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View Full Version : Jiminez and Rios to be designated for assignment!


PaleHoseGeorge
07-01-2003, 10:37 PM
According to Bruce Levine.

Talk amongst yourselves.

ilsox7
07-01-2003, 10:38 PM
There is a God.

MarkEdward
07-01-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
According to Bruce Levine.

Talk amongst yourselves.

Ewww. That means Harris stays on the team.

Rios doesn't have to accept this, right? Methinks he's going to become a free agent.

LuvSox
07-01-2003, 10:38 PM
was hoping DJ got traded

lowesox
07-01-2003, 10:39 PM
I like Harris staying now that we have a real CF and 2b. He'll be a good late inning pinch runner.

Brian26
07-01-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Ewww. That means Harris stays on the team.

Rios doesn't have to accept this, right? Methinks he's going to become a free agent.

Of course he will. Good riddance. Has anyone forgotten a couple of Sundays ago when Rios couldn't get that bunt down with guys on base late in the game?

I love having Harris on the team. He's got great speed and is versatile. He can fill in at 2nd or CF.

Jiminez has all kinds of talent, but terrible work ethic and he's dumber than Durham was. Good riddance. Smart teams win baseball games.

MarkEdward
07-01-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Of course he will. Good riddance. Has anyone forgotten a couple of Sundays ago when Rios couldn't get that bunt down with guys on base late in the game?

He's a veteran, and could hook on with a team like Detroit or Tampa. He's not totally useless.

I love having Harris on the team. He's got great speed and is versatile. He can fill in at 2nd or CF.

Don't you love that .224 OBP? Or maybe the .232 SLG?

Jiminez has all kinds of talent, but terrible work ethic and he's dumber than Durham was. Good riddance. Smart teams win baseball games.

Good players win baseball games. Jimenez is a good player.

jeremyb1
07-01-2003, 10:54 PM
i'm glad we're finally cutting rios loose. that's wonderful news. as for sending jimenez down...i hope harris never bats for us again. maybe he'll be a pinch runner. otherwise, terrible move.

Lip Man 1
07-01-2003, 11:02 PM
Jimenez blows... end of discussion. Stats be damned.

As far as Rios, I hope he sticks around. In limited action he's driven in some runs. When the rosters are expanded in September he could be another bat off the bench and might contribute in a game or two.

Lip

kevingrt
07-01-2003, 11:02 PM
They also could decline it and become free agents, which would not be surprising at all.

THE_HOOTER
07-01-2003, 11:09 PM
I cant believe it Lip, but I agree with you 100%.

Stats be damned Jimenez is just a horrible player. If he did anything positive in a game, he gave back with a mistake later in the game.

Harris may be limited at the plate, but he can run, and plays 2 positions pretty well.

Rios, however, I will not miss. With rowand on the bench, he will get no playing time.

Tragg
07-01-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Ewww. That means Harris stays on the team.



Harris is versatile; last week, we lost the most versatile player in baseball, so he fills that void.

My vote still goes to Konerko to Charolotte; he's completely unusable on this roster.

MHOUSE
07-01-2003, 11:12 PM
KW is admitting two mistakes in getting Jimenez and Rios. He dumps them and gets a real CF and a real 2B. Is this the White Sox? What's going on?

rmusacch
07-01-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt
They also could decline it and become free agents, which would not be surprising at all.

That is working out pretty good for Josh Paul, eh? :)

PaleHoseGeorge
07-01-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Harris is versatile; last week, we lost the most versatile player in baseball, so he fills that void.

:versatile
"I'm waiting by the phone here in Buffalo Grove!"


Originally posted by Tragg
My vote still goes to Konerko to Charolotte; he's completely unusable on this roster.

:walnuts
"It's a good thing everyone thinks I'm such a 'good team player.' Otherwise someone might notice just how selfish I'm being."

Daver
07-01-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
KW is admitting two mistakes in getting Jimenez and Rios. He dumps them and gets a real CF and a real 2B. Is this the White Sox? What's going on?

KW didn't make a mistake acquiring Jiminez,he gave up nothing to acquire him,it was a gamble that didn't work out,similiar to Julio Ramirez.

MarkEdward
07-01-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by daver
KW didn't make a mistake acquiring Jiminez,he gave up nothing to acquire him,it was a gamble that didn't work out,similiar to Julio Ramirez.

Why hasn't it worked out? Jimenez still has an OBP above .330, which many teams would love to have. He should still be on the team, and we'll probably regret not keeping him on the roster.

Julio Ramirez was a big mistake. Jimemez has been a big success.

Tragg
07-01-2003, 11:22 PM
Rios was just an off-season FA signing.
Jiminez is goofy, but he did help us this year. He got on base a lot in the first 2 months of the season, when we were starved for runs. We traded some bozo to the padres to get him - I don't remember who. I thank him for his services, and now he can go whereever he wants.

Harris is, I guess, what we got for the forgettable Singleton. Harris is okay - he's fast, doing a little better offensively. Beating out what would have been the second half of the double play on Saturday was critical.

Daver
07-01-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Why hasn't it worked out? Jimenez still has an OBP above .330, which many teams would love to have. He should still be on the team, and we'll probably regret not keeping him on the roster.

Julio Ramirez was a big mistake. Jimemez has been a big success.

Jiminez has to be the laziest ballplayer I have seen in a long time,I don't care what his numbers are,plain and simple,if you are not going to give it 100 % when you are getting paid to play a game,then you are going to find yourself on the outside looking in.

FarWestChicago
07-01-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by daver
Jiminez has to be the laziest ballplayer I have seen in a long time,I don't care what his numbers are,plain and simple,if you are not going to give it 100 % when you are getting paid to play a game,then you are going to find yourself on the outside looking in. :buddylee

That's what I always said, too!!

HawkDJ
07-01-2003, 11:32 PM
It's too bad that it had to come to this because Jimenez is talented. Unfortunately he is just stupid, lazy or probably both. Like Daver said, he doesn't try 100%, he makes stupid mistakes defensively and he makes stupid baserunning mistakes.

MarkEdward
07-01-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by daver
Jiminez has to be the laziest ballplayer I have seen in a long time,I don't care what his numbers are,plain and simple,if you are not going to give it 100 % when you are getting paid to play a game,then you are going to find yourself on the outside looking in.

Well, I never thought Jimenez was very lazy. Fundamentally unsound? Yes. Lazy? Not really. He made stupid mistakes, but he always ran out grounders, slid hard into second, and took hard slides from runners while trying to turn the double play.

If I'm the Rays or Tigers, I'm definitely looking to get DJ.

Jjav829
07-01-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


:walnuts
"It's a good thing everyone thinks I'm such a 'good team player.' Otherwise someone might notice just how selfish I'm being."

Umm, how is Konerko being selfish? :?:

voodoochile
07-01-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Umm, how is Konerko being selfish? :?:

By not asking to go to AAA and work on his swing... They can't send him down, he has to request the demotion...

MetalliSox
07-01-2003, 11:42 PM
Geez, come back and their are 500 posts. Not sure if someone mentioned this, but Jiminez and Rios will be designated for assigment tomorrow to clear room for Alomar and Everett.

Not sure if they are gone or what.

rmusacch
07-01-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
By not asking to go to AAA and work on his swing... They can't send him down, he has to request the demotion...

Can't they ask him to and he has the option to say yes or no?

Konerkoholic
07-01-2003, 11:45 PM
MarkEdward, how can you keep defending Jimenez? Did you watch this guy play? It seems like you just read his stats and assume he did a great job. The fact is, he was never focused for a full 9 innings. He cost the team games. Clearly KW saw this and decided to take action. SO to D'Angelo Jimenez, thank you for the single that beat the Cubs, but otherwise good riddance.

Unregistered
07-01-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
Geez, come back and their are 500 posts. Not sure if someone mentioned this, but Jiminez and Rios will be designated for assigment tomorrow to clear room for Alomar and Everett. You may be referring to the "Jiminez and Rios to be designated for assignment!" thread thats about 40 posts in... :D:

doublem23
07-01-2003, 11:46 PM
Jimenez > Harris

Rios > Rowand

What the ****???

doublem23
07-01-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
MarkEdward, how can you keep defending Jimenez? Did you watch this guy play? It seems like you just read his stats and assume he did a great job. The fact is, he was never focused for a full 9 innings. He cost the team games. Clearly KW saw this and decided to take action. SO to D'Angelo Jimenez, thank you for the single that beat the Cubs, but otherwise good riddance.

You can't honestly be saying Harris is better than D'Angelo.

Ridiculous.

jeremyb1
07-01-2003, 11:47 PM
the comments i've read about jimenez are setting new lows for irrationality on this board. "stats be damned he is a terrible player". ok well stats be damned i think barry bonds is a terrible player. he's old so he doesn't move around really well in the outfield and i don't like his attitude in the clubhouse i think he's terrible. stats are the only objective measurement of a player's performance, so if we're not going to use them then you can claim anything you want to and i can't argue against you other than saying "no you're wrong".

does anyone actually sit down and logically consider what is better to have a league average hitter who makes the occasional blunder in the field or on the basepaths (he only has 8 or 9 errors at 2B and can anyone list a baserunning blunder other than when he didn't score from second against the twins?) or a hitter with a .200 on base percentage? look at it this way, jimenez gets on base more than one time more than harris every ten at bats (roughly two games). therefore, jimenez can make one error every two games (that'd be 81 errors on the season, 60 more than he's on pace for) or run himself into an out on the basepath once every two games and still contribute more to this team than harris!!!!!

i'm sorry but have some of you completely lost the ability to objectively consider facts without letting your frustrations from watching this team completely cloud your thinking? there's just absolutely no way you can argue harris is better than jimenez other than "because i say so" which doesn't get you very far.

Konerkoholic
07-01-2003, 11:47 PM
Harris hustles his ass off, can bunt, knows how to run the bases, and plays good defense at 2 positions. Jimenez deserved to lose his job. Armando Rios? His swing is long and he has no patience. Rowand looks good at the plate and I think the Sox made exactly the right moves.

voodoochile
07-01-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Jimenez > Harris

Rios > Rowand

What the ****???

Too much tinkerability. Get rid of the veterans who have been starting or gripe about playing time. That way, Manuel has to play Everett and Alomar everyday...

Konerkoholic
07-01-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
can anyone list a baserunning blunder other than when he didn't score from second against the twins?)

That time he got into a run-down to end the game in Arizona was very bad.

ilsox7
07-01-2003, 11:49 PM
jeremy b.: I think the point is that those errors have been very very costly. Plus, Sox fans can tick off Jimenez baserunning gaffes with ease. Not too many stats available for stupid baserunning plays. Bottom line is if you have watched him play this year and have listened to what his TEAMMATES say about him, DJ is not wanted on this team, nor does he deserve to be on this team.

Tragg
07-01-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
[
i'm sorry but have some of you completely lost the ability to objectively consider facts without letting your frustrations from watching this team completely cloud your thinking? there's just absolutely no way you can argue harris is better than jimenez other than "because i say so" which doesn't get you very far. [/B]
People have provided arguments - you just don't agree with them.
Another thing to consider - Jiminez OBP since he was at .400 in May.

voodoochile
07-01-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the comments i've read about jimenez are setting new lows for irrationality on this board. "stats be damned he is a terrible player". ok well stats be damned i think barry bonds is a terrible player. he's old so he doesn't move around really well in the outfield and i don't like his attitude in the clubhouse i think he's terrible. stats are the only objective measurement of a player's performance, so if we're not going to use them then you can claim anything you want to and i can't argue against you other than saying "no you're wrong".

does anyone actually sit down and logically consider what is better to have a league average hitter who makes the occasional blunder in the field or on the basepaths (he only has 8 or 9 errors at 2B and can anyone list a baserunning blunder other than when he didn't score from second against the twins?) or a hitter with a .200 on base percentage? look at it this way, jimenez gets on base more than one time more than harris every ten at bats (roughly two games). therefore, jimenez can make one error every two games (that'd be 81 errors on the season, 60 more than he's on pace for) or run himself into an out on the basepath once every two games and still contribute more to this team than harris!!!!!

i'm sorry but have some of you completely lost the ability to objectively consider facts without letting your frustrations from watching this team completely cloud your thinking? there's just absolutely no way you can argue harris is better than jimenez other than "because i say so" which doesn't get you very far.

Man does this bring back memories of a 16 YO Kermit or what? Any other old timers want to chime in here?

Stats are a nice measuring stick, but they never tell the whole story. You think Jimenez is going to be happy batting and playing once a week? You really want to see him at 3B everytime the other team sends out a RH starter? He has to go if for no other reason than to force Manuel to cut out the crap.

jeremyb1
07-01-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Jimenez > Harris

Rios > Rowand

What the ****???

i certainly agree with you on the jimenez vs. harris issue but i definately feel rowand will be much better than rios for the rest of the season assuming he can be at all effective in a part time role. rowand has hit incredibly well since returning and even if he only produces as well as rios would've the rest of the way the fact that he's younger and plays better defense makes it worth keeping him.

jeremyb1
07-01-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by ilsox7
jeremy b.: I think the point is that those errors have been very very costly. Plus, Sox fans can tick off Jimenez baserunning gaffes with ease. Not too many stats available for stupid baserunning plays. Bottom line is if you have watched him play this year and have listened to what his TEAMMATES say about him, DJ is not wanted on this team, nor does he deserve to be on this team.

that's exactly my point. people want a player that will help us win less than jimenez because he frustrates them less. that's not a good way to build a ball club.

ilsox7
07-01-2003, 11:54 PM
that's exactly my point. people want a player that will help us win less than jimenez because he frustrates them less. that's not a good way to build a ball club.

Maybe I wasn't clear. When you've got a guy who makes critical errors AND numerous horrible baserunning mistakes, that's bad. Add to that teammates who dislike him and it's rather obvious he needs to go.

MarkEdward
07-01-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
MarkEdward, how can you keep defending Jimenez? Did you watch this guy play? It seems like you just read his stats and assume he did a great job. The fact is, he was never focused for a full 9 innings. He cost the team games. Clearly KW saw this and decided to take action. SO to D'Angelo Jimenez, thank you for the single that beat the Cubs, but otherwise good riddance.

Yes, I've already stated that Jimenez is not a smart player. On a team of very good players, DJ would stick out like a sore thumb. However, prior to July 1st, out team was filled with crap. Case in point:
Paul Konerko- .525 OPS
Joe Crede- .621 OPS
Willie Harris- .456 OPS
Aaron Rowand- .633 OPS

So as you can see, our offense sucked. Jimenez had an OPS of .742. At one time, he had the second-highest OBP on the club. So while he was making mistakes, he was also helping this team. In my opinion, his offensive contributions greatly outnumbered his mistakes.

Here's a question to the Jimenez detractors: who has been more valuable this season, Willie Harris or D'Angelo Jimenez. Harris has crappy numbers and makes few mistakes while Jimenez has good numbers and makes a few more mistakes.

jeremyb1
07-01-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
People have provided arguments - you just don't agree with them.
Another thing to consider - Jiminez OBP since he was at .400 in May.

people have provided arguments they have not provided any support for their arguments. i can say that the sky is purple not blue but unless i take some steps towards presenting support that my claim is true you'd be a fool to believe me since hard data can be presented which appears to prove the sky is blue.

jimenez's on base percentage hasn't been stellar since may by any stretch of the imagination but i'm quite sure its better than .200 which is the highest harris' has been all season long. also, there's no reason to believe that since jimenez has struggled recently he will continue to struggle. if that logic holds up we just traded for a player that will be one of the worst hitters in baseball for the rest of the season. everett had a horendous month of june.

Tragg
07-01-2003, 11:56 PM
If I had to pick either Jim or Harris as starting 2b, I'd pick Jiminez

As a bench player, which is what either jiminez or harris would be, I would pick Harris. He can play the outfield and he can run.

As for Rios/Rowand, I don't know. But what I do know is that is an important bench/ph/dh position and whoever is there MUST hit because we already have a spot completely wasted by konerko.

Irishsox1
07-01-2003, 11:57 PM
Jiminez was the ultimate double edged sword. Great one inning, the dumbest player I've ever seen the next. That play in Minnesota when he was on second and didn't score on Maggs hit was the last straw for me. Of course I was thinking playing Willie, not Roberto Alomar!!

As for Rios, I think the last straw for me was when he was moaning about not playing. You look at a part time player like Daubach and think thats the way it should be. Keep your mouth shut, give your best to the team effort and play smart.

voodoochile
07-01-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
people have provided arguments they have not provided any support for their arguments. i can say that the sky is purple not blue but unless i take some steps towards presenting support that my claim is true you'd be a fool to believe me since hard data can be presented which appears to prove the sky is blue.

Why is the sky blue, because it reflects the oceans. Why is the ocean blue? Because it reflects the sky...

You have much to learn, grasshopper... :D:

Tragg
07-02-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Man does this bring back memories of a 16 YO Kermit or what? Any other old timers want to chime in here?


I wasn't around for a 16 year old Kermit, but I do remember a 16 year old (or thereabouts) Tragg when Bill Veeck traded my favorite Sox ever, Bucky Dent, for Oscar Gamble.
No internet in those days - all i could use was pen, paper, envelope and stamp. I must have written Veeck 5 or 6 letters of disgust that week.

jeremyb1
07-02-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Man does this bring back memories of a 16 YO Kermit or what? Any other old timers want to chime in here?

Stats are a nice measuring stick, but they never tell the whole story. You think Jimenez is going to be happy batting and playing once a week? You really want to see him at 3B everytime the other team sends out a RH starter? He has to go if for no other reason than to force Manuel to cut out the crap.

i'm not arguing that stats tell the entire story by any means. look at my post i absolutely acknoledge the fact that jimenez's base running and fielding have hurt the team and that harris provides these tasks better. however, what you're assuming is that since the statistical measurement of offense tells a much smaller part of the story than it actually does.

for whatever reason most people seem to assume that since players have different attributes such as defense, baserunning, hitting, and presence in the clubhouse that all these factors equal each other. however, the notion that willie harris is better than bonds if he gets along with his teamates is ridiculous. the notion that willie harris is better than jimenez because he makes one fewer baserunning/fielding mistake each week is almost equally riduculous in my mind since in the course of a week each player would've had around 30 at bats in which harris would've reached base 6 times while jimenez would've reached base 10 times. therefore, in this case the players offensive production is about four times more important that their fielding/baserunning/clubhouse presence. even if you want to make jimenez out to be the worst player ever at fielding, baserunning, and presence in the clubhouse his offense, he's still at least twice as valuable as harris.

ilsox7
07-02-2003, 12:10 AM
the notion that willie harris is better than jimenez because he makes one fewer baserunning/fielding mistake each week is almost equally riduculous in my mind

You gotta look at the situation though. Whoever stays is gonna be a late inning replacement. Harris provides more versatility. He can play 2nd AND the outfield. He is also much faster than DJ and can steal a base. You want guys who are good baserunners to be pinch runners. DJ definitely does not fit into the category of "good baserunners."

doublem23
07-02-2003, 12:11 AM
Man, I do remember a strong following of Sox fans who wanted to dump Jon Garland and Mark Buehrle earlier this year because they didn't "like" them (Jon doesn't like to get booed.. What a *****! Mark wants to be in St. Louis? What a traitor!), nor were they performing...

KW may not be as dumb as I think.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i'm not arguing that stats tell the entire story by any means. look at my post i absolutely acknoledge the fact that jimenez's base running and fielding have hurt the team and that harris provides these tasks better. however, what you're assuming is that since the statistical measurement of offense tells a much smaller part of the story than it actually does.

for whatever reason most people seem to assume that since players have different attributes such as defense, baserunning, hitting, and presence in the clubhouse that all these factors equal each other. however, the notion that willie harris is better than bonds if he gets along with his teamates is ridiculous. the notion that willie harris is better than jimenez because he makes one fewer baserunning/fielding mistake each week is almost equally riduculous in my mind since in the course of a week each player would've had around 30 at bats in which harris would've reached base 6 times while jimenez would've reached base 10 times. therefore, in this case the players offensive production is about four times more important that their fielding/baserunning/clubhouse presence. even if you want to make jimenez out to be the worst player ever at fielding, baserunning, and presence in the clubhouse his offense, he's still at least twice as valuable as harris.

You keep bringing up Barry Bonds. You aren't actually making the case that he the two are comparable players are you?

Who is the better bench player, Jimenez or Harris? Depends on what you are looking for. The Sox are going to need a LOT less pinch hitters now with two of the main problem slots changed to veteran studs. So, maybe you want a guy who is eager to play, but willing to do whatever the team needs (defensive replacement, pinch runner, etc.) as opposed to a guy who has mental lapses while in the field and hasn't been effective pinch hitting in his chances. There is also the tinkerability factor. Maybe KW is intentionally trying to limit JM's options - making his choices more clear cut does that.

Rios shot off his mouth and is gone. No loss. Jimenez regularly made poor showings in at least one aspect of his game and seems to let his attention wander. Is that the recipe for a good bench player? No.

It isn't all about the stats here and that is what people are trying to say...

doublem23
07-02-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i certainly agree with you on the jimenez vs. harris issue but i definately feel rowand will be much better than rios for the rest of the season assuming he can be at all effective in a part time role. rowand has hit incredibly well since returning and even if he only produces as well as rios would've the rest of the way the fact that he's younger and plays better defense makes it worth keeping him.

I'm much more confident in Rios as a pinch hitter than Rowand, which is what his role will pretty much be.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
I'm much more confident in Rios as a pinch hitter than Rowand, which is what his role will pretty much be.

Exactly who are we planning on regularly pinch hitting for in this lineup? Crede? Once a week?

At last a lineup that even Jerry can't screw up. If he doesn't play the guys they got, KW will surely fire him...

MarkEdward
07-02-2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Exactly who are we planning on regularly pinch hitting for in this lineup? Crede? Once a week?


Alomar doesn't hit well against lefties (.500 OPS). Neither does Everett (.672 OPS). Those could be two candidates...

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Alomar doesn't hit well against lefties (.500 OPS). Neither does Everett (.672 OPS). Those could be two candidates...

Oh please don't give Manuel any ideas, besides, I thought Jimenz was much worse from the right side and Rios bats lefty, so he wouldn't be called upon in that situation...

MarkEdward
07-02-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh please don't give Manuel any ideas, besides, I thought Jimenz was much worse from the right side and Rios bats lefty, so he wouldn't be called upon in that situation...

Actually, Jimenez really didn't have much of an advantage against lefties or righties (.732 vs. .745 OPS). He got on base better against lefties (.357 vs. .325 OBP), but had a better slugging % against righties (.420 vs. .375 SLG).

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Actually, Jimenez really didn't have much of an advantage against lefties or righties (.732 vs. .745 OPS). He got on base better against lefties (.357 vs. .325 OBP), but had a better slugging % against righties (.420 vs. .375 SLG).

I stand corrected. I still think there are other factors at work here. I really don't see a guy with Jimenez's mental makeup doing well in a benchriding/PH role. I also don't want to see Manuel throwing him out at 3B every time he gets a whim...

jeremyb1
07-02-2003, 12:41 AM
thing is you have to consider who our manager is. manuel tends to work everyone in the lineup and give everyone at bats so it seems unlikely that harris will be a non factor offensively at this point. as for a defensive replacement i don't see how harris will ever be used. he certainly won't be replacing alomar late in the game and rowand seems to be both the better and more popular option as a defensive replacement in center. if harris were to be used primarily as a pinch runner i wouldn't complain but i do not see that happening.

Chisoxfn
07-02-2003, 02:09 AM
Is Jimenez be designated official. I've seen it official in regards to Rios, but haven't seen anything yet other then hearing that Jimenez is getting sent.

Right now I think that another move may be on the way.

pudge
07-02-2003, 02:26 AM
Here's my feelings about Harris v. Jimenez... since Alomar is now going to play 2B all the time, Jimenez is better served playing somewhere else. I agree with jeremey that Jimenez is talented and more valuable than people on this board give him credit for. Yes, Jimenez has made some blunders, but so have a lot of Sox players these past few months. Jimenez has some raw talent, and I am sorry to see him go, because I think he could be a good full-time player someday when he gets more familiar with the game. But Harris is clearly the better role player, such as a defensive replacement and pinch runner. Harris has hustled his butt off and I'm glad to see him stick around.

Finally, see ya Rios! Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!

gosox41
07-02-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
He's a veteran, and could hook on with a team like Detroit or Tampa. He's not totally useless.



Don't you love that .224 OBP? Or maybe the .232 SLG?



Good players win baseball games. Jimenez is a good player.

Jimenez is a good player. He's just stupid. That being said, I'd rather keep him up here abnd send down a reliever.

Bob

gosox41
07-02-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
Harris is versatile; last week, we lost the most versatile player in baseball, so he fills that void.


Who?

WhiteSox = Life
07-02-2003, 06:22 AM
:versatile
"Who else?"

DrCrawdad
07-02-2003, 06:27 AM
I'm still pissed that Manuel pinch hit Rios for Olivo in Sunday's game.

Rios is an terrible outfielder too.

Rios gone? Great, I'll help pack that slugs bags.

Rios, take you're whiny, bitching ways and the %$# outta here!

Zednem700
07-02-2003, 10:24 AM
I'm sorry, but if you're going to move someone besides Rios, move Harris. Harris can be sent down without risk of losing him (I believe) if we designate D'Angelo, he's gone, for nothing. Harris is fast and can bunt, oooh. Sorry, but who the hell cares?

The guys he would back up are better hitters from the left side, so there's no platoon advantage in keeping him. He's fast, but so was Herb Washington, fast just isn't that rare or that valuable. The five times a season when that speed is really needed will not make up for the DOZENS of times his bat, or lack thereof, will hurt the team. Is Harris as bad as these 90 odd at bats, probably not, but he isn't as good as his last 100 AAA at bats either. Realistically his bat will be less valuabe than DJ's when you factor in the platoon issues.

From the right side, Alomar is hitting .171 .244 .256!!!!!! I'd say that was Konerkoesque, but even Konerko is hitting better than that. Sit Alomar against lefties, or at the very least, tough ones, and play Jimenez. Give DJ the OCCASIONAL day at 3rd, Crede should have a day off every once in a while especally when a tough right hander is on the hill, and start him against lefties and the Sox should near their optimal level of production. Also, for the love of god bench Valentin against lefties, he's actually hitting worse than Alomar right-handed .161 .250 .179! Tony and DJ against lefties, and Jose and Alomar against righties, now THAT is the way to get the most from what we have.

Oh yeah, Everett's days off should come when lefties are on the mound, even though at .243 .316 .357 he looks like Lou Gehrig compared to Alomar and Valentin.

dougs78
07-02-2003, 10:44 AM
I'm completely with Jeremy on this one. If you think Harris better than Jimenez you are kidding yourself. You are also making that based completely with your heart and not at all with your brain. I have watched all of 10-15 games this year being out of town, so I have not seen this laziness, ineptitude you are talking about with DJ. You may feel that makes me less qualified to make judgments on him, but I think in some ways that makes me more qualified. I've "watched" probably 80% of the games on the internet and by doing that i only get to see results. And by that measure DJ has been one of our most valuable players this season. Sure hes been in a slump lately, but remember how valuable he was at the beginning??

FAns can be so fickle sometimes. If anyone had even suggested we drop Jimenez for Harris about 1.5 months ago they would have been laughed off this board. Just becuase DJ frustrates you, and you like Willies speed, does not change the objective truth.

longshot7
07-02-2003, 11:00 AM
why is the sky blue?

because if it were green, we wouldn't know where to stop mowing.

Jerko
07-02-2003, 11:39 AM
Rios got demoted because he was seen and photographed in the Times doing the wave Tuesday night.

guillen4life13
07-02-2003, 12:19 PM
I think a lot of you will agree with me on this one, but everyone, hear me out:

As it stands right now, Jimenez would be put on the bench... right? Why do we need him on the bench, when we already have Tony Graffanino, who plays every infield position pretty well, doesn't complain, and when needed, can go in and pinch run. Meanwhile, Harris doubles as a 2B/CF, and those are arguably the two hardest defensive positions (besides catcher, and I feel shortstop is equal to 2B). Rowand plays each and every outfield position, and is the best RBI guy from the bench.

My point? Jimenez=Graffanino-laziness-stupidity.

Case closed, unless anyone wants to reopen it within the next few minutes. :D:

DrCrawdad
07-02-2003, 12:44 PM
ChicagoSports.com, July 2, 2003, 12:11 PM CDT
To make room on the roster for Roberto Alomar and Carl Everett, the White Sox sent infielder D'Angelo Jimenez and outfielder Armando Rios to the minors.

This was just posted, so I suppose this means that Rios and Jimenez cleared waivers without any teams claiming them. Then too did the two must have accepted the minor league assignment and not pursued free agency, correct?

Dadawg_77
07-02-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700

From the right side, Alomar is hitting .171 .244 .256!!!!!! I'd say that was Konerkoesque, but even Konerko is hitting better than that. Sit Alomar against lefties, or at the very least, tough ones, and play Jimenez. Give DJ the OCCASIONAL day at 3rd, Crede should have a day off every once in a while especally when a tough right hander is on the hill, and start him against lefties and the Sox should near their optimal level of production. Also, for the love of god bench Valentin against lefties, he's actually hitting worse than Alomar right-handed .161 .250 .179! Tony and DJ against lefties, and Jose and Alomar against righties, now THAT is the way to get the most from what we have. Oh yeah, Everett's days off should come when lefties are on the mound, even though at .243 .316 .357 he looks like Lou Gehrig compared to Alomar and Valentin.

The Sox also have to make room on their 40 man for Robie and Carl. So they might have to get rid of someone, instead of making a minor trade such as Hummel for a young prospect, they cut two guys from the major league team. Secondly DJ would have been a better on the Sox then Harris, because while you think Harris is the next Josh Paul, he really limits what you can do. DJ would have made a good platoon partner with Alomar and Jose. Instead we will send Jose and Robie vs lefties since Harris has a tough time hitting vs any major league pitching. I like the trade but how to get the guys on the roster could have been handled better instead of what appears to be a knee jerk reaction.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2003, 01:12 PM
I'll preface this, as I often do, by conceding that I don't get to see as many games as you guys do, but from what I've seen, Harris has more of an up side than Jiminez does. He's been much better defensively at second. I was very impressed with how quickly he started that 4-6-3 DP last night, and no one can argue with his range. Every time I've seen Jiminez play he seems to botch something up, even if it's not called an error.

Harris has been getting much better at putting the ball into play on the ground, which, with his speed, will translate into making things happen. They say that Greg Walker is telling management that Harris will hit, that it's only a matter of time. I'm sure that the coaches had input on who to move to make room.

mack10zie
07-02-2003, 01:24 PM
It seems to me that all the argument in this thread is simply two groups arguing essentially different things. One group is arguing that Jiminez is the better player. I agree with this. All-around, if we were to have the option of Jiminez or Harris as an everyday player I'd take Jiminez in a heart beat. BUT, this isn't what the argument is about, these guys wouldn't be getting many opportunities to start games and get multiple at bats in games, so the offensive side of the argument is a WHOLE LOT LESS meaningful than it would be if they were vying for an everyday job. Since their main role will most likely be to be late-inning defensive replacements and pinch runner then IMO Harris is the better guy for the job. He's better defensively, and can play two positions well. Plus he's faster and an all-around better baserunner by far. In the grand scheme of things Jiminez is probably the better baseball player, but in this role Harris is the better option.

SoxOnTop
07-02-2003, 01:36 PM
Still, I'd hate to see us get nothing in return for DJ. By getting Robbie and Carl on the same day KW's hand is forced and it's not likely we can get anything for DJ. :(:

I have to think that someone would have been willing to give us at least a marginal prospect for him. Perhaps, Florida? If they are indeed looking to dump Casitllo.

voodoochile
07-02-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Still, I'd hate to see us get nothing in return for DJ. By getting Robbie and Carl on the same day KW's hand is forced and it's not likely we can get anything for DJ. :(:

I have to think that someone would have been willing to give us at least a marginal prospect for him. Perhaps, Florida? If they are indeed looking to dump Casitllo.

Now that I agree with, but I want to add one final point that no one has brought up yet.

2 weeks ago JM said that players would be held accountable for their on field play. Everyone said, "It's about damn time." The main person that everyone griped about was Jimenez. Yet, after that statement, Jimenez made boneheaded play after boneheaded play and nothing changed. Now he is gone. That sends a strong message to the team about expectations. I don't find it surprising that Rios is the other half of the equation after his comments on Sunday. Management is saying, "Shut up and play. And, play like a team. No griping, no arguing, no problems - just play the position we want you to play, or don't play here. In addition, play like every play matters, because - to us - it does. Either do your job quietly, efficiently and with the best interests of the team in your heart, or go away."

There is NOTHING wrong with that, period.

jeremyb1
07-02-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by mack10zie
It seems to me that all the argument in this thread is simply two groups arguing essentially different things. One group is arguing that Jiminez is the better player. I agree with this. All-around, if we were to have the option of Jiminez or Harris as an everyday player I'd take Jiminez in a heart beat. BUT, this isn't what the argument is about, these guys wouldn't be getting many opportunities to start games and get multiple at bats in games, so the offensive side of the argument is a WHOLE LOT LESS meaningful than it would be if they were vying for an everyday job. Since their main role will most likely be to be late-inning defensive replacements and pinch runner then IMO Harris is the better guy for the job. He's better defensively, and can play two positions well. Plus he's faster and an all-around better baserunner by far. In the grand scheme of things Jiminez is probably the better baseball player, but in this role Harris is the better option.

i think most of that analysis is accurate but as was stated in other posts, i think its highly unlikely that even with everett and alomar on the team jimenez/harris won't see many at bats the rest of the season. generally that's not the way manuel works things. plus with olivo's and crede's lack of production plus robbie's struggles against lefties there are still a lot of pinch hit opportunities on this club.

most importantly however, this is an issue of who is best for the long term since jimenez is now going to catch on with another club and therefore, after this season when alomar signs with another club, willy harris and his detestable production may be on the field for the sox for 162 games next season. jimenez certainly won't be back from the looks of it.

Daver
07-02-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why is the sky blue, because it reflects the oceans. Why is the ocean blue? Because it reflects the sky...


Wrong.

The sky is blue because if it was green you wouldn't know where to stop mowing.



:bandance:

maurice
07-02-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by daver
The sky is blue because if it was green you wouldn't know where to stop mowing.

Wow. Bonus points for the extremely obscure Night Court reference (unless you got that somewhere else).

Daver
07-02-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Wow. Bonus points for the extremely obscure Night Court reference (unless you got that somewhere else).

I don't even know what Night Court is,that is a phrase my uncle Jedididah used quite often.