Sox don't win it all, it will go down as a failure.

I personally would have preferred a deal with the Marlins for Castillo and Pierre, but beggars can't be choosers and on the bright side KW has obtained experienced AL run producers who hit lefty. I still worry about the CF defense, whether it is Everett, Harris or Rowand out there. Perhaps they can get Pierre and Castillo after the season, though, because I believe they may be better long-term answers at the critical positions of 2B and CF.

If the Sox win it all this year I promise to relish it and never complain about selling out the future.

I also like the "fallback" plan of letting the free-agents to be go as free agents at the end of the season if the Sox don't win it all (or, heck, even if they do). (I would try to sign Colon, however)

However, do the Sox have to offer arbitration to the player to qualify for the compensatory pick if he ends up signing elsewhere? If so, what would prevent the player -- who is represented by agents who can read the depressed market -- from then accepting the arbitration? Would the Sox then be stuck with a bunch of geezers?

I honestly do not know the answers to these questions so I would appreciate a factual answer, if possible.

Paulwny
07-02-2003, 11:56 AM
I like the new thinking, win today, worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.