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View Full Version : 2 more reasons I don't like Manuel


gosox41
06-26-2003, 04:30 PM
OK, I'm aware the Sox won today, but I want to be consistent with my criticisms.

1. Manuel can't manage the bullpen. In the bottom of the 8th through the 9th Manuel had Glover first warming up. Then he sat him down and warmed up White. Then Marte joined in so both were warming up. Then White sat down and Koch starts to warm up with Marte.

I can understand getting someone up in the BP with Buehrle's pitch count and the fact that he let up a run in and a guy on base. But why warm up 4 relievers. Pick one, maybe two. Marte is going to get burned out if Manuel keeps overusing him. I don't want to see Koch in the game unless it's for garbage time.

2. The Tinkerer is doing it again. Big game against the first place team in your division. To add to it, there was a tough loss last night. So what does Manuel do? He sits Frank, without a doubt the Sox most productive hitter in favor of the .190 hitting Konerko. Now Frank had Sat. afternoon off in another big game, got the day off on the Monday off day, and gets Thursday off against the division rival.

Does anyone feel like defending Manuel, especially on the second point? How can you not play your best offensive player against the division rivals when they're 5 1/2 games out going into today?

Bob

daveb816
06-26-2003, 04:59 PM
You're dead right about playing Konerko instead of Frank. As Dave Wills correctly pointed out last night, today's game was the biggest of the season. It is NOT a time to try and get Paulie going, no matter what his lifetime stats were against Radke. I'm just glad tat they won in spite of this bad move.

gosox41
06-26-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by daveb816
You're dead right about playing Konerko instead of Frank. As Dave Wills correctly pointed out last night, today's game was the biggest of the season. It is NOT a time to try and get Paulie going, no matter what his lifetime stats were against Radke. I'm just glad tat they won in spite of this bad move.


Maybe Frank should try some stupid base running to keep his name in the line up. Jimenez has a .340 OBP and gets away with at least 5 costly mistakes that I can remember off the top of my head. Imagine all the mistakes Frank must commit with his .420 OBP so he can see his name in the line up against the first place team in the division.

Bob

voodoochile
06-26-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by daveb816
You're dead right about playing Konerko instead of Frank. As Dave Wills correctly pointed out last night, today's game was the biggest of the season. It is NOT a time to try and get Paulie going, no matter what his lifetime stats were against Radke. I'm just glad tat they won in spite of this bad move.

They do it all the time...

:firejerry

NewyorkSoxFan
06-26-2003, 05:08 PM
Ok I am no big JM fan, but the threads that start up after every game are getting ridiculous. First of all Frank has not had a complete day off in 2 weeks. Secondly he does need to get PK some at bats and playing in the field can help him not focus solely on his hitting. He also made some plays today that Hurt would not have made. It takes 25 guys to win, and as a manager he can't just throw PK on the bench and forget about him.

As far as this being the biggest game of the season thats debatable. But when you are 5.5 games out every game is big, but not so big that you are afraid to give these guys a day off.

That being said I do think JM needs to settle into a routine so guys know when they are sitting, but in the infamous words of "Hawk".

"Show me a manager afraid to rest his guys and I will show you a bad manager".

NYSF

voodoochile
06-26-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Ok I am no big JM fan, but the threads that start up after every game are getting ridiculous. First of all Frank has not had a complete day off in 2 weeks. Secondly he does need to get PK some at bats and playing in the field can help him not focus solely on his hitting. He also made some plays today that Hurt would not have made. It takes 25 guys to win, and as a manager he can't just throw PK on the bench and forget about him.

As far as this being the biggest game of the season thats debatable. But when you are 5.5 games out every game is big, but not so big that you are afraid to give these guys a day off.

That being said I do think JM needs to settle into a routine so guys know when they are sitting, but in the infamous words of "Hawk".

"Show me a manager afraid to rest his guys and I will show you a bad manager".

NYSF

Don't you get a little tired of reading that someone is benched one day and then seeing their name in the starting lineup the NEXT FRICKIN' DAY?!??!???!!?!

This is like the third time this has happened THIS YEAR!. The man is clueless. Completely and totally clueless...

:jerry
"You know, whenever I buy the team ice cream, I get myself a scoop too. Today, Mark gets a Banana Split and I get a double vanilla dip in a cup because I didn't screw up this game..."

Paulwny
06-26-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Ok I am no big JM fan, but the threads that start up after every game are getting ridiculous. First of all Frank has not had a complete day off in 2 weeks.
NYSF

Difference in managers, Torre gave Giambi the day off, he was the DH.

konerkopeachy
06-26-2003, 05:23 PM
I'm still shocked that Buehrle ended up with the CG. It's still echoing through my bones as we speak. i'm appalled. i'm agog. dumbstruck. perturbed. agape. aghast.

gosox41
06-26-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Ok I am no big JM fan, but the threads that start up after every game are getting ridiculous. First of all Frank has not had a complete day off in 2 weeks. Secondly he does need to get PK some at bats and playing in the field can help him not focus solely on his hitting. He also made some plays today that Hurt would not have made. It takes 25 guys to win, and as a manager he can't just throw PK on the bench and forget about him.



NYSF

Did Frank play last Saturday against the Cubs. Also he was off Monday. He's a professional athlete, I think he can handle playing 6 games in a week. If concerned about rest, then DH him.

When does Jimenez get his rest?

Bob

dickallen15
06-26-2003, 06:06 PM
Frank also rested last Friday. He has had plenty of time off. There is a stretch of Tampa Bay, Cleveland and Detroit coming up, rest him then. This is baseball, how much rest do you need. Its June, they're in a dome that is 70 degrees, resting him for the biggest game of the year is horrible. They won, but Tinker-Bell needs to go.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-26-2003, 06:23 PM
Manuel is obsessed with getting at-bats for all of his slow-footed DH options. It makes no difference that Frank Thomas is the #1 offensive producer on a team that struggles to score enough runs. Manuel would rather tinker than win.

For the record, Paul Konerko--and any other professional athlete-- would never come clean about any type of degenerative condition. To admit as much is to effectively announce your own retirement. There is NO coming back.

For the record, part 2. Just because Konerko can walk and run (slowly) does not prove he doesn't have a degenerative problem. The way a hitter moves his hips to swing a bat is entirely different than walking or running, and there doesn't need to be "pain" for Konerko's ability to make this movement fall far beneath what is required to be a major league ballplayer trying to hit major league pitching.

Less than 1 percent of 1 percent of the adult population can hit major league pitching. It's looking more and more like Paul Konerko has joined the rest of us in the 99.99 percent who can't. Weeks ago I said that we would know for sure by the all-star game, and I'm sticking to my prediction.

Konerko = Thankgiving turkey with the red thermometer sticking up. Put a fork in him.

pudge
06-26-2003, 06:28 PM
I think Konerko has good career stats vs. Radke, so I'm not going to really jump on JM for today. Maybe JM thought it was a chance to get Konerko going. But really, I agree with being upset that your superstar slugger is not in the lineup in a late-June game against Minnesota. It's nearly July. This is not April. Every game now is going to be important. I hate the attitude of, "There's always time to catch up." But I have grown to accept some of these things about JM.

RKMeibalane
06-26-2003, 06:39 PM
Nothing Manuel does makes sense these days. He benched Frank today because Brad Radke was pitching. Yet, I seem to remember that Frank has faced Radke several times in recent history, including earlier this season. I can understand Manuel's desire to get Konerko some at bats, but doing so against the Minnesota Twins was not appropriate. Manuel needs to be more careful when making day-to-day decisions.

voodoochile
06-26-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Nothing Manuel does makes sense these days. He benched Frank today because Brad Radke was pitching. Yet, I seem to remember that Frank has faced Radke several times in recent history, including earlier this season. I can understand Manuel's desire to get Konerko some at bats, but doing so against the Minnesota Twins was not appropriate. Manuel needs to be more careful when making day-to-day decisions.

Maybe he just needs simpler decisions...

:jerry
"Let's see now, should I watch Oprah or Springer? I just can't wait for prime time, but I never know what to watch then either. I'll try "NYPD Blue" this week, but next week, it's "The Shield". If I could just get this confounded VCR to work. I'll have to ask my son to program it again. No, he did it successfully last time, so this time I'll try my nephew..."

:hitless
"Do I get ice cream afterwards? I never get ice cream anymore since I left Chicago."

:jerry
"Of course you do. You want Chocolate of vanilla? Maybe I'll go crazy and try strawberry this time. What's that you say about 31 flavors? Oh, just think of the different sundaes I could create in a place like that. I could tinker and tinker and tinker. It would be a dream come true. Now where did I put that remote control?"

:firejerry

SoxxoS
06-26-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Manuel is obsessed with getting at-bats for all of his slow-footed DH options. It makes no difference that Frank Thomas is the #1 offensive producer on a team that struggles to score enough runs. Manuel would rather tinker than win.

For the record, Paul Konerko--and any other professional athlete-- would never come clean about any type of degenerative condition. To admit as much is to effectively announce your own retirement. There is NO coming back.

For the record, part 2. Just because Konerko can walk and run (slowly) does not prove he doesn't have a degenerative problem. The way a hitter moves his hips to swing a bat is entirely different than walking or running, and there doesn't need to be "pain" for Konerko's ability to make this movement fall far beneath what is required to be a major league ballplayer trying to hit major league pitching.

Less than 1 percent of 1 percent of the adult population can hit major league pitching. It's looking more and more like Paul Konerko has joined the rest of us in the 99.99 percent who can't. Weeks ago I said that we would know for sure by the all-star game, and I'm sticking to my prediction.

Konerko = Thankgiving turkey with the red thermometer sticking up. Put a fork in him.


By far, the WORST thing about this isn't so much as Konerko's production, as much as the contract he signed over the offseason. Not only does his .188 avg affect the team, which effects us (the fans) his 16 Million remaining on his contract also effects us. That is 8 Million uncle Jerry could have put towards something else next year...and God knows we will need it.

RKMeibalane
06-26-2003, 06:55 PM
I just took a look at Franks stats versus other pitchers throughout the Major Leagues. He is 0-9 in his career against Kerry Wood. Is Wood scheduled to pitch this weekend? It should be interesting to see if Frank is benched again.

BTW, I had an interesting thought about this situation. Frank has been the Sox most productive hitter this season, especially over the past month. I wonder if Ken Williams is the real villain behind this plot to keep Frank out of games. He has never liked Frank much. In fact, KW wanted Frank out of Chicago this past off-season. PHG has speculated in the past that Williams is the reason for some of Manuel's tinkering. I wonder if that's the case again.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-26-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
...I wonder if Ken Williams is the real villain behind this plot to keep Frank out of games. He has never liked Frank much. In fact, KW wanted Frank out of Chicago this past off-season. PHG has speculated in the past that Williams is the reason for some of Manuel's tinkering. I wonder if that's the case again.

If we're to believe the "reliable" rumor about Kenny being confronted by Einhorn for interfering with Manuel's decisionmaking, there could be some merit to the notion that Williams is the cause of Manuel's tinkering. Of course this same "reliable" rumor claimed Williams was stepping down any day and nothing of the sort has occurred.

As Manuel's nonsensical public comments and ridiculous tinkering has now continued almost non-stop for 2-1/2 seasons, I'm pretty sure it is Manuel himself who is responsible for his own actions. In fact now I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't Ron Schueler (back in '98-'00) who handed Manuel a lineup card with nine names written in ink and said, "Use this until I tell you otherwise." Once Schueler was out of the GM seat, the tinkering began in earnest.

RKMeibalane
06-26-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If we're to believe the "reliable" rumor about Kenny being confronted by Einhorn for interfering with Manuel's decisionmaking, there could be some merit to the notion that Williams is the cause of Manuel's tinkering. Of course this same "reliable" rumor claimed Williams was stepping down any day and nothing of the sort has occurred.

As Manuel's nonsensical public comments and ridiculous tinkering has now continued almost non-stop for 2-1/2 seasons, I'm pretty sure it is Manuel himself who is responsible for his own actions. In fact now I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't Ron Schueler (back in '98-'00) who handed Manuel a lineup card with nine names written in ink and said, "Use this until I tell you otherwise." Once Schueler was out of the GM seat, the tinkering began in earnest.

About a year ago, there was a rumor circulating that Schueler ordered former pitching coach Nardi Contreras not to work with Kip Wells or Jon Garland on their mechanics. I think Ron probably knew that Nardi wasn't a good pitching coach, so he decided to protect his pitching prospects by keeping Contreras away from them. If this is true, then we know why Garland and Wells never needed arm surgery.

MRKARNO
06-26-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Frank also rested last Friday. He has had plenty of time off. There is a stretch of Tampa Bay, Cleveland and Detroit coming up, rest him then. This is baseball, how much rest do you need. Its June, they're in a dome that is 70 degrees, resting him for the biggest game of the year is horrible. They won, but Tinker-Bell needs to go.

I'd rather see the sox assemble a long winning streak in that stretch of time

TornLabrum
06-26-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
First of all Frank has not had a complete day off in 2 weeks. \

Looking at my schedule, he and the entire team had a day off Monday. Did he need to stay out of the hot sun today? Oh, wait! They played in a DOME!

kermittheefrog
06-26-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Manuel is obsessed with getting at-bats for all of his slow-footed DH options. It makes no difference that Frank Thomas is the #1 offensive producer on a team that struggles to score enough runs. Manuel would rather tinker than win.


You mean he's obsessed with getting at bats for Paul Konerko. PK and Frank got nearly all the 1B/DH ABs until it was past being painfully obvious something was wrong with Konerko. So Daubach takes PK's job and now PK gets to take some of Thomas' ABs. Stupid, just stupid. PK can't hit, let him rot on the pine.

steff
06-27-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If we're to believe the "reliable" rumor about Kenny being confronted by Einhorn for interfering with Manuel's decisionmaking, there could be some merit to the notion that Williams is the cause of Manuel's tinkering. Of course this same "reliable" rumor claimed Williams was stepping down any day and nothing of the sort has occurred.



Oh why don't you just come right out and shoot the messenger for Pete's sake! :D:

I didn't start the rumor.. just confirmed I had heard the same thing.

FWIW, the Sox are rumored to be talking to Sindey... so I called him and he said that they were but that Kenny is nowhere in the mix of the conversation. Now.. why on earth would the "GM" not be in on trade talks..? :?:

TornLabrum
06-27-2003, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Oh why don't you just come right out and shoot the messenger for Pete's sake! :D:

I didn't start the rumor.. just confirmed I had heard the same thing.

FWIW, the Sox are rumored to be talking to Sindey... so I called him and he said that they were but that Kenny is nowhere in the mix of the conversation. Now.. why on earth would the "GM" not be in on trade talks..? :?:

Because they realize that their GM is Prof. Chaos?

steff
06-27-2003, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Because they realize that their GM is Prof. Chaos?

Yuk, yuk, yuk...

They knew that 2 years ago!!

PaleHoseGeorge
06-27-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Oh why don't you just come right out and shoot the messenger for Pete's sake! :D:

I didn't start the rumor.. just confirmed I had heard the same thing.

Actually, I was referring to the original source of the rumor who never posts here. "Reliable" is the exact word somebody used at the time for explaining why this rumor was published as though it was fact.

In other words, we're cool. :cool:

gosox41
06-27-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Yuk, yuk, yuk...

They knew that 2 years ago!!

Yet they still kept him around. Says a lot about the way the Sox work.

Bob

gosox41
06-27-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by steff3603
Oh why don't you just come right out and shoot the messenger for Pete's sake! :D:

I didn't start the rumor.. just confirmed I had heard the same thing.

FWIW, the Sox are rumored to be talking to Sindey... so I called him and he said that they were but that Kenny is nowhere in the mix of the conversation. Now.. why on earth would the "GM" not be in on trade talks..? :?:

Are you talking about Sidney Ponson? Who is in on the talks, Fontaine or Hemond?

Bob