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Randar68
06-30-2003, 02:40 PM
They would seem to be a very good match for the Sox as a trading partner.

Castillo and Pierre would definitely help fill gaping holes in the offense and defense.

Castillo makes 4.5 million or so, and Pierre 1 million. I don't know how long their current contracts run, but maybe the Sox could fill 2 holes at once?

Jimenez only makes 345K, so he could be a possibility to replace Castillo at 2B in Florida. What else would it take? I would be willing to give up a player like Cotts and some others to fill both needs at once.

What do people think it would take?

Randar68
06-30-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
What do people think it would take?


Well, what would be even sweeter would be to get Pierre, Lowell, and Castillo. Heck, I'd give them anyone they wanted from AA and AAA plus Crede and Jimenez...

Talk about stealing the thunder from the North Side. Now, where's that pipedream color?

White Stocking
06-30-2003, 02:51 PM
The Sox are committed to Crede, but just to stick it to the Northsiders, wouldn't that be great if they swipped Lowel!

kevingrt
06-30-2003, 02:51 PM
Pierre and Castillo would both fit beautifully on this team. Both would add some defense and a lot of speed on the basepaths. Both fill our worst holes in the field at 2B and CF, only if Rowand or Willie can find their stroke b/c neither are that bad defensively.

I think we would probably have to give up some gifted prospects for them though. Perhaps, Jeremy Reed, Neal Cotts, Joe Crede, Joe Borchard? And hopefully we could get rid of D'Angelo in the process.

I say we put our minds on Castillo first so then Aaron and Willie can battle it out at CF if we can't find a CF. It seems though Aaron is getting his stroke back. Hopefully it stays.

Randar68
06-30-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt
Pierre and Castillo would both fit beautifully on this team. Both would add some defense and a lot of speed on the basepaths. Both fill our worst holes in the field at 2B and CF, only if Rowand or Willie can find their stroke b/c neither are that bad defensively.


I can't imagine how many RBI chances and how effective the 3-4-5 spots would be with that type of speed on the basepaths. Both rarely strike out, both can bunt very well, and both are excellent defensively.

Jimenez is a cheaper option at 2B. Again, to get those 2 guys, we would have to give up some talent or take the brunt of the $$$ in the deal. I don't think you would have to give up more than 1 player out of the AA or AAA prospect options you gave to do it if you included a Jimenez and/or Rowand or Harris...

Money and a cheaper replacement player are the keys for Florida. They may be around .500, but they are in 4th place in their division with no real hopes to move up.

Clarkdog
06-30-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
They would seem to be a very good match for the Sox as a trading partner.

Castillo and Pierre would definitely help fill gaping holes in the offense and defense.

Castillo makes 4.5 million or so, and Pierre 1 million. I don't know how long their current contracts run, but maybe the Sox could fill 2 holes at once?

Jimenez only makes 345K, so he could be a possibility to replace Castillo at 2B in Florida. What else would it take? I would be willing to give up a player like Cotts and some others to fill both needs at once.

What do people think it would take?

Totally agree. A deal with the Marlins may have what we need to get over the hump. A thought:

White Sox to Marlins:
Danny Wright
Aaron Rowand
D'Angelo Jimenez

Marlins to White Sox:
Juan Pierre
Luis Castillo

The rationale for this deal is based upon the Marlins desire to reduce salary while being able to keep Mike Lowell. Lowell is going to demand a big payday a year from now, but Castillo's contract is up before his. I don't think the Marlins are going to deal Lowell to anyone - he's a keeper. In addition, the Marlins have lost three of thier frontline starters and would likely smile on a deal that brought MLB experience to the mound.

For the Sox, you get a great pair of table setters for your 3-6 hitters. looking at the stats DJ's number may be similar to Castillo, but I think the intangible of DJ's laziness/lack of concentration cant be ignored. Plus I love Pierre, he's a real leadoff hitter and an improvement in CF. I love Rowand and his hustle, but we need contact and speed at the top of the lineup. In this deal I also thought about Willie Harris as a substitue for DJ or Rowand, but if Castillo departs in 2004, you still have Willie who then can play 2B, and it allows you to bring up Miles in 2004 to compete with him for the job.

maurice
06-30-2003, 03:36 PM
I've had my eye on Lowell since he popped up in trade talks some time ago. He would directly address our number one problem all season: disappointing offensive production. Adding a bat for the stretch is much more important than adding a starting pitcher, so I'm rooting against rumored deals for Ponson, Weaver, etc. Plus, KW would get bonus points for stealing Lowell away from the scrubs. I'm sure the Sox could put together a competitive package for Lowell (including Crede), or a larger deal including Castillo and/or Pierre. Unfortunately, a trade requires the Sox front office to be in "buy" mode and the Marlins to be in "sell" mode during the next month. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

kevingrt
06-30-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
Totally agree. A deal with the Marlins may have what we need to get over the hump. A thought:

White Sox to Marlins:
Danny Wright
Aaron Rowand
D'Angelo Jimenez

Marlins to White Sox:
Juan Pierre
Luis Castillo

The rationale for this deal is based upon the Marlins desire to reduce salary while being able to keep Mike Lowell. Lowell is going to demand a big payday a year from now, but Castillo's contract is up before his. I don't think the Marlins are going to deal Lowell to anyone - he's a keeper. In addition, the Marlins have lost three of thier frontline starters and would likely smile on a deal that brought MLB experience to the mound.

For the Sox, you get a great pair of table setters for your 3-6 hitters. looking at the stats DJ's number may be similar to Castillo, but I think the intangible of DJ's laziness/lack of concentration cant be ignored. Plus I love Pierre, he's a real leadoff hitter and an improvement in CF. I love Rowand and his hustle, but we need contact and speed at the top of the lineup. In this deal I also thought about Willie Harris as a substitue for DJ or Rowand, but if Castillo departs in 2004, you still have Willie who then can play 2B, and it allows you to bring up Miles in 2004 to compete with him for the job.

Two things about that trade... First off the Marlins probably would want one of our prospects only if they consider Rowand a solid prospect. 2nd we would still need a #5 starter.... I don't know if Rauch, Malone or Cotts or anyone would be ready. I would really like both Pierre and Castillo in a trade though, two great talents, but we would have to pay a lot probably.

Gumshoe
06-30-2003, 03:39 PM
WHY WOULD YOU TRADE JOE CREDE? DUMBEST IDEA EVER, FICKLE SOX FANS

No way we do it. Why? He could be Ventura like for a long time as well as his cost ... nothing for about 4 more years. Quit talking about stupid stuff like that.

Clarkdog
06-30-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by kevingrt
Two things about that trade... First off the Marlins probably would want one of our prospects only if they consider Rowand a solid prospect. 2nd we would still need a #5 starter.... I don't know if Rauch, Malone or Cotts or anyone would be ready. I would really like both Pierre and Castillo in a trade though, two great talents, but we would have to pay a lot probably.

To quote KW (not that do that often): A team that doesn't have $100 million payroll is likely going to have some holes.

IMHO, I'd rather have a hole in the 5 spot in the rotation, rather than up the middle and at the top of the lineup everyday. So I would take my chances with Josh Stewart. In October (if we get there) you won't need him, but you will need guys like Pierre and Castillo.

FJA
06-30-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Well, what would be even sweeter would be to get Pierre, Lowell, and Castillo. Heck, I'd give them anyone they wanted from AA and AAA plus Crede and Jimenez...

Talk about stealing the thunder from the North Side. Now, where's that pipedream color?

Gammons reports Lowell is probably off the trading block. As with any Gammons comment, take it with a grain of salt, but his rationale was pretty sound. He said that even if the Marlins are out of contention, the front office worries there would be more of an uproar now if they traded him than there would be to deal with it after the season. Lowell leads the NL in home runs and is extremely well-liked in Florida. Gammons did report, though, that they'd probably put Castillo and Pierre up as salary dumps instead of Lowell. (This was on the radio while I was in the car, so it's not an exact quote, but it's the general idea of what Gammons said.)

Thunderstruck30
06-30-2003, 03:58 PM
Pierre would be an excellent addition. He is a solid hitter with great speed. Castillo is an improvement over Jimenez. The Marlins would probably also want to get a prospect if we gave them Rowand and Jimenez. Harris, Borchard, Rauch, or possibly Wright would go to Florida along with Rowand and Jimenez. I wouldnt mind giving them Wright because I think that Josh Stewart would be a good replacement for Wright at the #5 spot in the rotation.

Randar68
06-30-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
WHY WOULD YOU TRADE JOE CREDE? DUMBEST IDEA EVER, FICKLE SOX FANS

No way we do it. Why? He could be Ventura like for a long time as well as his cost ... nothing for about 4 more years. Quit talking about stupid stuff like that.


Ummmm, because if the Sox think they are going to contend, they need offense now. Lowell still has one more year on his contract IIRC.

You only trade Crede if you get Lowell in return. I love Crede, but Lowell plays similar defense and is a better hitter by a long margin today.

If the Sox are thinking of going for it over the next 2 years, then you can trade Crede if it brings you Lowell, otherwise, no.

hold2dibber
06-30-2003, 04:01 PM
The Marlins would be the perfect team for the Sox to deal with. Castillo is a FA at the end of the year, so I don't think I would give up the ranch for him (nor do I think the Marlins will be asking for the ranch for him). I would think you could get those two guys for Jimenez, Ginter and Rowand or Harris (with maybe Rudy Yan or some other low ball, B level prospect).

Adding Lowell into the mix would, of course, change things significantly. Despite Gumshoe's reasoned criticism of this idea , I think dealing Crede makes perfect sense if you can get Lowell for him (based upon my belief that Lowell is signed through '04; if not, I'd have to rethink this). To get Lowell, I think the Sox would have to add Crede and one of Borchard, Rauch or Cotts (and maybe another low ball prospect like Yan or Schurstein (sp?)). And I'd do that in a heart beat. Look at the lineup the Sox would then have:

Pierre CF
Castillo 2B
Thomas 1B
Ordonez RF
Lowell 3B
Daubach/Koknerko DH
Lee LF
Valentin SS
Olivo C

That line-up has it all. Talk about stealing the Cubs' thunder and energizing the Sox' fan base (and the clubhouse) -- that would sure as hell do it.

maurice
06-30-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
WHY WOULD YOU TRADE JOE CREDE?

Um, maybe because you only need one third baseman, and because Lowell (25 HR, 68 RBI, .960 OPS, 29 years old) already is better than Crede ever will be? Heck, 25 HR would be a nice FULL SEASON for Crede. Lowell is on pace to hit around 50 HR this year. I'm sure his numbers will fall off a bit, but the Sox biggest priority this year should be to add a big bat.

You have to give up quality to get quality. You're not going to win a bidding war for an All-Star 3B by offering a couple of okay prospects and some cash. Packaging Crede as a younger, cheaper alternative for the Marlins should make the Sox offer stand out.

Thunderstruck30
06-30-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

Pierre CF
Castillo 2B
Thomas 1B
Ordonez RF
Lowell 3B
Daubach/Koknerko DH
Lee LF
Valentin SS
Olivo C

That line-up has it all. Talk about stealing the Cubs' thunder and energizing the Sox' fan base (and the clubhouse) -- that would sure as hell do it.

That would be a terrific lineup. Then theyd have speed and power. Plus the fact that we would steal Lowell from the Cubs would be great.

Clarkdog
06-30-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by FJA
Gammons reports Lowell is probably off the trading block. As with any Gammons comment, take it with a grain of salt, but his rationale was pretty sound. He said that even if the Marlins are out of contention, the front office worries there would be more of an uproar now if they traded him than there would be to deal with it after the season. Lowell leads the NL in home runs and is extremely well-liked in Florida. Gammons did report, though, that they'd probably put Castillo and Pierre up as salary dumps instead of Lowell. (This was on the radio while I was in the car, so it's not an exact quote, but it's the general idea of what Gammons said.)

The Sox have to hop on this - relentlessly. The Marlins have what the Sox need and the Sox have what the Marlins need. They are in opposite leagues so there is no potential competitive issue. Are there any AL teams that would need Pierre and Castillo? I don't think so. This deal can be ours, if the price is right.

Now can KW (or whomever's in charge) avoid getting fleeced? That is the real question.

kermittheefrog
06-30-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Well, what would be even sweeter would be to get Pierre, Lowell, and Castillo. Heck, I'd give them anyone they wanted from AA and AAA plus Crede and Jimenez...

Talk about stealing the thunder from the North Side. Now, where's that pipedream color?

How about we ask them to throw Josh Beckett in there too?

Randar68
06-30-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
How about we ask them to throw Josh Beckett in there too?

Sound good to me! :D:

Seriously, though. If KW isn't at least exploring the Castillo/Pierre possibility, he's abigger dope than I thought. I do think Robbie Alomar has a couple of good years left in him if he get's out of NY, but frankly, I would rather see the Sox pick up Pierre and Castillo.

They need the speed and OBP at the top of the order. Both those guys are hitting for a higher average (and OBP basically outside of Thomas) than anyone on our team now! And for Christ's sake, they know how to bunt and sacrifice, which nobody else on this team does!

Clarkdog
06-30-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I think dealing Crede makes perfect sense if you can get Lowell for him (based upon my belief that Lowell is signed through '04; if not, I'd have to rethink this). To get Lowell, I think the Sox would have to add Crede and one of Borchard, Rauch or Cotts (and maybe another low ball prospect like Yan or Schurstein (sp?)). And I'd do that in a heart beat. Look at the lineup the Sox would then have:

Pierre CF
Castillo 2B
Thomas 1B
Ordonez RF
Lowell 3B
Daubach/Koknerko DH
Lee LF
Valentin SS
Olivo C

That line-up has it all. Talk about stealing the Cubs' thunder and energizing the Sox' fan base (and the clubhouse) -- that would sure as hell do it.

I agree. With our pitching, that is a post-season series winning lineup. But I don't think the Marlins will deal Lowell. Granted, if Lowell is in a Sox uniform - it will do wonders for attendance. But it will alienate the Marlins fan base. The Marlins are not going to deal Lowell. They are going to keep him and build the franchise around him and the young pitching (once it's off the DL).

But this lineup:
Pierre CF
Castillo 2B
Thomas DH/1B
Ordonez RF
Lee LF
Konerko/Daubach DH/1B
Valentine SS
Crede 3B
Olivo C

Can still win a lot of games. The speed at 9, 1, and 2 completely changes the identity of the Sox, and give me chills as to how exciting they could be to watch play together.

Randar68
06-30-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog

But this lineup:
Pierre CF
Castillo 2B
Thomas DH/1B
Ordonez RF
Lee LF
Konerko/Daubach DH/1B
Valentine SS
Crede 3B
Olivo C

Can still win a lot of games. The speed at 9, 1, and 2 completely changes the identity of the Sox, and give me chills as to how exciting they could be to watch play together.


LOL, but don't forget who manages this team. How many days a month would you actually expect to see that lineup out there? :D:

MarkEdward
06-30-2003, 04:36 PM
Quick views:

1. I don't think the Marlins would take Crede. They already have Miguel Cabrera as their third baseman of the future.

2. I'd like to have Castilla (if that means Jimenez moves to short). Great OBP guy, maybe a bit too expensive.

3. I think Lowell's big season has been a bit of a fluke. Look at his OPS+ for the past several years: 108, 106, 116. He's not bad, but he's not as good as his .960 OPS this year would indicate.

4. Pierre is walking a bit more this year, but I don't think that .350 OBP will hold up for most of the year. One must remember: this is the same guy who had a sub-.700 OPS while playing in Coors!

5. To get Pierre, Castillo, and Lowell, we'd have to give up practically our whole farm system. I wouldn't be willing to do that. Yes to Castillo, no to Lowell and Pierre.

6. If we do deal with the Marlins, I really hope we can include Ramon Castro.

Clarkdog
06-30-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LOL, but don't forget who manages this team. How many days a month would you actually expect to see that lineup out there? :D:

LOL.

No doubt. Woudn't surprise me a bit to see Rios platooning for Pierre and leading off.

:jerry

"That's a great idea!"

guillen4life13
06-30-2003, 06:05 PM
How's this for a deal (and you might think I'm joking, but I think this could be a very good PR move as well... although it would never happen):

Sox give up:
Harris
Bruce Kimm
Jimenez
Josh Stewart

Sox get:
Luis Castillo
Ozzie Guillen (as a 3B coach, and he would double as an infield instructor)
Juan Pierre


The Sox get a major upgrade at 2B, and they fill a hole at CF, and they get a damn good baserunning/infield fielding coach. Marlins get a 5th starter, and cut costs at 2B and CF. They also get Kimm as a 3B coach to replace Guillen. I think it could work out quite nicely!

Alas! It would never happen. It's a little outrageous.

gosox41
06-30-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
They would seem to be a very good match for the Sox as a trading partner.

Castillo and Pierre would definitely help fill gaping holes in the offense and defense.

Castillo makes 4.5 million or so, and Pierre 1 million. I don't know how long their current contracts run, but maybe the Sox could fill 2 holes at once?

Jimenez only makes 345K, so he could be a possibility to replace Castillo at 2B in Florida. What else would it take? I would be willing to give up a player like Cotts and some others to fill both needs at once.

What do people think it would take?

I thinkg Castillo may be a better alternative then Alomar who hasn't hit all that much this season.

Bob

gosox41
06-30-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I've had my eye on Lowell since he popped up in trade talks some time ago. He would directly address our number one problem all season: disappointing offensive production. Adding a bat for the stretch is much more important than adding a starting pitcher, so I'm rooting against rumored deals for Ponson, Weaver, etc. Plus, KW would get bonus points for stealing Lowell away from the scrubs. I'm sure the Sox could put together a competitive package for Lowell (including Crede), or a larger deal including Castillo and/or Pierre. Unfortunately, a trade requires the Sox front office to be in "buy" mode and the Marlins to be in "sell" mode during the next month. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

I'm not ready to give up on Crede just yet. The Sox have bigger holes to fill. I'm confident Crede will hit.

Bob

gosox41
06-30-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Um, maybe because you only need one third baseman, and because Lowell (25 HR, 68 RBI, .960 OPS, 29 years old) already is better than Crede ever will be? Heck, 25 HR would be a nice FULL SEASON for Crede. Lowell is on pace to hit around 50 HR this year. I'm sure his numbers will fall off a bit, but the Sox biggest priority this year should be to add a big bat.

You have to give up quality to get quality. You're not going to win a bidding war for an All-Star 3B by offering a couple of okay prospects and some cash. Packaging Crede as a younger, cheaper alternative for the Marlins should make the Sox offer stand out.

I bet the Sox don't trade for Lowell. Just a wild guess but this pure speculation started here has now begun to sound like a realistic possibility to some.

Maybe the Marlins will throw in Beckett too.

Bob

guillen4life13
06-30-2003, 07:27 PM
How's this for a trade?
Sox send:

Josh Stewart
D'Angelo Jimenez
Bruce Kimm
Willie Harris
Jerry Manuel

Sox Get:
Dontrelle Willis
Luis Castillo
Juan Pierre
Ozzie Guillen

Now, is this a little too much pink considering Layne's picture in my sig has him with pink hair?

xil357
06-30-2003, 11:30 PM
To propose seeking Pierre, Castillo (and Lowell) is incredibly bold. But consider these two concerns:

For 2 or 3 of the Marlins' best players, the Sox would have to give up a ton of top tier prospects, like both Borchard AND Reed, in addition to replaceable major leaguers like Rowand, Jiminez or Harris, plus pitching.

Also, I am wary of the National League factor. Will these players have as much success in the superior AL?

If we don't have to give up the farm, then I say go for it, though. Just be wary of the AL/NL factor.

Randar68
07-01-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by xil357
To propose seeking Pierre, Castillo (and Lowell) is incredibly bold. But consider these two concerns:

For 2 or 3 of the Marlins' best players, the Sox would have to give up a ton of top tier prospects, like both Borchard AND Reed, in addition to replaceable major leaguers like Rowand, Jiminez or Harris, plus pitching.


Not in today's economic market. BTW, all the Lowell talk was bogus, and was started under the premise of "pipedream." You need to read the thread a little more carefully. The Marlins need to free salary to try to sign Lowell. IIRC, Pierre is going to be arbitration eligible and Castillo makes almost 5 million. If the Sox eat most of the money, very little in terms of top prospects will be needed.

Originally posted by xil357
Also, I am wary of the National League factor. Will these players have as much success in the superior AL?

If we don't have to give up the farm, then I say go for it, though. Just be wary of the AL/NL factor.

What games have you been watching? The NL East is a FAR superior division (with considerably better pitching) than the AL Central has been in years. Playing the Indians and Tigers 19 games each is a lot better than playing Philly, Atlanta, Montreal and the mets (still 35-46 for a last place team)

Randar68
07-01-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by xil357
To propose seeking Pierre, Castillo (and Lowell) is incredibly bold. But consider these two concerns:

For 2 or 3 of the Marlins' best players, the Sox would have to give up a ton of top tier prospects, like both Borchard AND Reed, in addition to replaceable major leaguers like Rowand, Jiminez or Harris, plus pitching.

Did you see the Florida highlights tonight?

enough said.

AngelLeroy
07-01-2003, 12:46 AM
Yes to Castillo, no to Pierre and Lowell and also Alomar. I have a feeling that Lowell is going to be another Konerko-type player. (puts up huge numbers one year, earns huge contract, then tails off) Also Joe is 2 or 3 years younger than Lowell, has a really good upside, and earns a LOT less.

Pierre could be a good addition, but right now Rowand is hot, and the Sox have some good center-field prospects. (Reed, Anderson and, yes, maybe even Borchard) All three of these guys could possibly be up here in a year or two, and I think Rowand can at LEAST do an adequate job until then. I view center as a strength, or at least an even wash, for the Sox in the future. I don't see a reason to glut this position in the upcoming years.

Alomar is too old. He probably will only play for 1 or 2 more years, still commands a decent contract, has had a few issues in the past, (spitting on umps and such) and IS struggling right now, National League crappy Mets or not. I don't want to see the Sox trade players who could be at least as good as he is now for years to come with nothing to show for it. I want this team to become a dynasty, not make the playoffs one year, then flounder for 10 more years. Lets get it right one time, eh?

Castillo... well, 2nd base sucks right now for the Sox, and no relief is in sight. It is a definite need.

StillMissOzzie
07-01-2003, 01:00 AM
I don't like all of these Florida trades that include Ozzie Guillen coming back as a coach...because then I'd have to change my name!!! Just kidding, I'd love to see him back in pinstripes.

I heard the same Boston report on Dan Patrick's show on the radio in the car that Clarkdog cited earlier about the Marlins hanging on to Lowell for the rest of the year, and (for once) I believe him. But, he also said that Castillo WOULD be available and probably gone by the tading deadline.

Dumbass question du jour - what's OPS?

:gulp:

WhiteSox = Life
07-01-2003, 01:07 AM
OPS is the combination of on-base percentage and slugging percentage.

Here's a site (http://www.pghsports.com/psr0305/03050102.html) on it. I was searching and this popped up. I don't know what it proves but it looked interesting at first glance. If it's not, then disregard.

Hope this helped.

Randar68
07-01-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
OPS is the combination of on-base percentage and slugging percentage.

Here's a site (http://www.pghsports.com/psr0305/03050102.html) on it. I was searching and this popped up. I don't know what it proves but it looked interesting at first glance. If it's not, then disregard.

Hope this helped.

It was created to be a measure of a player's overall offensive ability. Howeve, IMO, it should be more like (1.5 * OBP) + SLG%

doublem23
07-01-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I'm not ready to give up on Crede just yet. The Sox have bigger holes to fill. I'm confident Crede will hit.

Bob

I agree but if the opprotunity arises that Florida will send Lowell here, well then I guess we'll have to admire Crede from afar.

Man, this winning streak is going to my head.

sox_fan_forever
07-01-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Man, this winning streak is going to my head.

You aren't alone. :cool:

WinningUgly!
07-01-2003, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ummmm, because if the Sox think they are going to contend, they need offense now. Lowell still has one more year on his contract IIRC.

You only trade Crede if you get Lowell in return. I love Crede, but Lowell plays similar defense and is a better hitter by a long margin today.

If the Sox are thinking of going for it over the next 2 years, then you can trade Crede if it brings you Lowell, otherwise, no.

Lowell is a FA at the end of the season...
2001: $0.5M
2002: $2.3M
2003: $3.7M
2004: Free Agent

ilsox7
07-01-2003, 01:29 AM
Due to make $3.7 million in the final year of a three-year deal, Lowell was being shopped around in an effort to find a cheaper alternative. But the Marlins cut a big chunk of payroll when they sent Preston Wilson and Charles Johnson to Colorado. Lowell would still just be a five-year arbitration case at season's end, so it looks like Florida will be holding on to one of its most productive, respected and recognizable players.

While his deal is up, he's not a free agent. Again, this is a pipe dream, I think.

Randar68
07-01-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Lowell is a FA at the end of the season...
2001: $0.5M
2002: $2.3M
2003: $3.7M
2004: Free Agent


NOBODY IS SERIOUSLY TALKING ABOUT LOWELL. IT WAS A JOKE!

xil357
07-01-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Not in today's economic market. BTW, all the Lowell talk was bogus, and was started under the premise of "pipedream." You need to read the thread a little more carefully. The Marlins need to free salary to try to sign Lowell. IIRC, Pierre is going to be arbitration eligible and Castillo makes almost 5 million. If the Sox eat most of the money, very little in terms of top prospects will be needed.



What games have you been watching? The NL East is a FAR superior division (with considerably better pitching) than the AL Central has been in years. Playing the Indians and Tigers 19 games each is a lot better than playing Philly, Atlanta, Montreal and the mets (still 35-46 for a last place team)

Of course I know that this thread is a pipe dream. I was just commenting that a trade that was proposed by another poster for Pierre, Castillo and perhaps Lowell, if it ever became a possbile trade discussed by Sox management, would be incredibly bold.

I completely understand that the economics of baseball have changed over the last one or two years. I hope the Sox take advantage of this to be contrarians and that Reinsdorf will open his wallet to get some talented and useful players at reduced prices. It is bold to be a contrarian, especially to commit more money when other teams are cutting payroll. It is smart, but it is bold.

However, if I were the Marlins GM and were asked about a trade to give up two (or three) of my best players who in addition to being productive offensively and play important defensive positions with above-average range and skill, I would ask for the farm, even if I was under payroll pressures. Even with an ownership directive to cut costs, the Marlins GM would be a fool to give up Pierre and Castillo (and perhaps Lowell) for a package made up of one pitching prospect like Rauch, a young #5 starter like Wright, young but marginal talents like Rowand and/or Harris and/or an infielder of marginal defensive ability who is lazy and makes stupid mistakes like Jiminez (and Crede if Lowell is involved).

If I am the Marlins GM, I begin such hypothetical negotiations with the White Sox by asking for Jeremy Reed, Kris Honel, Rowand, Harris and Wright. If Lowell is involved (and it has been reported that the Marlins have a good 3B prospect), I also demand Borchard and Jon Rauch. Would anyone here agree to such a deal? I sure wouldn't. While I believe in re-loading I'm not prepared to sacrifice the farm, either.

As for the NL vs. AL argument, I thought I was preaching to the choir that simply by virtue of the fact that NL pitchers get a virtual "free out" in the #9 spot in the lineup instead of facing the likes of Frank Thomas, Edgar Martinez or Jason Giambi as DHs, NL pitchers are going to look better than AL pitchers. In the vast majority of games, NL pitchers face weaker lineups and can even bypass #8 hitters to pitch to the #9 spot. And spare me about pinch hitters filling the #9 hole. If the players who regularly pinch hit were so great, they would be getting four at bats per game and playing a position (or DH-ing in the AL) and not riding the pine for all but one plate appearance every other game.

I support the elimination of the DH (along with expansion of rosters to 27 players) but until that time the AL will be the stronger league.

I understand that the NL East overall may very well be a stronger division than the AL Central, and I agree that Detroit and Cleveland blow this year, and that KC is a paper tiger. But the Sox also have to regularly play the tough AL East and the tougher AL West, while the NL East doesn't have to play such teams except in limited interleague play and get to feast on teams in NL Central and West like the Padres, the Brewers and the Pirates. Take any team from the AL and they will do better in the NL. Take any team from the NL and they will fare worse in the AL.

And as for the overall interleague records, its much easier for an NL team to play AL ball with the DH, but it is harder for an AL team to play NL ball. Generally the AL team either has to put their DH in the field to keep his bat in the lineup, hurting the defense, or has to sit the DH, weakening the offense. And the NL pitchers have much more experience than the AL pitchers at batting, so the #9 spot is an even bigger hole for AL teams than it is for NL teams. When playing in AL parks the NL team can move their worst fielder who has a good bat to DH and put out their best defensive team.

It is for these reasons that the AL is the tougher league in which to pitch.

With all that being said, however, if I were the Sox GM I would keep Crede at 3B but would fall over myself running towards an opportunity to add Pierre and Castillo for a bunch of mediocrity like Wright, Rowand, Jiminez, Harris, etc.

Randar68
07-01-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by xil357
If I am the Marlins GM, I begin such hypothetical negotiations with the White Sox by asking for Jeremy Reed, Kris Honel, Rowand, Harris and Wright. If Lowell is involved (and it has been reported that the Marlins have a good 3B prospect), I also demand Borchard and Jon Rauch. Would anyone here agree to such a deal? I sure wouldn't. While I believe in re-loading I'm not prepared to sacrifice the farm, either.

[B]

This is why you are not the Marlin's GM. You can ask for anythig you want, but you ain't gonna get it. The market for your players is small, and if everyone knows you are needing to cut payroll, nobody is going to overpay. Just including Reed or Honel in this trade alone is overpaying, regardless of anyone else included in the deal. For just Castillo and Pierre, the Marlins will be lucky to get B prospects unless they are willing to eat the contracts for the remainder of the year (thus defeating the purpose of the trade!).

Despite what you are claiming, you obviously don't have a real good grasp on the economics involved here.


Originally posted by xil357
[B]As for the NL vs. AL argument, I thought I was preaching to the choir that simply by virtue of the fact that NL pitchers get a virtual "free out" in the #9 spot in the lineup instead of facing the likes of Frank Thomas, Edgar Martinez or Jason Giambi as DHs, NL pitchers are going to look better than AL pitchers. In the vast majority of games, NL pitchers face weaker lineups and can even bypass #8 hitters to pitch to the #9 spot. And spare me about pinch hitters filling the #9 hole. If the players who regularly pinch hit were so great, they would be getting four at bats per game and playing a position (or DH-ing in the AL) and not riding the pine for all but one plate appearance every other game.

I support the elimination of the DH (along with expansion of rosters to 27 players) but until that time the AL will be the stronger league.

I understand that the NL East overall may very well be a stronger division than the AL Central, and I agree that Detroit and Cleveland blow this year, and that KC is a paper tiger. But the Sox also have to regularly play the tough AL East and the tougher AL West, while the NL East doesn't have to play such teams except in limited interleague play and get to feast on teams in NL Central and West like the Padres, the Brewers and the Pirates. Take any team from the AL and they will do better in the NL. Take any team from the NL and they will fare worse in the AL.

And as for the overall interleague records, its much easier for an NL team to play AL ball with the DH, but it is harder for an AL team to play NL ball. Generally the AL team either has to put their DH in the field to keep his bat in the lineup, hurting the defense, or has to sit the DH, weakening the offense. And the NL pitchers have much more experience than the AL pitchers at batting, so the #9 spot is an even bigger hole for AL teams than it is for NL teams. When playing in AL parks the NL team can move their worst fielder who has a good bat to DH and put out their best defensive team.

It is for these reasons that the AL is the tougher league in which to pitch.

With all that being said, however, if I were the Sox GM I would keep Crede at 3B but would fall over myself running towards an opportunity to add Pierre and Castillo for a bunch of mediocrity like Wright, Rowand, Jiminez, Harris, etc.

Your original point was in regards to you expecting Castillo and Pierre to drop off at the plate if they went to the AL. It is a ludicrous suggestion on the AL/NL basis only. The AL is definitely a tougher league to pitch in, no arguement, but how in the world does that effect Castillo and Pierre, who, last I checked, weren't pitchers. In reality, the pitching in the NL, and specifically the NL East, is head and shoulders above the pitching in the AL Central. Leadoff hitters get better pitches to hit when they are in front of more and better hitters.

If anything, I would expect Castillo and Pierre to get better and more pitches to hit with a lineup of Thomas and Maggs behind them. Those 2 on the bases, in turn, would increase the likelihood of pitchers making mistakes to Frank and Maggs, as they are think too much about the speed on the bases. I don't think Lowell's number are a coincidence with those 2 guys hitting in front of him.

There is no logical arguement tying the NL/AL factor to a dropoff in production for a #1 and #2 hitter changing leagues.

Also, your last paragraph states the situation exactly, IMO.

xil357
07-01-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
This is why you are not the Marlin's GM. You can ask for anythig you want, but you ain't gonna get it. The market for your players is small, and if everyone knows you are needing to cut payroll, nobody is going to overpay. Just including Reed or Honel in this trade alone is overpaying, regardless of anyone else included in the deal. For just Castillo and Pierre, the Marlins will be lucky to get B prospects unless they are willing to eat the contracts for the remainder of the year (thus defeating the purpose of the trade!).

I so hope you are right. My point is that to get players of this caliber at positions where the Sox have holes for a couple of B prospects or marginal major leaguers would be an absolute coup by KW. From the Marlins perspective, on the basis of talent alone, this would be highway robbery for giving up their #1 and #2 hitters who play important defensive positions.

If I am a GM my job is to get the best possible package of prospects I can get in a trade. I start out asking high knowing that I'll have to come down. But I can't just ignore the possibility that a fellow GM who is desperate might be willing to overpay to fill gaping holes on his team. So I start by asking for his best prospects. Maybe he is a complete idiot and he will bite on my first offer. Worse comes to worse, Castillo leaves as a free agent and I get a compensatory draft pick. The Marlins GM would be doing the Sox GM a favor. As Marlins GM, I would expect to be generously compensated for that favor.

And don't forget that the Marlins themselves are playing .500 ball. Despite the payroll issue, giving up the #1 and #2 hitters who play important defensive positions better have some kind of long-term payoff in terms of grade A prospects.

Originally posted by Randar68
Despite what you are claiming, you obviously don't have a real good grasp on the economics involved here.

I understand that the economics are depressed and I hope that the Sox can use this to their advantage and be willing to increase payroll to take advantage of bargains that will be out there that could fill the holes on the Sox at 2B, SS and CF, especially for players with speed who can get on base.

Originally posted by Randar68
Your original point was in regards to you expecting Castillo and Pierre to drop off at the plate if they went to the AL. It is a ludicrous suggestion on the AL/NL basis only. The AL is definitely a tougher league to pitch in, no arguement, but how in the world does that effect Castillo and Pierre, who, last I checked, weren't pitchers. In reality, the pitching in the NL, and specifically the NL East, is head and shoulders above the pitching in the AL Central. Leadoff hitters get better pitches to hit when they are in front of more and better hitters.

If anything, I would expect Castillo and Pierre to get better and more pitches to hit with a lineup of Thomas and Maggs behind them. Those 2 on the bases, in turn, would increase the likelihood of pitchers making mistakes to Frank and Maggs, as they are think too much about the speed on the bases. I don't think Lowell's number are a coincidence with those 2 guys hitting in front of him.

Let me say again that as a Sox fan I hope this hypothetical deal could take place and that Pierre and Castillo would benefit from having mashers like Frank, Maggs and Lee behind them.

Originally posted by Randar68
There is no logical arguement tying the NL/AL factor to a dropoff in production for a #1 and #2 hitter changing leagues.

Well, if pitching in the AL is tougher, which I believe it is (pitchers have to be tougher to pitch with success in the AL) outside of roadkill like Detroit, Cleveland and Texas, then there is the possibility that such hitters might have trouble adjusting. I would hope that if that happened it would be offset by the fact that they would see more good pitches with power hitters behind them. Even if I am wrong on that, though, they still would have to learn the tendencies and strenghts of a league full of mostly unfamiliar pitchers.

Originally posted by Randar68
Also, your last paragraph states the situation exactly, IMO.

In my original post I was playing devils advocate and bringing up factors to consider. Nevertheless, I still would love to see the Sox get Castillo and Pierre for a B prospect or a #5 starter and MLB throw-ins like Jiminez and Rowand.

I hope there isn't some kind of misunderstanding (or misunderestimating as our esteemed President is fond of saying).